₦airaland Forum

After this, let any Muslim come to say that the Qur'an is perfectly preserved!


Out of cowardice, they must keep quiet and repeat falsehood to themselves until it feels real

Ohyoudidnt:
Many rabbi priests recognize that as Judaism evolved, changes were introduced into the Torah wording for a myriad of reasons
The eighteen alterations of Scripture, listed in the classic work Ochlah W’Ochlah

If this is true then Allah is False!

Ohyoudidnt:
Going by your submissions on years when persons existed are you implying it is impossible to authenticate information due to large time difference between them?

Do you submit that there was absolutely no means to investigate and validate?

It is easy to judge.
Who should be the best and most accurate between Ibn Abbas and Zakir Naik as a historical source about prophet Mohammed?

Can my report on Mohammed be more accurate than report from Aisha?

Ohyoudidnt:
Allah making reference to a Torah is the original given to Moses or you think Allah is not aware of all things that happan?

This is the crux of the whole matter:
There is no iota of evidence to believe that Allah gave the Qur'an to Mohammed. Every evidence shows that the Qur'an is the writing of 6th century people feigning spiritual authority.
1. Islam depends and claim to build on the prophets from earlier scriptures
2. There is no previous scripture that claimed verbatim speech of God
3. The style of writing of the Qur'an is completely different from the earlier scriptures
4. Errors that cannot possibly come from God exist in the Qur'an (Scientific, Mathematical, Historical etc)
5. There is NOT one evidence apart from the claim of Mohammed that he was visited by Jibril or got any information from God
6. Characters alien to the God of the earlier scriptures are present in the Qur'an such as Halal prostitution (Mutah) and Halal love-vendor business for Muslim men.
7. Usually, the God of the scriptures before Islam would authenticate His prophets with Signs such as Miracles or Prophecies for which Mohammed wasn't given any.
8. Usually the God of the earlier scriptures spoke directly or by inspiration to their prophets and not through Angels unlike Mohammed.
9. The Character of Mohammed is terrible as a human being not to speak of a prophet. A man that can marry the wife of his adopted son is not respectable even in this perverse generation
10. The author feigning to be Allah often forget that he is supposed to be speaking in first person. Surah Al-Fathia is a good example.

Ohyoudidnt:
As I had submitted in a previous post distortion isn't just restricted to textual variations but also includes implementation as the Jewish <priests > attempted to do in hiding a part of the law.

No problem!
I agree with you.

Even you Muslims do exactly that .
Eg.
-Allah says pray three times a day, you pray five times
-Allah says do Mutah, you made Mutah haram
-Allah says the The Jews and Christians take their Rabbis and Monks as Lords instead of Allah AND the Messiah you say no
-Allah says he and his angels pray on Mohammed, you say no that he didn't say that
Just a few of what you Muslims do on your Qur'an.

We can in like manner after this compare the Hafs Qur'an with the Warsh Qur'an.





You will then conclude that Islamic scholars have told lies all along that the Qur'an was perfectly preserved even up to the diacritical marks

Ohyoudidnt:
1. The prophet himself couldn't read

2. One who could read but had incomplete recall of the law could be deceived.

Concealment of the law refers to the act of intentionally withholding or hiding legal information that is relevant to a case or situation.

It amounts to fraudulent concealment when an individual hides information with the intent to deceive another party.

Distortion of the law, on the other hand, involves altering or misrepresenting legal principles or facts to serve a particular agenda.

Now was the law misrepresented when it was concealed?

In Surah Al-Ma’idah, verse 13, the term تَحْرِيف (tahrif) refers to the act of distorting or altering the words of the Scripture. This distortion can involve changing the meanings of the texts or taking them out of their proper context. The verse highlights that due to their breach of covenant, certain groups have engaged in this manipulation, leading to a misunderstanding or misrepresentation of divine guidance.

The concept of distortion in Islam is not limited to textual changes; it also encompasses broader theological implications regarding faith and practice within Islam. It serves as a warning against altering divine messages and emphasizes the importance of preserving authenticity in religious teachings.

