₦airaland Forum

Explore2xmore:
The Talmud is far more central to Judaism than the works of Naik or Deedat are to Islam.

That was not the question sir.
What we are saying is that the Talmud was written by non prophets AND they are WRONG.
But your prophet copied them while telling lies that it was Jibril!

Could Jibril have made such a blatant ERROR that the baby resemblance is a function of who ejaculates first?

Explore2xmore:
There is no blood relation there. It is your wish and you failed to answer if Joke Sylvia has a biological relation with her adopting parents.

A child is ADOPTED only because there is no biological relation to the parents. They become CHILDREN of the parents by Legal Pronouncements. So, if Joke Silva is Adopted, she is a Child of the Parents because they are not related by blood.

You say, Islam does not cancel ADOPTION!
So, why can you ask a Muslim man marry the Wife of your Son (by Adopted)?

Explore2xmore:
Genes on sex chromosomes (X and Y) do influence facial features to some extent, but they are not the main contributors to why a child resembles their mother or father.

Genetic inheritance of facial features is not linear or predictable. The exact mechanism is far more complex than the generic understanding suggests.

This was why Mohammed was indeed an illiterate!

The sperm and ovum each contain 23 chromosomes, which are haploid sets. These 23 chromosomes include: 22 autosomes (non-sex chromosomes) that are the same in both sperm and ovum 1 sex chromosome (allosome),

Autosomes are the 22 pairs of non-sex chromosomes inherited equally from both parents, carrying thousands of genes responsible for a wide range of traits such as eye color, height, and susceptibility to diseases

Therefore, it is NOT who ejaculates First between the man or the woman BUT the mix of the thousands of genes chromosomes in the specific Ovum and Sperm.

Your prophet was WRONG!
It was a lie that Jibril told him this ERROR!

Explore2xmore:
In the verse you fabricated by adding what isn't there and incerting a wrong inconceivable word or phrase in Arabic grammer? Keep exercising yourself in falsehood and make belief.

You find the Qur'an verse disgraceful!?
I can understand!
Can you please give me your own translation of
Qur'an 33:37
And [remember, O Muhammad], when you said to the one on whom Allah bestowed favor and you bestowed favor, "Keep your wife and fear Allah," while you concealed within yourself that which Allah is to disclose. And you feared the people, while Allah has more right that you fear Him. So when Zayd had no longer any need for her, We married her to you in order that there not be upon the believers any discomfort concerning the wives of their adopted sons when they no longer have need of them. And ever is the command of Allah

Explore2xmore:
It will be correct if there indeed was a copy to copy that from? Sure you don't understand that all that was compiled existed in written form and had those who had memorized.

I do perfectly understand!
When something is Left out of a copied document, it cannot be said to be perfectly preserved. When things are abrogated from the copied document, it cannot be perfectly preserved! When memorisers forget parts of the original, whatever you have cannot be perfectly preserved.

It is simple logic sir!

Explore2xmore:
The injil of Jesus wasn't documented and the four gospels you hold on to were not written in his lifetime. Don't they disagree with each other in certain reports?

The question was:
So, tell me why your God gave the name of the book given to Jesus a Greek influenced name?

MrHandsome2013:
A civil servant that started working when Nigeria was booming in 1970s.

He Worked 12 years being single before getting married.
That 12 years he worked was useless.

He didn’t marry his wife properly. No wedding pic of them as husband and wife.
No house of his own, no property,
No car , nothing.
What did he do with those 12 years.

Is it the remaining 23 years remaining to serve or retire , he will achieve anything being married with responsibilities.

This my unfortunate dad never achieved anything throughout his 35 years of working.
He was busy blaming his wife for putting him in chronic debt,
Now I sat down and began to think that this man was already a failure before he got married.
Because you have use 1/3 of your 35 years as a single man yet no single achievement.

Some men don’t deserve to married.
My dad is an evil man seriously speaking,
He knew he was a devil that has failed and instead of him to go to one seminary school.

He choose to go one village to deceive one illiterate girl to marry so they will bring innocent kid to suffer untold suffering.
Is this not pure witch crafts

No problem, we agree with you.
BUT
We are watching you too!
Your achievements before you marry an innocent girl.
And a Testimonial from this girl that you are the Best Husband any Wife could wish for!


Only then would we celebrate you!
The curse is broken forever!

Explore2xmore:
You should take up your deleted post with the platform not me or wrongly assume the reason for. In any case you tend to prefer WRONG Q and it's who you are.

