₦airaland Forum

FreeStuffsNG:
In the meantime, deaths from starvation continue to mount – every day.
-Haaretz Magazine


And the world looks on. Smh.
Btw, Haaretz is a leading Isreali newspaper. This is not a report by Al-jazeera o.





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The award-winning author further stated that "the minorities did not want Biafra. The Igbos under Ojukwu went out of their way to block the creation of minority states. They imposed Biafra on minorities. The Ibos were thus engaged in two wars – fighting against big-time Nigeria and fighting against small-time minorities. The minorities were massacred by the Biafrans. A place in Sagbama in Ijaw land even has a festival celebrating the fact that they survived Biafra, and there are few other places like that in minority lands.”


Who was held for the genocide committed against the Nigerian minority tribes and their innocent children violently murdered and starved in defunct Eastern region of Nigeria before the Nigerian forces liberated them from their tormentors ?

Who was responsible for the violent murder of a defenseless Sir Tafawa Bello (1st PM, Federal Republic of Nigeria) and his innocent wife?

Who was held to account and indicted for violently killing all the leaders of other tribes and regions while freeing/ sparing their own leaders? The fingers are pointing at you.


Smh. Genocide is whataboutism for you.

Tell the IDF to go after Hamas fighters. That's what reasonable people are saying.

Leave defenseless babies and women. Stop killing and starving babies.

It's easier for Hamas to end this from releasing their hostages rather than this propaganda rhetorics.

But, they choose to eat their cakes while having it. Is it difficult releasing their starved hostages?

honesttalk21:
1. Did any hadith say Muhammad died from the poison of Khaybar?
No. The reports say he tasted the poisoned meat, spat it out, later mentioned lingering pain, and in his final illness said: I feel as if my aorta is being cut. That is not the same as the poison killed him. Some scholars counted his death as martyrdom due to lingering effects but martyrdom ≠ death by poison, and it does not fulfill Qur’an 69:44–46 (a conditional warning).


2. Did he say I feel my aorta is cut from that poison?
Yes but that’s figurative speech. Arabs used vivid imagery to describe pain. If an aorta were literally severed, death would be instant, not three years later.


3. The timeline matters.

Khaybar poisoning = year 7 AH.
Death = year 11 AH

Afterward he conquered Makkah, received Qur’an 5:3 (This day I have perfected your religion), delivered the Farewell Sermon, and passed away at 63.

That is mission completed, not mission cut short.


4. He was warned and protected.

Reports say the lamb’s shoulder itself warned him; he spat it out. Others who ate more died quickly; he did not.

Qur’an 5:67: Allah’s promise of protection meant safeguarding the mission, not wrapping him in a bubble against every trial.


5. Prophets are tested, not bubble-wrapped.

Qur’an 3:186: You will surely be tested…

Pain does not negate prophethood. By Christian belief, Jesus was scourged and crucified so pain is not proof of falsehood.


6. Why a painful illness?

Trials elevate rank; prophets endure the hardest tests.

A natural death after revelation was perfected (Q 5:3) is honor, not disgrace.

Jesus was saved from crucifixion; Muhammad pbuh completed his mission and died victorious. Different prophets, different decrees.


Bottom line:

No hadith says “he died from the poison.

His “aorta” remark = idiom, not literal autopsy.

He lived years after Khaybar, perfected the religion, and died naturally.

Qur’an 69:44–46 never applied, because he never lied.

If pain at death disproves a prophet, then Christianity undercuts itself first with the crucifixion.


Repeating “rat poison killed your prophet” won’t rewrite the record. The record shows survival, completion, and honor not failure.

Part TWO

honesttalk21:
1. Did any hadith say Muhammad died from the poison of Khaybar?
No. The reports say he tasted the poisoned meat, spat it out, later mentioned lingering pain, and in his final illness said: I feel as if my aorta is being cut. That is not the same as the poison killed him. Some scholars counted his death as martyrdom due to lingering effects but martyrdom ≠ death by poison, and it does not fulfill Qur’an 69:44–46 (a conditional warning).


2. Did he say I feel my aorta is cut from that poison?
Yes but that’s figurative speech. Arabs used vivid imagery to describe pain. If an aorta were literally severed, death would be instant, not three years later.


3. The timeline matters.

Khaybar poisoning = year 7 AH.
Death = year 11 AH

Afterward he conquered Makkah, received Qur’an 5:3 (This day I have perfected your religion), delivered the Farewell Sermon, and passed away at 63.

That is mission completed, not mission cut short.


4. He was warned and protected.

Reports say the lamb’s shoulder itself warned him; he spat it out. Others who ate more died quickly; he did not.

Qur’an 5:67: Allah’s promise of protection meant safeguarding the mission, not wrapping him in a bubble against every trial.


5. Prophets are tested, not bubble-wrapped.

Qur’an 3:186: You will surely be tested…

Pain does not negate prophethood. By Christian belief, Jesus was scourged and crucified so pain is not proof of falsehood.


6. Why a painful illness?

Trials elevate rank; prophets endure the hardest tests.

A natural death after revelation was perfected (Q 5:3) is honor, not disgrace.

Jesus was saved from crucifixion; Muhammad pbuh completed his mission and died victorious. Different prophets, different decrees.


Bottom line:

No hadith says “he died from the poison.

His “aorta” remark = idiom, not literal autopsy.

He lived years after Khaybar, perfected the religion, and died naturally.

Qur’an 69:44–46 never applied, because he never lied.

If pain at death disproves a prophet, then Christianity undercuts itself first with the crucifixion.


Repeating “rat poison killed your prophet” won’t rewrite the record. The record shows survival, completion, and honor not failure.

Nairaland wouldn't allow me post.

honesttalk21:
Repeating the same slogans won’t turn falsehood into truth. Simply shouting “Israel is not righteous, therefore Isaiah 53 must be Jesus” is not evidence.

The Book of Isaiah itself alternates. Sometimes the servant is Israel (Isaiah 41:8; 44:1–2; 49:3), sometimes an individual. Isaiah 53 belongs to that flow.

The Jewish reading that the servant is Israel collectively fits the context. And let’s be clear; if Israel isn’t sinless, neither were David, Solomon, or Peter. Yet Scripture still calls them righteous because of covenant faithfulness, not sinless perfection.


1. Sacrifice in the Law
Yes, Mosaic Law prescribed animal sacrifices. But forgiveness came only with a contrite heart. Psalm 51:16–17: “The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit, a broken and contrite heart.” Sacrifice was a sign of repentance, not a magical guilt-transfer to an animal. To claim otherwise ignores God’s own words.


2. “Partial Mercy” is a Misrepresentation
In Islam, Allah’s forgiveness is absolute. Wronging another person, however, also requires justice for the victim. That’s not “partial mercy” that’s perfect justice. The oppressor cannot hide behind cheap grace. In Christianity, a murderer or rapist could claim “Jesus paid it all” while the victim is erased. Islam dignifies the oppressed by rewarding their patience and restoring their rights. Mercy and justice work together.


3. Offense Against Man vs. God
Ezekiel 18:20 says: “The soul that sins shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father.” Your system violates this principle by shifting guilt onto another. Islam is consistent: sins against God are between you and Him; sins against people require both God’s pardon and restoration of the victim’s rights.


4. Deut. 18 & John 14–16
Deut. 18:18: the prophet will come from Israel’s “brothers.” The Ishmaelites are Israel’s closest brothers (Gen. 16:12; Deut. 2:4). That fits Muhammad pbuh, not Jesus, who was himself an Israelite.

John 16:13: the Spirit of Truth “will come” to guide into all truth, not speak on his own, and glorify Jesus. This aligns with Muhammad pbuh, who came later, delivering revelation from God and honoring Jesus as Messiah not God. The text points forward, not backward.


5. The “Aorta” Claim
Yes, the Prophet pbuh once said, “I feel as if my aorta is being cut.” That was metaphor, not medicine just as Jeremiah cried, “My heart is torn in me!” (Jer. 4:19). No one thinks his heart literally split open.

If poison truly killed him, why did his companion die within hours while he lived for three more years? Why did he live long enough to conquer Makkah, deliver the Farewell Sermon, and complete the religion (Qur’an 5:3)? That fulfills God’s promise (Qur’an 5:67) to protect him until his mission was complete. And if dying in pain disqualified a prophet, then by your logic, the crucifixion would disqualify Jesus.


Islam’s position is consistent:

Isaiah 53 = Israel as God’s covenant servant, not sinless perfection.

Sacrifice = symbol of repentance, not guilt-transfer.

Allah’s mercy = complete forgiveness + justice for victims.

Deut. 18 & John 16 = fulfilled in Muhammad pbuh, not Jesus.

The “aorta” statement = metaphor, not divine judgment.


Repeating distortions doesn’t make them true. As the Qur’an says:l “Truth stands clear from falsehood” (2:256).

You have repeatedly said these four times now without answering the basic questions I asked you not falsify my rebuttal against you. Until you find a proper rebuttal, repeating these same things one billion times changes nothing. It is just falsehood repeated many many times.

Your prophet eat a poisoned beef
The little he took was enough to do the damage damage: he never recovered. No wonder you cannot answer a direct question but reassert your wish

1. Did your hadith say Mohammed died from the Ailment from eating the poisoned meat at Khayba?
Yes or No!?
2. Did Mohammed himself say that "I feel as if my aorta is being cut from that poison."
Yes or No!?

The questions are straight to the point. But trust Muslims, they will not answer a question because answering them breaks the standard Islamic narrative.

Your argument:
The companions died immediately because they swallowed too much of the poisoned beef
Your prophet tasted of the poisoned beef without swallowing much.

So, any difference is just in the quantity of rat poison swallowed and the time to kill.

Your prophet died by rat poison!

You know the problem:
Can you answer WHY
1. Jibril didn't warn Mohammed that the beef contained rat poison.
2. Even the food did not say "Oh prophet of Allah, rat poison is in me o: don't eat me"?
(Considering the fact that even trees and stones acknowledge Mohammed as the prophet of Allah)
3. Allah saved Jesus according to Islam BUT allowed the Greatest prophet in the universe to die very SLOWLY through rat poison? Why?
4. How come Allah did not relieve the Greatest prophet in the universe from the AGONY and PAIN from the Poison for THREE straight years? Does Allah hate Mohammed this much?


