₦airaland Forum

honesttalk21:
You say that Islam overlooks sin, but that couldn’t be further from the truth. In Islam, every crime is acknowledged, every action is accounted for, and no injustice goes unpunished. The Qur’an clearly states: “Whoever does an atom’s weight of good will see it, and whoever does an atom’s weight of evil will see it” (99:7–. Even if a murderer passes away peacefully in his sleep, he will still have to face every one of his victims on the Day of Judgment. The Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) emphasized that rights will be restored to their rightful owners on the Day of Resurrection, to the point where even a sheep without horns will receive justice from one that has them. Nothing is overlooked, no victim is forgotten, and no wrong is dismissed.

What you claim is usually different from what your prophet teaches about Islam

Sahih Muslim 94 b
Abu Dharr reported,:
I came to the Apostle (may peace be upon him ) and he was asleep with a white mantle over him. I again came, he was still asleep, I came again and he had awakened. I sat by his side and (the Holy Prophet) observed: There is none among the bondsmen who affirmed his faith in La illaha ill-Allah there is no God but Allah) and died in this state and did not enter Paradise. I (Abu Dharr) said: Even if he committed adultery and theft? He (the Holy Prophet) replied: (Yes) even though he committed adultery and theft. I (again said): Even if he committed adultery and theft? He replied: (Yes) even though he committed adultery and theft. (Th Holy Prophet repeated it three times) and said for the fourth time: In defiance of Abu Dharr. Abu Dharr then went out and he repeated (these words): In defiance of Abu Dharr.

So, tell me how Abacha will restore all the money he had stolen from Nigeria?
Tell me how a man will pay for the Adultery he had committed with his friend's Wife?

I am waiting for you to distort the hadith above again

honesttalk21:
In Islam, repentance isn’t just a way to escape consequences. If a man repents after committing a heinous act like rape, turning to God doesn’t erase the rights of the woman or her children. They will still confront him before Allah. This is where the distinction lies. Islam insists on accountability, while Christianity suggests that the guilty can walk free because the innocent Jesus supposedly takes on their sins. You might say that he was of the world, but Jesus transformed him when he surrendered to him. However, true justice means that the criminal must face the consequences of his actions.

So, the Rapist repents and recites La illah illa lah three times then becomes a Muslim.
If I understand you well, Allah will admit this man into Paradise BUT according to you, the Raped Woman and her Children will confront this man!

So what? What will come out of the confrontation?
You forget that Adultery and Theft are primarily sins against God before being an offence against man? What if the Woman and her children are infidels? What reward will they gain from this repentant wicked man?

See how your theology breaks down with thinking!

honesttalk21:
Let’s not kid ourselves into thinking that only Muslims commit sins. There are plenty of rapists who identify as Christians. We’ve seen priests, pastors, and clergy exposed for their crimes all over the globe. So, to claim that Islam is the only faith that “forgives” rapists is simply misleading. The real question is which faith holds the rapist accountable for his actions, and which one shifts the blame onto someone else?

I never implied that only Muslims sin. I was just helping you to see how Allah judges sin by using a Muslim as an example.
All humans including me are sinners and ALL are going to Hell because of it. The difference between you and me is that I submitted myself to the One who Paid Off my Debt of Punishment in Hell and you hope to pay yours off with good deeds and Islam.

honesttalk21:
You brought up the hadith regarding Jews and Christians being a “ransom.” However, the Qur’an is definitive, stating: “No soul bears the burden of another” (6:164). This hadith can’t be taken literally; it signifies that Allah forgives believers while punishing those who reject Him for their own sins. In contrast, Christianity contradicts Ezekiel 18:20 by placing humanity’s guilt on the sinless Jesus.

Are you saying that the Qur'an contradict this hadith of your prophet?

honesttalk21:
Here’s the bottom line: in Islam, if a man commits rape, he faces the consequences on this earth if justice is served, and in the Hereafter without any escape.

Is it every crime that is punished on earth?
How would this Rapist be equitably punished for destroying a Woman and the lives of her four children?

honesttalk21:
You want to make your usual excuse based on hadith you don't understand. Perhaps translation and culture challenge yet you know the Qur'an comes first before the Hadith. You have tried in vain to say words of Muhammad pbuh are disobyed yet fail to agree his actual meaning is not understood. Maybe you should provide a verse in the Quran saying the hadith is to be obeyed over the words of Allah.

The Qur'an say Muslim men should do Mutah
The Hadith say it is cancelled
What do you follow?

Spare me that.

honesttalk21:
Let's take a closer look at the concepts of sin and redemption. In Christianity, there's this idea that one can repent, but ultimately, the guilt is transferred to Jesus. So, which belief system truly respects the victim? And which one downplays the seriousness of sin?

In Christianity, the penalty for sin against my neighbour is ETERNITY in Hell period!
And Justice has been Served.

What else?

The difference is that the Judge who executed my sentence is the one who also paid for the consequences for me.

In Islam Adultery and Theft are waived off by Allah!

honesttalk21:
When Christians respond, they often say, “Jesus was different from us; that’s why He could bear our sins.” But the Bible repeatedly refers to Him as a man: “Jesus of Nazareth, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders” (Acts 2:22). He experienced hunger, thirst, sleep, and prayer. If He wasn’t fully human, then His sacrifice wouldn’t truly represent humanity.

When Jibril came to Mary, didn't he come as a perfect man? Did that stop him from being an Angel?
It seems you don't know that A perfect man is indistinguishable from other humans.

honesttalk21:
Now, if we say He was also God, we run into a major contradiction. God can’t experience hunger, thirst, suffering, or death. If Jesus died, then according to this logic, God died too which is impossible. If He didn’t die, then the supposed ransom never happened. Either way, this doctrine falls apart.

When Muslims argue they put their brains is comatose mode.
Is death a kind of annihilation or a transition to a non physical realm in Islam?
If Moses and Joseph and Adam etc are dead, does it mean your prophet was conjuring fake stories about them. How come they are dead but not dead at the same time? SMH!!

You said:
Now, if we say He was also God, we run into a major contradiction

So, when Jibril came as a perfect man, his taste buds were not working, he did not have an intestine nor stomach. His cells were dead abi?

If God came down as aan, couldn't He experience everything men experience if He chose to?

honesttalk21:
The Qur’an provides a clear perspective on this: “The Messiah, son of Mary, was only a messenger; messengers passed away before him. His mother was a woman of truth. They both used to eat food” (5:75). This dependence on food highlights humanity. Anyone who eats relies on God; and anyone who relies on something cannot be God.

So, we’re left with two possibilities: either Jesus was fully human, which means Ezekiel 18:20 still holds true. “The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father” or He wasn’t truly human, in which case His sacrifice loses its meaning as a substitute. Christianity can’t sidestep this contradiction. In contrast, Islam provides clarity: Jesus was a prophet, revered and miraculously born, but never God.

Only the True God can be Somewhere and Everywhere at the same Time without contradicting His Almightiness

Only the True God can be Unlimited and Limited at the same Time without contradicting His Almightiness

Only the True God can be Spirit and Physical at the same Time without contradicting His Almightiness

Only the True God can be ANYTHING without contradicting His Almightiness



The Almighty God came as a man because through Man sin entered the world. Angels cannot substitute for man because Angels are NOT infinite.

The only One who's INFINITY can atone for the invite incarnation of man in Hell is God Himself.


Allah doesn't love you this much to do the unthinkable for you: after all, you are just his slave

Not so with YHWH,
He LOVES Humanity so much that without violating His JUSTICE, He could Free men from the Consequences of Violating His INTEGRITY as God.

This is why the Message is called GOOD NEWS: the price for your Redemption has been paid by God Himself.

Reject it at your Peril!

honesttalk21:
The idea that mortal beings can die and then become gods is rooted in ancient mythology. Take Hercules, for example—he endured suffering, met his end, and was then elevated to Olympus. Similarly, Pharaohs were often proclaimed divine after they passed away. Christianity mirrors this concept by asserting that Jesus, a man who experienced life just like us eating, sleeping, praying, and ultimately dying (though I stand that this hasn't occured yet) is also God.

Is this not another strawman argument?
Which ever Christian cult says Jesus became God after He died and resurrected?

God became Human had always been the teaching of the Bible Mr man! Did you ever read anywhere that a man became God to the Christians?

honesttalk21:
In contrast, Islam completely dismisses this notion. The Qur’an states: “There is nothing like unto Him” (42:11). God doesn’t experience hunger, sleep, or death. He is eternal and self-sufficient. While Christianity seems to echo a mythological cycle, Islam upholds the essence of pure monotheism: God is entirely unique, free from human frailties, and never part of creation.

So many things are like Allah eg Iblis
1. Allah is a subset of the Universe just as Iblis is a subset of the universe.
Is Allah not just above the seven heavens which is above the seven earth's?
2. Allah is one just like Iblis Iblis is one
How many Iblis do you know in the Universe?
3. Allah cannot do many things just like Iblis.
Can Allah enter into his creation and remain almighty?