Meaningless rattles!

Explore2xmore:
Where are the books of Deedat and Naik taken as sacred outside your mistaken manufacturing? Please tell and give evidence. Their opinions are largely impressive and revered but not to the extent of being sacred. Only you christians do that in promoting a messenger of God. A creation of God not God.

You can have your faulty conclusions and opinions within your rights.

Only with you does a simple question requires evidence.
Are the opinion Zakir Naik or Ahmed Deedat scriptures to you?

Explore2xmore:
Unable to differentiate that adoption isn't forbidden but an overreach corrected. Will Joke Sylvia's genetic test now show she us a biological descendant of her adopting parents?

How queer is your reasoning? Is that the meaning of the Q in your pseudonym or quarrelsome?

Islam doesn't cancel adoption but you can marry the wife of your adopted son!?

Qur'an 33:37
And [remember, O Muhammad], when you said to the one on whom Allah bestowed favor and you bestowed favor, "Keep your wife and fear Allah," while you concealed within yourself that which Allah is to disclose. And you feared the people, while Allah has more right that you fear Him. So when Zayd had no longer any need for her, We married her to you in order that there not be upon the believers any discomfort concerning the wives of their adopted sons when they no longer have need of them. And ever is the command of Allah


You have an adopted son, but you can marry his wife!?
SMH!!

Explore2xmore:
Sadly you are too far gone to see prophet Muhammad pbuh didn't refer to gender inheritance. It is your jewish brethren's view. Can you tell from your 23 chromosomes which exactly influence physical similarity in appearance? If this were the case what then is the point for going as far as cloning which isn't absolutely successful. Warped sillly thoughts you choose to have?

The GENE'S are in the chromosome sir. It has nothing to do with we ejaculates first.

It is an error the least Angel of God will make such a silly error!

Explore2xmore:
Show where and how lah is a standalone word. You can't. Keep lying to yourself and unthinking following friends.

Didn't In show you the correlation with the names of the daughters of Allah!?

By the way, if Allah is the name of your God, what does Allah mean?

Explore2xmore:
Regardless of your erroneous thoughts the Quran is perfectly preserved. The Qiraat have influence of the other harfs of divine revelation and there's nothing you can do about it.

Ireneus of Lyon said "There are four zones of the world… and four principal winds… it is fitting that the Church should have four pillars…”

This is not a theological or historical reason.

When something is Left out of a copied document, it cannot be said to be perfectly preserved. When things are abrogated from the copied document, it cannot be perfectly preserved!

Explore2xmore:
Goslel book titles were assigned later, possibly to lend credibility to anonymous texts.

The final form of Scripture had imperial sponsorship, which raises questions about independent spiritual consensus.

Texts that contradicted what came to be considered “orthodox” things like, that Jesus wasn’t divine, or that God didn’t create the material world—were excluded as heretical.

The process of canonization was as much about defining orthodoxy as preserving historical truth.

The Gospels were often chosen based on what they excluded, not just what they included.

Go figure that or query that instead. It will be more productive use of your time.

Bye!

So, tell me why your God gave the name of the book given to Jesus a Greek influenced name?

Again,
Then last part of my post

Mr Explore2xmore
As usual. My post was deleted after 6 hours

But here it is again. You can check for why you think the bots flagged it

Explore2xmore:
Very shameless of you to label the automate system as Muslim controlled when you know it is an automated system you fall foul off and is religion independent.

There are prompts that trigger the Bots: check if you could find any with my post. Only a human will delete posts scanned as pictures. The number of my posts deleted on this thread will be up to SIX.
Tell the overzealous moderator not to be afraid of the Truth!

Explore2xmore:
In any case you claim to restrict your analysis to between prophet Muhammad pbuh and Abubakar yet you don't have access to any of their material you claim to reference. Are you fooling yourself?

What a silly argument!
Do you have access as a Muslim to their Qur'an as Muslims?
At least In have shown you hadiths and the Qur'an to prove my case..

Explore2xmore:
You deliberately quote just a word from these alone verses because you know your lie will be exposed otherwise. Shame on you!

Then quote the full text and burst me!?
It is simple!
Only a Muslim will see untruths but hold on tightly to it.

Explore2xmore:
Why not? Do you think there is anything that occurs in this life that is outside the record, allowance and command of Allah? Keep creating your supreme deity in your own image.