Again, I am sure you would say everything except answering my questions

You are just repeating yourself as if the repetition will magically make the untrue become teue

honesttalk21:
1. Is Israel the righteous servant?
No. The Tanakh calls Israel stubborn, rebellious, and adulterous (Isaiah 1:4; Jer. 3:6; Ezek. 16). That’s why they went into exile. The “servant” in Isaiah shifts: sometimes Israel, sometimes the remnant, sometimes a prophetic figure. But sinful Israel as a “sinless substitute for the nations” makes no sense.

Meaning that IF Israel is NOT the Righteous servant, then Israel was not being referred to in Isaiah 53!

honesttalk21:
2. Did God put our sins on Israel?
No. Neither the Tanakh nor Qur’an says this. Jewish reading: Israel suffers because of nations’ sins (persecution), not instead of them. Making Israel the universal sin-bearer turns the nation into a savior which no faith tradition teaches consistently.

But the sins were put upon the Righteous Servant who when have established is not Israel!

honesttalk21:
3. Why Temple sacrifices?
They symbolized atonement and purification, but were never magical transfers of guilt. God said: “The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit” (Psalm 51:16-17). Hosea 6:6: “I desire mercy, not sacrifice.” Sacrifices pointed to repentance, not substitution.

Was this an ordinance prescribed for the forgiveness of sins for the Jews by God?
If it is, the sacrifice is their ransom!

honesttalk21:
4. Does Allah only forgive partially?
False. Qur’an 39:53: “Allah forgives all sins.” Forgiveness is total. But Islam balances justice. If you wrong someone, their rights aren’t erased. Victims are repaid in the Hereafter. Your system erases the victim while “washing” the sinner.

As long as the forgiven has to pay for his sin, his forgiveness is partial.
As long as the one who received mercy still has to pay, the mercy is Partial!

honesttalk21:
5. Justice for crimes like rape.
“Unrape” is impossible but justice means punishment + compensation, not undoing history. Courts don’t “unrape”; they punish and repay. Likewise, God in Islam ensures the oppressed are not forgotten. In your system, the victim is erased while the sinner walks free. How is this mutually balanced?

God says offence against anyone is offence against God. On your behalf God thus publishes sin.
As long as some offences like rape cannot be undone, it is impossible to restore that which was lost.
Moreover, only in Islam is a person rewarded for being mistreated.

honesttalk21:
6. Deut. 18:18 & John 16:13.
Deut. 18:18: Prophet like Moses from Israel’s “brethren” = Ishmaelites → Muhammad pbuh, not Jesus.

John 16:13: Spirit of Truth guides, speaks not from himself, glorifies Jesus and Muhammad pbuh fits. Holy Spirit was already active before Jesus left.

#Are these verses also referencing Mohammed?
Deut 18:2, Deut 18:7,
#Is it UNTRUE that Mohammed himself says his Aorta was being dealt with because of the rat poison a Jewish woman put in his food!
#According to John 14:17
-Did Mohammed live with the Disciples of Jesus?
-Did the Disciples of Jesus know anyone called Mohammed?

Repeating falsehood a billion times will not magically transform it into the truth.

I know you wish this was Mohammed BUT he isn't, please find another argument

honesttalk21:
Israel is not righteous and cannot bear the world’s sins.
God never laid our sins on Israel.
Sacrifices = symbols, not substitution.
Allah’s forgiveness is total + just.
Islam protects victims; your system erases them.
Muhammad pbuh fulfills Deut. 18:18 & John 16:13 more consistently than Jesus in Christian readings.

Repeating falsehood wouldn't make it turn into the truth even if you repeat yourself a billion times.
This was why you couldn't answer the question I posed from the verses.

honesttalk21:
The Qur’an’s verse about the aorta is a warning, not history. The Prophet pbuh survived the poison at Khaybar and lived years afterward, completing his mission.
Far from disproving his Prophethood, his survival after Khaybar shows Allah’s protection until his mission was complete.
His words about the aorta were figurative for pain, not a medical report. If dying in pain disqualifies a prophet, then what do you say about Jesus being beaten, humiliated, and crucified according to your own belief?”

1. Did your hadith say Mohammed died from the Ailment from eating the poisoned meat at Khayba?
Yes or No!?
2. Did Mohammed himself say that "I feel as if my aorta is being cut from that poison."
Yes or No!?




Muslims will begin to lie in the face of overwhelming EVIDENCE against what their Qur'an, Hadiths or Tafsirs say. Notice how you have to follow the narrative of your scholars even when they contradict either Allah, Mohammed, the Qur'an, the Hadiths or Tafsirs
SMH!

Honesttalk21

Another hadith to show that Allah cut off Mohammed's Aorta

Sunan Abi Dawud 4513
Narrated Umm Mubashshir: She said to the Prophet during the sickness from which he died: "What do you think about your illness, Apostle of Allah?" He said: "I do not think about my illness except that (the poisoned sheep of which he had eaten with you at Khaibar). This is the time when it cut off my aorta."


This is the testimony of Mohammed himself isn't it?
According to this hadith
1. Did Mohammed die from this poisoning?
2. Was Mohammed's Aorta cut according to Mohammed?

honesttalk21:
1. Is Israel a righteous servant?
No. Israel as a nation is not righteous. The Tanakh repeatedly describes Israel as stubborn, rebellious, unfaithful, and adulterous (Isaiah 1:4; Jeremiah 3:6; Ezekiel 16). That’s why Israel was sent into exile. In Isaiah, the “servant” imagery shifts, sometimes it’s the nation, sometimes the faithful remnant, and sometimes an individual prophetic figure. But the idea that sinful Israel is the “sinless substitute for the nations” doesn’t fit. This is why Christians interpret the “Servant” of Isaiah 53 not as the sinful nation, but as a righteous individual set apart.

If Israel is not a righteous servant, then this is
A proof that Isaiah 53 is not about Israel!
Is Jesus a righteous servant?

honesttalk21:
2. Did God put your sins on Israel as a Muslim?
No. Neither the Tanakh nor the Qur’an says “the sins of Muslims (or nations) were placed on Israel.” In Jewish interpretation, Israel suffers because of the nations’ sins (persecution, oppression), not in place of the nations’ sins. Big difference. The nations thought Israel was cursed, but God ultimately vindicates Israel. So the claim that “Israel bore your sins” collapses. It makes Israel into a savior, which Jews, Christians, and Muslims don’t actually believe.

If Israel did not carry your sins then this is
A proof that Isaiah 53 is not about Israel!
Did Jesus carry the sins of the world according to the Bible?

honesttalk21:
3. Why did Jews sacrifice in the Temple?
Because the Law of Moses required sacrifices as signs of atonement, purification, and covenant renewal. The blood symbolized that sin leads to death, and that humans need repentance and cleansing. But notice: sacrifice was never a magical transfer of guilt. God Himself said, “The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit; a broken and contrite heart, O God, You will not despise” (Psalm 51:16–17). Hosea 6:6 adds: “I desire mercy, not sacrifice.” The prophets constantly rebuked Israel for offering sacrifices while living in sin proving the rituals themselves didn’t save. They pointed beyond themselves to repentance and obedience.
So sacrifice = symbol, not substitution. Otherwise, repentance would be irrelevant.

You have said it @highlighted in yellow.
The sacrificial animal becomes a ransom for their judgement as Israelites

honesttalk21:
4. You claim Allah only forgives partially.
That’s a strawman. In Islam, Allah forgives completely when He forgives. Qur’an 39:53 says: “Do not despair of the mercy of Allah. Indeed, Allah forgives all sins.” What you confuse is the balance between mercy and justice. If someone wrongs another, forgiveness doesn’t mean the victim’s rights are erased. The oppressor remains accountable unless the victim pardons him. That’s not “partial mercy” that’s mercy plus justice. In your system, God forgives the sinner but leaves the victim with nothing but scars. In Islam, the victim’s suffering is acknowledged and repaid in the Hereafter. Which is more just?

True!
Allah's forgiveness is partial because the forgiven must still pay for their sin according to you.
And
As long as the recipient of mercy must still pay for their Sins, Allah's mercy is Partial.

honesttalk21:
5. Your “compensation for rape” challenge.
You argue, “Unrape is impossible therefore justice is impossible.” That’s wrong. Justice isn’t undoing history; it’s repayment and rebalancing. Even in human courts, no judge “unrapes” a victim. Instead, the criminal is punished and compensation is awarded. That’s human justice. Likewise, God’s justice in Islam punishes or forgives according to His wisdom, but always ensures that the oppressed are not forgotten. You mock this as “being rewarded for victimization,” but in your system, the victim is erased while the sinner walks away clean. Which system is actually “silly”?

Justice is returning EXACTLY what was stolen, killed or destroyed in one or several folds. There is no justice for the offended without full restoration according to what was deprived him/her.

Nigerians shout, "Justice for Mobad"!
Can justice for Mobad be done other than being Mobad back to Life and heal the Trauma caused everyone involved!?

honesttalk21:
6. Deut. 18:18 and John 16:13.
Deut. 18:18: God promises a prophet like Moses from among the brethren of Israel meaning the Ishmaelites. Christians claim this is Jesus, but Jesus was an Israelite, not from Israel’s “brethren.” Muhammad pbuh fits a law-giving prophet, raised from the descendants of Ishmael.

The scripture is clear on this:
1. The person is from amongst the Israelites: Moses made it clear
Deu 18:15:
"The LORD your God will raise up to you a Prophet from the middle of you, of your brothers, like to me; to him you shall listen;"

Are these verses referencing Mohammed?
Deut 18:2, Deut 18:7,

2. Mohammed's Aorta was cut for speaking lies about God
Deu 18:20:
"But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die."

Quran 69:44-47
Had he (Prophet Muhammad) faked some sayings in Our name, We would have certainly seized him by the right hand, and then severed his aorta (life-artery), and none of you could have withheld Us from doing so.