In other words, going with your definitions, the concealment or distortion of the scripture by the Jews was done orally and not textually.
If the concealment or distortion of the Torah was done textually, Allah would have been wrong for confirmation of a book that had been corrupted.


Like you said:
"The concept of distortion in Islam is not limited to textual changes; it also encompasses broader theological implications regarding faith and practice within Islam. It serves as a warning against altering divine messages and emphasizes the importance of preserving authenticity in religious teachings."
Allah would be correct for warning the Jews against orally or verbally distorting their scripture

Ohyoudidnt:
Looking to additional historical finding, is Iraeneus in his book Against Heresies lying where he presents Ezra as an essential figure who restored and preserved Jewish law through divine inspiration after it had been lost or corrupted during exile?


Will continue later please...

Irenaeus was born around 130 AD and died around 202 AD while Ezra existed about 458 BC. The gap between them is 637 years.

Thus without other historical source dating to closer to the time of Ezra, such information you gave (if true) is valueless as a historical source. This is why Ibn Abbas would be a better historical source about Mohammed than Zakir Naik.

Almost all we know about Ezra are in two ancient historical books of Ezra and Nehemiah and neither remotely gave any hint of him restoring the Torah. Ezra read and explained the Torah to the people, he did not write the Torah.


BUT
If (for the sake of argument) let's say your claim is true, then
1. If Ezra did his job perfectly and reproduced the Torah accurately, then Allah in the Qur'an is accurate about confirming the Torah
2. If Ezra did his job imperfectly and reproduced the Torah inaccurately, then Allah in the Qur'an is inaccurate and in error about confirming the Torah.

To confirm a book is to attest to the accuracy and validity of that book.

Ohyoudidnt:
If we may work towards concluding here.

We find a critical moment wherethe Israelites have expressed their lack of faith and trust in God’s promises. After sending spies into Canaan, they received a report that filled them with fear and doubt about entering the Promised Land. This led to widespread rebellion against Moses and Aaron, as well as against God Himself.

They doubted God’s ability to deliver them into Canaan despite witnessing numerous miracles during their exodus from Egypt. Their complaints included wishing they had died in Egypt or in the wilderness rather than facing what they perceived as insurmountable challenges in Canaan (Numbers 14:2-4).

Following the prayer of Moses; God responds favorably to Moses’ plea by affirming that He has forgiven them but also reiterates that those who rebelled will not enter the Promised Land (Numbers 14:20-23).

The judgment would have been a TOTAL disinheritance of the Children of Israel

Ohyoudidnt:
Do you not see that those who will not enter are those that persistently disbelieve in God and his power? Of what use is God's forgiveness for unbelievers.

Actually only two people were spared of those who left Egypt (Joshua and Caleb). It was because these two were exception to the others in faithfulness to God. The rest died in the wilderness.

Num 14:30
"Doubtless you shall not come into the land, concerning which I swore to make you dwell therein, except Caleb the son of Jephunneh, and Joshua the son of Nun."

Even, Moses was not spared of God's judgement as he was judged by God and did NOT enter the promised land

Numbers 20:12:
"But the Lord said to Moses and Aaron, 'Because you did not trust in me enough to honor me as holy in the sight of the Israelites, you will not bring this community into the land I give them.'"

Ohyoudidnt:
While you answer can you explain the perceived view of what the Jews attempted to do in hiding the part of the Torah on stoning?

I'm not sure I understand what you mean here.

Ohyoudidnt:
Your observation is noted though you pick your own example to illustrate perhaps you could have made an exact reference.

Not to engage in futility I ask what it means when the Jews mentioned lighter punishment and cover the text in the Torah saying the punishment due to the fornicator according to the Torah?

It is called concealment of the law.

Meaning that the written law was properly stated but the full intent was undisclosed to those without the book.

Even you agree that they covered the text of the Torah and NOT that they rewrote their Torah.

Ohyoudidnt:
Did Ezra play any role is restoring the Torah?

No sir. He read the Torah and the prophets and explained them to the people.