Unfortunately, it is you who have created Allah in your own image. Allah looks exactly like the Dajjal except that the Dajjal has one eyes but Allah has two. The oneness of Allah is like the oneness of things on earth!

Explore2xmore:
The Quran was collected in the lifetime of prophet Muhammad pbuh. In the sense that it was fully revealed, explained, recited, written but not in one collection during his lifetime.

The Qur'an was collected BUT not collected.
The Qur'an was written BUT not written
The Qur'an was memorised BUT abrogated

You can see comedy of errors

Explore2xmore:
What was willed to be collected into the Quran is. Remember it was revised twice in the final year.

Either Jibril dictated to Mohammed as Quran things not in the Qur'an of Allah
OR
The Qur'an is NOT a copy but an abridged summary of the Qur'an of Allah.

Which of the two is it?

Explore2xmore:
What was to be retained remained in the memory of the companions, was found written and all what was abrogated wasn't found in memory and written form.

You see the gradual abrogation of alcohol consumption,verses that were abrogated during the Prophet’s lifetime,verses that were recited but not written like the so-called stoning verse but remain in the law.

But Adoption wasn't abrogated gradually!
SMH!
Marrying your adopted sons wife wasn't abrogated gradually!
SMH!

If alcoholic drink is from Shaitan , why gradually abrogate it?.

Explore2xmore:
Fluid prevalence can be metaphorical for genetic domination. In any case it will be great to understand all factors that influence gene domination.

You have to explain the error of Mohammed for him again!?

According to your prophet
As for the child, if the man's discharge proceeds the woman's discharge, the child attracts the similarity to the man, and if the woman's discharge proceeds the man's, then the child attracts the similarity to the woman."

This is COMPLETELY scientifically UNTRUE and INCORRECT?

Explore2xmore:
In essence not all abrogation means deletion. Sometimes the text remains, but the ruling changes as in alcohol verses). Also both text and ruling are lifted where such cases are called naskh al-tilāwah.

Another standard islamic narrative to explain away previous lies.
Were the abrogated verses in the eternal uncreated Qur'an of Allah in paradise or NOT?

Explore2xmore:
You deny that the divine authority residing in the Talmud, Mishnah, and Gemara stems from their reliance on the foundational truths presented in the Tanakh and Torah?

They have zero divine value o!
They are writings of different Jewish scholars and scribes.

Are the Books of Ahmed Deedat divine for you as Muslims ?
Are the Books of Zakir Naik divine for you as a Muslim?

Explore2xmore:
Well since you asset so high wisdom to yourself and claim to challenge Allah (may he be praised above all this and as is due to him) it is best to ignore you and leave you to Allah the almighty.

You asked a direct question and it was answered but you are angry!
Because Al-LAH is not YHWH is he?
Because Al-LAH is a subset of the Universe, isn't he?

Mr Explore2xmore,
Your Muslim Admin as usual has gone to delete my post. Why are you guys like this?

Part TWO

Mr Explore2xmore,
Your Muslim Admin as usual has gone to delete my post. Why are you guys like this?

I will deliberately break it into two. What are you guys afraid of?

CreativeOrbit:
No, the real problem is your intellectual laziness and circular tactics. You keep parroting the same loaded questions, not to seek truth, but to exhaust the conversation and create the illusion of superiority. That’s not a debate—it’s deflection.

You accuse me of repeating the Islamic narrative, yet you ignore every response and keep circling back to the same points you failed to prove. If you truly believed in your evidence, you wouldn’t need to repeat yourself like a broken record—you’d engage directly and consistently with my rebuttals.

If you ever had engaged me, you will note that you need more than repeating the same rhetorics of your standard islamic narrative to convince me because
My aim is to show you with EVIDENCE that your narratives are full of holes.

The way I do that is to SHOW you your Religious Literatures as my EVIDENCE and I ask you DIRECT QUESTIONS based on those Literatures.


1. What do I expect?
Answer my direct questions (who's objective is to show the weakness of the Islamic narrative) truthfully according to the text
What do you do?
You repeat the standard islamic narrative as if it is the answer to the direct question

2. What do I expect?
Prove your case with literatures from the Qur'an, Hadith and Biography of your prophet
What do you do?
You repeat the same standard islamic narrative as if it is the proof to explaining your position.

You get angry that I am not taking your Islamic narrative as the final answer when my objective is actually to debunk the narrative.



