₦airaland Forum

honesttalk21:
The claim you make presupposes its own conclusion: that multiple distinct versions of the Qur'an existed and that Uthman chose a flawed one while destroying superior alternatives. There is no historical evidence supporting the idea of competing Qur'anic canons acting as rival scriptures. While early variations in recitation are recognized, there are no indications of competing theological texts.

So,
1. Where is the verse of Rajam in your Qur'an
2. Where is the verse of breastfeeding adult men in your Qur'an

why, the verses existed till Mohammed died!

honesttalk21:
The seven aḥruf were not separate books; they represented permissible modes within a single revelation and losing these modes does not equate to losing content. Your question shows misinterpretation and understanding the nature of the seven aḥruf. No classical authority has outlined Seven distinct books,
Seven unique sets of surahs, Seven theologically separate revelations.

The aḥruf refer to permissible modes of recitation within a given revelation. Losing modes does not equate to losing content. If there were six complete Qur’ans, where are their manuscripts? Where are their lists of surahs? Where are their theological distinctions? Where are the communities that support them? They simply do not exist.

The narrations about stoning and breastfeeding are openly preserved in ḥadīth literature and addressed through the doctrine of abrogation; rejecting this theology does not prove textual collapse. The report about the sheep consuming it is weak, and even if accepted, Qur'anic preservation was widespread through mass memorization alongside written fragments not reliant on a single document.

The fact that the verse of stoning and breastfeeding were in the Qur'an till the death of Mohammed is Open for all to see.

Who removed it?

honesttalk21:
No Uthmanic original survives, but neither do any originals from other ancient scriptures. What we have are early manuscripts that show a common consonantal framework across different regions, without alternate surahs, missing chapters, or rival doctrinal Qur'ans. Standardization happened early, gained rapid acceptance, and left no competing textual families behind. That is the historical record. Whether one sees it as divine preservation or political consolidation is a matter of theological interpretation rather than a verifiable historical conclusion.

Read my lips as I didn't ask you for the copy of the Qur'an of Uthman. What I asked for was copies of copies!

Please provide one if it exist!

honesttalk21:
If Uthman froze errors, provide the rival Qur'an with or without errors he supposedly erased. If six ahruf were lost, pinpoint the missing revelation not just lost pronunciations. If standardization equals corruption, then no ancient scripture exists under your criteria.

All you needed to do was to tell me the isnad of chains of writing the Qur'an
From Mohammed, to Abubakar, to Uthman, to.....

And I've asked tou a thousand times.

Is the Qur'an of Abubakar identical to the Qur'an of Uthman?

FxMasterz:
Thank you for shedding more lights on this.

I am waiting for Antichristian's version, and the versions of our many Muslim friends on Nairaland.

Honesttalk21 Antichristian AbulAbbas JimRohn may tell us that the Arabic of the word BIRD actually mean Not Bird

Yorubastardz:
My aunt who was barren adopted a boy in 2002

Fast forward to 2025 last June.
This boy turned my aunt life upside down

He Insults her like mad. Disrespect her in front of visitors. Scold at her

This got me thinking if Adoption is worth it
Because the boy clearly don't feel connection

And during some of their outburst
He will curse her and her family.. Omo

After seeing this same pattern in 3 families
I have concluded ADOPTION IS A NO NO!!!!

So, sorry please.

The boy may have a mental problem inherited from the biological parent.
Sometimes , the problem is a spiritual inheritance that is following the boy.

Some people are lucky with adoption especially if the background of the baby is sound.

Not withstanding , the first point of call is to rule out Schizophrenia at the hospital. The situation may still be salvageable

FxMasterz:
Muslims will Become Green Birds in Paradise.

Antichristian, is the Hadith really true? Do you believe you'll become a green bird in paradise? Do you really want to become a green bird? Will the true God really turn you in a bird? What is His purpose for turning you into a green bird really? Please TenQ, can you help shed more lights into this?


The Hadith is Sahih.

Sahih Muslim 1887:

It has been narrated on the authority of Masruq Who said: We asked 'Abdullah about the Qur'anic verse: "Think not of those who are slain in Allah's way as dead. Nay, they are alive, finding their sustenance in the presence of their Lord.." (iii. 169).

He said: We asked the meaning of the verse (from the Holy Prophet) who said:

The souls, of the martyrs live in the bodies of green birds who have their nests in chandeliers hung from the throne of the Almighty. They eat the fruits of Paradise from wherever they like and then nestle in these chandeliers.

Once their Lord cast a glance at them and said: Do ye want anything? They said: What more shall we desire? We eat the fruit of Paradise from wherever we like. Their Lord asked them the same question thrice. When they saw that they will continue to be asked and not left (without answering the question). they said: O Lord, we wish that Thou mayest return our souls to our bodies so that we may be slain in Thy way once again. When He (Allah) saw that they had no need, they were left (to their joy in heaven).


A Message for all Muslims. Please think deeply about you becoming a bird in paradise, and consider if truly, this Islam you so much believe in is the truth of God Almighty.

I will appreciate your response to my questions. They're not just for those people I mentioned alone.

Thank you, and may God lead us all into the Way, the Truth and the Life. May your eyes be opened.

Your are very correct for both Muslim children who died amd martyrs

Here is another hadith

The Martyr

Jami` at-Tirmidhi 1641
Narrated Ka'b bin Malik:
From his father that the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) said: "The souls of the martyrs are in green birds, suspended from the fruit of Paradise, or the trees of Paradise."
[Abu 'Eisa said:] This Hadith is Hasan Sahih.


The Muslim Babies

Sahih Muslim 2662 b
'A'isha, the mother of the believers, reported that a child died and I said:
There is happiness for this child who is a bird from amongst the birds of Paradise. Thereupon Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) said: Don't you know that Allah created the Paradise and He created the Hell and He created the dwellers for this (Paradise) and the denizens for this (Hell)?


Other Muslims

Sunan Ibn Majah 4271
It was narrated from ‘Abdur-Rahman bin Ka’b Al-Ansari that his father used to narrate that the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) said:
“The believer’s soul is a bird that eats from the trees of Paradise, until it will be returned to his body on the Day when he is resurrected.”

https://sunnah.com/urn/505720
Yahya related to me from Malik from Ibn Shihab that Abd ar-Rahman ibn Kab ibn Malik al-Ansari told him that his father, Kab ibn Malik, used to relate that the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, said, "The ruh of the mumin is a bird that sits in the trees of the Garden until Allah returns it to his body on the day He raises him ."