Neh 8:1-8
"And all the people gathered themselves together as one man into the street that was before the water gate; and they spoke to Ezra the scribe to bring the book of the law of Moses, which the LORD had commanded to Israel. And Ezra the priest brought the law before the congregation both of men and women, and all that could hear with understanding, on the first day of the seventh month. And he read therein before the street that was before the water gate from the morning until midday, before the men and the women, and those that could understand; and the ears of all the people were attentive to the book of the law. And Ezra the scribe stood on a pulpit of wood, which they had made for the purpose; and beside him stood Mattithiah, and Shema, and Anaiah, and Urijah, and Hilkiah, and Maaseiah, on his right hand; and on his left hand, Pedaiah, and Mishael, and Malchiah, and Hashum, and Hashbadana, Zechariah, and Meshullam. And Ezra opened the book in the sight of all the people; (for he was above all the people; ) and when he opened it, all the people stood up: And Ezra blessed the LORD, the great God. And all the people answered, Amen, Amen, with lifting up their hands: and they bowed their heads, and worshipped the LORD with their faces to the ground. Also Jeshua, and Bani, and Sherebiah, Jamin, Akkub, Shabbethai, Hodijah, Maaseiah, Kelita, Azariah, Jozabad, Hanan, Pelaiah, and the Levites, caused the people to understand the law: and the people stood in their place. So they read in the book in the law of God distinctly, and gave the sense, and caused them to understand the reading."


Ezra played a role in rebuilding the destroyed temple. Ezra is not even regarded as a Prophet whether minor or major .

Ezra was an ordinary Priest who helped to interpret the scripture.

Ohyoudidnt:
Was the Torah commonly transmitted orally?

The scriptures of the Jews were never transmitted orally like the Qur'an. They were always written. People memorised parts of it but it was always about the written scriptures.

Deu 17:18-19
"And it shall be, when he sits on the throne of his kingdom, that he shall write him a copy of this law in a book out of that which is before the priests the Levites: And it shall be with him, and he shall read therein all the days of his life: that he may learn to fear the LORD his God, to keep all the words of this law and these statutes, to do them:"

Ohyoudidnt:
Could any other person supposed to know the Torah not dictate the Torah when it's hard copy was lost?

Do answer and respond to my quote quoted in relation to

Who told you that the Torah was lost that necessitated it to be reproduced from memory? It never ever happened sir: it is at best a wishful thinking by you.

Are you admitting that this was what happened when the Qur'an of Mohammed and that of Abubaker and also that of Uthman disappeared?

Ohyoudidnt:
Pardon my missing that.

We will discuss soon. Let's tidy up and properly end the thread.

Okay!

..

Ohyoudidnt:
Thanks.

While you wait kindly pull out the different arabic words used in place of one another

As if I was the one who translated the Arabic script.

The differences are highlighted in RED sir!


It's so clear even the blind will see them: Didn't you see the words highlighted in RED?

seunowa:
God bless u bro in the name of Christ Jesus our Savior

Amen my sister!

The truth always set free those who want it

Ohyoudidnt:
My life is not centred on discussing with you on nairaland.

We cannot conclude the other thread without exactly agreeing can we or agreeing to perpetually disagree which I won't subscribe to without putting good response to your misunderstanding.

My problem with you is this:

A simple statement like:
If (for instance) the Qur'an says,
"Allah eat food and drank water!"

You will say:
No! It doesn't say that!
You don't know Arabic!

You will then say everything except what the plain text is truly saying.

This is my issue with you

Ohyoudidnt:
I am very bemused. Be patient please. I take it one at a time. The fuss in the images you attached are very funny so in time we will address the humour

No problem sir.
I am waiting 'cause I don't see the humour in it

Ohyoudidnt:
When you speak of a document and leave out parts of it what is written what is it called?

When a document is written based on what you say haven omitted some parts what will this be?

Do you not know about Ezra rewriting the Torah from memory?

Which Ezra?

Is he the one the Jews say is the son of Allah according to the Qur'an?

Ohyoudidnt:
Indeed I am just noticing this on seeing Everyday247s mention.

In due course it will be addressed once you confirm that discussions are completed at


You will notice I have only responded to a part of your response in a bid to clarify your misunderstanding the hadith and Quran verses in context regarding reference to former scripture.