You are confusing the fact that NOTHING is impossible for my God. Even Angels don't need to eat but they can eat if they choose to do so!
Can Allah eat if he chooses to or not?
How can a God be Almighty when he has so many LIMITATIONS?

honesttalk21:
In Islam, sin is taken very seriously. A rapist or murderer doesn’t just get a free pass; they face consequences in this life, are held accountable to their victims on the Day of Judgment, and will face Allah’s judgment in the Hereafter. The Prophet pbuh stated, “Rights will surely be restored to their rightful owners on the Day of Resurrection.” (Muslim). This means that no crime goes unpunished, and every victim will receive compensation. Forgiveness in Islam isn’t just a get-out-of-jail-free card; it demands genuine repentance and restitution, but even then, the rights of the victims are still honored.

Unfortunately, in reality many EVIL people die peacefully and at old age without experiencing any judgement here on earth. Or you think ever murderer die violent deaths? A man who gruesomely kills 70 people can at best die ONCE! So, where is the islamic justice here on earth?. Moreover, using my analogy of the Rapist, what could have been an equatable justice for him here on earth? You see that islamic theology breaks down irrevocably here!

honesttalk21:
On the flip side, Christianity often shifts the burden of guilt from the wrongdoer to the innocent Jesus, even though the Bible clearly teaches: “The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father.” (Ezekiel 18:20). Islam sees this as fundamentally unjust. Each person is responsible for their own actions, as the Qur’an states: “No bearer of burdens will bear the burden of another.” (6:164).

You keep on repeating scriptures you don't understand.
Does this scripture mean that since everyone is a sinner, ALL will go to hell for eternity?
An by the way, Jesus can be a substitute for us only because He is not a human like us.

honesttalk21:
Regarding the hadith where the Prophet pbuh mentions that Allah will give each Muslim a Jew or a Christian and say, “This is your ransom from Hellfire” (Muslim 2767), scholars clarify that this doesn’t imply substitution. It signifies that Allah forgives believers while intensifying the punishment for those who have already rejected Him. They are punished for their own sins, not for anyone else’s.

So, what concerns Christians and Jews with Allah removing Muslims from Hell? Why will Allah REPLACE you with us?
The hadith is so plane but you have to explain it away because it is incredibly stupid.

honesttalk21:
In Islam the Qur’an is final so any hadith is read in line with it. The Qur’an says no soul bears another’s burden (6:164), so ‘ransom’ is metaphorical, not literal; but Christianity really does put the guilt of all mankind on the innocent Jesus, which directly contradicts Ezekiel 18:20.

Thus, Islam maintains a balance of justice and mercy: the guilty are held accountable, victims receive compensation, and no innocent person bears the weight of another’s crime. In contrast, Christianity suggests salvation comes from punishing the innocent for the guilty. Which system truly embodies divine justice?

Are you confirming that the Qur'an 6:164 contradict the hadith of your prophet where Christians and Jews are used as ransom for you Muslims?

In Christianity according to the Scripture:
1. All are guilty of Sin
2. The consequence of Sin is ETERNITY in Hell
3. God is JUST and MUST therefore punish Sin
4. But God so much LOVE us to provide a SOLUTION for us because God's justice must be served
5. In God's wisdom, he provided a RANSOM for us as an EXCHANGE for our Punishment.
6. This RANSOM is the LAMB of God that takes away our punishment for Sin



If Allah forgives by a Fiat, there is NO Justice.

You still haven't answered the question!
Who pays for the crime of Rape by this man when he becomes a repentant Muslim?

honesttalk21:
True justice means the guilty face the consequences, not the innocent. Islam stands firm on this principle, while Christianity seems to flip it on its head by placing the sins of humanity on Jesus, who never committed them.

If Ezekiel 18:20 clearly states, “The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father,” how can you assert that Jesus bears the sins of all mankind without contradicting your own Bible?

If your understanding is okay, what you are saying is that
you are guilty of sin and therefore you are to spend your eternity in Hell, with no redemption. Would this be okay for you as you must bear your own sin upon yourself?

Second, is Jesus a human being like you and me according to the Bible? Then Ezekiel 18:20 is unbroken!
Sorry!

honesttalk21:
In Islam, sin isn't just brushed aside. Allah embodies perfect justice, meaning every wrongdoing is taken into account. If someone commits a heinous act like rape and devastates lives, their sincere repentance might lead to Allah’s forgiveness, but they still have to confront the consequences of their actions. On the Day of Judgment, the victims will claim their share of the perpetrator's good deeds until justice is served. If those good deeds run out, the perpetrator will carry the weight of their victims' sins and face punishment in Hell. Repentance in Islam isn’t a free pass; it demands genuine remorse, a commitment to change, restitution when possible, and accountability to both Allah and the victims.

Sin is brushed aside in Islam: that had been your claim that Allah just FORGIVE the sinner by his mercy.

This was why I asked you the question that you have not answered till now.
What do you think should be his reward for his act of rape by this man?

Your claim of trading of good for evil is naive. Using this rapist as an example, what good will replace the mother of these children? What amount of money will atone for the violent rape of this woman. What good will erase the death and destruction of the lives of these children.

What if the victim is already a candidate for hell?
What share of the transgressors good will be transferred to her?

Islam is a com. .edy of spiritual nonsense!

honesttalk21:
Do you Christian say once you accept Jesus Christ as lord and personal saviour all things past are forgiven and you have been made new? Islam doesn't say you are not punished on earth but that this will be both on earth and in the afterlife.

The Christian idea that "Jesus paid it all" might sound comforting, but it falls apart under examination. True justice requires that the guilty face the consequences of their actions; punishing an innocent person is simply wrong. The Bible states, “The soul that sins shall die; the son shall not bear the iniquity of the father” (Ezekiel 18:20). Yet, Christianity asks us to accept that God violated His own principle by punishing Jesus, who was innocent, for the sins of others. This isn’t justice; it’s a distortion of justice.

If the consequence of Sin against God is ETERNITY in Hell Fire, do you think any Human being can completely fully pay such a price?

This is why only God can pay it for man.

A human being cannot pay for the sin of another: it is impossible. But the question is according to the Bible, is Jesus a mere human being like you and me?
Sorry, you have no case!

The only reason God pays the price of sin for us is that
1. He loves us above any of His Creations
2. It is impossible for any man to pay for his sins

Too bad for Islam that teaches Muslims to reject the SOLUTION of God for the solution of many.

honesttalk21:
The analogy of a son crashing a car and the father covering the costs doesn’t hold up either. That’s a financial issue, not a matter of moral guilt. If a man commits murder and his father is punished instead, no court would deem that just.
Similarly, the notion that only an “infinite Jesus” could atone for sins is riddled with contradictions. If Jesus is God, then who died on the cross? God can’t die. If only the human aspect died, then the sacrifice was limited. If the divine aspect died, then God would have ceased to exist; an impossibility.

I used an illustration according to the limitations of humanity and not with respect to God. Is this illustration valid for justice amongst men?

Sin is against God's integrity and thus only God determines both the punishment and the value of fine to be paid.

honesttalk21:
Islam’s teachings are clearer and more just. Each individual carries their own burden (Qur’an 6:164), just as Ezekiel taught. Victims of oppression receive compensation, the wrongdoer is held accountable, and sincere repentance can still lead to mercy. In contrast, Christianity shifts the blame onto the innocent and leaves victims without recompense. Islam maintains both divine justice and mercy without any contradictions.

Don't forget that according to you, Allah forgives according to his mercy meaning that the sinner goes free without any consequence for violating the kunfayakun of Allah.

Islamic doctrine actually show that sin is trivial!
Sorry!

honesttalk21:
In Christianity, it often seems like the guilty can escape punishment while the innocent suffer; on the other hand, in Islam, the guilty face consequences, victims receive compensation, and God’s mercy is always available. Which of these systems truly embodies divine justice?

Again, putting your claim to test.
This rapist repents and says la illah illa lah and becomes a Muslim. Allah forgives him without him paying for the gravity of his sin.

honesttalk21:
The saying, “No bearer of burdens will bear the burden of another,” reminds us that each individual is responsible for their own actions (6:164, 17:15, 35:18, 39:7, 53:38).

Imam al-Nawawi explains that this metaphorical language isn’t about literally transferring sins from one person to another. Instead, it highlights that disbelievers will face consequences for their own disbelief and wrongdoings, while Muslims can find forgiveness through Allah’s mercy.

Your hadith says that Muslims will be REMOVED from Hell and Christians and Jews would be used to replace them. If I am wrong, please quote the hadith and not imam al-Nawawi

honesttalk21:
It’s important to note that the punishment faced by Jews and Christians doesn’t exempt Muslims; there’s no swapping of burdens here.

Muslims find salvation through their faith and Allah’s mercy, while those Jews and Christians who turn away from the truth will be held accountable for their own actions.

When we talk about “ransom” in this context, it’s more of a figurative contrast rather than a literal substitution. The phrase “your ransom from Hell-fire” suggests that the punishment some Muslims might deserve is instead placed upon the disbelievers who have earned it through their disbelief and misdeeds.