Mishkat al-Masabih 1632
He quoted his father to the effect that he used to tell that God’s messenger said, “The spirit of a believer is only a bird which feeds on (Here the Arabic is ta'luqu fi. Mirqat quotes Suyuti who explains it as in the translation above. The verb can have either the sense of being attached to something or of eating) the trees of paradise till God restores him to his body on the day He resurrects it.”

Lets see how Muslims will twist the plain Hadith!



Why LIES are so many, the LIARS forget that they have spoken other contradictory lies.

honesttalk21:
When discussing the preservation of the Qur'an's text, the focus often shifts from the existence of early variations, which are well-documented, to how these variations are understood. During Caliph ʿUthman ibn ʿAffan's rule, around 650-653 CE, a standardized version of the Qur'an was created and distributed to major centers within the expanding Muslim world. Reports suggest that ʿUthman ordered the destruction of alternative texts, leading to a consistent Qur'anic text across regions. Controlled recitational differences were maintained through the canonical qira'at.

Uthman making your Quran consistent was mere Freezing the errors and adopting a unified text for everyone.
To prove this I asked
1. Where is the verse of Rajam in your Qur'an
2. Where is the verse of breastfeeding adult men in your Qur'an

So, all Uthman did was to adopt ONE out of several multiple Qur'an being recited.

honesttalk21:
A frequent topic of interest is the seven ahruf mentioned in early Islamic sources. Only one form, based on the Quraysh dialect, became the standard written text. The other six ahruf did not continue as separate written forms. Some view this as suppression, while others believe the standardized text was versatile enough to accommodate various recitational styles. Scholars debate the nature of the seven ahruf, with some considering them dialectal differences and others seeing them as linguistic classifications. Importantly, no separate Qur'anic canons arose from these variations.

So, who are those reciting the other six Ahruf of the Qur'an?

But you have other problems if you use the argument of suppression of the other Ahruf of the Qur'an
Was Mohammed wrong by asking Allah to give him other Ahruf of the Qur'an?
If Mohammed was wrong, how come Allah didn't seem to know better to correct Mohammed that multiple Ahruf will cause corruption of the Qur'an?

honesttalk21:
The lack of diverse textual families is noteworthy. In other religious traditions, multiple scriptural versions often leave behind evidence such as regional manuscripts or alternative canons. However, the Qur'an does not show such competing versions. Although ʿUthman ordered the destruction of non-standard texts, the complete disappearance of six independent traditions without any surviving evidence is rare. Early manuscripts display a shared consonantal structure.

If the other 6 Ahruf of the Qur'an are nonexistent, it is a proof that 6/7 parts of the Qur'an is lost.

Your problem is worse because there exist NO TRACE of the Standardized and Written Uthmanic Qur'an anywhere. This was why Muslims had to use the RECITATION according to Hafs (not even his Quran).

honesttalk21:
The codex of ʿAbd Allah ibn Masʿud is frequently cited as evidence of early textual diversity. He maintained a personal codex and initially resisted relinquishing it. Some reports describe differences in surah order and missing short surahs. However, early companion codices were more like personal notes than formal copies, often featuring annotations, variant readings, and personal arrangements. No distinct Ibn Masʿud manuscript tradition with a unique structure emerged. His readings were absorbed into the broader tradition, and no rival canon developed from his work. The evidence points to localized variations rather than entirely separate texts.

Stories of verses once recited but absent from the current Qur'an, such as the stoning verse, also spark debate. These accounts appear in major hadith collections and are explained in Islamic theology by the doctrine of abrogation, which allows for the withdrawal of certain revelations. Critics might view this as a retrospective explanation, but the early Muslim community did not try to include these reports in the standardized text, indicating an agreed boundary for the Qur'anic corpus.

The doctrine of abrogation holds no water for disappearance of verses. Why?

Are every verse in the Qur'an extant or some have been abrogated?

Does the verse of Rajam and breastfeeding adults in the Qur'an of Allah in paradise or not? If not, explain why Jibril recited what he did not receive from Allah to Mohammed?

Finally on this,
The verse of Rajam was in the Qur'an till Mohammed died. So, who removed it

Sunan Ibn Majah 1944: Book 9, Hadith 100
It was narrated that 'Aishah said:
“The Verse of stoning and of
breastfeeding an adult ten times was revealed and the paper was with me under my pillow. When the Messenger of Allah died, we were preoccupied with his death, and a tame sheep came in and
ate it.”

As of Mohammed's death, the Rajam was part of the Qur'an. Who removed it?

honesttalk21:
Accounts of the Prophet being reminded of verses underscore the human aspect of oral transmission, highlighting distributed memorization and communal correction. The system relied on collective recitation, not just individual memory. The inclusion of such reports in authoritative collections suggests transparency. Oral cultures often preserve complex material accurately, and in the Qur'an's case, oral transmission complemented early written records.

If Mohammed can forget the Qur'an

honesttalk21:
The early Arabic script, which initially lacked vowel marks and diacritical dots, is significant. These were added later to formalize existing recitational traditions, not to create new texts. Early manuscripts show a consistent consonantal text across regions, with only minor differences. Compared to other ancient scriptures with multiple manuscript families and unstable canons, the Qur'an achieved early consolidation.

Interpretations often hinge on initial assumptions. Viewing the Qur'an as an ancient text reflects early canon formation. From the Qur'an's claim of divine protection, historical processes can be seen as fulfilling this promise. Human efforts in compiling, standardizing, memorizing, and reciting do not contradict preservation; they may be its means.

Historically, there were early variations; ʿUthman standardized the text soon after the Prophet's death, removed alternative materials, allowed controlled recitational diversity, and the text achieved widespread consistency early on. Whether this reflects political consolidation or the successful preservation of a recognized text is open to interpretation. The absence of competing canons, early standardization, integration of companion readings, manuscript consistency, and open discussions of early variations support the idea that the Qur'an was effectively preserved in its canonical form. From an Islamic viewpoint, these historical processes represent the means through which divine preservation was realized.