We can conclude the other thread.

I am surprised you are just seeing this sha!

Everyday247:
But it's kinda strange how they will be criticizing Christianity and then recommending a more brutal alternative.😕

The major problem of Islam is LIES.
They have a form of lies for themselves
AND
Another form of lies for others



Thank God for the information age: it is actually extremely difficult to tell lies nowadays.

They were hiding the lies under the language of Arabic thinking that few people would be able to read and comprehend it only for the age of the INTERNET and AI to kick off the ground powerfully.

Ohyoudidnt:
The response from the Jews—that they would disgrace and flog the offenders—indicates an attempt to downplay or alter what they believed was a more severe punishment prescribed by their own religious texts.



Tell me if the process where the jew placed his hand to cover a part of the Torah wasn't an attempt to hide the complete ruling/guidance is not a form of distortion?

distort verb [T] (AFFECT)

to change something so that it is false or wrong, or no longer means what it was intended to mean

to change or affect something, especially in a way that makes it worse

By hiding away from view a part of the law does it have any effect on the law?

Then the doctored Torah was magically restored when someone else read it?

SMH!


Did you not ask me to post the Sanaa Vs Hafs Qur'an?


You are definitely scared!

Have a nice day

Everyday247:
Dey very careful oh.

Who wouldn't die one day?

The lies of Islam are just too much: now, they have convinced themselves that the lies are reality

Mr Ohyoudidnt,
This thread has been open for you since morning for you o: I can understand that other Muslims will run away from this eye opener but it seems you forgot you were the one who gave the challenge to me or are you scared too?

Ohyoudidnt:
Allah is extremely far from wrong. You are severely wrong.

It is appropriate to make some effort to clarify your misunderstanding.

In Quran Surah 7:
155. And Moses chose from his people seventy men for Our appointment. When the tremor shook them, he said, “My Lord, had You willed, You could have destroyed them before, and me too. Will you destroy us for what the fools among us have done? This is but Your test—with it You misguide whomever You will, and guide whomever You will. You are our Protector, so forgive us, and have mercy on us. You are the Best of Forgivers.”

156. “And inscribe for us goodness in this world, and in the Hereafter. We have turned to You.” He said, “My punishment—I inflict it upon whomever I will, but My mercy encompasses all things. I will specify it for those who act righteously and practice regular charity, and those who believe in Our signs.”

157. Those who follow the Messenger, the Unlettered Prophet, whom they find mentioned in the Torah and the Gospel in their possession. He directs them to righteousness, and deters them from evil, and allows for them all good things, and prohibits for them wickedness, and unloads the burdens and the shackles that are upon them. Those who believe in him, and respect him, and support him, and follow the light that came down with him—these are the successful

You read mention of those who follow the unlettered prophet whom they find mentioned in the Torah. These are those who find and acknowledge the mention in the Torah.

Now let’s review the hadith.
The hadith in question, recorded in Sunan Abi Dawud, presents a significant interaction between the Prophet Muhammad (ﷺ) and a group of Jews regarding the punishment for fornication as prescribed in their scripture, the Torah.


In this hadith, Ibn ‘Umar recounts an incident where some Jews approached the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) to discuss a case of fornication involving one man and one woman from their community. The Prophet’s inquiry about what their scriptures dictated regarding stoning reveals his role as a mediator and judge in matters of law. The response from the Jews—that they would disgrace and flog the offenders—indicates an attempt to downplay or alter what they believed was a more severe punishment prescribed by their own religious texts.

Abd Allah b. Salam, who was a prominent Jewish convert to Islam, intervened by assersting that the Torah indeed contained instructions for stoning as punishment for adultery. His statement highlights two critical points: first, that there was an existing scriptural basis for stoning within Jewish law; second, it underscores his commitment to truthfulness and justice in contrast to what he perceived as dishonesty from his former co-religionists.

The act described where one of the Jews covered up the verse on stoning while reading from the Torah illustrates an intentional distortion or manipulation of their sacred text. This behavior raises questions about integrity and adherence to divine commandments among those who claim to follow them. It also serves as a commentary on how individuals may selectively interpret or present religious texts to suit their agendas.