Another valid interpretation is that the sins carried by Jews and Christians often stem from the misguided teachings or innovations they introduced, which led others into sin. For instance, if they influenced Muslims to stray, then the weight of leading others astray falls heavily on their shoulders (Quran 16:25).

Please read the hadith and repeat exactly what it says and don't re-interprete it to say what you want.

The hadith is extremely simple and clear. Christians and Jews are your ransom from the Fire of Hell.
"No bearer of burdens will bear the burden of another,” is contradicted by this hadith.

Sorry!

honesttalk21:
Or how does Christianity contradict the son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, nor the father the iniquity of the son;Ezekiel 18:20
Oh Jesus is not the father of Christians so it doesn't apply.

And Deut. 24:16 that each will die for his own sin

No human being can pay the price of sin for another human being.
Why?
All human beings are sinners by nature.


The wages of Sin is ETERNITY in Hell: whoever will pay this price must be worth INFINITY in all ramifications.

This is why the LAMB of God that takes away the sin of the World has a Value of INFINITY in all ramifications.

This explains why JESUS is NOT a man like you and me BUT is One who has the value of INFINITY in all Ramifications.

honesttalk21:
In Islam, sin is never taken lightly. It has serious repercussions on three fronts: the guilt felt before Allah, the tangible harm inflicted on others, and the rights of victims that must be addressed. A rapist who has caused a woman's death and left her children to suffer will bear the full weight of these consequences on the Day of Judgment. The Prophet pbuh referred to such individuals as “bankrupt.” They might arrive with their prayers and fasting, but their victims will claim their good deeds as compensation. Once those run out, the sins of the victims will be placed upon them before they are cast into Hell.

It is good that you are now seeing sin as more than just disobedience but one with for more damaging long lasting impact.

But Allah waves this sin away without justice. Isn't this your argument all along ?

honesttalk21:
Simply saying la ilaha illa Allah won’t wipe away these grave offenses unless it’s paired with genuine repentance, restitution, and forgiveness from those who were wronged.
The Qur’an clearly states that anyone who unjustly takes a life will face Hell, divine anger, and a curse (Qur’an 4:93). At the same time, the victims are not forgotten as every bit of pain they endured is noted and rewarded by Allah.

So, the rapist says he is sorry and has genuinely repented. .. Has this erased the gravity of his sin?
Is his repentance equal to the damage he has committed?

What happened to justice?

honesttalk21:
This approach is far more equitable than what is found in Christianity.
In that faith of Christianity, a criminal who “accepts Jesus” is often deemed forgiven, leaving their victims without any form of compensation. This not only undermines justice but also mercy, as it excuses the guilty while neglecting the oppressed. In contrast, Islam ensures that every wrong is rectified, every victim is honored, and every crime is accounted for. This way, divine justice is upheld, human responsibility is recognized, and mercy remains available for those who truly repent.

Jesus paid the fine or punishment for the sins of the sinner.
It's like a son had an accident with his car damaging several things worth billions and his father by himself paid for ALL the damages. Is this fair in law and use of justice


I asked you a simple question:
What do you think should be his reward for his act of rape by this man?


In Christianity, Jesus Christ is our Ransom from the consequences of Sin unfortunately, for you Muslims, we Christians and Jews are your own ransom.
Does this make sense to you?

honesttalk21:
All these horrible events happen outside the scope of your YHWH or he hasn't been the same since you slung him up on the cross?

I gave you a simple case to illustrate the fallout and consequence of SIN for you to apply Islamic logic and doctrine


A man rapes a woman who ended up getting pregnant with an ectopic pregnancy. She died on the operating table. Her four children dropped out of school. They became destitutes. One was crushed by a Trailer, Ritual killers harvested the skull of one while she slept under the bridge, one in desperation due to hardship drank sniper and died and the last is awaiting execution for armed robbery. All caused by this man.

What do you think should be his reward for his act of rape?

Muslims think that sin is just an action, they don't know that the consequences go beyond the man.

According to you,
Allah says to this man, "because you said lah illah ila lah, your sins are forgiven". How about the damages caused? Who pays for it? Is it this woman or her children?


Muslims do not understand a hoot about spiritual things and worse, they don't understand the magnitude of sin. Sin is the violation of the INTEGRITY of the Almighty God

honesttalk21:
Terrific lengths you go to in lies. Saying things I didn't say or characteristically taking my words out of context as you often do with hadith and try with Qur'an verses.

Attention mischievously lieing tenq.

In Islam, Allah’s sovereignty is absolute. Allah is the Creator of everything, and He is, over all things, Disposer of affairs (Qur’an 39:62). However, He has given humans and jinn the gift of free will as a test. And We guided him to the two paths (Qur’an 90:10). This freedom doesn’t take away from His power, since you do not will except that Allah wills (Qur’an 81:29). Sin happens only because Allah allows it, in His wisdom, to reveal sincerity, hypocrisy, repentance, and rebellion yet He remains fully in control, and humans are still accountable for their actions.

The Bible reflects a similar balance. In the Old Testament, it states, I form the light, and create darkness, I make peace, and create evil, I the LORD do all these things” (Isaiah 45:7), highlighting God’s ultimate authority. Still, humans are held responsible for their decisions. I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse. Therefore choose life, that you and your offspring may live (Deuteronomy 30:19). In the New Testament, Paul reinforces this idea for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose (Philippians 2:13).

In conclusion, both the Qur’an and the Bible affirm that God’s sovereignty and human responsibility go hand in hand. Sin doesn’t undermine God’s authority; rather, it unfolds within His divine plan, leaving humanity accountable to their Creator.

Let me ask you, why is it that when only Adam and Eve existed in the garden of Eden, God did not stop them from disobeying the command not to eat fruit from the tree from which they were forbidden.

Anyway, your base faulty philosophy that there must be transactional payment for sin to be forgiven.
Why does your God require blood sacrifice because He cannot forgive without blood shed?

Is Allah's kunfayakun also binding on Beings with free Will such as Angels, Humans and Jinn!?

Is it true you said:

Imagine a scientist or engineer remaining conflicted and confused about the creative power of God that includes the free will given to man. Allah decreed a world in which man could choose to disobey, this is still within kunfayakun.

You just simply said that man can disobey Allah's command BUT it is still within kunfayakun.

Did I hear you just (with gross Ignorance) say:
Sin doesn’t undermine God’s authority; rather, it unfolds within His divine plan, leaving humanity accountable to their Creator.

God says: Don't do.... BUT You did it anyways
God says: Be.... BUT You went contrary to His command
God says: Do this.... BUT You Refused to Do it


But to you, these Blatant and Gross Disobedience of Humans does NOT undermine God's authority.
SMH!



The consequence of Sin against YHWH the Creator of Everything is Eternal Disconnection from Him in a place God designates as Hell.

So, what is the consequence of Sin by Man or Angels or Jinn according to Allah?

Good.
Trump is so unpredictable and many times irrational. For the sake of future business from Russia, he could sacrifice Ukraine.
It's not his first time.

Walai:
Op go and treat erectile dysfunction no dey whine us. She took off cloth and you turn philosopher, if I hear

Just because he acted as a Thinking Man rather than a He-Goat!?

It is not every gift that should be taken

honesttalk21:
Imagine a scientist or engineer remaining conflicted and confused about the creative power of God that includes the free will given to man. Allah decreed a world in which man could choose to disobey, this is still within kunfayakun.

Continue in your cannibal ways following in your skewed beliefs that God requires blood sacrifice because He cannot forgive without blood shed


Hahaha 🤣 🤣 🤣 You didn't remember to screenshot this response and skew it to post up?

According to you:
Allah is NOT Sovereign over Man, Angels or Jinn because they have free Will.


Unfortunately,
There is no FreeWill in Islam. Isn't everything the DESTINY of Allah?

It is Allah you causes a Man to commit sin by his destiny only to turn around to claim forgiveness.

How can a man be guilty of what he was programmed to do by Allah?


You have just proved it that he author of SIN is Allah because he destined People to commit sin.

Thank you very much.









Your grasp of spiritual things is dismally abysmal at the least in Islam. This is your problem!

honesttalk21:
Fantastic.
1. Your God must justify his forgiving the imperfectness of mankind who errs? Isn't sincere regret and repentance not enough justification? Oh no mankind must pay by spilling blood of the innocent.
How is this not further misdeed?

Unfortunately you don't bring sentiments and emotions into the law. No matter how much you say and sign papers an adopted person is never biological. Then you ignore the fact that the initial marriage was already gone.

Even your book tells you the perfection you seek is not in this world.
the whole creation groans and travails in pain until now (Romans 8:22)

My kingdom is not of this world (John 18:36)
For here we have no continuing city, but we seek the one to come (Hebrews 13:14)


Keep skewing your responses. Glad to note you always screenshot your responses as you anticipate it's deletion.

Then don't forget to answer.

Which is greater a God who forgives directly with mercy, or a God who requires sacrifice because He cannot forgive without blood?

