₦airaland Forum

Truthseeker10:
🤣🤣🤣Baba simply answer the question na.
So the "God" in Hebrews 1:8 did not mean "Almighty God"?

Apologize for telling lies!
Don't you have shame?


Have a nice day!

MaxInDHouse:
So apart from audio achievements like all other religions do claim what can we see as evidence of your Jesus in the midst of its worshipers?

Note that all types of religions also make claims that's not visible please mention one thing that everyone can see as proof of your Jesus!🙂

You asked the question:
What Has Jesus Achieved in the midst of Us His Children!?

I have answered you about the Achievement of the Lord Jesus Christ in my church and if you are not satisfied, too bad.


My response was Clear and Detailed, your dissatisfaction my be an indication that either
1. Your Jesus is completely different from my Jesus. If course, your Jesus is An Angel you call Michael
2. You don't even know the Achievement of the real Jesus Christ in the Life of His own.

This is an irreconcilable difference as Light and Darkness cannot coexist.

Truthseeker10:
Lol....look at this man. So the "God" in Hebrews 1:8 dies not mean "Almighty God"?

Please go in shame.
So, you LIED!
You won't answer my questions

MaxInDHouse:
What is the name of your church and tell me what your Jesus has achieved in the midst of its His worshipers?

I belong to "The Church of Jesus Christ" ( I won't tell you the city I reside but I am in Nigeria)

What Has Jesus Achieved in the midst of Us His Children!?
1. He Bought us with the costly Price of His Blood on the Cross and Adopted Us into Himself By His Spirit.
2. He Sealed us with His Spirit so that we become His Children
3. He made us Holy to Himself and Gave us His Spirit to lead us in Good Works
4. He Helped us to Nurture our Fruit of the Spirit by which our Character as His Ambassadors are nurtured and projected in the World
5. He gave us His Gifts of the Holy Spirit by which we are Empowered to Make Disciples of All nations, to Preach, to Heal the Sick and Cast out Demons as we go about Preaching the Good News to All Creations
6. He made Us His own Workmanship Created to do Good works for Him as we Represent Him Wherever we are
7. He made us to Love Him and one another as He has Loved us with a pure Love


So, above is the summary of what my Jesus has achieved in the midst of us who worship Him in Spirit and Truth!

Without Jesus, we are NOTHING!
In Jesus Christ we are made COMPLETE!

We still have some minor individual and personal shortcomings, BUT we are all work in-progress, and daily, we grow together Loving More of God and our Neighbours as ourselves.

We are ALL waiting for the second coming of Jesus Christ: so, we do the work of the ministry knowing that He will reward us according to our Faithfulness to our calling of Living a Life Worthy of His calling, Preaching the Good News and Making Disciples of all Creations.


I have nothing else to Add to this INFORMATION about the name of my church and what Jesus has achieved in the midst of us His worshipers?

Thank you for asking me of what the Lord Jesus Christ has Achieved in our Midst?

MaxInDHouse:
You have not answered the question i asked you so until you do there is nothing further to discuss with you!



The person i quoted understand what is called SARCASM!🙂

When did you ask me any question?
It's been months ago I chatted with you last.


So, it was sarcasm!?
LOL!!
I believe you!!! LOL!!!!!!!

MaxInDHouse:
Expecting some aimless arguments?

Ọmọ count me out.

Jesus is not the Almighty, can't be the Almighty and will never ever be the Almighty.

So continue with your fellow debators!😂

Not with you sir. I said reach out to your fellow elders for discussion.

MaxInDHouse:
You don't get it Jesus is the Almighty God it's when he is the son that he stop being Almighty God!😂

Two opposite statements by the same person within a space of just 1 hour
Are you CONFUSED!?

MaxInDHouse:
Funny guy!😂

So glad you are happy this morning.






But it is STILL good that you ask the other Elders or the Board of Governors of the JW to review these questions below


1. Was Jesus TEMPORARILY the Almighty God OR
2. was Jesus TEMPORARILY the Son?

3. Can the Almighty be TEMPORAL?


Have a nice day!
You truely made my day with this positive change of stance! The Truth will definitely set you FREE once you adopt it.

MaxInDHouse:
Don't worry about me jàre focus on your fellow debator count me out!😂

No problem!
At least you are coming closer to the Truth. One of these days, you will be free.

Shalom!




But it is good that you ask the other Elders to review these questions



So,
1. Was Jesus TEMPORARILY the Almighty God OR
2. was Jesus TEMPORARILY the Son?

3. Can the Almighty be TEMPORAL?


I am still notwithstanding happy for your new conclusion it shows that you are now learning the correct doctrine of Christ progressively.

MaxInDHouse:
You don't get it Jesus is the Almighty God it's when he is the son that he stop being Almighty God! 😂

Wonders will never end!?