Then in Quran 2:
40. O Children of Israel! Remember My blessings which I bestowed upon you, and fulfill your pledge to Me, and I will fulfill My pledge to you, and fear Me.
41. And believe in what I revealed, confirming what is with you; and do not be the first to deny it; and do not exchange My revelations for a small price; and be conscious of Me.
42. And do not mix truth with falsehood, and do not conceal the truth while you know.

Do you not see what is said in the verse following Quran 2:41 that you quoted not mixing truth with falsehood and concealing the truth while they know from 2:42??.
Refer back to the attempt to conceal by covering with the hand at saying otherwise.

Does Quran 2:89
89. And when a scripture came to them from God, confirming what they have—although previously they were seeking victory against those who disbelieved—but when there came to them what they recognized, they disbelieved in it. So God’s curse is upon the disbelievers.

Despite knowing they disbelieve.


Then
101. And when there came to them a messenger from God, confirming what they had, a faction of those who were given the Book threw the Book of God behind their backs, as if they do not know.
102. And they followed what the devils taught during the reign of Solomon. It was not Solomon who disbelieved, but it was the devils who disbelieved. They taught the people witchcraft and what was revealed in Babylon to the two angels Harut and Marut. They did not teach anybody until they had said, “We are a test, so do not lose faith.” But they learned from them the means to cause separation between man and his wife. But they cannot harm anyone except with God's permission. And they learned what would harm them and not benefit them. Yet they knew that whoever deals in it will have no share in the Hereafter. Miserable is what they sold their souls for, if they only knew.

You clearly see that some of of those who were given the book threw the Book of God behind their backs, as if they do not know.

I believe you understand what is meant by throwing the Book behind their backs means in this verse. It means disbelieving.

Two things
1. Allah's word is worthless in the light of what Muslims want to believe.
Why do you think Allah will confirm a scripture that has been doctored?
2. Did the hadith say that the Jews changed their scripture to remove "stoning" or they orally concealed the command of stoning?

Ohyoudidnt:
It seems you never read or understand Quran 5

12 Allah made a covenant with the Children of Israel and appointed twelve leaders from among them and ˹then˺ said, “I am truly with you. If you establish prayer, pay alms-tax, believe in My messengers, support them, and lend to Allah a good loan, I will certainly forgive your sins and admit you into Gardens under which rivers flow. And whoever among you disbelieves afterwards has truly strayed from the Right Way.” (This verse is included to aid your understanding of the following hoping you concede that the Torah is amongst books given/sent to the israelites)

But for breaking their covenant We condemned them and hardened their hearts. They distorted the words of the Scripture and neglected a portion of what they had been commanded to uphold
You ˹O Prophet˺ will always find deceit on their part, except for a few. But pardon them and bear with them. Indeed, Allah loves the good-doers.

Even within Numbers 14 you see mention of exemption of Caleb.

Is it untrue that Israelites and people often fall back to old sins and even add new ones?

Sometimes I wonder if the person behind the keyboard is dumb or irresponsibly stupid to discard the words of his Allah and prophet so swiftly

Let us assume for the sake of argument that the Jews distorted their scripture?
According to the hadith of your prophet below, how: is it by rewriting their scripture?
Sunan Abi Dawud 4446
Ibn ‘Umar said:
some jews came to the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) and mentioned to him that a man and a women of their number had committed fornication. The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) asked them: What do you find in the Torah about stoning? They replied: We disgrace them and they should be flogged. ‘Abd Allah b. Salam said: You lie; it contains (instruction for) stoning. So they brought the Torah and spread it out, and one of them put his hand over the verse of stoning and read what preceded it and what followed it. ‘Abd Allah b. Salam said to him: Lift your hand. When he did so, the verse of stoning was seen to be in it. They then said: He has spoken the truth, Muhammad, the verse of stoning is in it. The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) then gave command regarding them, and they were stoned to death. ‘Abd Allah b. ‘Umar said: I saw the man leaning on the woman protecting her from the stones.

