₦airaland Forum

Fenrir:
See, cherry-picking out of context the typical trick of Nigerian men

Proof you lost, I answered everything in 1 go, you cherry-pick and twist it.


Now I must implore you to neutralise your current penchant for this galling and grandiloquent banter lest I am provoked to disintegrate your logic with a relentless salvo of esoteric philosophical fragments and pray do not misinterpret my discourse as blowing big grammar i am simply facilitating a rigorous anatomical dissection of your current rhetorical fallacies

Please stop wasting my time.
Pick a point and slug it out if you can!

Otherwise, an empty drum makes the greatest noise!

I did not use the Bible but the Laws of Logic and Science to arrive at the conclusion that there must Exist an Intelligent Uncaused-First-Cause of Everything that is not bounded by the laws of Physics and Chemistry

Sorry!

MaxInDHouse:
You see the reason why you don't worth engaging me in such a discussion?

You want me to talk about what i shared with my brothers in sacred service but you don't respect such arrangements yet you feel i should engage you in such a serious discussion.

You don't have to engage with me. I think we concluded about that. Discuss the questions with your fellow elders using your Bible as a guide.

Is it too much to ask?

DeepSight:
+
I think it is unknowable.

I agree with you.

God is truely unknowable UNLESS He reveals Himself to us.

We get to know who God is through some men He had chosen from the Land of Israel: from Abraham to the Apostles of Jesus. Records abound in the Bible.

Each one of us Christians then bond in a union of Relationship with God by our individual personal and subjective experience of Him. Thus we can say, we know this God reported by His prophets personally.

Fenrir:
I never said differently but I get to define the atheist I am

And I went to war SO PEOPLE HAD THE RIGHT TO BELIEVE WHATEVER THEY WANT

show me 1 Nigerian man that will fight for my beliefs? Because I gave blood for yours

and you dont even practice Christianity since you scream your traditions are mandatory in a lie, both the Bible and Quran directly tell you not to do that and it makes you a selective hypocrite.

I don't even seem to know you as this thread is the first I can recall where we have conversed.
..and you seem to know that I don't practice Christianity and I claim that my traditions are mandatory in a lie.

You have the Right to whatever you want to believe
BUT
1. Is your position the naked Truth?
2. You have the freedom of thought and choice, but are you free from the consequences of your choice


Do you agree with me that
I will be wickedness on the part of God if He forces you who despise and reject Him to be with Him for Eternity?
Shouldn't He allow you your space you yourself and your kind in a place where you are forgotten by Him?

God actually offers you this above. The choice is yours to make.

DeepSight:
+
I have no issues with this argument and have made it myself many times.

I just want to know how you proceed from this to Jesus.

I guess I have to ask you this question first.

If you believe in an Intelligent Uncaused-First-Cause of Everything who operates outside the physical and chemical laws,
Who do you think He is?

Fenrir:
I answered ALL of your questions, stop being lazy and a hypocrite. Go read it and quote it.

Get over your narcissistic arrogance.

Sorry,
Pick a point and trash it out.

What you claimed are strawman arguments, insinuating what I never said and jumping to your own conclusion.

Let me give you an example
1. You said:

Fenrir:
None of that is evidence its belief and no more

Is this TRUE?

2. Extracts from your thesis.

Fenrir:
The Scandi atheist deconstruction........
First problem: “A building proves a builder, therefore the universe proves God.”


Second problem: “The universe is about 13.6 billion years old, therefore it had a beginning, therefore God.”


.....
TenQ check mate and you claim i didn't read your passive aggressive nonsense

Sorry!
This is NOT how to make your case if you have ANY.

Never once did I make an argument and conclude that "THEREFORE GOD" not once as you are reading the God of the Gaps into my claims.

My claims are PROGRESSIVE REASONINGS based on Current Scientific Knowledge AND Logic to arrive at the Causing Source of the Universe that I called the Uncaused-First-Cause of Everything and I said this Uncaused-First-Cause of Everything is what we Christians call God!


If you have any argument, pick my points One at a Time and answer questions relating to it.
Until then, sorry! I think my points were numbered carefully for you to disprove the scientific and logical fallacy each contains. You can then look at the implications of each if it is True

Fenrir:
And i did not claim to be an atheist I DIRECTLY outright told you im atheist. See the narcissistic attitude of the men in this country.

Do you disagree that there are different shades of Atheism?

Some call themselves Agnostics, others are Satanists....

DeepSight:
+
I know the scientific position. I just dont agree with it and have debated that point on this forum as far back as 2010 - 16 years ago.

https://www.nairaland.com/577313/thehomer-now-lets-discuss-big

Your challenge as to how to prove Christianity still remains.

So, which of my points do you disagree with?

I have not attempted to prove the Christian God at all.