So, after all these years and back and forth, you now admit that Jesus is the Almighty God except when he is the son!?

So,
Was Jesus TEMPORARILY the Almighty God OR
was Jesus TEMPORARILY the Son?

Can the Almighty be TEMPORAL?


I am happy for your new conclusion it shows that you are now learning the correct doctrine of Christ progressively.

Truthseeker10:
Are you denying that you did not claim that Hebrews 1:8 does not refer to the Son as an Almighty God with the screenshot evidence that I have shown you?

Did you not clearly tell me that The verse is not saying that the son is AN Almighty God?

Is this not the same reason sonmvayina ended discussion with you?

Why are you repeating yourself, please shamelessly like a broken record quote EXACTLY where I said that "Jesus is not the "Almighty God" in Hebrews 1:8"


Did Hebrews 1: 8 anywhere say that "the son is AN Almighty God?"

Truthseeker10:
I have given you screenshot evidence of you saying that Hebrews 1:8 does not say that Jesus is the Almighty God.

so if Jesus is not an Almighty God according to Hebrews 1:8, what is the essence of the verse calling Jesus "God"?

Which part of the English language do you not understand

I still challenge you to quote EXACTLY where I said that "Jesus is not the "Almighty God" in Hebrews 1:8" otherwise, you are the TRUE son of your father.

Truthseeker10:
Below is your reply to my question concerning Hebrews 1:8.

I still challenge you to quote EXACTLY where I said that "Jesus is not the "Almighty God" in Hebrews 1:8" otherwise, you are the TRUE son of your father.

Truthseeker10:
If Hebrews 1:8 is not referring to Jesus as "God" to mean the "Almighty God", what kind of "God" could Hebrews 1:8 be referring to Jesus?

Why repeat your question if I had already answered it? Quote me please....the son of his father!

I thought you said I claimed that "Jesus is not the "Almighty God" in Hebrews 1:8"

So, did Heb 1:8 read that the son is AN Almighty God? It is a YES or NO answer!

Mr UnruthSeeker10, respond to my challenge or apologise!

sonmvayina:
odeeeeeh.
so why list it ?

you listed and went on to bold the three of them, so i guessed that's what you are implying...

You seem to have a preconceived interpretation of what you think I am saying.



so can you explain your point and the passage you posted.

No need!

Truthseeker10:
🤣🤣🤣look at this man......he has started deviating after shooting himself on the foot by claiming that Jesus is not the "Almighty God" in Hebrews 1:8. Are you telling me now that you cannot explain Hebrews 1:8? Why are you using questions to deviate from this verse that you are teaching me? Kindly answer the below.

Since you claim that Hebrews 1:8 does not refer to Jesus as the "Almighty God" by calling him "God", what kind of "God" could Hebrews 1:8 be referring to Jesus?

I challenge you to quote EXACTLY where I said that "Jesus is not the "Almighty God" in Hebrews 1:8" otherwise, you are the TRUE son of your father.


John 8:44:
"You are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father you will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and stayed not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it."

By their Fruit, they are known!
Satan is a LIAR!!!!

Truthseeker10:
Below is your answer to the question that I asked about Hebrews 1:8.

Below is also a screenshot from bible hub in reference to Psalm 45:6 which Hebrews 1:8 is gotten from.

If Hebrews 1:8 is not referring to Jesus as "God" to mean the "Almighty God", what kind of "God" could Hebrews 1:8 be referring to Jesus?

You did NOT answer my questions. I have asked you three Questions

TenQ:
State exactly what you read the Bible saying my friend and add nothing.

What did you read?

Why do you find it difficult to answer my questions

1. Can anyone see God?
2. Can God be in Heaven and on Earth concurrently?
3. Who was speaking in Heb1:8 to the Son?


The first two questions are YES or NO and the third Question required the Name or Identity of the one speaking!

Again
1. Can anyone see God?
2. Can God be in Heaven and on Earth concurrently?
3. Who was speaking in Heb1:8 to the Son?


Answer them by number so that we both can be clear that the questions are answered indeed.

sonmvayina:
hh

you don't seem to understand it..

when God breathed on the man he has made with dust, it became a living soul.
we are all living soul, we do not have a soul.
when a soul expires, the body is buried and it returns to the earth and the spirit goes back to. God who owns it.
like the psalmist says in psalm 104:29-31
"sent forth your spirit and they are created and fill the earth, take it and they die and return back to dust....
we are all living soul, we do not have a soul....
you only need two adults (male and female) to create a human being.

Until you show me where I said WE HAVE A SOUL, have a nice day

Truthseeker10:
Baba TenQ don sharperly delete his response 🤣🤣🤣

TenQ:
State exactly what you read the Bible saying my friend and add nothing.

What did you read?