Mohammed himself says his Aorta was being dealt with because of the rat poison a Jewish woman put in his food!

Is this untrue?

3. Jesus is the prophet spoken about by Moses in Deut 18:18
Acts 3:20-23:
"And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached to you: Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began. For Moses truly said to the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up to you of your brothers, like to me; him shall you hear in all things whatever he shall say to you. And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people."

Find me just one Qur'an verse that says Mohammed was the prophet Moses spoke about?

honesttalk21:
John 16:13: Jesus promises the Spirit of Truth, who will guide into all truth, not speak on his own, and glorify Jesus. This aligns perfectly with Muhammad pbuh, who delivered revelation (not his own words), revealed truth, and honored Jesus as Messiah but not God. Christians say this is the Holy Spirit, but the Holy Spirit was already active before but the Holy Spirit was already active before Jesus’ departure (Luke 1:15; Luke 3:22).

The same Book of John says Who the Spirit of Truth is:
Is Mohammad the Holy Spirit (the Spirit of Truth)
John 14:17:
"He is the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you."

Did Mohammed live with the Disciples of Jesus?
Did the Disciples of Jesus know anyone called Mohammed?

Do you concur that Jesus sent Mohammed to the world? John 15:26

honesttalk21:
As for the “aorta” claim, it’s baseless. The Prophet pbuh died naturally after completing his mission. And the Qur’an was revealed in Arabic not because God “only speaks Arabic,” but because revelation comes in the language of its people its message, however, is universal.

Mohammed certainly definitely died from the poison which affected his Aorta

Sahih al-Bukhari 4428
Narrated ‘Aisha: The Prophet in his illness in which he died, used to say, "O ‘Aisha! I still feel the pain caused by the food I ate at Khaibar, and at this time, I feel as if my aorta is being cut from that poison."

honesttalk21:
Essentially, Israel is not righteous so it cannot be the universal sin-bearer.

God never placed the sins of Muslims (or anyone) on Israel.

Good, Isaiah 53 couldn't have been about Israel then. Thank you!

honesttalk21:
Sacrifice was symbolic, not substitution.

But this was the ordinance given by God for the forgiveness of the children of Israel!
Thank you!

honesttalk21:
Allah forgives completely, but justice ensures victims aren’t erased. Forgiveness from Allah is contingent upon the wronged party's rights being restored or their forgiveness being sought in this life.

Your system erases victims while pretending to show mercy, contradicting Ezekiel 18:20.

Until you can negate the logic:
Any forgiveness that requires the forgiven to pay back is not Total.
Any Mercy that requires the guilty to pay back is only partial.

honesttalk21:
Muhammad pbuh fulfills Deut. 18:18 and John 16:13 better than the Christian interpretation of Jesus does.

By splitting the moon!?
Did Jesus send down Mohammed?
Does the Apostles of Jesus know Mohammed?
Does Mohammed live in the Apostles of Jesus?

How you manage to successfully convince yourself of these errors is disturbing at best!

Dogalmighty17:
Israel is proudly carrying on with genocide. Let them continue. At least the world will rest from their endless cries of victimhood. They have become modern day Nazis.

Israel should assume that Hamas is not holding any Israeli as hostage and move on with their lives abi!?

honesttalk21:
If injustice cannot be undone, then your cross collapses too. Crucifying an innocent doesn’t “unrape the victim” or restore what was destroyed. Justice can only stand if God holds the sinner accountable and that is exactly what Islam teaches: “Every soul earns only against itself, and no bearer of burdens will bear the burden of another” (Qur’an 6:164, Ezek. 18:20).

This meaning that you are not listening.
1. Even God known that injustice cannot be undone
2. God therefore says crime unto humanity is crime unto Him
3. The punishment of crime unto God is Eternity in Hell fires
4. No one gets rewarded for being unjustly treated
5. Whether in heaven or hell everyone will receive his wages for whatever he has done.
6. Since ALL humanity is guilty of sin and thus candidates of hell, God took up the punishment for whoever cannot afford to carry his burden in hell
7. This is a Gift of God for whoever will receive this Gift

So, as a Muslim, you will bear your own burden in Hell for you have sinned against the Almighty God in thought, Deeds and Inactions to Him directly or Indirectly.

I beg you to think as you CANNOT bear your burden of Sin for Eternity in Hell

honesttalk21:
You ask if Israel is righteous or if Israel bears Muslims’ sins. Isaiah himself answers: “Israel, My servant” (Isa. 41:8; 44:1–2; 49:3). Israel suffers at the hands of nations, not because guilt was transferred, but because nations oppressed them. Isaiah 53 is the nations confessing: “We thought him cursed, but he was pierced because of our transgressions.” That is not substitution it is vindication. God shows Israel’s suffering was unjust, and that revelation brings recognition and healing.

My question was simple and direct. I didn't ask if Israel was a servant of God, I asked to you as a Muslim
1. Is Israel a RIGHTEOUS servant? Yes or No!
2. Did God put your sin on Israel as a Muslim? Yes or No!

honesttalk21:
And Ezekiel 18 still stands: “The soul that sins shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father.” If guilt cannot pass from father to son, how can it leap onto Jesus? Unless you say God contradicts Himself.

Even sacrifice in Torah was never guilt transfer. Hosea 6:6: “I desire mercy, not sacrifice.” Psalm 51: “You do not delight in sacrifice… the sacrifices of God are a broken spirit.” Sacrifices symbolized repentance, not substitution.

Tell me why the Jews made sacrifice for sin in the Temple then according to the law of Moses?

honesttalk21:
So Islam is consistent: God forgives sins against Him through repentance, and He compensates victims for sins against them. Christianity is inconsistent; it denies injustice can be undone yet claims it is erased by punishing the innocent.

You have shown that Allah CANNOT forgive TOTALLY!
You have also shown that Allah's mercy is Partial!
Another prove of a Deity who speaks only Arabic and makes claims he cannot back up with action.

Just tell me how a raped victim can be compensated?

Only in Islam is a person rewarded just because he was victimised.
SMH!!

honesttalk21:
And no, I’m not a Jew—because Jews rejected Muhammad pbuh, the final prophet foretold (Deut. 18:18, John 16:13). Islam alone preserves the pure monotheism of Abraham, Moses, and Jesus.

What a silly argument! How you managed to convince yourself that a corrupted book contains Mohammed is unbelievable.
1. Deut 18:18 no wonder, Allah cut the Aorta of your prophet for speaking lies
2. John 16:13 so, Jesus sent Mohammed to this world?

They think that the more they insist on a lie, the more it becomes the truth. SMH!!

We are still looking for Mohammed's name in the Torah and Injeel till now!

honesttalk21:
1. Justice in Islam vs. Christianity
You mock Islam because Allah does not “undo” a crime. But your Bible doesn’t claim God undoes crimes either — it says He “remembers them no more” (Jer. 31:34, Heb. 10:17). That means He no longer holds them against the sinner. Islam says the same, but with an added dimension: no victim is erased. Every oppressor must repay, and every victim is compensated, even if the oppressor repents. That’s not partial forgiveness; that’s comprehensive justice.

Meanwhile, your system allows the guilty to walk free at the expense of the innocent (Jesus), and leaves the victim uncompensated. Which is really “partial”?

Even you agree that Injustice can NEVER be UNDONE, it can only be punished. It is an exercise in futility for you to think that rewarding the offended is justice for them. There is nothing like compensation if the evil and it's resultant consequences can never be rewritten. Meaning that justice in Islam is a fluke.

Also, Allah does partial forgiveness and partial mercy: so much for a God!

If Jesus was a man, you have a point BUT he isn't a son of Adam sir. This is Why the Word became Human somas to Represent us .

The key to Salvation is that it is FREE for the sinner even though impossible to pay by non other than God Himself.

honesttalk21:
2. Isaiah 53 in Context
Isaiah repeatedly calls Israel God’s “servant”: 41:8–9, 44:1–2, 49:3. To read “servant” as Israel is not far-fetched — it is the prophet’s own language.

The servant can be sinful and still chosen for God’s mission. Israel is called “God’s son” (Hos. 11:1) and His “witness” (Isa. 43:10), even while guilty of sin. So the objection “Israel sinned, therefore not the servant” collapses.

“Bearing sins” in Hebrew often means enduring the consequences of others’ evil, not transferring guilt (cf. Lam. 5:7). Israel bore exile, persecution, and oppression caused by the nations’ iniquity — not their guilt.

You are just repeating yourself.
Is Israel a Righteous Nation?
Yes or No!
Does Israel beat the Sin of Muslims?
Yes or No!

honesttalk21:
3. Ezekiel 18 Destroys Substitution
God says plainly: “The soul that sins shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father” (Ezek. 18:20). That is divine law. If guilt cannot pass from father to son, how can it pass from humanity to Jesus? If Isaiah 53 meant substitution, it would directly contradict Ezekiel. The Jewish/Islamic reading avoids contradiction; the Christian reading creates it.

Another repetition In have dealt with meaning that you chosen to be ignorant.
I can't help you with that!

honesttalk21:
4. Your Own Bible Supports Compensation
You sneer that Islam says victims are “rewarded” for being wronged. But your own scripture says: “Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord” (Rom. 12:19). Repayment is exactly compensation. If you mock that, you mock Paul as well.

Boohoo!
It is our God that is Repaying NOT the Righteous or the Sinner. Didn't you read my explanation!?
Please go back and read!
LOL!

honesttalk21:
5. The Choice
Jewish/Islamic reading: Israel, God’s servant, suffers because of the nations, is vindicated, and God remains consistent with His law of justice.

Christian reading: One man dies for all, guilt is transferred, and God violates His own word in Ezekiel.


You can’t have it both ways. Either accept scripture as it stands, or admit you’re following Paul’s theology, not the Torah and Prophets.

If the Jews were correct, why did you choose to be a Muslim and not a Jew?
If the Jews were correct, why did you choose to follow Allah and not YHWH?

Islam is a compilation of Rituals without Spirituality!