All I have established is that it is LOGICAL and even SCIENTIFIC to conclude that an Intelligent Uncaused-First-Cause created the Universe AND this Uncaused-First-Cause cannot be made of Matter and cannot be subject to the Physical and Chemical Laws.

Except for being Obstinate, there exist no other plausible conclusion.

The question of WHO this Uncaused-First-Cause is another question entirely!

MaxInDHouse:
With who do you agree on your conclusions regarding your questions?

If you don't agree with anyone what makes you think i will agree with you?

Or do you think i'm interested in some aimless arguments that you always engage with random people?😂

Ask your fellow elders and open your bible as you discuss.

Unfortunately, topics like these are not discussed by your publications, thus, you cannot independently open the Bible!


SMH!

Have a nice day!!

DeepSight:
+
If these are the ten points you were referring to, I agree with them (except that I dont believe that time and space were created by or at the moment of the big bang, I believe that time and space cannot be created).

Your challenge is how to move from the above to Christianity.

The logic is this
Time is irrelevant without matter
Matter cannot exist without space
Space without matter is meaningless as there isn't any dimensions by which it can be defined.

Can you ask any AI the question:
According to science, did time, space and matter appear simultaneously at the origin of the universe?

I'll like to know the answer

MaxInDHouse:
Please quote the highlighted in your previous post to me on this thread?😂

So when you are asked to answer questions based on Bible questions like

1. Can anyone see God?
2. Can God be in Heaven and on Earth concurrently?
3. Who was speaking in Heb1:8 to the Son?



You run off to consult the JW manual instead of the Bible!?

SMH!

MaxInDHouse:
Surely you don't think before typing!

I'm living in the same place with those you call "elders"?



If i'm not living in the same place or city with them so how come you believe we all have the same line of thought just as Jesus prayed for his real disciples {John 17:22} but you don't have anyone to relate with as your fellow believers?😂

It seems you don't study the scriptures to know as you've been told what to believe.

All I asked you to do is to study the bible. Is that a tall order to do?

MaxInDHouse:
You haven't answered:

What is the name of your church?😂

What is wrong with you

TenQ:
I belong to "The Church of Jesus Christ" ( I won't tell you the city I reside but I am in Nigeria)

What Has Jesus Achieved in the midst of Us His Children!?
1. He Bought us with the costly Price of His Blood on the Cross and Adopted Us into Himself By His Spirit.
2. He Sealed us with His Spirit so that we become His Children
3. He made us Holy to Himself and Gave us His Spirit to lead us in Good Works
4. He Helped us to Nurture our Fruit of the Spirit by which our Character as His Ambassadors are nurtured and projected in the World
5. He gave us His Gifts of the Holy Spirit by which we are Empowered to Make Disciples of All nations, to Preach, to Heal the Sick and Cast out Demons as we go about Preaching the Good News to All Creations
6. He made Us His own Workmanship Created to do Good works for Him as we Represent Him Wherever we are
7. He made us to Love Him and one another as He has Loved us with a pure Love


So, above is the summary of what my Jesus has achieved in the midst of us who worship Him in Spirit and Truth!

Without Jesus, we are NOTHING!
In Jesus Christ we are made COMPLETE!

We still have some minor individual and personal shortcomings, BUT we are all work in-progress, and daily, we grow together Loving More of God and our Neighbours as ourselves.

We are ALL waiting for the second coming of Jesus Christ: so, we do the work of the ministry knowing that He will reward us according to our Faithfulness to our calling of Living a Life Worthy of His calling, Preaching the Good News and Making Disciples of all Creations.


I have nothing else to Add to this INFORMATION about the name of my church and what Jesus has achieved in the midst of us His worshipers?

Thank you for asking me of what the Lord Jesus Christ has Achieved in our Midst?

MaxInDHouse:
Personal truth you mean?😂

Truth builds up a congregation so if you can't name the congregation your so called "TRUTH" had built i'm sorry for you!😂

All these after I answered your question!!?

So run off as usual!
I am not holding you.
The Truth is NEVER afraid of Scrutiny!

MaxInDHouse:
Just as what you think too has nothing to do with me so if you have issues with anyone face them and please don't involve me because i'm not interested in any discussion with people who have no regards for those taking the lead in sacred service!🙂

So run off as usual!
I am not holding you.

The Truth is NEVER afraid of Scrutiny!