Falsehoods in islam are easily revealed with simple questions

1. Was the Qur'an of Uthman identical to the Qur'an of Abubakar?
2. Muslims seem to forget that the Quran was collected an written in the lifetime of Mohammed.

Muslim scholars edited and re-edited the Qur'an and then backtracked it to the time of Mohammad with their own fabricated Isnad. The lack of paper trails is an evidence that they intentionally removed whatever earlier Quran from History.

WriterrNg:

---

I also heard that he eats Putin's shit as breakfast.

What kind of mole sells the best weapons to the enemies of his handlers??

Coming from you, I can only say "it must be the truth" depending on what you call shit.

I am sure you did not know that President Donald Trump canceled the sale of long-range Tomahawk cruise missiles to Ukraine.

I am sure you don't know that Patriots Interceptor Missiles are undersupplied with excuses based on limited US stockpile.

I am sure you don't know that after the initial 40 ATACMS missiles given to Ukraine, not one has been given to them by USA.

If you will talk about HIMARS, you should kuku shamelessly talk about Rifles and uniforms and vests


So, What are the so-called BEST WEAPONS you seem to be afraid of?
SMH!

WriterrNg:

---

😂 🤣 😭 🤣 😂

Trump helping Putin by selling billion dollars worth of military equipments to Ukraine?

Is that how you help people in your village? You twis-ted f***k.

Zelensky himself said it a week ago that fresh shipments of Patriot Air defense systems and HIMARS missiles have arrived.

Who produces these Patriot air defense systems & HIMARS? Italy right? Or Serbia?

Don't worry, Trump would soon be out. Let's see what other bull-shit excuse you'll come up with.

The US thought they would crush the Taliban in 4 hours but ended up losing after fighting with the goat herders for 20 whole years.

BTW, you haven't answered my question yet.

Show us the people the US fought for 20 years in Afghanistan. Show us.

Trump the Russian mole in US whitehouse and the wannabe friend of Putin.

I heard that he even recently hung Putin's picture in the whitehouse!
SMH!

CalabarPikin:
In war, any body could be a victim.

Kindly raise the white flag dear comedian president

I know that if you were in the position of Ukraine, you would have surrendered your land and independence to the Aggressor: people like that are known as cowards.

May I never become a coward in the face of my enemies IJMN.

WriteerNg:
This is who Russia is fighting in Ukraine.

Tonididdy, Botragelad, TenQ. Can you show us who the US fought and lost to in Afghanistan for 20 years.

Your Russia/USA obsession is exceeded only by your obsession.

Is it painful to you that even with Trump helping Putin the special military operation that should last a few weeks is in its fourth year with millions of Russians dead and crippled in Ukraine!?

honesttalk21:
You are equating early standardization with textual corruption, but these are not the same thing, and conflating them is a misunderstanding.

Historical records indicate early written variation, followed by consolidation under Uthman and a lasting textual stability. The documented variations are orthographic and dialectal within an oral culture, rather than competing bodies of revelation. This reflects the formation of the canon, not a collapse of the text.

All canonical readings share the same structure of surahs and verse counts. No canonical reading includes extra surahs, omits surahs, or contains doctrinal contradictions. If corruption occurred as you suggest, we would expect to see:

Competing textual frameworks with differing verse counts

Canonical readings with added or missing surahs

Doctrinal contradictions among recognized readings

However, we find none of these.

Reports about rajm or similar narrations exist in the most authoritative sources (Bukhari and Muslim). A tradition that aimed to hide corruption would not retain reports that critics later use as evidence. This is documentation, not suppression. You may disagree with the theological explanation of abrogation, but rejecting a doctrine does not equate to proving textual loss.

If your assertion is that preservation has failed, then provide empirical evidence:

Show a different surviving rasm between Hafs, Warsh, Qalun, or ad-Duri (remove dots and vowels and compare the consonantal framework)

Identify a canonical verse found in one reading but missing in another. Produce a doctrinal contradiction arising from canonical readings

None of this has been shown.

In the absence of such evidence, the argument remains interpretive rather than textual. When asserting corruption, the burden of proof lies with those making the claim.

I an not conflicting anything. Your argument was that the primary mode of transmission of the Qur'an was oral and that it is perfect. My argument was that your Qur'an was already corrupted well before the standardisation. This means that your standardized Qur'an is a form of adopting ONE SEY of errors (Freezing the errors and adopting a unified text for everyone.

To prove this I asked
1. Was the Qur'an of Abubakar identical with the Qur'an of Uthman?

2. Was it true than Muslims used to RECITE the verse of Rajam and breastfeeding of adult men?
Can you please remind me of what the perfect memory of Muslims memorized in the verses

Muslims are like a person given a book to keep. The pages scattered because someone loosed the bound. The wind carried off some of the verses in the book. Someone comes and puts the remaining book together in no particular order and called it the STANDARDIZED text, perfect and exactly the same as the original copy. SMH!
This is the Qur'an!

A question you should ask yourself is
Where is the copy of copies of the Uthmanic Qur'an?
Where is even the copy of copies of the Hafs Qur'an?

Don't forget that you didn't answer the questions based on your spontaneous fabrications
1. So, were the other six dialects written down or only the Quarysh dialect was written down?
2. Where are the other six Ahruf of your Qur'an

lawani:
Why they don't give contracts to companies from the high income world is because they quote more because of high personnel costs due to high cost of living in those countries. If the Chinese are asking for one billion dollars when Siemens say they will take three billion dollars, how will Siemens win the bid? It is the same reason manufacturing has almost all left high income countries.

True BUT the underlying problem is corruption. Chinese or Indian companies can bid low but the price of the awarded contract usually much higher sometimes up to 300% the ordinary cost.

Siemens quoted $3 Billion
China Quoted $1.8 Billion but was awarded the contract for $2.9 billion with difference pocketed.

This is how the system is milked by our politicians

Ohyoudidnt:
You're right—the problem isn't the presence of politicians in Nigeria; it's that ours operate without accountability.

The power sector illustrates the difficulties within our electoral system:

1. Tariff Politics: Keeping prices low for the sake of popularity results in revenue shortfalls for generation companies, leading to neglected maintenance and bailouts instead of essential reforms.