Let me ask you a basic spiritual Question:
1. Who prescribed the ordinance of sacrifice of animals for the sin of Israel?
2. Why?

honesttalk21:
If your daughter were raped, would you accept God simply saying I will remember his sins no more’ (Jeremiah 31:34)? Is that justice or erasing her pain?

Which is better
1. For God to say, the one who violated a person violated Me and say
Rom 12:19:
"Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place to wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, said the Lord."

honesttalk21:
In Islam, no injustice is erased. The Qur’an says Whoever does an atom’s weight of wrong shall see it (99:7–. On Judgment Day, the rapist’s good deeds are taken and given to the victim. If his good deeds run out, her sins are placed on him, and he is cast into Hell. That is accountability.

Justice is to unrape the raped: which is an impossibility.

What good deeds will atone for a violent rape and the attendant secondary consequences?

I burnt down your house but decided daily to weed your yard. Is it commensurate?

Islam and spiritual ignorance!

honesttalk21:
But in your system, Hitler could repent at his deathbed, escape punishment, and enter Paradise while his millions of victims worry about their own sins.That’s not justice. That’s moral bankruptcy.

Yes, Hitler will face his sins the question is has he been forgiven or not.
AND
His victims will also face their own sins forgiven or not.

It is impossible for Hitler to undo any evil he has done to others.

The Power and Mercy of YHWH Forgive and Restore even the worst of sinners TOTALLY!
BUT
Allah's mercy and forgiveness is PARTIAL!

This had been your argument all along!

honesttalk21:
You quote Isaiah 53, but Ezekiel 18:20 is crystal clear that The soul that sins shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father. Even your own scripture rejects substitutionary atonement. No innocent man bears the guilt of the guilty.

Repeating falsehood a million times doesn't change the truth

honesttalk21:
Islam unites mercy with justice. Every soul pays what it owes, and every victim receives their due. Christianity divides them calling the punishment of the innocent love. So I ask you which system truly reflects the justice of God?

Islam shows that Allah is incapable of forgiving Totally and his mercy is only partial!

honesttalk21:
1. If God is just, why punish the innocent Jesus instead of the guilty sinner?

Because God invented the ordinance of sacrifice and ransom for another life.
Thus it please the Lord to lay on Christ the iniquity of us all!

honesttalk21:
2. If all sins are equal, is lying really the same as genocide in God’s eyes?

Read my explanation of the difference between the consequence of SIN and RIGHTEOUSNESS distinct from rewards for Deeds good or bad.

honesttalk21:
3. If Hitler repented on his deathbed, does he get Paradise while his victims get Hell? Is that justice?

People only go to hell for their Sins and not what others did to them.
At least you agreed that a raped person cannot be unraped!

honesttalk21:
4. Ezekiel 18:20 says: “The soul that sins shall die.” Why do you teach the opposite?

Because this is about judgement on earth not in the afterlife.

honesttalk21:
5. If God can “forget sins” (Jer. 31:34), where is justice for the victim?

Untill you can prove that it is possible to unrape a raped victim, your question is faulty.
Justice for the victim is that God himself take the offence/crime personally.

Again:
Rom 12:19:
"Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place to wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, said the Lord."

honesttalk21:
6. Does forgiveness without repayment not erase the oppressed?

Every man will pay for his sins and no one gets rewarded for being offended!

This is what you claim Islam is teaching: that some people will get rewarded for being oppressed!

See how silly it sounds!

honesttalk21:
7. How can sin be “transferred” when the Bible itself says: “No bearer of burdens shall bear the burden of another” (Qur’an 6:164, cf. Ezek. 18:20)?

Sacrifice for sin is EVIDENCE that Ransom has been paid. Otherwise the sinner bears the full weight of the consequence of Sin.

The wages of Sin is ETERNITY in hell

honesttalk21:
8. Why does your system make God less just than human courts, which distinguish between theft and murder?

The fact that Allah cannot forgive TOTALLY and his Mercy is PARTIAL is not my fault.

It is impossible to Totally undo any crime against humanity. My Gods MERCY is Total and His Forgiveness is Total.

honesttalk21:
9. If salvation only requires faith, why does Jesus speak of judgment “according to works” in Matthew 16:27?

1. Salvation is by Faith alone. Faith is proved by the fruit it produces.
2. After Salvation is Reward for Faithfulness and Deeds

honesttalk21:
10. Did Israel suffer exile for the sins of nations (Isaiah 53), or did guilt magically transfer from sinner to savior?

Is Israel a Righteous Nation!?

No sir, Israel did not suffer for the sins of any nation. Israel suffered exiles for their own Sin.

Except you concur that Israel is a RIGHTEOUS nation. Is Israel a Righteous Nation according to Islam?

honesttalk21:
1. Who is the Servant?
Isaiah himself answers this. In chapters 41–49, God repeatedly calls Israel, my servant, (Isaiah 41:8, 44:1, 49:3). So when Isaiah 53 says my servant, the natural reading is Israel, not an individual messiah.

Since you think Israel is the servant I all of the book of Isaiah, then explain
1. Isaiah 49:3 whixh also mentions "My Servant, Israel," but then speaks of the servant being sent to bring Jacob (Israel) back to God, indicating a difference between the servant and the nation.

Is Israel bringing Israel back to God?

2. The servant is portrayed as righteous, faithful, and ultimately justifying many by bearing their iniquities (Isaiah 53).

Is Israel a Righteous Nation?


So, we have two servants in the Book of Isaiah, One is Israel and the Other is the Messiah!

honesttalk21:
2. Substituting Israel fits the text.
Israel’s history matches perfectly. Beaten, exiled, humiliated, accused of being cursed yet surviving. Their suffering was not just from their own sins, but from the hatred and violence of empires. Yet through Israel’s survival, nations came to know the one God. This matches Isaiah 52–54, where Israel is the central theme.

If substitution of Israel fits the text, do you concur that in Israel is the deliverance of Muslim nations?

Then why do Islam hate the Jews this much except that Allah is definitely not YHWH!
You can have it both ways!

So, you affirm that God wasn't punishing Israel but it was because of Muslims nations that Israel is going through hardship!

You affirm that Israel as a nation carries your sorrows as Muslim nations!

You also affirm that God has laid the sins of the Muslim nations on Israel!

These are consequences of your claims.

honesttalk21:
3. Who are the we and our?
Isaiah 52:15 sets the stage. So shall he sprinkle many nations; kings shall shut their mouths at him. The we in Isaiah 53 is the Gentile nations speaking. They admit that they had despised Israel as cursed, but later realize that Israel was suffering unjustly. They (the nations) were guilty, and Israel bore the consequences of their oppression.

The prophet Isaiah was SPEAKING and including himself in the narrative sir. The gentile nations also represent Islamic nations.

Thus you affirm that your hate for Israel is unjustified error from your part , Allah's part and your prophets part.

honesttalk21:
4. What does bearing sins mean?
It does not mean guilt transfer. The Hebrew word often means enduring consequences. Israel bore the nations’ sins in the sense that they suffered exile, persecution, and oppression because of other people’s iniquity. Just like Lamentations 5 says Israel bore the sins of ancestors not that guilt moved, but that consequences fell on them.

It is not up to you to redefine what bearing sin means. This is not the Qur'an or Hadith that need to be filtered through the eyes of your scholars to make any sense.

Israel bears the SIN of Muslim nations you must affirm.

If this is true, why would Jews be used as ransom for Muslims from Hell?

honesttalk21:
5. Why this interpretation matters?
This way, Isaiah 53 fits with Ezekiel 18:20.The soul that sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father. Everyone is accountable for their own sins; guilt is never transferred. That’s why Jews and Muslims reject the Christian leap to substitutionary atonement. The servant suffers because of others, yes, but no one’s guilt magically shifts.

You.mean why re-interpretations matter to you?

Other prophets concur with the plain interpretation of the text

Zech 12:10:
"And I will pour on the house of David, and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look on me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourns for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn."

honesttalk21:
Isaiah 53 doesn’t teach substitution. It teaches vindication: Israel suffered unjustly at the hands of nations, but God will raise them up and prove them innocent. That fits the context, the Hebrew, and the rest of scripture without breaking Ezekiel 18:20.

Unfortunately, this is NOT Islam, thus it is NOT up to you to say what Isaiah 53 doesn't teach.

If what you claim is remotely true, then Islam is in serious Error for hating the Nation of Israel unjustly as one of the heathen nations.

honesttalk21:
Perhaps you consider the Jewish Reading of Isaiah 53 where:

Isaiah 53 is not about an isolated “suffering Messiah” carrying away sins. In classical Jewish commentary, the “Servant” is Israel itself; the nation, described throughout Isaiah as “My servant” (cf. Isaiah 41:8, 44:21, 49:3).

The Servant (Israel) suffers at the hands of the nations. The nations look at Israel’s suffering and wrongly assume it must be because of Israel’s sins, when in fact it is because of their own violence and oppression.

Thus, Israel suffers because of the sins of the nations, but not in place of the nations. No guilt is transferred. Rather, Israel is vindicated by God, showing that their suffering was unjust.

This fits with Ezekiel 18 where

Ezekiel teaches that every individual bears his or her own guilt: “The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father…” (Ezek. 18:20).

There is no contradiction. Isaiah 53 is speaking poetically of collective historical suffering (exile, persecution) borne by the Jewish people due to the hostility of surrounding nations. Ezekiel speaks of personal accountability before God.

Together, they form a coherent principle: nations may experience collective consequences, but ultimate judgment remains personal.

The Christian reading of Isaiah 53 as “substitutionary atonement” is inconsistent with God’s justice as clearly stated in Ezekiel.

Instead, Isaiah 53 is understood as metaphorical, national, or about a prophet suffering unjustly but not literally carrying others’ sins.

1. You agree with Jewish understanding negating Jesus as the Messiah
2. According to Isaiah 53
Since you seem to agree with the Jews understanding, may you please answer these questions

Isaiah 53:4-6
"Surely He Israel has borne our griefs
And carried our sorrows;
Yet we esteemed Him Israel stricken,
Smitten by God, and afflicted.
But He Israel was wounded for our transgressions,
He Israel was bruised for our iniquities;
The chastisement for our peace was upon Him Israel,
And by His Israel's stripes we are healed.
All we like sheep have gone astray;
We have turned, every one, to his own way;
And the Lord has laid on Him Israel the iniquity of us all."