Why do you find it difficult to answer my questions

1. Can anyone see God?
2. Can God be in Heaven and on Earth concurrently?
3. Who was speaking in Heb1:8 to the Son?


The first two questions are YES or NO and the third Question required the Name or Identity of the one speaking!

Dishonesty clearly runs in some people's veins
Can you show me exactly when I claimed that
" the God in Hebrews 1:8 Is not the Almighty God."!
OR that
"the God Is a smaller God compared to the God that anointed him in verse 9"
Where!?

All I did was to show you scriptures without my personal comments but like the son of the one chased out of heaven you needed to tell lies to advance your Strawman.

Unfortunately, you clearly displayed your nature of the one chased out of Heaven.

FEAR and IGNORANCE will not allow you to answer my questions

Truthseeker10:
So is the verse saying that the son is a smaller God compared to the God that anointed him?

State exactly what you read the Bible saying my friend and add nothing.

What did you read?

Why do you find it difficult to answer my questions

1. Can anyone see God?
2. Can God be in Heaven and on Earth concurrently?
3. Who was speaking in Heb1:8 to the Son?


The first two questions are YES or NO and the third Question required the Name or Identity of the one speaking!

Truthseeker10:
So is the verse above saying that the son is an Almighty God and that same son has a God that anointed him according to Hebrews 1:9?

No sir!

The verse is not saying that the Son is AN Almighty God. Please read again!


And probably help Bookmark by answering the questions

1. Can anyone see God?
2. Can God be in Heaven and on Earth concurrently?
3. Who was speaking in Heb1:8 to the Son?


It is important!

Truthseeker10:
So can you too kindly explain the verse that you quoted?

The verse is explained in Hebrew 1:8


Heb 1:8-13:
"But to the Son he said, Your throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a scepter of righteousness is the scepter of your kingdom.
You have loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even your God, has anointed you with the oil of gladness above your fellows.
And, You, Lord, in the beginning have laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of your hands: They shall perish; but you remain; and they all shall wax old as does a garment; And as a clothing shall you fold them up, and they shall be changed: but you are the same, and your years shall not fail. But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make your enemies your footstool?"


Do you care to explain the verse in case Hebrew 1:8 explanation is not explicit enough for you?

The interlinear is attached for your perusal!

sonmvayina:
You did not provide any scripture to back it up..

Body made from dust + breath of God (spirit of God) = a living soul.
We are a soul, we do not have a soul.

When a soul expires, the spirit goes to who gave it and the body is buried so that it can go to the earth. Like I said, we are all Gods spirit experiencing human life in multiple ways..

You seem to have a preconceived interpretation of what you think I am saying.

I never said anywhere that WE HAVE A SOUL.
The language I used is
Our Spirit
Our Soul
Our Body

1Ths 5:23:
"And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."

TenQ:
No sir!
God's Holy Spirit in us is what gives us life eternal and His image: aka our spiritual identity .
Our Soul is what gives us our personal identity
Our Body is what gives us our physical identity

Truthseeker10:
Are you teaching us here that an Almighty God has a God that anoints him?

I didn't say that o!
I only quoted the scripture for him to explain

sonmvayina:
That holy Spirit is what is within us all.
we are all God's holy Spirit experiencing life in multiple ways.
we are God's spirit+ body from earth.
when we expire, spirit goes to God
and body is buried for it to go to the earth.

all these unnecessary ignorance disguised as wisdom is sickening...

see Ecclesiastes 12:7
Psalm 104:29-31

No sir!
God's Holy Spirit in us is what gives us life eternal and His image: aka our spiritual identity .
Our Soul is what gives us our personal identity
Our Body is what gives us our physical identity

sonmvayina:
For the last time TenQ, God is not "a thing", God is "Everything" (singular). we are part of God And God is part of us.....

For free: God is the universal divine consciousness.

Where did you see or hear me call God a thing?

Everything physical and spiritual is included inside God

In God we live and move and have our existence. This is why God as the Holy Spirit is Omnipresent.

TenQ:
Normally, I shouldn't respond to your question but I feel led to answer you without using scripture.


1. You are the number one proof of God's existence. You exist and you are an intelligent and rational creature. A Building is the evidence of a Builder. A painting is the evidence of a Painter!
2. There is a scientific evidence that the universe had not being for ever, it has an age of about 13.6billion years old
3. There is a scientific evidence that time, space and matter appeared simultaneously at the origin of the universe expansion
4. There exist a scientific law of entropy that prevents you to self assemble from nothing
5. Because of entropy we know that the universe had not always existed.
6. There is a scientific law of cause and effect operating in the universe
7. Based on this, the Universe is the effect of a cause.
8. The cause must have happened before the universe, meaning that the cause CANNOT operate on any physical or chemical laws.
9. This Primary Cause is what for now we call the Uncaused-First-Cause of Everything .
10. This Cause must be Spaceless, Timeless, Matterless and Intelligent because every law of physics and chemistry came into being only after the universe came into being.