Fenrir:
​You talk about "Software," "Dimensions," and "Prophets," but you are ignoring the data of the physical world we actually live in. If your "Software" (the Spirit) were functioning as intended in Nigeria, the results would look like the values found in the very Bible you quote. Instead, we see the complete opposite.
​Forced Conformity vs. Free Will. You demand "respect" and "obedience," but the Bible emphasizes a voluntary heart change (Joshua 24:15). Forcing religion through social pressure and tradition isn't "saving" anyone; it’s just indoctrination.
​Tradition over Truth: You prioritize man-made cultural customs (like the bride price/traditional rites) over actual spiritual or legal standing. Jesus specifically rebuked this in Mark 7:8, accusing people of "setting aside the commands of God to observe human traditions."
​"Big Man" Culture vs. Servant Leadership: In Nigeria, leadership is often about being served, carried, and feared. Yet, Jesus said in Matthew 20:26 that whoever wants to be great must be a servant. Your "Prophets" live like kings while the streets are full of suffering.
​Prayer as a Weapon vs. Love Your "Back to Sender" and "Holy Ghost Fire" prayers for enemies directly contradict Matthew 5:44, which commands you to love and pray for those who persecute you.
​The Fruit of the System: You claim Norway is "godless," yet it is a society of high trust, safety for women, and care for the poor. You claim Nigeria is "Godly," yet it struggles with systemic corruption, child abuse, and human rights violations.
If your God is real and your "software" is superior, why are the most "religious" societies often the most broken, and the "unbelieving" ones the most compassionate and functional? You are starving in a land you claim is blessed, while you criticize the people who actually built the "safe streets" you say God wants.

You are muddling up several things rather than the core of the issue.
You claimed not to believe in God aka what I will as a Christian call the Uncaused-First-Cause of Everything. This is the issue and not what you expect Him to do as God based on your own understanding.

Let me oblige you by going to the fundamental claims I made.

I will start from point ONE: follow the Science and the Logic!

1. 1. [s]You are the number one proof of God's existence.[/s] [s] You exist and you are an intelligent and rational creature.[/s] A Building is the evidence of a Builder. A painting is the evidence of a Painter!

According to the Natural Laws is this statement bolded correct. Painting and Building are used from the point of view of SYSTEMS and not random arrangements.

A Computer is the Evidence of the Engineer!

Yes or No!

MaxInDHouse:
Your personal problems has nothing to do with me if you don't want to become submissive to any group teaching that's your own cup of coffee, Jesus has a group and they are working together as one team {John 17:22} thinking they shouldn't have sinners among them is not scriptural because Jesus himself said he came to call sinners not the righteous. Matthew 9:13
So in his group we don't worship him as God rather we obey him as God's only begotten Son through whose instructions we can be saved.
Whoever feels too big to humble himself under Christ's chosen (anointed) brothers can't have a place among us. Matthew 25:41-46
That's the difference between true Christians and false religionists claiming Christians! Matthew 7:12-13🙂

Whatever you think doesn't represent me either. It's easy to fight a Strawman and win.

Fenrir:
You asked for one scientific error. Here is the biggest one, Your claim that "Intelligent life requires an Intelligent Designer" is a circular argument, not a scientific law.
If complexity requires a creator, then your God the most complex entity of all would require a "Super God" to create Him. If you say "God doesn't need a creator" you’ve just admitted that complex things can exist without a builder. You broke your own rule.
​But let’s look at the "Subjective Experience" you mentioned. You say you "tune into your conscience." My "conscience" tells me that a God who demands "respect" while his followers oversee suffering, plastic choked streets, and the abuse of women and children is a human invention used to justify power.
​You call it "Software" I call it "Indoctrination." In Norway, we don't need the fear of a "Sky Daddy" to be good people, we just care about each other. If your God is real, why are the people who ignore Him doing a better job of looking after His "creation" than you are?

Pick one theme at a time!

Do you agree that in the physical Dimensions, you will be correct.

But from a higher Dimension to the physical, you would be completely wrong for you have no way to even comprehend the possibilities in the higher dimensions to the physical realities.

If you had followed the progression from 1 through 10 , you wouldn't make this mistake


I told you to READ the Book Flat Land

MaxInDHouse:
No Son is equal to his father so Jesus in the Bible is lesser than his father he is not the Almighty that position belongs to his father.
But if you keep arguing over that then you have to present the achievement of this your Almighty in the midst of ITS worshipers!🙂

I will prefer if you quote me and not insinuate what you think I believe.

Fenrir:
You didn't defeat anything just fell for your parents scam

Your problem is rejecting what you don't even understand!
Your comprehension is abysmal at best

Fenrir:
Do you hear yourself?

"God's righteous man"

Thats not a compliment, thats a cage
It needs suffering
It needs evil
It means he to needs to accept authority that cant be proven

Its also a real estate scam

And the funny thing 🤣 for all religions when you are born, the default setting is atheist until parents choose how to raise you, there is no belief at all

Its a cosmic joke
They strip away curiosity and replace it with fear of damnation and yes its a dammed nation

The kingdom of heaven that no one can prove exists

Quote a point and trash it out if you can.

DeepSight:
Be serious. I remember you as a thinker. Dont just hand wave and claim there arent valid points in what he wrote which any serious seeker of truth would not stop to ponder on.