1. Is Allah just?
2. What is the meaning?
3. Is it just to allow a sinner go without consequences?

Your Question:
Which is greater a God who forgives directly with mercy, or a God who requires sacrifice because He cannot forgive without blood ?



The God (YHWH) who Pays for the damage caused by Sin by Himself so that the Sinner can go free is the greatest.
Why?
1. His justice is not compromised
2. His love is also made manifest to the sinner who received His gift of forgiveness
3. The consequences of the sin of the Sinner is fully PAID so that he at no personal cost is GUILTLESS!




The God who forgives directly without justice forfeits his sovereignty because a Sinner who violated his integrity suffers ZERO consequence for his insubordination which makes this God completely UNJUST!
Why?
1. This God called Allah doesn't understand that sin is a violation of his integrity as God.
2. This God is completely UNJUST because the wicked man is granted freedom without paying for the consequences of his sin


A man rapes a woman who ended up getting pregnant with an ectopic pregnancy. She died on the operating table. Her four children dropped out of school. They became destitutes. One was crushed by a Trailer, Ritual killers while she slept under the bridge, one in desperation due to hardship drank sniper and died and the last is awaiting execution for armed robbery. All caused by this man.

What do you think should be his reward for his act of rape?

Muslims think that sin is just an action, they don't know that the consequences go beyond the man.

According to you,
Allah says to this man, "because you said Allah illa lah, your sins are forgiven". How about the damages caused? Who pays for it? Is it this woman or her children?


Muslims do not understand a hoot about spiritual things and worse, they don't understand the magnitude of sin. Sin is the violation of the INTEGRITY of the Almighty God

honesttalk21:
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In any case,


You seem to confuse Allah’s creative command—“Be, and it is”—with His moral commands to humans, like “Do not steal.” When people disobey, it doesn’t make God’s word fail; it only highlights human weakness within Allah’s decree.

Regarding the claim that the Prophet pbuh snatched a man’s wife, and you’re likely referring to Zaynab’s marriage. In reality, this was a divine command meant to abolish false adoption laws. It was a public matter, not a secret, and Zayd, her husband, had already divorced her. Allah revealed verses about this (Qur’an 33:37). To call this “stealing wives” is polemic, not historical fact.

If the Prophet pbuh were deceitful, his enemies who opposed him for 23 years—would have been first to record such accusations. Yet, even they called him al-Amīn, “the Trustworthy.”

Forgiveness doesn’t erase history; it removes punishment. Only the Almighty can transform sin into good. The Qur’an remains unmatched in guidance, depth, and preservation, and differences in tafsīr reflect richness, not weakness. Attacks on the Prophet pbuh are often recycled polemics that have long been refuted.

Again I ask; which is greater a God who forgives directly with mercy, or a God who requires sacrifice because He cannot forgive without blood?

Here it is again. The Nairaland bots have gone crazy

And your question have also been answered here before it was deleted

honesttalk21:
Again I ask; which is greater a God who forgives directly with mercy, or a God who requires sacrifice because He cannot forgive without blood?

The God who Pays for the Damage caused by the OFFENDER as a consequence of FORGIVING him is the Merciful God. The God whose kunfayakun cannot be violated without consequences is the Holy God.

The God whose kunfayakun was violated and he cannot restore it looses his almightiness. Because the OFFENDER goes scot-free with no consequence for his offence. Isn't this how Allah forgives? Allah waves away SIN because he doesn't know that sin is a violation of his integrity as God!

The question still remains:
What can be done to UNDO the IRREVERENCE of a Sinner to the Almighty God.Only a Deity that doesn't know the meaning of "The Almighty" and what it means to be "Holy" will swallow the contempt of his own creature.

I guess you don't even understand what it means when we say "God is Holy"!

honesttalk21:
Disagreement in tafsīr, or the interpretation of the Qur'an, should not be seen as a flaw; rather, it represents a wealth of perspective. The Qur'an is profound. A gem whose brilliance reflects a spectrum of meanings.
Scholars do not set out to "correct" the Qur'an; instead, they seek to explore its intricate layers. Much like how we wouldn’t dismiss the field of medicine simply because different doctors interpret symptoms in varying ways, even when they all agree on the existence of the body, the same applies to the understanding of the Qur'an.

The Qur'an offers guidance on multiple levels. Its fundamental principles such as tawḥīd (the oneness of God), justice, prayer, and mercy are clear to everyone. However, its deeper meanings often require scholarly insight, much like how the Bible calls for the expertise of pastors and theologians.

Every so-called error that critics point out has already been addressed by both Muslim scholars and neutral observers. Take, for instance, the reference to seven heavens or seven earths. This is understood as layers or realms rather than a literal stacking of planets. Labeling these interpretations as errors imposes contemporary scientific terminology onto a 7th-century text. It’s important to remember that the Qur'an is not intended to be a science textbook; it serves as a guide, pointing us towards Allah.

The post disappeared because of the Nairaland bots.
Here it is once again!

honesttalk21:
When it comes to truth, the Qur’an stands unmatched in its language, prophecy, and preservation. The Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) was known as al-Amin, the trustworthy. In Islam, Jesus is recognized as the Messiah, born of a virgin, a word and spirit from Allah. Honored, but not divine. The different names (Yeshua/Isa) are simply variations in language, not different individuals.

-If the Qur'an is so unmatched in language, how come there are volumes of Tafsirs which often -disagreed with each other.
-How come the Qur'an cannot be read by a layman and understood unless it passed through the lenses of your Scholars.
-The Qur'an is so unmatched and we have serious obvious scientific error in it.
-Quran is so perfect that it contains serious historical errors and blunders.
-The Qur'an is so great yet we find it plagiarising tales of the ancients

Your claims about the Qur'an fall down yakata on the slightest scrutiny.

Your prophet is the Al-Amin, yet we find him telling lies to his wife about her house girl.
Your prophet is Al-Amin, yet he went into a Muslim man's house when the man wasn't home only to later snatch the man's wife.

If I cannot trust you with my wife, you certainly must be very trustworthy

honesttalk21:
Islam’s God forgives directly out of His mercy, while Christianity suggests that God is powerless to forgive without sacrificing His own son. So, who truly embodies the Almighty?

So, I asked!
How can one UNDO ones violation of God's command after it has been violated?

You still seem not to comprehend that what makes God the Almighty is that His Commands CANNOT fail but be carried out to the letter!

How can Allah be the almighty when he commands and the command fails? Please tell me!?

honesttalk21:
You present your challenge with force, but it seems like you're mixing up some concepts and then pointing fingers at Islam for being weak. You're just inclined to controversy, argument.

You seem to misunderstand the term kun fayakun.It signifies Allah’s creative command when He wills something, it simply comes into being. Human sin doesn’t break His command; it unfolds within His divine decree, according to His will, for which we are held accountable. A sin can't be wiped from history, but Allah has the power to forgive its consequences or even turn it into good deeds, showcasing His justice and mercy together.

Moral commands, like "Do not steal," aren't creative decrees; they represent taklif; the responsibilities placed on humans. When a person disobeys, these commands aren't broken; rather, the individual sins within the framework of Allah’s decree.

So, when Iblis chose to disobey, it didn’t mean Allah’s command failed. That disobedience was already known, willed, and included in Allah’s decree, allowing for the manifestation of free will and accountability. The Qur’an makes this very clear:

When it comes to truth, the Qur’an stands unmatched in its language, prophecy, and preservation. The Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) was known as al-Amin, the trustworthy. In Islam, Jesus is recognized as the Messiah, born of a virgin, a word and spirit from Allah. Honored, but not divine. The different names (Yeshua/Isa) are simply variations in language, not different individuals.

Islam’s God forgives directly out of His mercy, while Christianity suggests that God is powerless to forgive without sacrificing His own son. So, who truly embodies the Almighty?

Here yourself

So, when Iblis chose to disobey, it didn’t mean Allah’s command failed. That disobedience was already known, willed, and included in Allah’s decree, allowing for the manifestation of free will and accountability. The Qur’an makes this very clear:

1. Allah commands Iblis to prostrate to Adam
2. Iblis refused to carry out Allah's order
BUT
Islamically, Allah's command did not Fail!



See your warped Logic!

Is it TRUE that
kunfayakun signifies the divine power of Allah to create and command, underscoring His supreme authority over ALL THINGS or is it over SOME THINGS?

Which one is it?

honesttalk21:
Please don't break your neck, it will still be required to carry your head after the junk of misinformation is corrected.

The hadith discussing the seven heavens and seven earths isn’t just a simplistic flat-stacked planets idea. It refers to

1. Literal unseen reality. The heavens and earths do exist, but their true nature is beyond what we can comprehend (bila kayf).

2. Cosmological metaphor. The term “seven” symbolizes layers or regions, similar to the seven strata of the earth or the seven celestial spheres.

3. Spiritual symbol representing the stages of the soul’s ascent and descent.

When it mentions 500 years, it’s actually a piece of Arabic rhetoric meant to convey an unimaginable distance, rather than a precise measurement. The Prophet pbuh concluded the narration by referencing Qur’an 57:3 to emphasize that everything above and below is fully within God’s knowledge and power.