To you, the narrative is the Truth
BUT
For me, the Narratives are mere Conjectures


Example:
You believe that the Qur'an is perfectly preserved word for word, letter for letter down to the diacritical marks
For me, I show you from your religious literatures that evidence abound that your claim is completely UNTRUE

Don't forget that where I started with you was that YOU should define what you understand by COLLECTION of the Qur'an and you did.

However, immediately I applied your definition to Mohammed collecting the Qur'an during his lifetime, you freaked out. You fell back to repeating the standard islamic narrative and logic, truth and grammar was thrown out of the window.

From then, it was impossible to take Allah and Mohammed EXACTLY at their words except if their words are RE-INTERPRETED according to the standard islamic narrative.

You thus get angry because I refuse to go with the standard islamic narrative but choose to go with the plain INTERPRETATION of the text.
Must you put words into the mouths of Allah and Mohammad as if they are speech incapable?


This is your problem sir.

As per knowledge of Islam, I perceive that you have it. BUT you have probably never met a person who will grill you on the Verses of the Qur'an and Hadiths you accepted without question. This was why you disengaged with the discussion.

I will ask that you read our interactions once again without sentiments and also ask yourself the deep questions I ask you as almost every Islamic narrative break down irrevocably with scrutiny.


The Truth you know and adopt will certainly set you free!

Explore2xmore,
Just to correct you with more EVIDENCES: the admin deleted from my post.
PART TWO:

3. Ibn Mas’ud’s Statement on Missing Surahs

Musannaf Ibn Abi Shaybah 7/197-198
Abdullah ibn Mas’ud said:
"What we recite as a single surah (in the Mushaf) would (originally) be as long as Surah al-Baqarah."


This suggests that some parts of the Qur’an were much longer before being reduced or abrogated.

4. Hadith on the "Two Surahs" That Were Lost

Sahih Muslim 2289
Narrated by Abu Musa al-Ash’ari:
"We used to recite a surah similar in length and severity to Surah Bara’ah (At-Tawbah), but I have forgotten it except for a single verse : 'If the son of Adam had two valleys of wealth, he would seek a third, and nothing fills the belly of the son of Adam except dust...'"


This confirms that some surahs or verses were once part of the Qur’an but are no longer preserved in the Mushaf.



5. Zaid ibn Thabit’s Statement on Missing Verses

Musannaf Ibn Abi Shaybah 10/519
Zaid ibn Thabit said:
"We used to recite a verse that was revealed concerning the struggle in the way of Allah, but it is not found now: 'Strive in the way of Allah with a striving that is due to Him.'"


This further prove that some Qur’anic revelations were lost over time. Yet you claim perfect preservation!

Explore2xmore,
Just to correct you with more EVIDENCES: the admin deleted from my post.
PART ONE:

1. Hadith About Lost Verses (Including the Stoning Verse)

Sahih al-Bukhari 6829, Sahih Muslim 1691
Narrated by 'Umar ibn al-Khattab:
"Allah sent Muhammad with the Truth and revealed the Book to him. Among what Allah revealed was the Verse of the Stoning, so we recited it, understood it, and acted upon it. The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) stoned (adulterers), and we stoned after him. I fear that with the passage of time, someone will say, 'By Allah, we do not find the Verse of Stoning in the Book of Allah,' thus they will go astray by abandoning an obligation that Allah revealed."

This shows that some verses, like the Rajm (stoning) verse, were once part of the Qur’an but are no longer present in the compiled text.

Yet, your Qur'an is preserved!?

2. Hadith About the "Suckling Verse" (Ayah al-Rada’ah)


Sahih Muslim 1452, Sunan Abu Dawud 2062
Narrated by 'Aisha:
"Among what was revealed of the Qur’an was 'ten known sucklings' (to establish mahram relations), then it was abrogated by 'five known sucklings.' When the Prophet (ﷺ) passed away, this was among what was recited of the Qur’an."


This indicates that some verses related to rulings were later abrogated and removed from the Qur'an after the death of Mohammed.

Explore2xmore

Here are just TWO where verses mean different things between the Warsh Qur'an and Hafs Qur'an

1. Surah Al-Imran (3:146)
Hafs version: The verse uses the word "قاتل" (qātila), meaning "fought". It says the prophets fought alongside many godly men.
Warsh version: The verse uses the word "قُتِلَ" (qutila), meaning "were killed". It says many prophets were killed along with their companions.

Is it possible to fight but not killed?

2. Surah Al-Baqarah (2:140)
Hafs version: Uses the word "تقولون" (taqulūna), meaning "you say", addressing the Jews and Christians directly.
Warsh version: Uses "يقولون" (yaqulūna), meaning "they say", referring to them indirectly.