1. Read the above passage with ISRAEL substituted for the Messiah and answer truthfully the questions below.
2. Does this revised passage make sense to you?
3. Who are the We, Us and Our, referenced in this passage ?
4. Are you affirming that your sins were laid upon Israel?

honesttalk21:
You keep sneering about “houris being taken away and given to polytheists in Hell,” as if Islamic justice is some crude barter system. Let’s clear that up right now: houris have nothing to do with justice. They are rewards of Paradise, not tokens to be traded or deducted. No believer ever loses them, and they’re certainly not “handed out” to people who chose Hell for themselves. That whole mockery collapses under its own absurdity.

Now, to your real questions:

1. What if the wronged person is a polytheist in Hell, and the oppressor is a Muslim who repented?

Islam separates between the rights owed to God and the rights owed to people. Repentance wipes out the sin between a person and Allah, but it doesn’t erase the harm done to another human being. That debt remains. On the Day of Judgment, Allah Himself will compensate the wronged non-Muslim in a way only He can, so that no one can say they were wronged twice. The Prophet pbuh said: “Do not wrong one another, for wrongs will be repaid on the Day of Resurrection” (Muslim). Allah is Al-‘Adl The Just. No one escapes.

2. What if both oppressor and victim are polytheists in Hell?
The same principle applies. Their punishments are not identical. The victim’s burden is eased, the oppressor’s is made heavier. That is how divine justice work, every wrong shifts the balance. As the Qur’an says: “We will set up the scales of justice on the Day of Resurrection, and no soul will be wronged in the least” (21:47).

And your mockery: “Can a man unrape his victim?” Of course not. But here’s the difference. In your theology, the rapist can “accept Jesus” on his deathbed and escape all punishment, while the victim gets nothing. In Islam, that can’t happen. The crime is never erased at the expense of the victim. Justice reaches them either by direct compensation from Allah or by transferring from the oppressor’s own record. The victim is not forgotten.

So, you admit that a rapist cannot unrape his victim yet you prescribe a contradiction of rewards given for being wronged. A wronged person gets rewarded for being victimised!
This is the summary of Islamic judgement you have presented here.


All you have clearly displayed here is that Allah CANNOT forgive totally or he doesn't know the meaning of Mercy and Forgiveness


Contrast with the True God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob
Jer 31:34:
"And they shall teach no more every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, said the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more."

Isaiah 43:25
"I, even I, am he who blots out your transgressions... and remembers your sins no more."

Isaiah 1:18
"Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow."

Hebrews 10:17
"Their sins and lawless acts I will remember no more."

Jeremiah 31:34
"For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more."

honesttalk21:
Then you claim “all sins are equal.” But your own Bible undercuts you.

In John 19:11 Jesus says or is alleged to say “The one who handed me over to you is guilty of a greater sin.”

Matthew 11:24 – “It will be more tolerable for Sodom on the day of judgment than for you.”


So which is it? Equal, or greater/lesser? Even Paul speaks of “wages of sin” differently depending on context. The truth is obvious: not all sins weigh the same. Islam is consistent on this. Some sins are heavier, but all are judged fairly, and mercy is available.

The above showing that you don't read at all things I wrote just a tad ago.

Please go back and read my previous post where I said:
You are ignorant of the fact that there is a difference between SIN/RIGHTEOUSNESS and REWARD?
1. SIN takes you to Hell
2. RIGHTEOUSNESS takes you to Paradise

Those in Paradise do not receive the same REWARD, they are Rewarded according to their FAITHFULNESS in their Use of RESOURCES for God's People.

Those in Hell do not receive the same REWARD, they are Rewarded according to their FAITHLESSNESS in their Use of RESOURCES for God's People.

honesttalk21:
And Isaiah 53? You read it as God dumping guilt onto the innocent. But that directly contradicts the Torah and the Prophets.
Ezekiel 18:20: “The soul that sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son.”
If that principle is from God Himself, then your doctrine of substitution collapses. God doesn’t contradict His own justice.

Even though you wouldn't listen,
Ezekiel wasn't even referring to the judgment in Paradise or Hell, it was referring to God punishing the children for the sins of their fathers as God used to in the past

Here are key scriptures where God speaks about punishing the children for the sins of their fathers:

Exodus 20:5 God says He is a jealous God who "visits the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me."

Exodus 34:7 - God is described as forgiving iniquity but also not leaving the guilty unpunished, "visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children and the children’s children to the third and fourth generation."

BUT
Deuteronomy 24:16 - This verse clarifies personal responsibility: "Fathers shall not be put to death for their children, nor children for their fathers; each is to die for his own sin." It emphasizes that individuals are accountable for their own sins, not punished simply because of their ancestors' sins

And your favourite verse
Ezekiel 18:20 - "The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son." This strongly affirms individual accountability for sin and refutes the idea of automatic punishment of children for their parents' sins

Secondly,
Even if you want to insist these verses are about judgement in Hell, Jesus is not anyone's SON!
Thus, all your repetitions are Vail noise.

1. God is JUST, thus He punishes SIN
2. The Punishment for Sin is ETERNITY in Hell
3. God's LOVE for man without VIOLATING his Being JUST applied MERCY through a RANSOM.
4. JESUS is that Ransom

But for you Muslims, Christians and Jews are your own ransom

honesttalk21:
Finally, your taunt; “Does Allah forgive partially or fully?” The answer is fully. But full forgiveness doesn’t mean trampling victims. Forgiveness clears a sinner’s account with God, but debts to other humans remain. Those debts are settled through justice either by transferring deeds or by Allah Himself compensating the wronged. That isn’t partial forgiveness, it’s perfect balance; mercy without injustice.

Hear yourself,
Allah forgives TOTALLY BUT you are still punished!
But it is still total forgiveness!

No, Allah's forgiveness is PARTIAL!

You are totally forgiven BUT you must chop some cane! And you defend this illogicality!?

honesttalk21:
So no, Islam does not “break down.” What actually breaks down is your system where a murderer can die with a whispered confession, walk straight into Heaven, and leave his victims eternally uncompensated. That isn’t mercy. That’s an insult to justice.

Islam breaks down ALWAYS with reasoning.
You just said that it is impossible to unrape a victim, what justice are you speaking about?

That is why, every offence against man is primarily an SIN against God. Every man deals with his own sin against his neighbour and crime against you is handled by God.

The logic wouldn't make sense to you.
God is saying that every crime you do against your fellow human is done to Him and God will extract maximum punishment for that BUT you, bother yourself with what you do against others.

Unlike Islam that tries to distribute Houri for people of hell (sorry it's because I don't know other rewards to be given to Muslims other than boreholes in numbers). And you never gave me any specifics!

honesttalk21:
You forget mockingly asking “Will Allah reduce your houris and give them to the wronged polytheist in Hell?” As if Islamic justice is some crude barter system where women are swapped like currency. Let’s get this straight; houris have nothing to do with justice or compensation. They are a reward of Paradise, symbols of eternal joy for those whom Allah admits into His mercy. They are never “deducted,” never “handed over,” and certainly not gifted to people who already chose Hell through their own disbelief. That caricature says more about your mockery than it does about Islam.

If the Houri are so special that they cannot be given to the wronged person (even though this is not true) what will be given to the wronged person out of his blessings. Let us assume that the wronged person is a polytheist?

honesttalk21:
The Prophet pbuh explained justice very clearly: “On the Day of Judgment, the wronged will be compensated from the good deeds of the oppressor. If those good deeds run out, the victim’s sins are cast upon him” (Bukhar 2449). That’s not barter. That’s moral accountability. You wronged someone? You pay with your own deeds, with your own record. The victim gains, you lose. Justice served.

You are just repeating yourself.
1. Now the wronged person is a polytheist and in hell, the offender is a repentant Muslim, what will be given to the Polytheist in Hello from the Muslim.
2. The wronged person is a Polytheist and in hell and the offender is also a polytheist in hell, what will be given to the offended person?

When Islam is questioned, it breaks down irrevocably!

honesttalk21:
Now compare that to what you yourself admitted: Hitler could repent on his deathbed, “accept Jesus,” and walk into Paradise, while his millions of victims “worry about their own sins.” In your theology, the victims receive nothing from the oppressor. Their blood, their pain, their cries all ignored. And the criminal? He strolls into eternal bliss because he outsourced his punishment onto Jesus. Tell me: where in that is justice?

All Sins are against God!
Thus, you cause pain to your neighbour, God says it is Him you have caused pain.

I ask you, is it possible for any man to fully restore the damage he caused to another?
As an example,
Can a man unrape his victim?

Islam is naive in so many spiritual aspects.

honesttalk21:
You also claim “all sins are equal.” But your own Bible disagrees. Jesus himself says in John 19:11: “The one who handed me over to you is guilty of a greater sin.” In Matthew 11:23-24, he warns that Sodom will be judged more lightly than Capernaum. Even Paul, in Romans 6:23, speaks of “wages of sin” in different contexts. If all sin is equal, why does your own scripture rank them? Clearly, a lie is not the same as genocide. Even you don’t believe your own analogy.

Khai!
You are ignorant of the fact that there is a difference between SIN/RIGHTEOUSNESS and REWARD?
1. SIN takes you to Hell
2. RIGHTEOUSNESS takes you to Paradise

Those in Paradise do not receive the same REWARD, they are Rewarded according to their FAITHFULNESS in their Use of RESOURCES for God's People.

Those in Hell do not receive the same REWARD, they are Rewarded according to their FAITHLESSNESS in their Use of RESOURCES for God's People.


This is what Jesus was speaking about sir.

Thus, there is no BIG sin nor SMALL sin because SIN irrespective of its SIZE takes you to Hell Fire .

How come you are so ignorant of this simple spiritual fact.

Will Muslims be rewarded equally in Paradise?

honesttalk21:
And then there’s Ezekiel 18:20 the verse you keep dodging: “The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.” How does atonement survive that? If Jesus was innocent, how does he bear the guilt of murderers and thieves? If God is just, why does He shift blame from the criminal to someone else entirely? Your doctrine says God’s mercy required killing His own Son. Scripture says the opposite: each man bears his own burden.