This hadith highlights Allah’s transcendence, rather than providing NASA with a cosmic map of the universe.

Is DISTANCE a measure if Physical Dimensions or Not?
Is TIME a duration between States of Physical Dimensions or Not?
Is our Earth and whatever is Below it Physical or Not?

If these are true, then Everything about your unseen is PHYSICAL and LITERAL!

honesttalk21:
What then are God the father, god the son and god the holy spirit with God the father being the greatest? Are these not three distinct entities?

Sorry!
Every creature lacks the power to be Somewhere and Everywhere at the same time.
Trinity of God makes God to be independently Somewhere and Everywhere without violating His oneness.

The lack of comprehension of this fact is the bane of Islam.

Can Allah be simultaneously independently Somewhere and Everywhere at the same time?

honesttalk21:
Is it possible to undo a violation of God's kun fayakun?

It seems there's a misunderstanding about what kun fayakun really means.

The Qur’an states, “His command, when He intends a thing, is only that He says to it ‘Be!’ and it is.” (Qur’an 36:82). This highlights God's creative command. Creation itself is obedient; it doesn’t “violate” Him.

So, the foundation of your question is a bit off. Nothing in creation can “undo” or “violate” God's command. The entire universe relies on Him; He is al-Qadir (the All-Powerful).

When sin happens, it’s not that God’s word is “broken.” Instead, He chose to create humans with free will and established consequences for their actions. Forgiveness isn’t a contradiction; it’s simply another expression of His Will.

It seems you do not understand my question: kunfayakun is beyond God's creative command. It involves ALL commands of God.

What makes God who he is His kunfayakun!
Meaning that ALL God's command without exception MUST be executed to the letter.

God says to man; Do not fornicate, do not worship idols: do not steal.

A man goes opposite to the kunfayakun of God by DOING the Opposite of God's command, their by making God's command to fail . This is what is called SIN.

The question is:
Is it possible for a man who had violated God's command to undo what he has done?

Tell me, if it is possible for Iblis to undo the fact that when Allah says "prostrate to Adam" and he refused!

honesttalk21:
Does God’s forgiveness without justice remove the violation?

In Islam, forgiveness isn’t without justice.

He is al-ʿAdl (The Just) and al-Raḥman (The Merciful).

Justice means that every soul is accountable for its own deeds. “No bearer of burdens will bear the burden of another.” (Qur’an 6:164).

Mercy means He may choose to forgive out of His grace.

There’s no contradiction here, as He forgives whom He wills without compromising justice. How is that possible? Because He holds the rights to punishment. If He decides to forgive, it’s His prerogative as the Sovereign King.

In contrast, Christianity suggests that God cannot forgive without bloodshed. That’s not a display of omnipotence, but rather a limitation. In tawhid, God forgives directly, showcasing a greater majesty.

You don't still understand the question!
Let's assume that Allah forgives Iblis, does this undo the fact that Allah commands was violated by him?

What is the ultimate punishment for Sin in Islam?

honesttalk21:
Show any miracle of Allah that was witnessed by anyone that proves He is God

Here, you’re mixing up the Creator with creation. God doesn’t need to perform tricks to prove Himself to anyone. His miracle is existence itself. The Qur’an says:

“In the creation of the heavens and the earth, and in the alternation of night and day, are signs for those of understanding.” (Qur’an 3:190).

But since you’re asking for witnessed miracles:

The Qur’an itself stands as a miracle, unparalleled in its language, prophecy, and preservation. (Even scholars from the West acknowledge its uniqueness.)

Historical miracles attributed to Muhammad (pbuh) include water flowing from his hands, the moon splitting, and the prophecies of the Qur’an coming to fruition. These events have been reported by entire communities (mutawatir).

So, how do you know that Allah's claims are TRUE?
A Dirty says:
I created everything ...
I have all powers ..
I can do anything..

How do you know he is speaking the truth?
Talk is cheap!

honesttalk21:
The issue isn’t a lack of evidence; it’s a refusal to acknowledge it Reminiscent of the Jews and Israelite in the Bible?

Now, who is Jesus?

We hold him in higher regard than your doctrine suggests.

According to the Qur’an: “The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was only a messenger of Allah, His word that He cast into Mary, and a spirit from Him.” (Qur’an 4:171).

So, he is:

- The Messiah
- A Prophet
- The Word (kalimah) from God
- A Spirit from God

But he is not God Himself. Why? Because the Creator doesn’t eat, sleep, or die. To reduce Him to flesh is to diminish His essence.

Islamic redefining of Jesus is the problem with Islam.
How do you know anything about Jesus Christ?
Is he the same Jesus as the Jesus of the Christians?
Note: Your own Jesus name is Isa and not Ye'shua

honesttalk21:
Regarding the Trinity and the Spirit:

You might ask: “Is Jesus the Holy Spirit or an unholy spirit?”

This reflects some confusion on your part

In Christianity, Jesus is not the Holy Spirit; they are considered distinct “persons” within the Trinity.

In Islam, the Ruh ul-Qudus refers to Jibrīl (Gabriel), the angelic spirit of revelation.

The “spirit” that was breathed into Jesus (Qur’an 66:12) represents the created life force.

So, to clarify; Jesus is a prophet, not the Holy Spirit. In our belief, Jibril is the Holy Spirit, not Jesus.

Did the Qur'an not call Jesus a SPIRIT from Allah?
Is he the Unholy Spirit since Jibril is the Holy spirit according to Muslims.

honesttalk21:
Now, let’s address the notion of salvation in Islam.

Islam does not reject salvation.

Rather, it rejects the idea that God must sacrifice Himself to grant forgiveness. That’s not salvation; that’s a myth.

Our path to salvation isn’t about “rituals” but about submission (Islam).

“Whoever submits his face to Allah and does good he will have his reward with his Lord, and no fear will there be upon them, nor will they grieve.” (Qur’an 2:112)

Islam isn’t about ritual instead of salvation it’s about direct accountability before God without priest or blood sacrifice.

All these are repetitions of assertions which doesn't make it true.

Do you believe that doing good cancel out sin against God?

honesttalk21:
Even the hadith you mentioned (“He was above the clouds… above water”) is an akhbārī (reporting) about unseen realities before creation. It doesn’t suggest any limitations. When we talk about “air and water” in a pre-creation context, it’s really just a way to help human minds grasp these concepts.

Exposing the Trinity

You claim the Trinity is a “description of YHWH”:

But you won’t find anywhere in the Torah or the Prophets that God is described as “three persons in one essence.”

Even Jesus reiterates the Shema (Mark 12:29).

The concept of the Trinity emerged after the biblical texts were written, sparking debates for centuries at Nicaea, Constantinople, and Chalcedon.

So how can you accuse Islam of creating monotheism when the Trinity itself is a concept that was unknown to Abraham, Moses, David, or even Jesus?

Re-reading the Hadith You Cited (Sunan Ibn Majah 182)

The hadith states: “He was above the clouds… then He created His Throne above the water.”

This is a metaphorical description, not a limitation of space. Before creation, ideas like “up” and “down,” “air” and “water” don’t fit into our physical understanding.

The Prophet pbuh often conveyed profound truths in ways that a Bedouin could relate to. For instance, when he described Paradise, he said: “Therein is what no eye has seen, no ear has heard, and no heart has imagined.”

So, no, this doesn’t mean Allah is “trapped in a location.” It signifies that before creation, there was only Allah. Then He brought everything into existence from nothing.

The Real Issue

You accuse Muhammad pbuh of “not understanding God.” Yet:

He reinstated the God of Abraham: pure oneness.

He eliminated the idols of Mecca: no sons, no partners, no incarnations.

He taught that Allah was and there was nothing else.” (Bukhari, Kitab al-Tawḥid).

Can you say the same for the Trinity, which blends Greek philosophy with Biblical monotheism?

Just to help you with your prophets description of the seven heavens and seven earth's so that you know for certain that they are LITERAL physical headband earths



Mishkat al-Masabih 5735
He told that while God's prophet and his companions were sitting clouds came over them and God's prophet asked, "Do you know what these are?" On their replying that God and His messenger knew best, he said, "These are the clouds (`anan), these are the water-carriers of the earth which God drives to people who do not thank Him or call upon Him." He then asked, "Do you know what is above you?" On their replying that God and His messenger knew best, he said, "It is the firmament, a ceiling which is guarded and waves which are kept back." He then asked, "Do you know what is between you and it?" On their replying that God and His messenger knew best, he said, "Between you and it are five hundred years." He then asked, "Do you knew what is above that?" On their replying that God and His messenger knew best, he said, "Two heavens with a distance of five hundred years between them." He went on speaking like that till he counted seven heavens, the distance between each pair being like that between the heaven and the earth. He then asked, "Do you know what is above that?" On their replying that God and His messenger knew best, he said, "Above that is the Throne, and the distance between it and the [seventh] heaven is the same as that between each pair of heavens." He then asked, "Do you know what is below you?" On their replying that God and His messenger knew best, he said, "It is the earth." He then asked, "Do you know what is under that?" On their replying that God and His messenger knew best, he said, "Under it there is another earth with a journey of five hundred years between them," and so on till he had counted seven earths with a journey of five hundred years between each pair. He then said, "By Him in whose hand Muhammad's soul is, if you were to drop a rope[1] to the lowest earth it would not pass out of God's knowledge." He then recited, "He is the First and the Last, the Outward and the Inward, and He is omniscient." Ahmad and Tirmidhi transmitted it, Tirmidhi saying that God's messenger's recitation of the verse indicates that it would go down within God's knowledge, power and authority, for God's knowledge, power and authority are everywhere, while He is on the Throne, as He described Himself in His Book.
This is the reading in the text on the margin of Mirqat. In Tirmidhi, in his book on Tafsir al Quran, the tradition occurs in his section on sura 57 (al-hadid), the reading being "if you were to drop a man with a rope..."
Literally, "it would fall upon God."