This is certainly NOT one of the problems.
The cost per unit electricity in UK is $0.35, USA is $0.17 and i. Nigeria is $0.13. The cost difference between USA and Nigeria is not that great especially considering the fact that salaries of Electricity workers are much smaller.

Ohyoudidnt:
2. Gas-to-Power Breakdown: Unpaid gas suppliers lead to supply disruptions, leaving turbines idle despite their potential, which fosters the narrative of technical constraints.

This is an administration and management problem as the unpaid gas suppliers do jot have anything to do with consumer not paying.

Ohyoudidnt:
3. Grid Bottleneck: Weak transmission limits output, so even though we have available generation, it cannot be distributed effectively, causing persistent blackouts despite installed capacity. This is key to the initial Nnaji recommendation from his time as minister that I referred you to.

I think until we generate up to 8GW of electric power, we have no right to blame the transmission networks.

Ohyoudidnt:
4. Reform Without Reform: Subsidies, emergency repairs, fuel imports, and opaque contracts become more lucrative than ensuring a consistent supply, turning dysfunction into a profitable model.

Countries that function well don’t have fewer politicians; they enforce accountability. Here, the institutions meant to restrict power are instead dominated by it.

I am 100% in agreement with you here. Nothing else to add.





What do you think would happen if a company like Siemens is contracted to build a 20GW turbine station powered from direct supply of crude oil?

Do you think the company cannot build a Modular Refinery to produce the kind of fuel required fro their turbines?

Do you think that a company like Siemens after Building such a power station cannot build parallel national grid for its energy distribution?


Unfortunately,even if our politicians are convinced to do this, they will look for a Chinese or Indian company to execute the project rather than giving it to a German, UK, Korean, Israeli or Japanese companies?

alphonsoolajide:
https://eyesoflagos.com/2026/02/11/cheating-not-enough-reason-leave-man-debate/

Correction!

All men can cheat BUT not all men cheat!

The fact that all your dates and ex's cheat may be because you serially look for guys with incentives and potential to cheat

honesttalk21:
You are still merging categories and then blaming Muslims for inconsistency because they reject the confusion you've created.

Uthman did not standardize the Qur’an into a single version. He standardized the written form in the Quraysh dialect, as it was the dialect of the Prophet and most widely understood just as noted in Sahih al-Bukhari. This decision was about orthography, not revelation.

Muslims with spontaneous fabrications
1. So, were the other six dialects written down or only the Quarysh dialect was written down?
2. Where are the other six Ahruf of your Qur'an


Is it untrue that many scholars Ibn Ḥajar and others interpreted “seven aḥruf” to mean seven dialects/modes of Arabic speech current among the Arab tribes at that time, so that the Qur’an could be firm yet flexible for different groups.
Some of the dialects commonly mentioned in commentary literature include those of Quraysh, Hudhayl, Thaqīf, and others

Why pretend that you are not aware of this to project false narratives

honesttalk21:
Indeed, the rasm lacked dots or vowels. However, this is not a flaw; it is intentional. The ambiguous script was designed to accommodate oral recitations that were already preserved through mass memorization. When diacritics were introduced later, they didn't alter the text; they merely recorded what the reciters had been publicly transmitting.

You continue to insist on a model of preservation based solely on manuscripts. Islam has never claimed such a model.

All Semitic languages had only consonant letters not by design but because their script was less advanced. It was about the 8th century that they all began to have vowels and diacritical marks which included pronunciations into the text.

Your literatures have repeatedly concluded that memorisation of the Qur'an was a flawed system with verses forgotten, dispute over recitations. Even Mohammed forgot the Qur'an


Sahih al-Bukhari 5037-5038;
Narrated Aishah:
The Prophet (peace be upon him) heard a man reciting the Qur'an in the mosque and said, "May Allah bestow His Mercy on him, as he has reminded me of such-and-such verses of such Surah."

Sahih Muslim 788
A variant wording in Muslim emphasizes: "May Allah have mercy upon him; he reminded me of the verse which I had been made to forget."

But according you, Muslims have better memories than their prophet.
SMH!

honesttalk21:
Preservation in Islam is tawatur—distributed, convergent, mass transmission anchored to a unified rasm. All canonical qiraʾat:

• Share the same consonantal structure
• Follow the same order of surahs
• Maintain the same verse structure
• Convey identical doctrinal content

If you argue otherwise, please provide a difference in rasm among Hafs, Warsh, Qalun, or ad-Duri. Remove the dots and vowels and demonstrate a different consonantal foundation. You cannot - because it doesn’t exist.

I will if you can only show me ancient Qur'an backed up with their Isnad to confirm that they are Warsh, Hafs, Qalun, Al-Duri etc.

Do you accept my challenge?

LOL! Muslims that cannot find a single full copy of the Uthmanic Qur'an is throwing a challenge!
SMH!!

honesttalk21:
Regarding Maliki vs. Maliki or similar variations; yes, there are minor lexical differences within the same rasm. These have always been known, documented, and transmitted through tawatur. They do not create new doctrines or missing verses nor do they present competing texts. Variation within authorized readings iis not corruption it reflects controlled divinely allowed diversity.

The reference to Umm al-Kitab/Lawh Mahfuz is another category error. It signifies God’s eternal knowledge rather than a physical manuscript with dots in heaven. Revelation came as recitation. What is preserved is the revealed text, and every canonical qiraʾa transmits that same revelation.

There aren’t multiple Qur’ans. There is one Qur’an conveyed through multiple authorized readings within the same rasm.

You are challenging a model of preservation that Islam has never asserted. Eliminate that incorrect assumption, and your objection falls apart.

What I have showed you is that Memorisation as a means of preservation of the Qur'an is grossly flawed.

1. Was the Qur'an of Abubakar identical with the Qur'an of Uthman?

2. Was it true than Muslims used to RECITE the verse of Rajam and breastfeeding of adult men?
Can you please remind me of what the perfect memory of Muslims memorized in the verses

If you cannot RECITE these recited verses, your recitations are at best flawed as a means of preservation of the Qur'an

Grit2943:
Good afternoon everyone
Happy weekend

Please I need insight from people on the recommended fee I can pay someone to drive my car from Abuja to Ibadan. My car is a 2011 Camry with a four cylinder engine.