Bear your own burden for eternity in Hell please!
It is your choice,

This is what God's solution is

Isaiah 53:4-6
"Surely He has borne our griefs
And carried our sorrows;
Yet we esteemed Him stricken,
Smitten by God, and afflicted.
But He was wounded for our transgressions,
He was bruised for our iniquities;
The chastisement for our peace was upon Him,
And by His stripes we are healed.
All we like sheep have gone astray;
We have turned, every one, to his own way;
And the Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all."

SMH!!

honesttalk21:
The Qur’an affirms the exact same truth: “No bearer of burdens will bear the burden of another” (6:164). Every soul earns what it earns, every soul pays for what it did. But unlike your system, Islam doesn’t lock the gates of mercy. Repent sincerely, make amends, seek forgiveness and God may forgive you directly. No human sacrifice required. No injustice against the innocent.

Then Reject the Solution of God and choose to bear your own burden for eternity in Hell

It is simple!

John 3:16-18:
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believes on him is not condemned: but he that believes not is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."

This is why the Gospel is Good News, that you will not carry the burden of your sin for eternity in Hell because God has carried it for you and thus you can go free

honesttalk21:
So no Allah does not “reduce your houris.” That’s childish mockery, not theology. In Islam, justice is exact, proportional, and personal. Paradise is reward. Hell is punishment. Victims’ rights are never erased.

So tell me again, how the crime of raping and violating a woman can be UNDONE?

Also, tell me specifically what a Polytheist raped woman will get in hell from her repentant Muslim rapist?

Also, what if the rapist was also a Polytheist, what reward will be extracted from him and given to the violated woman.

Islam always breaks down with small scrutiny!

honesttalk21:
So I’ll ask you plainly which vision of God is greater and better?
A God who holds every soul accountable, yet forgives directly out of mercy?
Or a God who declares all sins the same, condemns all to eternal Hell, and then pardons the guilty only by punishing the innocent?

Refer to my answers in previous posts.

honesttalk21:
Mercy and accountability are not contradictions; they are complements. Accountability preserves justice, while mercy prevents justice from becoming cruelty. Together they reflect a God who is both just and compassionate.

Your claim:
Allah forgives but still punishes you as a Muslim for your sin.

This had been your argument all along.


So, In ask , When Allah claims to forgive,
Does Allah forgive partially or fully?


You won't answer the questions as usual!

honesttalk21:
Your example collapses under its own weight. You imagine a Muslim who rapes a polytheist woman, repents, and then simply walks into Paradise untouched? But that is not Islam. The Qur’an is explicit: “Whoever does wrong will be recompensed for it, and they will not find besides Allah a protector or helper” (4:123). The Prophet pbuh taught that on the Day of Judgment every victim will be repaid in full; if the oppressor has good deeds, they are given to the victim; if his good deeds run out, the victim’s sins are cast upon him until justice is done (Muslim 2581).

That applies whether the victim is Muslim or non-Muslim. So no, nothing is withdrawn from “houri” and handed to her; rather, her due is taken from the very deeds and record of the oppressor. That is real, proportionate justice. Accountability tied directly to the crime.

So, even the repentant Muslim rapist will go to hell if I take you at your words!?

So, what then is the forgiveness by mercy of Allah ton this Muslim repentant rapist?


Please listen to yourself the islamic justice
nothing is withdrawn from “houri” and handed to her; rather, her due is taken from the very deeds and record of the oppressor

It's just a record that is removed and handed over to the Polytheist woman in hell!?
Hell must be truely comfortable for a positive RECORD to make sense of what somebody did against us and not the positives we did for others.
SMH!

honesttalk21:
Now contrast this with your system. You say sin is all the same (rape, theft, murder, lying) equal in God’s eyes, all deserving of eternal Hell. That is not justice; that is absurdity.

Even human courts know the difference between stealing bread and killing a child. Yet your view makes God less just than human judges. Worse still, you say an innocent man takes the punishment instead of the criminal, in direct violation of the Bible itself: “The soul that sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son; the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself” (Ezekiel 18:20).

By your logic, Hitler could “accept Jesus” on his deathbed and go free while his victims stay in Hell. Where is the justice in that?

The Power of God washes away the greatest of sin and injustice: It doesn't take God more power to cleanse a sinner from violent dreadful sins than the less inconsequential ones.
Moreover, in Christianity, ALL sins are primarily against GOD and not the victim of the crime because the victim is the image of God.
You keep throwing about Ezekiel 18:20 as if you comprehend it's meaning: Is Jesus the son of any man?

Isaiah 53:4-6
"Surely He has borne our griefs
And carried our sorrows;
Yet we esteemed Him stricken,
Smitten by God, and afflicted.
But He was wounded for our transgressions,
He was bruised for our iniquities;
The chastisement for our peace was upon Him,
And by His stripes we are healed.
All we like sheep have gone astray;
We have turned, every one, to his own way;
And the Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all."
SMH!!

Yes, Hitler can repent at his death bed and God will forgive him. His victims should worry about their own sin against God and ask for mercy too.

honesttalk21:
Islam distinguishes between sins not out of “ignorance” but out of wisdom: a lie is not equal to genocide, and God’s justice reflects that. And yes, Islam teaches mercy but mercy after accountability, not mercy that cancels justice. The Qur’an makes it clear: “No bearer of burdens will bear the burden of another” (6:164). Each soul answers for itself. That is true mercy and true justice, not the chaos of your system where guilt is transferable and infinite punishment is unleashed for finite sins.

Islam doesn't understand the concept of SIN period!
Which one of these two will make your drinking cup unusable: Excrement in small quantities and excrement in large quantities inside it!

Sin it that which pollutes island make us unfit for God.

honesttalk21:
So the real question is this: which is more merciful; a God who holds oppressors accountable to their victims and offers forgiveness with repentance, or a God who declares all sins equal, condemns all to eternal Hell, and then pardons the guilty by punishing the innocent?

I have answered this question almost thrice now
1. You have been making this claim without evidence
Show me a hadith or Quran that says that on the day of judgment Allah will hold Repentant Muslim who have been forgiven (by the Blackstone) accountable for their crime against humanity!

I am waiting.

You don't know the meaning of Mercy sir.
Mercy and accountability doesn't go together.

Mercy is not giving me the judgment I deserve.
Mercy is freeing a guilty person from the consequences of his misdeeds

Except, your understanding is that Allah forgives Partially



The Greater God is One who simultaneously
1. Executes JUSTICE in FULL because a sinner cannot go unpunished AND
2. Because of His LOVE for the Guilty, shows Mercy by FREEING him TOTALLY from the Consequence of his Misdeeds against man and God

Can Allah fully execute JUSTICE while fully showing Mercy to the sinner

honesttalk21:
You keep quoting hadith on mutʿah as though Islam stands or falls on scattered narrations. It doesn’t. The Qur’an is the foundation, and it describes marriage in weighty, sacred terms: “And how could you take it back while you have gone in unto each other and they have taken from you a solemn covenant” (4:21). That’s the language of permanence and responsibility, not a temporary contract you walk away from. Another verse puts it beautifully: “And among His signs is that He created for you spouses from among yourselves that you may find tranquility in them, and He placed between you affection and mercy” (30:21). Marriage, then, is about stability, love, mercy. Mutʿah doesn’t fit that vision, which is exactly why the Prophet pbuh put an end to it and why Imam Ali, even when he had full authority, never brought it back. If it were divine law forever, his silence would be inexplicable.

Then there’s the other favorite line of attack: “those your right hands possess.” Critics twist it into proof that Islam promoted prostitution. But that’s distortion. The phrase referred to captives of war a grim but universal reality in antiquity. The Qur’an didn’t invent it; it restrained it. Look at how it regulates: “Whoever among you cannot afford to marry free believing women, then he may marry from those whom your right hands possess… marry them with the permission of their people and give them their due compensation” (4:25). Or again: “Do not compel your slave-girls into prostitution if they desire chastity” (24:33). Freeing slaves is praised outright as righteousness: “The freeing of a slave” (90:13). Far from endorsing exploitation, the Qur’an sets a trajectory away from it—toward emancipation and dignity.

Now compare that with the Bible. Deuteronomy 21:10–14 tells Israelite soldiers they may take captive women as wives after war, and if they tire of them, just let them go. Numbers 31:18 goes further: “Keep alive for yourselves all the young girls who have not known man.” Leviticus 25:44–46 gives open license: you may own slaves as property, even pass them down to your children. No restriction, no trajectory of abolition. Christians brush this aside as “context,” yet turn around and condemn the Qur’an, which actually imposed restrictions and pointed toward reform. That is a glaring double standard.

And here’s the bigger irony: Christians accuse Islam of moral looseness, while their central doctrine is looser than anything in the Qur’an. Atonement teaches that the guilty sinner escapes his due punishment because Jesus bears it instead. But Ezekiel 18:20 flatly contradicts this: “The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father the guilt of the son; the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.” That’s justice in its pure form. The Qur’an echoes the same principle: “No bearer of burdens will bear the burden of another” (6:164). In Islam, mercy exists, yes but never at the expense of accountability. Each person stands for their own deeds.

So which vision really lines up with reason and justice? A Qur’an that treats marriage as covenant, restrains sexual exploitation, and keeps responsibility personal? Or a theology that excuses slavery without reform and shifts guilt onto the innocent? If you condemn Islam here, honesty demands you condemn the Bible even more.

Here again you have your response part TWO

honesttalk21:
You keep quoting hadith on mutʿah as though Islam stands or falls on scattered narrations. It doesn’t. The Qur’an is the foundation, and it describes marriage in weighty, sacred terms: “And how could you take it back while you have gone in unto each other and they have taken from you a solemn covenant” (4:21). That’s the language of permanence and responsibility, not a temporary contract you walk away from. Another verse puts it beautifully: “And among His signs is that He created for you spouses from among yourselves that you may find tranquility in them, and He placed between you affection and mercy” (30:21). Marriage, then, is about stability, love, mercy. Mutʿah doesn’t fit that vision, which is exactly why the Prophet pbuh put an end to it and why Imam Ali, even when he had full authority, never brought it back. If it were divine law forever, his silence would be inexplicable.