Till tomorrow, we are still looking for the six earths underneath our Earth!

SMH!


Sorry, too many things that are unbelievably untrue about your proffets narrations!

honesttalk21:
Because of your blatant disregard of your brother butterfly777 topic and to quench your habitual tread derailment by gish-gallop



Your words show a mix of passion and uncertainty. It seems you’re not just asking questions; you’re challenging Islam directly. So, let’s respond to your claims not with hostility, but with the profound understanding of monotheism and ʿknowledge.

Clarifying the Issues in Your Argument

Category Mistake

You’re equating the Qur’anic God (Allah) with a being that’s “like creation,” limited by space and time. This is exactly what tawhid, monotheism,stands against.

You take a single hadith narration, with its own context, and turn it into a universal truth. That’s not how Muslims or scholars interpret texts.

False Contrast

You suggest that Christianity embraces transcendence while Islam denies it. In reality, it’s often the opposite.

Christianity presents God as incarnate in human form, subject to hunger, death, and humiliation. That’s a likeness to creation.

Islam teaches: “Laysa kamithlihi shay’” Nothing is like Him (Qur’an 42:11).

Begging the Question

You assume the Trinity is “the true description of YHWH” without providing evidence. The Hebrew Bible, particularly the Shema (Hear O Israel, the Lord your God is One – Deut. 6:4), emphasizes absolute oneness without any persons or trinity. You’ve brought Greek metaphysics into Jewish monotheism and then claimed that Islam “created” a new form of monotheism. In truth, Islam restored the original.

What Islam Teaches about Allah

Allah is One (tawhid al-dhat)

He is not divided, not compounded, and certainly not three persons.

His Oneness is absolute, not just a matter of numerical addition.

Allah is Transcendent (tanzih)

“Vision does not encompass Him, but He encompasses all vision.” (Qur’an 6:103)

He is not confined by space. He created both time and place.

Allah is Both Near and Exalted

“He is with you wherever you are.” (Qur’an 57:4)

“The Most Merciful rose over the Throne.” (Qur’an 20:5)

Simply means He is exalted beyond comprehension, yet His knowledge and power encompass everything.

Allah is not Contained

Nothing can contain Him, neither the heavens nor the earth.

You can only do strawman argument.
So, to you, Christians are saying "the Lord God is THREE"!?
SMH!
Without Lies, Is Lam cannot exist!

Secondly,
Allah is a subset of the Universe and it can easily be proven.

Is Allah not above the seven heavens?
Then he is not within the seven heavens!
Neither is Allah below the seven heavens!
How can he be Omnipresent?

Logically, he can be in one location at a time. This is like Iblis who can be in only one location at a time.

Until otherwise, this prove that Allah is just like at least one creation.

Only the True God is Omnipresent, Omnipotent and Omniscient at the same time. Unfortunately, Allah isn't.
Arguing against the Trinity doesn't change the limited nature of Allah!

honesttalk21:
Even the hadith you mentioned (“He was above the clouds… above water”) is an akhbārī (reporting) about unseen realities before creation. It doesn’t suggest any limitations. When we talk about “air and water” in a pre-creation context, it’s really just a way to help human minds grasp these concepts.

Exposing the Trinity

You claim the Trinity is a “description of YHWH”:

But you won’t find anywhere in the Torah or the Prophets that God is described as “three persons in one essence.”

Even Jesus reiterates the Shema (Mark 12:29).

The concept of the Trinity emerged after the biblical texts were written, sparking debates for centuries at Nicaea, Constantinople, and Chalcedon.

So how can you accuse Islam of creating monotheism when the Trinity itself is a concept that was unknown to Abraham, Moses, David, or even Jesus?

Re-reading the Hadith You Cited (Sunan Ibn Majah 182)

The hadith states: “He was above the clouds… then He created His Throne above the water.”

This is a metaphorical description, not a limitation of space. Before creation, ideas like “up” and “down,” “air” and “water” don’t fit into our physical understanding.

The Prophet pbuh often conveyed profound truths in ways that a Bedouin could relate to. For instance, when he described Paradise, he said: “Therein is what no eye has seen, no ear has heard, and no heart has imagined.”

So, no, this doesn’t mean Allah is “trapped in a location.” It signifies that before creation, there was only Allah. Then He brought everything into existence from nothing.

The Real Issue

You accuse Muhammad pbuh of “not understanding God.” Yet:

He reinstated the God of Abraham: pure oneness.

He eliminated the idols of Mecca: no sons, no partners, no incarnations.

He taught that Allah was and there was nothing else.” (Bukhari, Kitab al-Tawḥid).

Can you say the same for the Trinity, which blends Greek philosophy with Biblical monotheism?

Why can't Muslims speak the truth for once?

Does any Christian describe Trinity as Tree Gods or One God?

Why is all your argument about three Gods.

I will just give you one verse from the Torah without explanation and I ask you to explain it knowing that YHWH is One

Gen 19:24:
"Then the YHWH (on Earth) rained on Sodom and on Gomorrah brimstone and fire from YHWH out of heaven;"

Can Allah enter into his creation?


Simple!

honesttalk21:
Even in discussions about legal matters, some critics take issue with Islam’s divorce rules, labeling them as harsh. However, the stipulation that a husband who hastily divorces his wife three times cannot immediately take her back is actually a protective measure, not an act of cruelty. It ensures that marriage isn’t treated like a game played out of anger and regret. The Prophet pbuh spoke out against the practice of declaring a triple divorce all at once, emphasizing that this law is meant to prevent abuse rather than create injustice.

The islamic ruling is not harsh o. It is completely UNJUST and UNFAIR.

Let me show you again!

Let me show you:
1. A righteous Muslim woman married a Muslim man with a short temper and she truly loves her husband.
2. One day, this man (without evidence) accused his wife of an offence and in anger, he pronounced divorce THREE times on his wife
3. Two days later, he discovered that he was in error and the wife that loves him is gone
4. According to Islam as allowed by Allah, this lovely obedient wife cannot go back to her husband for it is haram.
5. In Islamic wisdom, the woman must be "boreholed" by another willing Muslim who will marry her so that he can divorce her after.

What is the WISDOM in this my Brother?

Who is being punished for the rashness of the woman's husband in this case?
Is it the man or the wife?

Obviously, it is the Wife who has to be humiliated by becomes borehole to another man not her husband so that she can return to him and her children!
Is this a FAIR judgment on the Wife?
Is this a JUST judgement on the Wife?
What is the punishment for the Man?

Can you just see how the religion of Lah humiliates "righteous" Muslim wives?

honesttalk21:
On another note, the Christian assertion that Jesus is the Word made flesh ultimately falls apart under scrutiny. If “Word of God” refers to divine essence, then figures like Adam, angels, and even the universe itself created by God’s command would also share in that divinity. If miracles are what establish godhood, then we’d have to consider Moses and Elijah as gods too. The phrase “Son of God” poses its own contradictions; if taken literally, it clashes with scripture, and if seen as metaphorical, it loses its impact. The Qur’an brings back a sense of balance by recognizing Jesus as the Messiah, a servant, a prophet, and a sign but never as God.

Is this assertions of Christians or statements from the Bible?
Correct yourself please!

Jesus himself according to Quran 4:171 is the command of Allah (Jesus IS Allah's Word, cast down to Mary). You changed (wa kalimatuhu) to (Kalimatun minhu) which is not in Quran 4:171.
Why do Muslims tell so much opposite of T.R. U. T.H.s just to defend Islam?

honesttalk21:
If indeed you are honest, present your findings on the Aramaic and Hebrew of John 1 and show that the phrase translating to bi-idhniLlah isn't in the Arabic of the Qur'an verses of Jesus 's miracles.

I don't understand what you mean but I can do better by giving you the Greek of John 1:1 . The Aramaic and Hebrew of John 1:1 are translations just as English is a translation.

Please find attached!

honesttalk21:
....
In Islam, Jesus is revered as a prophet, a sign, and a servant of Allah – all while maintaining the purity of God’s oneness. This is the essence of balance: to love and follow Jesus without elevating him to the status of God.

Islam really doesn't know God because if you do, you will not create a new form of monotheism without the TRUE God of Creation.