This Uncaused-First-Cause of Everything is what we Christians call God. He cannot be Seen, not touched because He operates in a Far much Higher DIMENSIONS than the physical dimensions.

We call His Dimension the Spiritual Dimension.

A Human beings is a Biological Organism with a SOFTWARE called the SOUL. He also has a Kernel Software called the SPIRIT.

With his Spirit, he knows that God exists and has given him a Conscience for good and bad/right and wrong.

God has chosen some men to act as intermediaries between Him and us humans all through the earth history. He backs them up with His power and we know them as Prophets, they tell us more about God so that each one of us can have our SUBJECTIVE EXPERIENCE with Him. From them we know that Humans are Spiritually Dead and are subject to decay just as the Universe is slowly dying.

So, if you are looking for God, you cannot see Him not experience Him from your physical dimension. You have to tune into your conscience. Inside God we all exist including both the physical realm and the heavenly realms


Have you read the Book Flat Land
I ask you to read it:
Flatland: It is A Romance of Many Dimensions and a satirical novella written by Edwin A. Abbott

Summary of note: A person in a 2D world will argue till tomorrow that the 3D world doesn't exist. Miracle exist in the 2D world when someone in the 3D space changes something in the 2D space.


My Questions:
1. If you think there is nothing like the Uncaused-First-Cause of Everything , bring your evidence as
It is scientifically impossible to have an infinite regress of Cause and Effect
2. The DNA is a compendium or Library of Data, Information and Instructions. Tell me if it is possible for a computer program to write itself given an infinite time to juggle alphanumeric characters to form the codes.
*Don't forget that a simultaneous existence of the information code and information decoder must also exist at the machine level.



I leave you to your conscience.


God loves you and He wants you saved!

God is NOT the sky-daddy you think, You are INSIDE Him. You Live in Him. It's like a fish saying it water and air doesn't exist.

Anniie4u:
Please o! Is this normal ?
Marrying your cousin

It is allowed in Islam although cousin marriage is not very common in Nigeria.

Cousin marriages are common in the North African, East African and Arab Muslim nations

I will stop after this as you are trying too hard to repeat yourself and be correct. Unfortunately, what is wrong cannot be made un-wrong!
LOL!!

honesttalk21:
Your attempt at mockery can't mask the fact that you've committed some fundamental errors in logic and ignored readily available information. Let's break down each of your claims:

1. We Need Mothers of Allah' to Interpret Babblings

You argue that the Qur'an is so unclear that scholars are needed to reinterpret its "babblings."

But the reality is alll ancient texts require interpretation. Even the Bible admits in 2 Peter 3:15-16 stating Paul's letters contain things hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort. Christianity has
over 45,000 different denominations, each with its own interpretations, sometimes contradictory. You should do better to address or concede.

Centuries worth of councils, creeds, and systematic theologies are dedicated to interpretation. Entire academic fields (hermeneutics, exegesis) focused solely on interpreting scripture.

If needing scholars to interpret means the text consists of unclear babblings then the Bible is equally guilty.

Furthermore, your phrase mothers of Allah is just crude blasphemy, not a legitimate argument.

Until we can understand the Qur'an without you Muslims re-interpretating Allah's words to mean something different.

honesttalk21:
2. Nothing in the verses or Qur'an states what you Say. Your argument that my explanation is made up and doesn't come from the Qur'an is untrue since what Qur'an 17:1 actually says is exalted is He who took His Servant by night from al-Masjid al-Haram to al-Masjid al-Aqsa, whose surroundings We blessed, to show him of Our signs.

This verse explicitly states:

1. Al-Masjid al-Haram which is the Sacred Mosque located in Mecca and universally understood.

Who told you that the sacred mosque is in Mecca. Does Allah have only one messenger or when did Allah named a particular mosque as the sacred mosque? The mosque is Sacred to who? Is it Moses?

honesttalk21:
2. Al-Masjid al-Aqsa is the farthest Mosque and its name is right there in the verse.

Who determined that a mosque is the farthest mosque? Was it Allah? If the mosque at Jerusalem is the farthest mosque, then your islamic claim of 124,000 Messengers of Allah is a FABRICATION

honesttalk21:
3. Whose surroundings We blessed means the area around al-Aqsa is blessed.

When did Allah bless the surrounding and why?
If the identity of the farthest mosque is s unknown other than by what you Muslims say, how can we be sure when and how Allah blessed it's surrounding?

honesttalk21:
4. His Servant isIdentified throughout the Qur'an as Muhammad pbuh (57:19, 18:1, 72:19).

You forget that Jibril is Allah's servant and so is Moses, Aaron, David etc. Mohammed's name was mentioned only four times in the Qur'an.
Sorry!

honesttalk21:
The Qur'an does state these things. The issue is that you want more detail than the verse provides, which isn't the same as the verse being unclear.