Then there’s the other favorite line of attack: “those your right hands possess.” Critics twist it into proof that Islam promoted prostitution. But that’s distortion. The phrase referred to captives of war a grim but universal reality in antiquity. The Qur’an didn’t invent it; it restrained it. Look at how it regulates: “Whoever among you cannot afford to marry free believing women, then he may marry from those whom your right hands possess… marry them with the permission of their people and give them their due compensation” (4:25). Or again: “Do not compel your slave-girls into prostitution if they desire chastity” (24:33). Freeing slaves is praised outright as righteousness: “The freeing of a slave” (90:13). Far from endorsing exploitation, the Qur’an sets a trajectory away from it—toward emancipation and dignity.

Now compare that with the Bible. Deuteronomy 21:10–14 tells Israelite soldiers they may take captive women as wives after war, and if they tire of them, just let them go. Numbers 31:18 goes further: “Keep alive for yourselves all the young girls who have not known man.” Leviticus 25:44–46 gives open license: you may own slaves as property, even pass them down to your children. No restriction, no trajectory of abolition. Christians brush this aside as “context,” yet turn around and condemn the Qur’an, which actually imposed restrictions and pointed toward reform. That is a glaring double standard.

And here’s the bigger irony: Christians accuse Islam of moral looseness, while their central doctrine is looser than anything in the Qur’an. Atonement teaches that the guilty sinner escapes his due punishment because Jesus bears it instead. But Ezekiel 18:20 flatly contradicts this: “The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father the guilt of the son; the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.” That’s justice in its pure form. The Qur’an echoes the same principle: “No bearer of burdens will bear the burden of another” (6:164). In Islam, mercy exists, yes but never at the expense of accountability. Each person stands for their own deeds.

So which vision really lines up with reason and justice? A Qur’an that treats marriage as covenant, restrains sexual exploitation, and keeps responsibility personal? Or a theology that excuses slavery without reform and shifts guilt onto the innocent? If you condemn Islam here, honesty demands you condemn the Bible even more.

Here again you have your response

honesttalk21:
Why should Allah pay for what he has been merciful about? Does this make sense?

You say Islam just lets sin slide? No, man. The Qur’an spells it out: Whoever does evil will be paid back for it (4:123). We’ll set up the scales of justice so no soul is wronged, not even by a mustard seed (21:47). Nothing slips. Nothing!

In Islam, if you wrong somebody, you’re not walking away. On Judgment Day your good deeds get ripped out of your book and handed to your victim. And when you’ve got nothing left? Their sins land on you, and you’re the one burning in Hell. That’s payback. That’s real accountability.

And I have asked you to put this claim to test.
A repentant Muslim man raped a woman who is a Polytheist. We know that the polytheist should be in Hell.
Tell me, how many houri will be withdrawn from this Muslim man and given to the hell bound woman?
SMH!

honesttalk21:
Now your system? It’s a free pass. A man can kill, rape, oppress then just say “I accept Jesus” and he’s off the hook. Tell me, where’s the justice for the victim in that? Their cries just vanish into the air? That’s not justice, that’s a scam.

Do you even know what is called Mercy?
Mercy is not getting what you deserve as judgement of guilt!

You just called Gods mercy a scam!

The True God YHWH served Justice while executing Mercy but you call it a scam!?

honesttalk21:
You say stealing an apple, telling a lie,tiny, finite sins deserve infinite Hellfire. Forever. Same sentence as murder. Unless, of course, some innocent guy gets executed in your place. And you call that justice?
Your own book says otherwise. The soul that sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father (Ezek. 18:20). Straight up. But your theology spits on that verse.

Islam doesn’t play that game. In Islam, every soul carries its own load. Your punishment matches your crime. You want mercy? Repent, make it right, and God may forgive you. But you don’t get to dump your mess on someone else.

The problem is that Islam doesn't understand the concept of Sin. Sin is Filth and Blemish like excrement.

To you small excrement is small offence while big excrement is big offence. How ignorant can a religious person be. Sin make you totally objectionable to God.

Only in Islam do we have big sin and small sin because of gross ignorance!

honesttalk21:
So let’s stop pretending. Which system is actually just? The one that makes every sinner answer for his own dirt or the one that lets the guilty walk while the innocent bleeds?

Allah says he forgives you by his mercy BUT he punishes you for your offence by removing out of your blessings to give the offended person.

Is this the Islamic Definition of Mercy?

Analog95:
Hello guys, I humbly need you all view on this. All my life I have always wanted to be a lecturer, so early this year (January, 2025), I finally got awarded PhD in Applied Mathematics. Though I had my first degree in Mechanical Engineering, masters in Applied Mathematics with specialization in fluid dynamics and PhD in Applied Mathematics with specialization in fluid dynamics as well. During my study, I run a tutorial centre and making cool money from teaching mechanical engineering and mathematics students. So after obtaining my PhD I started sending out my CV to people I know in institutions, though most are of the opinion that I shouldn't have switched from mechanical engineering to mathematics that it will give me problem.

Around January 2025, immediately after my PhD oral examination, my supervisor linked me up with the rector of a polytechnic to go submit my CV to him, which I did, and according to the rector, he told me that it is not matter of CV for now, because most people that he employed as assistant lecturers, they really don't have much to pay them and the governor of the state has promised that he will do recruitment for the polytechnic around March because of accreditation processes, so during that recruitment, I can be employed. Fast forward to March, the accreditation went on and I wasn't informed if the recruitment was later done (you know all this underground stuffs), so I later got my mind off the institution and look at for another university in other states which I was promised also that once there is directives to start recruitment, I will be employed.

On the 3rd of july, 2025, I got a call from someone from the polytechnic, telling me to come to the personnel department as soon as possible with my credentials, when I got there, he collected photocopies of my credentials and on sighting the mechanical engineering as first degree, he said which department do I want and I said mathematics and he said why not mechanical engineering where I had my foundation, so I said I preferred mathematics because since I switched to mathematics, I have published 11 academic journal with 7 of them Scopus rated in Q1, and I have also attended 7 seminars with certificate to back them up, and I have also been a member of the Nigerian mathematical society (NMS), so he said they will get back to me.

Since then I haven't heard anything. After a month, I made a call to the person that I submitted my credentials to at the personnel department, that I haven't heard from them and he said "sebi we are the one that called you ourself, the process is ongoing and once we are ready, we will definitely call you back". But I haven't heard from them still. It is almost two months now since I submitted the credentials and I am already losing faith.

I am just confused, could my changing from engineering to science be hindering me from getting a lecturing position? If it is, does it make sense to go back and obtain another master and PhD in mechanical engineering and just forget about the mathematics? Or just forget about lecturing and focus on my tutorials, meanwhile I make more than 500k monthly from the tutorial because it is in school area, but I don't want to be a tutor forever, not even with a PhD.

Grow your business dear.

How much do you think a Professor earns in the University?

obembet:
When it comes to prayer, what matters most is the sincerity of your heart, not the language you use. God understands every language, even the unspoken groanings of the heart (Romans 8:26).

Praying in local dialect

Feels more personal and natural if it’s your first language. Helps you express deep emotions and cultural expressions that may not translate well into English. Many people connect more spiritually when praying in the language they think and feel in.

Praying in English

Useful when you’re in a mixed group where people may not understand your dialect. Helps in teaching, leading, or uniting people in prayer. Can make your prayer accessible to more listeners.

So my smart Nairalanders, which one is the best
Source: obembe Tosin

I pray only in Arabic because this is the language God understand!

honesttalk21:
You keep tossing around hadith about mutʿah as if Islam is all about a few random narrations. But let’s be real—Islam isn’t built on scattered reports. The Qur’an is the ultimate authority, and it clearly defines marriage as a “firm covenant” (4:21), not some throwaway contract. It only permits intimacy with “wives or those your right hands possess” (23:5–6), and mutʿah doesn’t fit that description. That’s why the Prophet pbuh prohibited it, and even Imam ʿAli, the fourth caliph, didn’t bring it back during his rule. So, ask yourself: if mutʿah were truly God’s eternal law, why did the person most trusted by Shia Islam leave it in the past?

Allah prescribed Mutah for you Muslims, did Allah Abrogate the Mutah anywhere in the Qur'an?

Mohammed Abrogated Mutah isn't it and it is in your Hadith. So, which one do you Muslims follow
1. Is it the Qur'an or
2. The Hadith?

honesttalk21:
Now, about “those your right hands possess”—that’s another tired misinterpretation. The Qur’an didn’t create slavery or captives; it was a reality for the whole world, including the Israelites in your Bible (check out Numbers 31:18). The key difference? The Qur’an put restrictions in place. Captives could only be taken into proper marriage (4:24–25), and forcing them into prostitution was strictly forbidden (24:33). Freeing them was seen as an act of faith and righteousness (90:13). That’s not about sexual looseness; it’s about reform and dignity.

Allah says in The Qur'an:
"Force not your slave girls into Prostitution "
BUT if you do what happens?

honesttalk21:
But here’s the real hypocrisy: the Bible allows slavery and sex with captives without those restrictions. Where was the divine “firm covenant” in that? Yet Christians brush it off as “context” while criticizing the Qur’an, which actually tightened the rules. That’s not just a double standard; it’s plain intellectual dishonesty.

Evidence for this claim please: where the Bible allows slavery and sex with captives without restrictions!

honesttalk21:
And here’s the uncomfortable truth: Christianity’s doctrine of atonement undermines justice. The guilty walk free while the innocent pays the price. What kind of justice system lets a rapist go unpunished while an innocent person suffers? If that happened in a real court, you’d call it corruption. Islam rejects that chaos. “No bearer of burdens will bear the burden of another” (6:164). Every soul is accountable for its own actions. Mercy exists, but not at the expense of justice.

Sorry!
In Atonement, the Guilty is Judged but his punishment is carried for him by God Himself because the Guilty person accepted God's help for paying for his sins.