I listed 10 scientific facts, yours is to pick one at a time and justify why it is false

DeepSight:
+
Much of what the fellow said is sadly true about the absurdity of Xristianity and it is this response of yours which rather appears escapist.

Birds of the same feathers!

Fenrir:
The real test for delusion.......

The more you actually think about Christianity, the more ridiculous it becomes.
God “loves” you, but if you don’t love him back in the exact correct way, he burns you in hell forever. Out of love, obviously.
He creates you with sin already built in, even though he hates sin.
So he puts the thing he hates inside you, then blames you for having it.
But remember, he loves you. He just hates what he deliberately put in you.
Then comes the solution.
He creates a son who is also himself, with a pre planned mission to be killed, by rules he made, to forgive humans for breaking rules he knew they would break.
He sacrifices himself to himself.
Then undoes the sacrifice three days later.
Which somehow still counts as the ultimate sacrifice.
Except it wasn’t even three days.
Friday evening to Sunday morning isn’t three days, but don’t question it. Smile, nod, amen.
Sin still exists. Suffering still exists.
But you’re told this fixed everything.
And after all of that, if you still don’t understand it properly, don’t accept it correctly, or don’t love him the right way
eternal fire.
But don’t forget
he always loves you.
The real message is simple
don’t think for yourself.
And the irony
the Serpent didn’t force anything.
Didn’t threaten. Didn’t promise. Didn’t lie.
He asked one question.
“Do you want to know?”
That was the real crime.

When your entire understanding of Christianity is based on ignorance!
SMH!

It is easy to defeat a Strawman!

Fenrir:
Funny how you accuse people of not reading something then they take apart the entire religious argument "false scientific claims" and you go quiet, i smell hypocrisy aka bullshit.

You this wannabe atheist:

There are at least 10 points raised AND
All you needed to do was to quote one of the scientific errors I stated, show why it is an error and you would have corrected a religious fanatic.

MaxInDHouse:
You started by saying your Jesus is XYZ but can't stick to what the Bible Jesus teaches in thoughts, words and actions!😀

I would like to know the XYZ that I said about Jesus that is not according to the bible.

It is easy to tell such lie on a Faceless platform like this

MaxInDHouse:
Highlighted is what Pharisees were saying against our Master Lord and King Christ Jesus {Luke 7:34} but he said such ones needs to be attended to! Matthew 9:12

Please is your own Jesus a real person or an imaginary character?

Because you are not quoting the Bible Jesus but creating another one that isn't found in the Bible!😀

This has nothing to do my my last post to you.

As reference, check below

TenQ:
Should this kind of sin be mentioned as normal in the church?



1. Can anyone see God?
2. Can God be in Heaven and on Earth concurrently?
3. Who was speaking in Heb1:8 to the Son?

MaxInDHouse:
The sin reported @ 1Corinthans 5:1 was committed by a Christian or pagan?

After he was punished {1Corinthans 5:11-13} did they welcome him back into the fold as a repentant sinner? 2Corinthians 2:5-11

This is why i keep referring to your Jesus as "IT" because there is no Jesus of your kind in the Bible. The real Jesus said he came to call sinners not the righteous {Matthew 9:13} so there is no way we will not have them in our midst but after we have shunned the wrongdoer for being unrepentant {Matthew 18:15-17} we must console him if he later shows a repentant attitude.

What Paul is saying there is clear we are to scold wrongdoers in our midst not kill them o!😂

Should this kind of sin be mentioned as normal in the church?



1. Can anyone see God?
2. Can God be in Heaven and on Earth concurrently?
3. Who was speaking in Heb1:8 to the Son?

MaxInDHouse:
Did Jesus say there won't be any sinner among his disciples?

YES or NO?🙂

Are you trying to justify ur P*****p fphil lick tendencies?

There some sins even unbelievers scarcely commit: it is a shame when anyone affiliated with Jesus is found in them

1Cor 5:1:
"It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife."

MaxInDHouse:
Did Jesus say there won't be sinners among his sheep?

Go, then, and learn what this means: ‘I want mercy, and not sacrifice.’ For I came to call, not righteous people, but sinners.” Matthew 9:13

I know that is why you refused to come up with the name of any known group but Jesus never condemn anyone due to sin rather what he condemned and told us to shun is UNREPENTANT wrongdoer! Matthew 18:15-17

So can you confidently mention the name of your church now🙂

It's okay that Jesus couldn't install the fruit of the Holy Spirit in you. It's no wonder that we see the counterfeit fruit which is the works of the flesh

Gal 5:19-21:
"Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, jealousies, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Contentions, murders, drunkenness, revelings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God."


Do you want us to continue flogging this or you choose to focus on topics and issues avoided ?



Help Bookmark and Truthseeker10 by answering the questions

1. Can anyone see God?
2. Can God be in Heaven and on Earth concurrently?
3. Who was speaking in Heb1:8 to the Son?