My current plan is 100k for fuelling and 100k for his services.

Thank you very much

N100k fuel is okay to Ibadan and another N100k return fuel.

Foe the Driver, its purely according to your bargaining power with the driver.

It would be nice if the Driver will be given a room to stay and Food for your N100k price especially if it is for a to and fro journey.

The driver price may change if you are spending more than two days in Ibadan.

Peace

honesttalk21:
You're not identifying contradictions; rather, you're persistently in making category errors.

Seven ahruf do not equal seven Qur’ans. These were divinely allowed oral variations, not competing texts. Authorized variation cannot lead to corruption.

Asking “Name the seven ahruf” is a misguided request. No source states that there were seven named books or lists of dialects. Classical scholars assert that they were practiced rather than cataloged.

Muslims will twist their own history until it doesn't makes sense even to themselves.
So then, tell me why Uthman standardised his Qur'an into a single Ahruf using the Quraysh dialect?

honesttalk21:
Uthman r.a standardized the script, not the revelation itself. He unified the written rasm to eliminate pronunciation disputes and no verses were added, removed, or altered; oral transmission continued with thousands.

Ibn Masʿud never possessed a different Qur’an. Claims of missing surahs are weak and isolated, easily countered by mass transmission (tawstur). No community has ever adhered to a 111-surah Qur’an.

The emphasis on recitation over manuscripts reflects history rather than failure. The Qur’an was mainly preserved through public memorization; writing served as an additional support.

Your question “Which Qur’an is in heaven?” lacks substance. Revelation is maintained as recited text, not as a celestial codex. All canonical readings express the same Qur’an.

There are no multiple Qur’ans. No lost chapters. No corrupt chains.
You are challenging a manuscript-only model that Islam never asserted.
Preservation remains intact. The objection continuously fails.

Al-Musliimas will rather tell lies than admit the Truth they do not want
Repeating falsehood a million times will not make it become the truth sir.
Sorry, Uthman did NOT standardize the script.
Uthman's Arabic script was without diacritical marks and is known as rasm style.

In this form readers supply vowels via memorization and context. Dots were added later (8th century CE)

So, there exist no Umm al-Kitab with Allah?

Isn't your Qur'an supposed to be word for word identical to the Umm al-Kitab/Lawh Mahfuz

So, the Question again, which one of your Arabic Qur'an is the EXACT copy of the Book of Allah!


It is a fair question based on the claims of Islam

Ohyoudidnt:
If it's just as simple as you put it then it would have been long done. The issue goes beyond low generation; even operational plants cannot function without a steady supply of fuel and guaranteed payments. Additionally, poor maintenance, vandalism, and inefficiencies in the grid worsen the bottleneck.

The problem is when you put politicians in charge of Technological Innovation and Development. They will leave the problem to face their personal gains.


This played out just recently in our Senate.
1. Who in Nigeria doesn't know that we need electoral reform?
2. Who doesn't know that a core part of the reform is transparency in transmission of results
3. Who doesn't know that real time transmission of results will curb electoral malpractices

BUT,
Your Senators said that because there are 9 states with insecurity problems, this will NOT be possible because the Mobile Network Masts and systems MAY be disabled.

1. They forgot that humans will conduct the elections and they should solve this security problem. If elections will take place in the 9 states, there is no excuse for the mobile network not tonwork.
2. They forgot that Starlink system can be deployed for those 9 states to guarantee internet accessibility.

Its the same problem: our politicians!

Ohyoudidnt:
Flared gas isn't power fuel; it remains stranded, unprocessed, and disconnected from turbines. Most power plants in Nigeria run solely on gas, with only a few dual-fuel units available. Operating on diesel is two to three times more expensive. The installed capacity of 13 GW includes plants that are currently inactive, but their inactivity is due to gas shortages, lack of payment, and inadequate maintenance not because of nonexistent capacity. This is why generation typically falls between 3.5 and 5 GW and less, which is significantly lower than the transmission capacity of 8 to 8.5 GW. The primary limitation is the availability of generation not the grid until improvements are made to gas infrastructure and payment practices.

After going round and round, you finally agreed that the problem is that we are not even generating enough.

Fuel for turbines are not rocket fuels virtually any fuel type will work. Turbines are not as picky as internal combustion engine for the FUEL type used.

Feed Syngas into a gas turbine sir it will work fine!

honesttalk21:
You're not identifying a problem; rather, you're mischaracterizing the preservation model.

1. Uthman and the dialect (Quraysh):
ʿUthman standardized the rasm (consonantal skeleton) in the Quraysh dialect to avoid regional disputes, not to replace existing memorization. Oral transmission was already widespread and continuous.

Meaning that
1. Mohammed and Allah were wrong in giveng the Qur'an in more than one Ahruf

Sahih Muslim 821 a
Ubayy b. Ka'b reported that the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) was near the tank of Banu Ghifar that Gabriel came to him and said:

Allah has commanded you to recite to your people the Qur'an in one dialect. Upon this he said: I ask from Allah pardon and forgiveness. My people are not capable of doing it. He then came for the second time and said: Allah has commanded you that you should recite the Qur'an to your people in two dialects. Upon this he (the Holy prophet) again said: I seek pardon and forgiveness from Allah, my people would not be able to do so. He (Gabriel) came for the third time and said: Allah has commanded you to recite the Qur'an to your people in three dialects. Upon this he said: I ask pardon and forgiveness from Allah. My people would not be able to do it. He then came to him for the fourth time and said: Allah has commanded you to recite the Qur'an to your people in seven dialects, and in whichever dialect they would recite, they would be right.

Tell me, why dod Allah agree with Mohammad into giving confusing Ahrufs that ended up corrupting the Qur'an?

honesttalk21:
2.No copies of the seven Qur'ans survived?
This is a misleading assertion. Early manuscripts and fragments that align with the ʿUthmānic rasm do exist (Topkapi, Tashkent, Birmingham, Paris, Tübingen). Preservation has never relied on a single museum-quality grade artifact remaining intact for 1400 years.