Secondly, you accuse your Allah of Ignorance as you know better than him as Allah says
Qur'an 7:157
Those who follow the messenger, the Prophet who can neither read nor write, whom they will find described in the Torah and the Gospel (which are) with them. He will enjoin on them that which is right and forbid them that which is wrong. He will make lawful for them all good things and prohibit for them only the foul; and he will relieve them of their burden and the fetters that they used to wear. Then those who believe in him, and honour him, and help him, and follow the light which is sent down with him: they are the successful.

Qur'an 2:41
And believe in what I reveal, confirming the revelation which is with you, and be not the first to reject Faith therein, nor sell My Signs for a small price; and fear Me, and Me alone.

Qur'an 2:89
And when there cometh unto them a scripture from Allah, confirming that in their possession - though before that they were asking for a signal triumph over those who disbelieved - and when there cometh unto them that which they know (to be the truth) they disbelieve therein. The curse of Allah is on disbelievers.

Qur'an 2:101
And when there cometh unto them a messenger from Allah, confirming that which they possess, a party of those who have received the Scripture fling the Scripture of Allah behind their backs as if they knew not,


Please confirm that Allah is wrong with these passages above !?

Does it make sense for Allah to confirm that which is distorted?

Ohyoudidnt:
Thank you genius. When God forgives the consequence of the sin is not applied in the afterlife even if certain sins or wrong doing have physical effects that cannot be avoided or reversed.

If you had answered my previous questions, you wouldn't show how dumb you are with this. I will put it in a simpler way.
If you committed a rape against a lady, how can you payback even if Allah forgives you?
If you committed a murder against a man, how can you payback even if Allah forgives you?

You see how you needed to be treated as a toddler to comprehend simple spiritual things

Ohyoudidnt:
For which Sin did Moses pray for forgiveness for? Did they not commit other sins after? Did he let them fall back to Egyptian captivity? Why is Caleb exempted according to your bible?

Moses pleaded for the consequence that would have befallen then for their sin.

Ohyoudidnt:
Funny you have repeatedly stated in our discussions that Allah is not Yahweh and I have ignored it since I never say Yahweh and Allah are the same.

Is Allah YAHWEH the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob?

Ohyoudidnt:
Proverbs 13:24, states “He who spares the rod hates his son, but he who loves him disciplines him diligently.

You also fail to comprehend that the relationship between Allah and mankind is not of father and child as embedded in your belief.

I have explained consequence of sin and how a forgiven sin isn't punished in the afterlife despite a physical consequence in the earthy life early on in this reply.

So, why is Allah making Jews and Christians ransom for your punishment of sin in hell?

Ohyoudidnt:
Fundamentally without the command of Allah will the clay be a living human Adam?

As long as Clay is not Adam, it is a failure of the Quran.

Ohyoudidnt:
The evidence of Jesus having siblings is not specifically showing they are children born by Mary his mother. Do you not understand that?

There's ample literature about Muhammad pbuh's birth. We do not any where make reference to him having any biological siblings you have submitted that Jesus has these and I ask you to show inevitable proof of this.

Show me evidence according to Allah or your prophet and stop breying like a donkey.

Ohyoudidnt:
I see you edit your argument to Sana'a and warsh no more mention of hafs. Well it's well over time.
I believe you now properly understand the conceptual translation to may in statements regarding Allah forgiving sins.

I have made your post for you: waiting for your silly response as usual.

If you need difference between Hafs and Warsh after your response , I will give you.


Muslims can lie for Africa...even to themselves.
The vast majority of Muslims believe that only one quran exist.

Mr Ohyoudidnt ,
As promised. the table is set.

There are no way textual variants do not occur when manuscripts are copied manually, sometimes you have word omission, word addition, word interjection, word substitutions etc.

Why did the islamic scholars have to tell such blatant lies to the Muslims and everyone else that the Quran is perfectly preserved upt to the diacritical marks?



And this is just comparing the Hafs Quran with the existing copy of the Sanaa Quran.

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.,

. .

..

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Here is a Tabulated list of differences as compiled by www.wikiislam.com on the sanaa manuscript