Islam desires a God like the Creations where God can be in one place and location at a time.

TRINITY is a Description of YHWH
1. YHWH is One
2. YHWH is Unlike His Creations
3. YHWH can be SOMEWHERE and EVERYWHERE at the same time
4. The whole Universe is contained within YHWH (there is NOTHING outside Him)

This is what Mohammed didn't understand or chose not to understand.
1. Allah is one (Don't forget that I lis is One too)
2. Allah is very much like creations who can only be in one location at a time.
3. Allah is a subset of the Universe before he created his throne above the seventh heaven with air above him and water below his throne

Sunan Ibn Majah 182
Waki' bin Hudus narrated that his paternal uncle Abu Razin said: "I said: 'O Messenger of Allah, where was our Lord before He created His creation?' He said: He was above the clouds, below which was air, and above which was air and water. Then He created His Throne above the water.'"

I am sure you will explain away the words of your prophet as usual.

honesttalk21:
Even the idea that God’s love necessitated Him becoming flesh is a bit off the mark. In Islam, it’s taught that Allah’s mercy extends to everyone. He cares for both believers and non-believers, the thankful and the ungrateful alike. However, His special love is reserved for those who choose to follow His guidance. Love doesn’t imply that God has to diminish Himself to connect with humanity; rather, it signifies that He elevates humanity through revelation and forgiveness.

I asked you a question you have not answered:
Is it possible to undo a violation of the kunfayakun of God?

Does God's forgiveness without justice remove the violation of the kunfayakun of God?

Think before you answer these two questions?

honesttalk21:
So, who exactly was Jesus? He was a Word from Allah, but not the eternal Word. He was a spirit created by Allah, distinct from Allah Himself. He was the Messiah, endowed with miracles, yet never considered divine. He stated, “I am the servant of Allah.” The Qur’an cautions: “They have disbelieved who say, ‘Allah is the Messiah, son of Mary.’ Say: Who has power to prevent Allah if He willed to destroy the Messiah, son of Mary, his mother, and everyone on earth?” (Qur’an 5:17).

Repeating yourself doesn't make you correct. It is just an expression of wish predicated by your Islamic scholars.

Can you show any miracle of Allah that was witnessed by anyone by which we can conclude that he is God the Creator? Talk is cheap sir!

Who is JESUS?
Jesus is God YHWH who entered into His Creation so that He can take their punishment that His Justice might be fulfilled on Sinners AND that His Mercy can be extended on those sinners who accept His Love and Sacrifice.
Why do you think His message was the GOOD NEWS?
The price of your freedom has been paid by your God so that you who should spend eternity in Hell is set free and given a place with God.

John 1:12-13:
"But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."


Islamic theology without basis

In Islam,
-Jibril is the Holy Spirit!
-Angels are not spirits but created from light
-The nature of spirit is unknown
-Jesus is also a Spirit

Tell me is Jesus also the Holy Spirit or He is the unholy Spirit?

honesttalk21:
In Islam, Jesus is revered as a prophet, a sign, and a servant of Allah – all while maintaining the purity of God’s oneness. This is the essence of balance: to love and follow Jesus without elevating him to the status of God.

Islam came for just one purpose!
To mislead people away from the Free Gift of Salvation paid for by God Himself.

If you care to note:
Islam ACCEPTS almost everything in the religion of Jews and Christians that have nothing to do with SALVATION!
But
Islam REJECTS everything in the religion of Jews and Christians that has to do with SALVATION

In Islam:
1. Jesus did NOT die on the Cross
2. Jesus did NOT resurrect from the dead
3. Jesus did not save us by His blood

Islam turns the face of people from the Gift of Salvation from God to humans to Observance of Religious Rituals

honesttalk21:
Some Christians often reference John 1:1 and Colossians 1:16 to support the idea that Jesus is the eternal Word of God, the one through whom everything came into being. However, if we take a closer look, the reality becomes much clearer.

The Greek term "Logos" simply translates to word, speech, or expression. Interestingly, the Qur’an also refers to Jesus as "Kalimatun minhu," which means a Word from Allah, but that doesn’t imply he is God. It signifies that he was created by God’s command, “Be.” Allah Himself states: “Indeed, the likeness of Jesus with Allah is as the likeness of Adam. He created him from dust, then said to him: Be, and he was” (Qur’an 3:59). If being a “Word of God” equates to divinity, then Adam, who had no father or mother, would hold an even higher status.

ALL Christians (including the heretical ones like JW) know from their Bible that Jesus created EVERYTHING and not "some Christians"
It is the Bible that says that
1. John 1:1-4
Jesus was God the Eternal Word who created ALL things
2. Col 1:16
Jesus created ALL things including Angels, Human and Everything visible and invisible.

If "Kalimatun minhu" mean "Word from him" can you explain why your prophet calls Jesus "Kalimatullah" in Arabic meaning "Word of Allah."

Have you checked that (Kalimatun minhu) is not in Quran 4:171, where did you get it?
What is in Qur'an 4:171 is (wa kalimatuhu), which literally means "and His word."

If you note exactly what Allah says in your Qur'an (which you don't believe anyways), you will always bring your scholars to re-interprete the Qur'an.

Quran 4:171
O People of the Scripture, do not exaggerate in your religion, and do not say about Allah except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, was only a messenger of Allah and His word which He sent to Mary and a spirit from Him.....

The Subject:
Jesus
What He is:
1. A Messenger
2. Allah's Word (His word) وَكَلِمَتُهُ (wa kalimatuhu)
3. A Spirit from Allah (from him)

Is this correct?

If Jesus is the Word of Allah, it means that he is the kunfayakun of Allah whether you like it or not. According to Qur'an 4:171, Jesus was NOT created by the command of Allah, Jesus Himself is the Command of Allah (it goes against what your Scholars teach,but his is what Allah says). Too bad you follow your scholars rather than Allah!

honesttalk21:
When it comes to Jesus’ miracles, they don’t necessarily indicate divinity. The Qur’an recounts how he fashioned a bird from clay and breathed life into it, but it emphasizes that this was done bi idhnillāh “by Allah’s permission.” Do you say this isn't in the Arabic of the Qur'an or claim it's absence in your misconstrued versions?
Moses parted the sea, Abraham was saved from fire, and Muhammad pbuh split the moon yet none of them were gods. Miracles serve as demonstrations of God’s power, not evidence of godhood.

Miracles by themselves do not equate Divinity.
Unfortunately, there are Miracles that are exclusive only to God like
1. Creation of Life
2. Forgiveness of Sin
Not one human being is given this privilege as it belongs only to God.

Mohammed did not split the moon. Mohammed was copying the Poem of the pre-Islamic Arab Christian poet called Imru' al-Qais.
Imru' al-Qais lived in the 6th century CE, before the birth of Muhammad (around 570 CE), making his poetry part of the Jahiliyyah (pre-Islamic) Arabic poetic tradition.
Why was Allah copying the poem Imru' al-Qais. wrote for his woman?

Secondly, Qur'an 54:1 never ever said anywhere that Mohammed split the moon, this is the voice of your scholars you are hearing rather than Allah's voice.

If you disagree, I can help you throw more spanners in the wheel of Untruths you have been fed with

So[b], what other miracle did Allah use to confirm that he sent Mohammed to the Arabs?
[/b]

honesttalk21:
Regarding the virgin birth, the true testament wasn’t in some hidden biological miracle but in the baby Jesus speaking from the cradle, declaring: “Indeed, I am the servant of Allah. He has given me the Scripture and made me a prophet” (Qur’an 19:30). Right from the start, Jesus proclaimed his servitude to God, not his equality with Him.

And Mary forgot to tell Luke this story!?

But the argument was about the Virgin Birth of Jesus. You said

Tell us it is a lie that the rarity of Jesus isn't that he had no father but he has a mother. He was commanded into being to serve as a sign to the Israelites

I asked what was the Evidence that Jesus was Born without a Father to the Jews?
Only islamic miracles happen without WITNESSES

Your prophet again was copying tales of the ancients again and putting it in the Qur'an as if it was from Allah. The source is the Arabic Infancy Gospel written about 6th century AD (600 years after the Jesus).

Indeed Mohamed is the voice claiming to be Allah, this is why he forgets that Allah was the one supposed to be speaking and not himself while dictating the Qur'an.

honesttalk21:
Christians also refer to Jesus as the Son of God. However, the Bible itself refers to Adam as the son of God, Israel as God’s firstborn son, and the righteous as sons of God. Clearly, this is metaphorical, indicating a closeness to God rather than literal divinity. The Qur’an clarifies this confusion: “Say: He is Allah, One. Allah, the Eternal. He neither begets nor is begotten” (Qur’an 112:1–3). Asking who fathered Jesus is akin to asking who fathered Adam – both were created by God without human fathers.

No!
The problem is ridiculously simple.
The Identity or personality called Allah is different from the Identity or personality called YHWH.

This is the problem and it is the Truth.

Is Allah the same as YHWH?

Only God YHWH chooses who He calls SONS and the reverse is IMPOSSIBLE sir!