3. When Did Allah Bless the Surroundings of the Farthest Mosque?

Qur'an 17:1:Whose surroundings We blessed.
The verse describes an already-existing blessed state, not a specific moment when the blessing occurred.

The surrounding area (Jerusalem/Temple Mount) has been considered blessed throughout both Biblical and Islamic history.

Biblically Psalm 132:13-14: "For the LORD has chosen Zion... 'This is my resting place forever, 2 Chronicles 7:16:I have chosen and consecrated this house [Temple] so that My name may be there forever, Zechariah 2:12:The LORD will... choose Jerusalem again.

You have to come to the bible for explanation of the eloquently written book by Allah? Don't forget that you claim that the original Torah , Injeel and Zabur are lost!

The blessed land is [b]Mount Sinai my dear and it was with Moses.[/b]
Exo 19:9-13:
"And the LORD said to Moses, See, I come to you in a thick cloud, that the people may hear when I speak with you, and believe you for ever. And Moses told the words of the people to the LORD. And the LORD said to Moses, Go to the people, and sanctify them to day and to morrow, and let them wash their clothes, And be ready against the third day: for the third day the LORD will come down in the sight of all the people on mount Sinai. And you shall set bounds to the people round about, saying, Take heed to yourselves, that you go not up into the mount, or touch the border of it: whoever touches the mount shall be surely put to death: There shall not an hand touch it, but he shall surely be stoned, or shot through; whether it be beast or man, it shall not live: when the trumpet sounds long, they shall come up to the mount."


The Temple of Solomon the as Blessed but not the surrounding except you will show me the verse.

So, you see how explicit the God of Moses is unlike the God of Mohammed

honesttalk21:
Islamic understanding is that the site's blessed status predates the specific mosque structure. It's the location itself that's sacred (the place where Abraham, David, Solomon, and Jesus worshipped), not dependent on whether a building existed there in 621 CE.

Your comparison to Moses on Sinai actually proves my point. Sinai became holy at a specific event, but Jerusalem's holiness spans millennia through multiple prophets and revelations.

Story story.
I gave you a scriptural evidence. I need yours from the perfectly written Qur'an.

What kind of author will name a subject without introducing it in his book?

honesttalk21:
4. What Name Is This Farthest Mosque Called in Jerusalem?

The name is given in the verse: as al-Masjid al-Aqsa (The Farthest Mosque). You're essentially asking but what's its other name?

Why would it need another name? Think of it like this: The White House has its official name (describes its characteristic: a white building). The Forbidden City by its official name (describes its characteristic: forbidden access). The Holy Land has its official name (describes it: sacred). So Al-Masjid al-Aqsa is the Farthest Place of Prostration describing its characteristic as the farthest sacred site from Mecca.

You're demanding a proper name as if the Farthest Mosque isn't a proper name.? It is.

The name of the farthest mosque is called "farthest mosque"!?
I remember In asked a boy a question!
What is the name of your daddy?
He said. "The name of my dadd is Daddy!"

You can see how sensible your answer is.

honesttalk21:
5. Any Pre-Islamic historical evidence for both Mosques?

You're asking for pre-Islamic evidence for mosques. But that's a category error. Masjid in Arabic simply means place of prostration (sujud). It doesn't exclusively mean Islamic mosque building. So, pre-Islamic "mosques" (places of prostration/worship) would include
Al-Masjid al-Haram (Mecca).

In Islamic belief, the site dates back to Abraham building the Kaaba (Genesis 16-17 timeframe). By pre-Islamic Arab sources the Kaaba existed and was venerated for centuries before Islam.

The historical evidence has Mecca as a well-known pilgrimage site in pre-Islamic Arabia.

Al-Masjid al-Aqsa (Jerusalem) has the biblical Temple Mount which is Solomon's Temple (1 Kings 6), rebuilt as the Second Temple destroyed in 70 CE.

Byzantine sources show Jerusalem was a major Christian holy site with the Church of the Holy Sepulchre, etc.

The Qur'an references this sacred site, not necessarily a physical mosque building in 621 CE.

The farthest place of prostration refers to the Temple Mount area where prophets worshipped (Abraham, David, Solomon, and Jesus in Biblical accounts).

You're essentially demanding Islamic mosque evidence pre-Islam, which is logically impossible in the exact context you demand. The site has ancient sacred history; the Islamic interpretation begins with Muhammad pbuh.

So. You don't have any evidence that a place exist in history called the farthest mosque!?
I am asking for pre-islamic historical proving that places of such names exist!
QED!

If I told you that the national mosque at Abuja is the farthest mosque, won't you ask me for evidence?

honesttalk21:
6. Identity of Servant Not Introduced by Allah

By Your argument you say Allah doesn't specify who His Servant is. But the Qur'an repeatedly identifies Muhammad pbuh as His Servant. Do you expect that chapter to refer to a different servant or prophet?