So, can you kindly give me the names of these SEVEN ahruf of the Qur'an and the copies of their copy?

honesttalk21:
3. Muslims switched to Hafṣ
I ncorrect. Hafṣ is not a source of the Qur'an; he transmitted one canonical reading among several, all preserved by tawatur. His modern prevalence reflects printing logistics, not the loss of other readings, which continue to exist (Warsh, Qalun, ad-Duri).

You did not answer my questions.
Let me elaborate.

If the Quran was written in the time of Uthman, there should exist only two names in the isnad of your Qur'an: Mohammed and Uthman QED!
But here you have your Qur'an according to the RECITATION not WRITING nor COPY of Uthman's Qur'an.

If there is a physical copy of the Qur'an your other copies must be from it and not from someone's memory.

honesttalk21:
4. Ibn Masʿud and early variation:
Ibn Masʿud did not possess a different Qur'an. His personal codex included dialectal variants and notes but no doctrinal differences. ʿUthmān standardized public recitation to unify dialect not to correct poor or failed memory.

It is shocking that you a Muslim did not know that Ibn Mas'uds Qur'an had ONLY 111 surah. Ibn Mas'ud's version reportedly omitted Surah al-Fatiha (Chapter 1), al-Falaq (113), and an-Nas (114)—known as al-Mu'awwidhatayn.


To you, ommition of two whole chapters is a diacritical or pronunciation problem.
Muslims!!!!

honesttalk21:
5. Abu Bakr's compilation:
This was not aimed at stopping memorization errors. It served as a written backup for what thousands already knew by heart after many memorizers fell in battle. Writing supported memory did not replace or erase it.

Muslims always think they can get away with fabrications like this.

Sahih al-Bukhari 4987
Narrated Anas bin Malik:
Hudhaifa bin Al-Yaman came to `Uthman at the time when the people of Sham and the people of Iraq were Waging war to conquer Arminya and Adharbijan. Hudhaifa was afraid of their (the people of Sham and Iraq) differences in the recitation of the Qur'an, so he said to `Uthman, "O chief of the Believers! Save this nation before they differ about the Book (Qur'an) as Jews and the Christians did before." So `Uthman sent a message to Hafsa saying, "Send us the manuscripts of the Qur'an so that we may compile the Qur'anic materials in perfect copies and return the manuscripts to you." Hafsa sent it to `Uthman. `Uthman then ordered Zaid bin Thabit, `Abdullah bin AzZubair, Sa`id bin Al-As and `AbdurRahman bin Harith bin Hisham to rewrite the manuscripts in perfect copies. `Uthman said to the three Quraishi men, "In case you disagree with Zaid bin Thabit on any point in the Qur'an, then write it in the dialect of Quraish, the Qur'an was revealed in their tongue." They did so, and when they had written many copies, `Uthman returned the original manuscripts to Hafsa. `Uthman sent to every Muslim province one copy of what they had copied, and ordered that all the other Qur'anic materials, whether written in fragmentary manuscripts or whole copies, be burnt.

Did you see DIFFERENCES in the RECITATION of the Qur'an?
SMH!

First, Allah made the mistake of giving the Qur'an in seven dialects. Now, we see that they recite differently the Qur'an.

honesttalk21:
6. "Pen vs memory" and Allah creating the Pen:
This is obvious category error. The ḥadīth regarding the Pen pertains to divine decree and foreknowledge (God's eternal knowledge), not human methods of preservation. Islam deliberately employs both:

Oral mass transmission (primary, self-verifying)

Written copies (secondary, corroborative)

What is the Pen used for?
What is a book?
Is the Umm al-Kitab ("Mother of the Book", Lawh Mahfuz ("Preserved Tablet", or Kitab Maknun ("Concealed Book" REAL or not

honesttalk21:
7. Who is the sole authority to correct the Qur'an?
There is no single authority by design. Preservation is distributed rather than centralized. Millions of memorizers across generations mutually verify the text. A single authority would create a single point of failure.

You're critiquing a manuscript-only, centralized model that Islam has never advocated for. The Qur'an has been preserved through extensive oral transmission supported by writing not through one narrator, one codex, or one authority.

This is a category error. Preservation remains intact. Your objection fails.

Even the first generation of Muslims differed in recital of the Qur'an not to speak of modern Muslims. The Shia Muslims.

The Question is, which of your extant Qur'an is the exact copy of the Qur'an of Allah?

honesttalk21:
The assertion that everyone had their own qiraa prior to 1924 is incorrect. The established qiraat were standardized by scholarly consensus in the early centuries of Islam and formally codified by Ibn Mujahid in 324 AH (936 CE), almost a thousand years before the Cairo edition, which only standardized printing rather than transmission or revelation. Hafs is not a source of the Quran but rather a transmitter of an already established reading that existed alongside others; his current dominance can be attributed to Ottoman and modern printing methods, while Warsh and other readings continue to be used. Allegations of a faulty chain conflate Hafs, the Quran reciter, with unrelated hadith narrators and misapply single chain hadith critiques to Quranic transmission, which has been preserved through tawatur by countless memorizers. Early Uthmanic codices and fragments exist that align with the consonantal text, but the Quran was mainly maintained through extensive oral transmission, with writing serving as support. Insisting on one original manuscript imposes a document-based standard on a primarily oral system this is a category error. The preservation remains valid.

You are simply just reciting the Standard Islamic Narration about the origin of the written Qur'an.

Here is the problem:
1. Uthman standardised the Quran in one dialect (Quraysh)
2. Uthman wrote down the standardized Qur'an
3. Uthman made 7 identical copies of this standardized Qur'an and distributed it to seven major Islamic regions

BUT Somehow, Muslims couldn't find a copy of copies of the Uthmanic Qurans from ANY of the seven original copies.

Muslims then went on a SPREE of RECITATION according to...... according to...... according to .... according to Hafs.

Can you tell me what happened to the original standardized Qur'an of Uthman?

Evidence within Islamic sources had shown that Muslims have terrible memories and memorisation of their Qur'an. Right from Inception, Ibn Mas'ud differ from the Uthmanic Qur'an. Variations exists from the beginning of Islam such that Abubakar's Quran was to stop this error or memorisation of the Qur'an.