In Atonement, those who reject God's help (like you) pay for their own sin for Eternity in Hell

Tell me what is not fair here. You will pay for your sin in Hell.

All Sins are primarily against God and not man.
Yes,
Mercy exists, but not at the expense of justice. But justice require that the Sinner must go to Hell. The difference between us is that I allow God to pay off my debt of Sin BUT you will bear your own burden of sin.

honesttalk21:
So let’s be clear. Which is more just? A God who holds every sinner accountable? or a God who allows sin to be transferred from the criminal to the innocent? Which one really upholds justice?

Be honest! if a human judge acted like your doctrine describes, you’d call him unjust. But when it’s God, you call it “love”? That’s not love that’s moral collapse.

The God who holds every one accountable and punished them accordingly is the Just God.

-God therefore has judged TenQ as Guilty of Sin
God Judged TenQ with the Punishment of Eternity in Hell
-However, God GAVE His Free Gift of Salvation from this Punishment because of His Love that the Messiah takes up my Punishment in Hell for Me.

-Therefore, I have been held accountable, sentenced and judged BUT by God's Love and Mercy, I received REDEMPTION because the Messiah Paid my Fine.



Let's Look at YOU:
-Honesttalk21 is Guilty of Sin
-Honesttalk21 is judged with a punishment of Eternity in Hell Fire
-Allah claims to waive off Honesttalk21's sin because he recited La illah illa lah 3 times, he is a Muslim and he prays five times a day.

According to your claims:
1. Has Allah held you honesttalk21 as a sinner accountable for your sin?
2. Would it be immoral for Allah to pay for your sins by himself so that you can go free ?

Has Allah really upheld justice here?

helinues:
Things are cheap in Nigeria, not just the oil. I read online yesterday that barbing in Ghana now is around 20GHC. Convert that amount to naira

What is the minimum wage in Ghana?

honesttalk21:
It's unproductive having discussions since you are adamant about your views no matter how incorrect.

Even your Bible tells you nothing is like God yet you arrogantly insist on the created being like the creator.

Isaiah 40:18
To whom then will you liken God, or what likeness compare with him?

Exodus 15:11
Who is like you, O Lord, among the gods? Who is like you, majestic in holiness, awesome in glorious deeds, doing wonders?

Isaiah 46:9
...for I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me

This major contradiction in the new testament not with the Jews is quite enormous.

Furthermore in traditional Jewish and Islamic understanding, atonement is through sincere repentance without a need for sacrifice.

Ezekiel 18:21-22
But if a wicked person turns away from all his sins... he shall surely live; he shall not die.

Hosea 6:6
For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings.

Alas a lot of unjustifiable contradiction is brought in with you and the new testament view of Jesus yet God is unchanging?

Funny how you choose to include God in a mathematical principle of sets when he is above this and created all.

God is not part of creation, not a subset of it, not the whole of it, nor merely outside it. God is ontologically distinct, the necessary and self-existent ground of all contingent being.

No bother and no further discussion required for indeed you worship what you will the way you want to. You should be ashamed of holding a misunderstood upholding of the hadith above the Qur'an itself. You are free to continue as a means to justify your misunderstanding and perhaps strengthen your resolve in Faith.

Muslims are full of contradictions.

They claim superiority of the Qur'an over the hadith yet they Reject Mutah from the Qur'an because a hadith says Mohammed cancelled it.

Who fooleth thou you?

honesttalk21:
It's unproductive having discussions since you are adamant about your views no matter how incorrect.

Even your Bible tells you nothing is like God yet you arrogantly insist on the created being like the creator.

Isaiah 40:18
To whom then will you liken God, or what likeness compare with him?

Exodus 15:11
Who is like you, O Lord, among the gods? Who is like you, majestic in holiness, awesome in glorious deeds, doing wonders?

Isaiah 46:9
...for I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me

This major contradiction in the new testament not with the Jews is quite enormous.

Furthermore in traditional Jewish and Islamic understanding, atonement is through sincere repentance without a need for sacrifice.

Ezekiel 18:21-22
But if a wicked person turns away from all his sins... he shall surely live; he shall not die.

Hosea 6:6
For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings.

Alas a lot of unjustifiable contradiction is brought in with you and the new testament view of Jesus yet God is unchanging?

Funny how you choose to include God in a mathematical principle of sets when he is above this and created all.

God is not part of creation, not a subset of it, not the whole of it, nor merely outside it. God is ontologically distinct, the necessary and self-existent ground of all contingent being.

No bother and no further discussion required for indeed you worship what you will the way you want to. You should be ashamed of holding a misunderstood upholding of the hadith above the Qur'an itself. You are free to continue as a means to justify your misunderstanding and perhaps strengthen your resolve in Faith.

As usual

Kaliningrad:
Were you not one of the people cheering on the Ukranians to "defeat" Russia last year?

Well this is what "defeating" Russia looks like.

Now Zelensky & his NATO owners are running around looking for a ceasefire.

The Ukrainians must have an army with population in the Billions of this is True reflection of Battle ground casualties or the Russian Generals are grossly INCOMPETENT!

honesttalk21:
I doubt you have any clear understanding of what is real and true, what you feel or prefer to be true.

In Islam, Allah stands apart from creation and isn't limited like Iblis. Drawing a comparison between the Creator and a creature is simply not accurate. Allah exists beyond space, time, and form. He isn't just above the heavens as if He were confined to a specific location; rather, He is the One who brought everything into existence. Unlike Iblis, who is trapped within the universe, Allah sustains it and exists beyond it. When it comes to the question of whether Allah can eat, that notion suggests a kind of weakness and need, which is not applicable to God. Eating and relying on food indicate being created, not divine. A true Almighty God wouldn’t contradict Himself by exhibiting weakness.

You are repeating narratives but I am giving you facts of similarities between Allah and Iblis. All you needed to do is to falsify them.

Again:
So many things are like Allah eg Iblis
1. Allah is a subset of the Universe just as Iblis is a subset of the universe.
Is Allah not just above the seven heavens which is above the seven earth's?
2. Allah is one just like Iblis Iblis is one
How many Iblis do you know in the Universe?
3. Allah cannot do many things just like Iblis.
Can Allah enter into his creation and remain almighty?

The only logical way that Allah is not a subset of the universe is if he is the Universal SET i.e. the universe is within him and not that he is above the universe.

In the course of reinventing Allah, your scholars unknowingly boxed him into a corner.

honesttalk21:
The hadith of Abu Dharr doesn’t imply that theft and adultery are overlooked. Islam distinguishes between sins against God and those against people. Allah may forgive His own rights through repentance, but offenses against others must be addressed. The Prophet taught that on Judgment Day, victims will receive the good deeds of their oppressors, and if those deeds run out, the oppressor will take on the victims’ sins before facing Hell. This means that no criminal simply escapes justice by uttering a phrase; real justice is upheld among people, and Allah ensures that no wrongdoing goes unpunished.

See how you distinguished between sin against God and Sin against people!? This is wrong for everyone sin against man is sin against God BECAUSE man was created in the image of God.

Here is Allah copying Jesus
1. Hadith 18, 40 Hadith Qudsi
On the authority of Abu Hurayrah
2. Mishkat al-Masabih 1528
On the authority of Abu Huraira
3. Sahih Muslim 2569

A victim is a polytheist, what recompense would he receive from the good deeds of his oppressor if the oppressor is a Muslim that means anything?
Example:
Will Allah reduce the numbers of your Houri and give it to the wronged polytheist in hell?

Islam always breaks down with reasoning!

honesttalk21:
In contrast, Christianity presents the innocent Jesus as bearing the sins of the guilty, which the Bible itself prohibits in Ezekiel 18:20. If Jesus was merely a man, he couldn’t carry the sins of others. If he was God, then the idea becomes impossible; how could God experience hunger, weakness, or death? The Bible refers to Jesus as a man attested by God (Acts 2:22), indicating he was human and reliant on God, not divine. Islam provides a clearer perspective. Jesus was a prophet and Messiah, revered by Allah, but never God Himself.

You are just repeating yourself misrepresenting Ezek 18: based on the limitations of Allah.
Only the True God can be Somewhere and Everywhere at the same Time without contradicting His Almightiness

*Can Allah be Unlimited and Limited at the same Time without contradicting His Almightiness
*Can Allah be Spirit and Physical at the same Time without contradicting His Almightiness
*Can Allah be ANYTHING without contradicting His Almightiness

If Allah cannot, it is an error to impose your understanding of the limitations of Allah on YHWH.

honesttalk21:
Islamic theology maintains a balance of justice and mercy. While some criminals may evade punishment in this life, the Qur’an teaches that every wrongdoer will ultimately confront Allah in the Hereafter, where no injustice is ignored. Victims receive direct compensation, and oppressors face the repercussions of their actions.

I have asked you again and again
A victim is a polytheist and should be in hell, what recompense would he receive from the good deeds of his oppressor if the oppressor is a repentant Muslim that means anything?
Example:
Will Allah reduce the numbers of your Houri and give it to the wronged polytheist in hell?

honesttalk21:
The Christian notion that some people deserve endless punishment, only to have their guilt shifted onto an innocent person, really undermines both justice and the perfection of God. In Islam, there’s a sense of balance; every individual is responsible for their own actions, and every victim will receive their due. That’s what true justice looks like.

Which is more just having the guilty confront their victims before God, or transferring guilt to an innocent person while the real oppressor goes unpunished?

Again, Is Jesus according to the Bible just another Innocent person or God Himself taking up our place in judgement for sin?

In Islam, there is no balance as you have conjured. I have given you an example of a Polytheist wronged by a repentant Muslim. Kindly show how the Muslim will pay for his offence against this polytheist or stop peddle conjectures.

What good does confronting the repentant Muslim is to a man of the inhabitant of hell?
By the way, what is even your evidence that the wronged person will confront the offender on the day of judgment


Forgiveness is received by Atonement:
Either you pay for your own sin by yourself
OR
God pays for your sin by Himself.

You can choose which one you want.

It is called GOOD NEWS when God pays it for you because/otherwise, the alternative is for you to spend your Eternity in Hell.