Quran 72:19 states when the Servant of Allah stood up calling upon Him..."

Quran 18:1 Praise be to Allah who revealed the Book to His Servant ...

Quran 57:9:He sends down clear verses to His Servant...

In the context of Surah 17:1:The entire Qur'an is about Muhammad pbuh's prophethood. His Servant in a passage about a night journey is universally understood to be Muhammad pbuh by both the original audience and all subsequent readers. Perharps you should feel free to boldly say who that should be if you have justifiable and verifiable proof.

Do you expect Allah to repeat Muhammad pbuh in every single verse? That's not how literature or scripture works.

Think of it like this: The U.S. Constitution refers to the President without naming Washington, Trump, Obama or Clinton every time. The context makes it clear who is being referred to.

Allah has only one servant and he is Mohamed alone!
The book of Allah is indeed eloquent!

honesttalk21:
7. Location of al-Masjid al-Haram Not Mentioned

Your argument that the Qur'an doesn't say where al-Masjid al-Haram is located but this is simply untrue. Al-Masjid al-Haram is the Sacred Mosque in Mecca. Let's be clear about this, because every early Muslim understood as Muhammad pbuh spent over 40 years living in Mecca. The Kaaba had been the central pilgrimage site for centuries. Muslims face it in prayer five times a day. The Qur'an was revealed there and makes repeated references to Mecca (48:24, 3:96).

Are you seriously suggesting that the Qur'an should spell it out like this al-Masjid al-Haram, located at coordinates X, in the city known as Mecca'?

That's not how any text from that era functions. The Bible doesn't give you Jerusalem's GPS coordinates, but we all know where it is.

The people who first heard the Qur'an knew exactly what al-Masjid al-Haram was. Your lack of understanding is your issue, not a flaw in the text.

We started with how eloquent linguistically the Qur'an is isn't it.
Allah I ask is the evidence from the Qur'an of the location. Since you say it's not true, where in the Qur'an is the location of the mosques?

honesttalk21:
8. The Claim of Inconsistent Pronoun Use which I shouldn't continue to readress going by your repeatedly inconsigruent mockery but being in this group

Take a look at Quran 17:1: Exalted is He who took His Servant by night... whose surroundings We blessed, to show him of Our signs. Indeed, He is the Hearing, the Seeing.

Here's how it breaks down: He/His in singular, third person refers to Allah.

We/Our in plural, first person also refers to Allah (a majestic plural).

him in singular object refers to the Servant Muhammad pbuh.

This is a standard feature of Semitic and applicable to regular writing and extends to the plural of majesty.

Think about this Biblical parallel in Genesis 1:26-27 which reads let Us make man in Our image (plural). So God created man in Hisown image (singular).

See the pattern? The text switches between singular and plural when referring to God within the same passage.

If you're going to call Qur'an 17:1 unclear rambling, then you have to apply that same label to Genesis 1:26-27. Either be consistent in your criticism, or admit you're applying different rules.

Let me help Allah by rewriting the verse in a clear manner.

I will write it in two literally styles
1. The Original
Qur'an 17:1
"Exalted is He who took His Servant by night from al-Masjid al-Haram to al-Masjid al-Aqsa, whose surroundings We have blessed, to show him of Our 5 signs. Indeed, He is the Hearing, the Seeing."


2. First style: Someone speaking for Allah
Qur'anx 17:1
"Exalted is He who took His Servant by night from al-Masjid al-Haram in Mecca to al-Masjid al-Aqsa in Jerusalem, whose surroundings He has blessed, to show his servant Mohammed of his signs. Indeed, He is the Hearing, the Seeing."

All the pronouns He and His belong to Allah and the servant Mohammed was shown the signs

3. Second Style: Allah speaking
Qur'anx 17:1
"Exalted is Us who took Our Servant by night from al-Masjid al-Haram in Mecca to al-Masjid al-Aqsa in Jerusalem, whose surroundings We have blessed, to show our servant Mohammed of our signs. Indeed, We are the Hearing, the Seeing."

All the pronouns Us, We and Our belong to Allah and the servant Mohammed was shown the signs


Can you see how eloquent my corrections are compared with the original?

honesttalk21:
9. Your confusions are fully addressed.

You claim:

1. The identity of the servant isn't clear.
The Qur'an consistently identifies Muhammad pbuh as His Servant (18:1, 57:9, 72:19); it's clear from the context.

No!

honesttalk21:
2. The location/name of the farthest mosque isn't mentioned. It's named in the verse itself is al-Masjid al-Aqsa. The location is the Temple Mount in Jerusalem, a site of immense importance in the Abrahamic tradition.