The Pen is mightier than any memory but Muslims disagree. So then we ask them why Allah created the PEN first when he could rely on memory AND can any Muslim tell us the person recognised as the sole authority on the Qur'an that such can correct the extant written Qur'an and you will follow him?

honesttalk21:
1924 didn't select Hafs as God's Qur'an but rather standardized an already accepted reading for educational purposes. All qiraʾat are still valid; having multiple readings of the same text demonstrates preservation rather than corruption, and referring to them as different Qur'ans is a fundamental misunderstanding.

No problem !
The only issue is that before 1924, everyone had their own Qirat of the Qur'an . Hafs version was chosen (even though it had faulty chain of transmission according to Muslim rules) as a STANDARD and now Approximately 95% of Muslims worldwide use the Hafs recitation of the Quran.

Unfortunately, this is another problem
1. Where are the copies of the Qur'an of Uthman?

After Uthman standardised the Qur'an, he made 7 copies of the WRITTEN Qur'an. Copies were sent to key cities like Medina, Mecca, Kufa, Basra, Damascus, Yemen, and Bahrain, with orders to burn variant fragments to prevent disputes

If the islamic stories about Qur'an preservation was TRUE, we wouldn't need the RECITATIONS according to.... according to....... according to Hafs.

Where are the copies of copies of Uthmanic Qur'an?

honesttalk21:
Oops! Muslims did not choose Hafs. The Qur'an has been preserved through mass transmission (tawatur), public transmission long before and after his time. Hafs is not a starting point; he is merely one transmitter of one canonical reading among others (like Warsh, Qalun, and ad-Duri), all of which have been independently preserved and are still in use today.

No chains disappeared; they coexisted. Hafs became more widespread later due to the convenience of Ottoman printing, not because of any theological reliance; his reading had already been accepted canonically centuries earlier.

Criticizing Hafs applies hadith criteria to Qur'anic transmission, which is a category error. The Qur'an relies on multiple independent mass transmissions rather than a single narrator or a printing press.

So, why did you choose Hafs transmission in 1924 ,where the Cairo edition standardized Hafs Qur'an globally?

The Cairo edition came because Al-Azhar since the Fatimid era (10th century) was the global hub for qira'at scholarship, hosting students from across the Muslim world (North Africa, Levant, Persia, Sub-Saharan Africa, South Asia). The problem was the vast difference in recitations leading to the adoption/promotion of a single version for all Muslims


*Apart from these above, the existing Different Arabic Qurans in the world now is about 32 to 36* . Not one Muslim can tell us which one of them is the exact copy of the Quran of Allah in heaven.
Here is a list of some of the different Arabic Qurans in existent:
_Hafs Quran_
_Warsh Quran_
_Qalun Quran_
_Al-Duri Quran_
_Al-Bazzi Quran_
_Qunbul Quran_
_Al-Suri Quran_
_Ibn `Amir Quran_
_Hisham Quran_
_Ibn Dhakwan Quran_
_Khallad Quran_
_Al-Kisa'i Quran_
_Al-Duri Quran_
_Abu'l-Harith Quran_
_Ibn Wardan Quran_
_Ibn Jamaz Quran_
_Ya`qub al-Hashimi_
_Ruways Quran_
_Rawh Quran_
_Khalaf al-Bazzar Quran_
_Ishaq Quran_
_Idris al-Haddad Quran_
_Khalaf Quran_

The most popular versions are the Hafs Quran and the Warsh Quran


You can clearly see that the claim of the Perfectly Preserved Quran is a fallacy.

Ohyoudidnt:
Nigeria's power grid isn't underutilized due to a lack of plants or weak infrastructure. The installed generation capacity is approximately 13.6 GW, while reliable transmission hovers around 8 to 8.7 GW. However, less than 5 GW is operational, as gas shortages, non-payment issues, vandalism, and maintenance failures leave many plants idle. The centralized, government-owned transmission system contributes to significant technical losses, congestion, and risks of single-point failures. While local or embedded generation can circumvent these losses, it may involve higher upfront costs for local transmission. Ultimately, the main challenges stem from gas availability, cash flow issues, and inefficiencies within the centralized grid not from the generation equipment itself.

Do you know that Nigeria should NEVER complain about gas shortages because we have OIL and we flare our gas during refining crude.

Most turbines can work with BOTH gas and liquid fuel. Honestly, we have no excuse.

I think you are still getting your data skewed
1. Installed Capacity 13GW
This is the total power if ALL our generators are functioning. It includes turbines that are damaged or no more in use
2. Wheeling Capacity 8-8.5GW
This is the maximum power our grid can safety carry.
3. Generated Power 3.5GW to 6GW
This is the range of our power generation. We are not even close to our wheeling capacity of 8-8.5GW capacity because our average generation is about 3.6 GW.


Our grid will start becoming a problem when we are generating more than the 8GW power because the demand will stress the grid line

Odewaleadesoye:
He was appointed the 12th Chief Imam of the Ilorin Emirate in 1983 and served in this role for over four decades.



DAILY POST

He lived a lie all through his life, now he knows the truth but its too late.

Jesus, the Way, the Truth and the Life. Onlu through Him will Muslims have Life

Ohyoudidnt:
The problem is systemic, not isolated. Fairly recently, Nigeria's maximum official power generation peaked at 5,375 MW in February 2024, and we have never reached 7 GW due to several issues:
Gas supply problems seen with IPPs like Papalanto lacking guaranteed gas supply. Even Sahara Energy managing Egbin has it's challenges.

Idle capacity is seen where power plants exist but can't operate due to unavailable pipelines or gas.

GenCos face shutdowns because DisCos are not making payments.

Your analysis is correct that low generation leads to grid instability; if one plant shuts down, others may follow, resulting in widespread failure. Then realistically how much of the transmission lines due to be replaced have been?

Although we have 13 GW of installed capacity, we only transmit 4-5 GW because the transmission lines can't support more power even if we are able to generate this much.

Barth Nnaji points out that the power sector needs tariffs that accurately reflect electricity costs, private investments, and infrastructure upgrades simultaneously, not in sequence.

Fortunately some progress has been made towards reducing line losses seen in transmitting generated power to a centre and then distribution. At least Aba's example is visible.

I understand you perfectly,only that Nigeria had never used up nor maximized the national grid capacity.