I had to open a new page to deal with this as Islamically, the Word Masih does not carry any connotation of ANOINTING!

honesttalk21:
The term al-Masīḥ comes from the root م-س-ح (m-s-ḥ), which encompasses several connected meanings:
To wipe, anoint, or touch (for example, مسح رأسه means he wiped over his head).
To travel widely or move quickly across the earth.

According to Lisan al-Arab, the root مسح

المَسْحُ Al-Masihu refers to passing a hand over something, wiping away, cleaning, or anointing.

مَسَحَه Masha means to touch or stroke with the hand, whether to remove dirt, sweat, or to offer a blessing.

تَمَسَّحَ Tamassaha means to wipe oneself with something or to seek a blessing (tabarruk).

This is used in Qur’an 5:6, which instructs to wipe over your heads.

Therefore, al-Masih can be understood as “the one who has received a divine anointing/touch” or “the one who wipes away affliction.”

The significance of "al-Masih" for Isa ibn Maryam is explained by scholars as follows:

He was blessed with an anointing.

He would heal the sick with his touch, by Allah’s permission.

He was a traveler who roamed the land with asceticism.

The Arabic root "م-س-ح" (m-s-ḥ) primarily means:

*To wipe, rub, or stroke with the hand or a similar motion.
*To clean by wiping or sweeping.
*To survey or scan, as in measuring an area.

Derived words include:
مَسَحَ (masaḥa): The verb "to wipe" or "to rub."
مَسْح (masḥ): The noun form, meaning "wiping," "survey," or "scanning."
مِسَاحَة (misāḥa): "Area" or "surface," related to measuring or scanning.
مَاسِح (māsiḥ): An active participle meaning "one who wipes" or "surveyor."
مَمْسُوح (mamsūḥ): Passive participle meaning "wiped."

To Anointing means to CHOSEN symbolised by Pouring OIL on the head of the person (NOT touching or Wiping or Rubbing)

It is a Jewish religious practice to Anoint a person for service to God as a Priest or a King or a Prophet: meaning that the person Carries the embodiment of God's Spirit upon themselves.

Don't snuggle in words that are not in the definition. Just say that Islam doesn't know the meaning of Messiah!

honesttalk21:
His title stands in contrast to al-Masih al-Dajjal, who is described as “wiped/obliterated in one eye,” symbolizing deformity and falsehood.

Was the Dajjal also anointed?
Was Jesus wiped or obliterated anywhere to qualify for your definition?

Why did your prophet compared the Dajjal with Allah instead of with Jesus the Messiah?

honesttalk21:
You throw your scripture away at this point? Hahaha! Isn't the common evangelical apology not For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that whosoever believeth in him ..... John 3:16. Please before Jesus did God hate his creation?

Without God becoming man he is neither just or loving? Please what bunkum are you saying?

You are also saying that justice is when the obedient and deliberately arrogantly disobedient are giving the same reward. What a skewed sense of justice.

Good that you know John 3:16 for this is the core of the Gospel. Reject it to your damnation!

You asked:
Please before Jesus did God hate his creation?

You miss the point:
1. It was because of God's love for humans that He sent Jesus to be the ransom of whoever will believe
2. The sacrifice of Jesus even covered those who died at the time of Noah
1Pet 3:18-20:
"For Christ also has once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and preached to the spirits in prison (hell); Which sometime were disobedient, when once the long-suffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water."

Sorry, Gods love is DEEP for humans that He could do the unthinkable that the violation of his kunfayakun will not result in our just punishment.

Does Allah love non-muslims?

honesttalk21:
Your pathetic example on divorce is pure garbage. Do you not see the point that it's an essential warning being Divorce is one of the most hated things in the sight of Allah so letting the intending divorcees know that once divorced it is not easily undone so it isn't reduced to a thing of play.

Unfortunately, you did not see the logical and moral disaster your prophet created with this.

Let me show you:
1. A righteous Muslim woman married a Muslim man with a short temper and she truly loves her husband.
2. One day, this man (without evidence) accused his wife of an offence and in anger, he pronounced divorce THREE times on his wife
3. Two days later, he discovered that he was in error and the wife that loves him is gone
4. According to Islam as allowed by Allah, this lovely obedient wife cannot go back to her husband for it is haram.
5. In Islamic wisdom, the woman must be "boreholed" by another willing Muslim who will marry her so that he can divorce her after.

What is the WISDOM in this my Brother?

honesttalk21:
Why did you strike out Jesus said before John 6... Is there a problem?

Does the Bible say God is father to believers in a literal sense as you play out the case of Jesus?
Well to you life is all play anyway.

It was supposed to be underlined an error that could trigger the post being deleted by Nairaland bots.

Did ANY Christian EVER use the Sonship of God in a LITERAL sense?

Sonship of God is a Descriptive Qualifier for anyone that is Of God!

If the Father is YHWH
And the Holy Spirit is YHWH
And Jesus the Word is YHWH

How can Jesus be a LITERAL son (biologically or spiritually)?

At the other hand, Jesus calls Himself the Son of God here on earth because Anyone who caused a woman to pregnant of a child is the FATHER of that Child!

What do you call the Man (respectfully) who made you Mother pregnant with you?


In Islam, what is the name of the Being who made Mary Pregnant of Jesus?
Is this not the Father of Jesus?

Sorry, even if you hate this truth, it is the truth!

honesttalk21:
Of course you always try to twist things if not outright mischievously misquote. Did your scripture not tell you God created things by command?

And God said, ‘Let there be light,’ and there was light.” (Genesis 1:3)

“And God said, ‘Let the earth bring forth vegetation...’ and it was so.” (Genesis 1:11)

“By the word of the Lord the heavens were made, and by the breath of his mouth all their host.” (Psalm 33:6)

“For he spoke, and it came to be; he commanded, and it stood firm.” (Psalm 33:9)

And Jesus is the Word by which EVERYTHING visible and invisible were created.

John 1:1-4:
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same (Word) was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him(the Word); and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men."

Col 1:16-17:
"For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist."


Is their anyone else you know that is the Word of God?

honesttalk21:
Look to your Psalm 33:6 is this breath not what all humanity share? Tell us it is a lie that the rarity of Jesus isn't that he had no father but he has a mother. He was commanded into being to serve as a sign to the Israelites who persist in stubbornness like you after numerous prophets and signs. So you think Jesus was more difficult than Adam who was moulded from clay and didn't have a father or mother?

Always quick to manufacture conjectures.

Which of the Jews was aware that Jesus was born of a Virgin? If non was aware, how could this be a sign unto them?

honesttalk21:
The spirit in Islam is something from Allah. Tell me one person that knows everything about it. Do you feign to know?

"Something from Allah" !!!
But you don't know what a spirit is: do you?

If a spirit is just something from Allah, how come Islam's holy spirit is an Angel called Jibril?

honesttalk21:
Of course you apologists refer to this story and ignore by Allah's leave. Why? Please explain why the verse doesn't say by himself?
Then if you hold unnecessarily strong to it tell us why this narration is not in your Bible?

Why did Jesus require Allah to support him with the holy spirit and not support himself with this by himself? Do you not see how what you shared in Quran 5:110 doesn't help you?

The Messiah, Isa son of Maryam, was only a messenger of Allah, His Word that He bestowed upon Maryam, and a spirit from Him.Qur’an 4:171

Notice two things:

Allah calls him al-Masih, but immediately limits his station: “only a messenger.”

Every miracle he did is stressed as bi-idhniLlāh (by Allah’s leave) never by his own autonomous power.

No other prophet in the Qur’an holds this title, as it represents a truly unique position. Isa was born without a father, spoke while still in the cradle, healed people with just a touch, raised the dead by the will of Allah, and is prophesied to return as a sign of the Hour.

Reading even the verse with the insertion "by the permission of Allah" shows that it was an interpolation by someone trying hard to protect Islam.

Not withstanding,
Is it UNTRUE that , You have been conversing with me on Nairaland by the permission of Allah?

So, what is special with Allah's permission when you have the ability to comprehend English (because you went to school) and you have a media device by which you communicate and you bought data with which you had access and you registered on Nairaland and you chose to speak about Islam etc.
Because All this were because YOU had the Ability (Allah only did not stop you from using this ability), so you say by the permission of Allah.


Thus, even if we apply this argument to Jesus,
It means that Jesus by Himself had the Ability to Create and Give Life, ability to Heal, ability to known the hidden things etc And Allah did NOT stop Him

NeoWanZaeed:
See ehn.. this is 21st century

Have 100% knowledge about a subject you want to argue or enlighten people about.

For that same reason, talking to you will be like speaking to a wall.

End of discussion.

Just answer the simple question and don't run away. I probably known Islam Better than you

Note:
An idol is a physical object that stands as an intermediary to the Deities and perform his functions

1. Is the black stone not your IDOL per this definition?

If the Blackstone is not your Idol, Why do you kiss it during hajj?


2. Can you please answer my question:
Does Allah have the power to become Human and still remain Almighty?


I am waiting.....!