No location mentioned.

honesttalk21:
3. The location/name of al-Masjid al-Haram isn't mentioned. Everyone at the time knew it; it's the Sacred Mosque in Mecca, housing the Kaaba, and it's referenced throughout the Qur'an.

No location mentioned anywhere in the Qur'an!

honesttalk21:
4. The pronouns 'He,' 'Him,' and 'His' are switched without explanation.
This is the standard Semitic plural of majesty, just like in Genesis 1:26-27. The grammar is clear in context. These aren't legitimate problems. You're simply failing to understand.

The contextthe shared knowledge of the people who first heard the Qur'an)

The genre: (an ancient religious text, not a modern instruction manual)

Semitic literary conventions: (like the plural of majesty and understanding identity from context)

It isn't. It is a messed up changes of pronouns which I have corrected for you Muslims.

honesttalk21:
10. The Mothers of Allah Insult is a sign of Weakness

Resorting to crude insults (mothers of Allah,toddler babbling) shows that you lack any real arguments.

This tactic reveals
Dishonestyusing mockery instead of engaging with the content)

Double standards: (the Bible requires interpretation too; the existence of 45,000 denominations proves that)

Ignorance: (demanding modern precision from a 7th-century text)

Every point you've tried to make has been answered:

Sorry for the apparent insults, it is because Muslims do not follow Allah or his words. Muslims follow the Islamic scholars interpretation of what Allah said.

Allah gave the Qur'an in Arabic so that Arab Muslims can understand the Qur'an BUT what we observe is that even Arab Muslims are confused about the Qur'an and so Arab Muslims need several Tafsirs also in Arabic to understand the words Allah says is easy to understand.

honesttalk21:
✓ The verse names both locations (al-Masjid al-Haram and al-Masjid al-Aqsa).

✓ The Qur'an consistently identifies the Servant as Muhammad.

✓ The surroundings are blessed (Jerusalem has a sacred history spanning thousands of years).

✓ The shifts in pronouns are standard Semitic rhetoric (also found in Genesis).

✓ People at the time understood the context (just as Bible readers understand that "the President" refers to the current officeholder).

Your mockery isn't a refutation.

You're demanding:

GPS coordinates for 7th-century locations.

Every verse to repeat obvious information.

Modern technical precision from an ancient religious text.

Standards that you don't apply to the Bible.

You're ignoring:

The context and shared knowledge of the audience the Qur'an was originally intended for.

Semitic literary conventions (which the Bible also uses).

The fact that needing interpretation applies equally to the Bible (2 Peter 3:15-16).

The confusion isn't in the Qur'an it's in your unrealistic expectations and refusal to be consistent in how you judge it.

Your babbling insult is actually a projection of your own failings. The text is clear to anyone who approaches it honestly, taking into account its literary and historical context.

I have helped you correct Quran 17:1
You were just repeating yourself without providing solid evidence from the Qur'an of my questions.

Don't forget that the subject was about the LINGUISTICALLY and ELOQUENTLY written Qur'an .

I brought Qur'an 17:1 as a test which showed that Muslims make unsubstantiated claims about the Qur'an and of Islam.

Fenrir:
None of that is evidence its belief and no more

You didn't even read this! These are logical and scientific evidences that you can easily falsify or admit it validity.
SMH!

When Emptiness is masked by loud Noises!

But have it on record that you despised the knowledge that would have saved you.

Have a nice day!

Normally, I shouldn't respond to your question but I feel led to answer you without using scripture.

Fenrir:
What proof have any of you got that any god exists?

You are all wrong until you can prove it to the entire world all at the same time, if your gods are real and all powerful what is the excuse for hiding?

1. You are the number one proof of God's existence. You exist and you are an intelligent and rational creature. A Building is the evidence of a Builder. A painting is the evidence of a Painter!
2. There is a scientific evidence that the universe had not being for ever, it has an age of about 13.6billion years old
3. There is a scientific evidence that time, space and matter appeared simultaneously at the origin of the universe expansion
4. There exist a scientific law of entropy that prevents you to self assemble from nothing
5. Because of entropy we know that the universe had not always existed.
6. There is a scientific law of cause and effect operating in the universe
7. Based on this, the Universe is the effect of a cause.
8. The cause must have happened before the universe, meaning that the cause CANNOT operate on any physical or chemical laws.
9. This Primary Cause is what for now we call the Uncaused-First-Cause of Everything .
10. This Cause must be Spaceless, Timeless, Matterless and Intelligent because every law of physics and chemistry came into being only after the universe came into being.

This Uncaused-First-Cause of Everything is what we Christians call God. He cannot be Seen, not touched because He operates in a Far much Higher DIMENSIONS than the physical dimensions.

We call His Dimension the Spiritual Dimension.

A Human beings is a Biological Organism with a SOFTWARE called the SOUL. He also has a Kernel Software called the SPIRIT.