Nigeria's national grid transmission (wheeling) capacity stands at approximately 8,000-8,700 MW reliable limit as of early this year. BUT here we are in 2026 never able to push a mere 6GW into the line.

So. you see that the problem is more of generation rather than transmission line capacity.

bamsz:
You are missing my point, I am not talking about willigness now, I am only pointing to the complexity. This is more reason our politicians have to wake up, you need to develop an adjacent industry that would build the long-term power infrastructure, you need qualified engineers in thousands....its not wishful thinking, it's a lot of work....

The technology of Electrical Energy Generation and Transmission is not Rocket Science: it is simple for people who truly want to solve the problem.

Nigeria has thousands of Qualified Engineers to man the problem. There exists many technical partners that can install turbines system

honesttalk21:
The Qur'an was never reliant on Hafṣ; it had been memorized by thousands and standardized under ʿUthman well before his time. Hafs is simply one canonical reading, not the original source. Criticizing hadith narrators such as Hafs b. Sulayman does not impact the authenticity of the Qur'an.

No problem that the Qur'an was memorised. The problem is that of the hundreds of thousands of the purported memorisers of the Qur'an, you choose Hafs who normally should be disqualified by your own standard of transmission of islamic truths..

So, are you telling me that other credible chain of transmission of the Qur'an somehow disappeared!?

Islamic stories usually have K legs with scrutiny

honesttalk21:
You’re mixing up two distinct fields of study. While Hafs b. Sulayman is considered weak in hadith narration, he is not regarded as weak in Qur’anic recitation, and it's important to note that the Qur’an is transmitted quite differently from hadith.

Hafs was never called a liar. He was deemed weak only in terms of hadith precision due to his memory, not for fabrication. This assessment does not apply to Qur’anic transmission, which is mass-transmitted and confirmed independently across generations. Hafs is simply one transmitter of one reading (ʿAsim) among several equally authentic readings like Warsh, Qalun etc.

Using hadith criticism on the Qur’an is a category mistake; there are no multiple Qur’ans, only different canonical readings of the same text, all preserved through mass transmission. Hadith evaluation is on basis of probability; Qur’anic transmission is collective and public.

1. Isnt the Qur'an also a Hadith of Allah transmitted through Jibril to Mohammed through other reporters?
2. It seems you don't know Hafs.
Al-ʿUqaylī, Ḍuʿafā’ al-ʿUqaylī, ed. ʿAbd al-Muʿṭī Amīn Qalʿahjī (Beirut: Dār al-Kutub al-ʿIlmiyyah, 1984), 1:257.
which states:

كَانَ يَسْرِقُ الْكُتُبَ، وَيَضَعُهَا فِي كُتُبِهِ، وَكَانَ هُوَ وَأَبُوهُ مَتْهُونَيْنِ فِي الْحَدِيثِ، ضَعِيفَيْنِ
"He used to steal books and incorporate them into his own books. He and his father were considered worthless/despised in Ḥadīth, weak."

This is from your own early Islamic books
3. My argument still stands. If there is no falsehood at the foundation of the source of your Qur'an, there should be several sources of the Qur'an as it needn't pass through Hafs not his father.
How many copies of the Qur'an did Uthman make?
How many people memorised the Qur'an completely before the birth of Hafs and his father?

honesttalk21:
In hadith science, if there is a known liar or someone accused of fabrication in the chain, the report is outright rejected and deemed mawdu(fabricated) or matruk (abandoned). However, if a narrator is unknown (majhul) or truthful but lacks precision, the report is considered daʿif (weak) not fabricated. I see you conflate these distinct categories into a false dilemma, overlooking the established intermediate rules that guide hadith evaluation.

This is precisely why Ibn Maqjah 1042 is classified as hasan. Its narrators are not liars, the weaknesses are minor, and there are supporting reports with similar wording that elevate a lightly weak chain to hasan li-ghayrih. Remember I questioned you of other hadith with similar wording? Mistaking weakness for fabrication is not a scholarly disagreement; it is a methodological error stemming from polemics rather than from hadith science.

So, why do Muslims not reject the Qur'an of Hafs?

You very well know that there should be countless other people more credible than Hafs and his father who should have memorised the Qur'an perfectly.

But no! Of all narrators Muslims cannot find any chain of transmission using their own rules but to include at least two fraudulent liars.

Can you see that Muslims pick and choose what they think suits their current position?

immaculatesense:
I thought NYSC should have exposed some of you beyond your states and local government na.
Oh sorry, not all of your graduated from school or had opportunity to serve.
I served in Ebonyi state in Ezza North to be precise just a little less than 10 years ago and I can say authoritatively that there was no single bank in the whole of Ezza North at the time. We had to go to Abaliki before we could make withdrawals. I knew how many kilometers we had to trek just to make a call, we couldn't even receive calls because there were no network. How will REAL TIME transmission of results work in those areas? Or election should not hold in those areas abi?
So, if them ask you no, you go answer say banks dey all local government in Nigeria abi? Dey there.

No Be Juju Be Dat?

Have you heard of starlink solution?

If the excuse is insecurity, do you think elections will be possible at all even with paper?

Politicians can lie for Africa!

honesttalk21:
I asked if there were hadith with similar wording to the one graded Hassan? Sure there are and a Hassan hadith is not discarded just because concerns are raised for valid reasons.

Hadith grading is a rigorous methodology rather than a matter of personal opinion. While there is some subjective judgment involved, it operates within established rules that have been accepted across different schools for over 1,200 years. Scholarly disagreement doesn't translate to unreliability it shows thorough evaluation not rejection. Daʿif does not serve as evidence for legal or doctrinal matters, which is exactly why Islam prevents the acceptance of unreliable reports instead of concealing them. What you refer to as dishonesty is in fact a transparent form of self-critique, something that many other traditions do not permit.

Exploring disagreement using objective criteria is not subjectivity!

Let me ask you a question.

Lets test your objective criteria!
If a person is a known liar or fraudulent in character is in the chain of an hadith, according to the science of hadiths, is his hadith graded as Maudu or Daif or ultimately REJECTED?
.
Do you accept that, If your science is exact, you surely must be able to give a repeatable and consistent factual response of objective action.