With his Spirit, he knows that God exists and has given him a Conscience for good and bad/right and wrong.

God has chosen some men to act as intermediaries between Him and us humans all through the earth history. He backs them up with His power and we know them as Prophets, they tell us more about God so that each one of us can have our SUBJECTIVE EXPERIENCE with Him. From them we know that Humans are Spiritually Dead and are subject to decay just as the Universe is slowly dying.

So, if you are looking for God, you cannot see Him not experience Him from your physical dimension. You have to tune into your conscience. Inside God we all exist including both the physical realm and the heavenly realms


Have you read the Book Flat Land
I ask you to read it:
Flatland: It is A Romance of Many Dimensions and a satirical novella written by Edwin A. Abbott

Summary of note: A person in a 2D world will argue till tomorrow that the 3D world doesn't exist. Miracle exist in the 2D world when someone in the 3D space changes something in the 2D space.


My Questions:
1. If you think there is nothing like the Uncaused-First-Cause of Everything , bring your evidence as
It is scientifically impossible to have an infinite regress of Cause and Effect
2. The DNA is a compendium or Library of Data, Information and Instructions. Tell me if it is possible for a computer program to write itself given an infinite time to juggle alphanumeric characters to form the codes.
*Don't forget that a simultaneous existence of the information code and information decoder must also exist at the machine level.



I leave you to your conscience.


God loves you and He wants you saved!

God is NOT the sky-daddy you think, You are INSIDE Him. You Live in Him. It's like a fish saying it water and air doesn't exist.

honesttalk21:
That assertion simply doesn't hold up, either historically or logically.

1. The Two Powers idea was hardly a mainstream Jewish belief.

Rabbinic texts, like Sanhedrin 38b, clearly denounce the concept of Two Powers in Heaven as heresy. It arose from the fringes of speculation, not from the core of Jewish thought, and it was condemned both before and after Jesus.

2. The Shema existed long before Christianity.

The LORD is one (Deuteronomy 6:4) was the defining creed of Second Temple Judaism, a daily recitation. If Jews truly believed in a divine plurality, the Shema would be meaningless and it isn't.

3. Your claim about motives is unfounded.

Modern Judaism didn't reject divine plurality to dodge any guilt related to Jesus. The rejection stems from its violation of strict monotheism, the same reason it was rejected even before Christianity came into being.

4. You're using a heresy to try and justify orthodoxy.

Using a condemned Jewish heresy to prop up Christian theology is like using Gnosticism to define Christianity. It doesn't prove anything.

5. Muhammad pbuh was clear about not introducing anything new.

The Prophet pbuh stated that he brought no new god, only the religion of Abrahamic monotheism.

So, let's address this directly:

Did Jesus ever say, I am introducing a new concept of God? Or was he redefined by later theology?

The bottom line is this:

Fringe Jewish ideas isn't mainstream Jewish belief

Heresy isn't doctrine

Rewriting history isn't a valid argument

Strict monotheism was the standard.

Islam aligns with it.

Your claim? Not so much.

Islam can definitely not survive without Strawman Argument.

A mainstream Jewish belief was Rejected for a new one that Rejected Jesus as the Messiah BUT you think this is the correct Judaism?
Are you aware that those who killed Jesus as your so-called now the mainstream Judaism?
Since you think the so-called mainstream Judaism is correct, Why don't you follow the religion of the Jews rather than Islam?

The fundamental Law of Christians is summarised in the Christ's Expanded SHEMA below:
Mar 12:29-31:
"And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength: this is the first commandment. And the second is like, namely this, You shall love your neighbor as yourself. There is none other commandment greater than these."

Mr Honesttruth21, Is the above an EXPANDED SHEMA or not for Christians?

Trinity had always been about ONE God who exists simultaneously in three Dimensions
BUT
For Islam to be able to argue, they must say that Trinity is THREE Gods united as one.

When you base your argument on false premises, how can it even hold.


Mohammed's claim is baseless!
So are the claims of the Grail Message and the Eckankar! Claims mean NOTHING if the IDENTITY of their God is DIFFERENT!

Your so-called strict monotheism has boxes Allah into a box of not being Omnipresent nor Omnipotent. This is not YHWH as He is Omnipresent, Omnipotent and Omniscient.
The bottom line,
The Identity of Allah and the Identity of YHWH are completely DIFFERENT
You Muslims want assocation with YHWH by force unfortunately, it cannot happen.

As reward in paradise, the Al-Makr will give you ..,so many things seun's bots doesn't want me to talk about but which you relish.
Bottom line: Even our Paradise is Different

Must you die before knowing the truth?
Do you think God will pardon you because you assumed it was Him all along you worship?

Good luck to those who invent a God whose Taoheed is NOT different from the Taoheed of Iblis!


At least you will agree that the true God is UNLIKE ANYTHING in Creation.