Who said what to who?


Here is Allah's promise again as I am giving it to you for the second time in this thread.
Qur'an 87:6-7
"We shall make you recite, so you will not forget, except what Allah wills. Indeed, He knows what is manifest and what is hidden."

Tell me how the Qur'an of Mohammed can be identical to the Kalam Allah if Mohammed forgot just one word of it?


Not identical word for word, dot for dot! I have shown you evidences from your sources.


Ibn Mas'ud's Qur'an
1. Ibn Mas'ud’s mushaf did not include Surah al-Fatiha (the Opening) and the two final chapters, al-Falaq and al-Nas (collectively known as al-Mu’awwidhatayn)
2. The order of surahs in Ibn Mas'ud’s mushaf differed from the canonical arrangement established in Abubakar's Qur'an

https://www.icraa.org/surahs-mushaf-ibn-masud/

Ubayy's Qur'an
1. Ubayy’s Qur'an is reported to have included two additional surahs not found in the Uthmanic (and thus Abu Bakr’s) mushaf: Surah al-Hafd and Surah al-Khal’ (sometimes numbered as 115 and 116)

https://www.icraa.org/no-of-surahs-in-ubayys-mushaf/

Explore2xmore:
Honesttalk21 properly explained the hadith you misunderstood. Should he have given new hadith to buttress the point?

I don't explain hadiths, I ask questions about them. Honesttalk21 repeatedly did not answer most of my direct questions on the hadiths. I didn't ask for explanation of hadiths I asked that you answer my questions and here you both failed.

Explore2xmore:
You see your eagerness to run with your misconceptions? Is what the prophet pbuh said exactly like the what the jews said? Please don't rush to wrongly conclude, read and compare so you know.

According to your prophet
As for the child, if the man's discharge proceeds the woman's discharge, the child attracts the similarity to the man, and if the woman's discharge proceeds the man's, then the child attracts the similarity to the woman."

Is this scientifically true and correct?

Explore2xmore:
If the Jews had problems with Jesus did you not even expand on what these wrong are? Did Jesus call you christian or ask you to disobey the old laws not the wrong priestly actions and interpretation,

So, tell me where the Jews got this information from their scripture. If it is in there Scriptures, then I believe it!
Is this in the scripture of the Jews or their scholars invented it?

Explore2xmore:
You won't believe in any case.
Which scientific errors did the prophet Muhammad pbuh transmit? Rather you are the one in error.

According to Mohammed, he said:
As for the child, if the man's discharge proceeds the woman's discharge, the child attracts the similarity to the man, and if the woman's discharge proceeds the man's, then the child attracts the similarity to the woman."

This is a gross ERROR!

Explore2xmore:
Fantastic! You now lie that you have a Quran of Muhammad pbuh that is different from that of Abu Bakr?

Please share some verses of each i.e of prophet Muhammad pbuh and Abubakar, to prove and validate if you don't characteristically lie.

1. Was the verse of stoning adulterers in the Qur'an of Abubakar? No! But it was in the Qur'an according to Mohammed
1. Was the verse of breastfeeding an adult man in the Qur'an of Abubakar? No! But it was in the Qur'an according to Mohammed

Explore2xmore:
Please these are Qiraat (recitation types). In total they are 20 not 32 and you can fit your false claim of 32 into them.

None give any core difference in core meaning. Try prove me wrong!

I will give you differences between the Warsh Qur'an and the Hafs Qur'an in the next page.

Explore2xmore:
What did he say against Ibn Masud and Ubay? For him to have said and be recognised is simply because verifiable information was available for him to study, reference and give valid views about. Nothing was or is hidden?

What did you say about him?

Explore2xmore:
Don't put your words into my written responses. The Quran was written and the prophet orally informed which verses and surahs went where. The Quran wasn't compiled into a single book in the prophet's life.

Which irrelevant question exactly did I not answer?

Why do you ask of Prophet Muhammad pbuh 's Quran when you already have it to have compared with Abubakar's? You were lying so easily forgot?

You showed discrepancy between Muhammad pbuh's Quran and Abubakar's?



This may become your reknown archaeological find when you find it.

There's no surviving example of Quran written on cloth that has been authenticated to date as being from the 7th century,from Medina or Mecca that was written during the Prophet’s actual lifetime.

Cloth is much less durable than parchment or bone, especially in Arabia’s climate. It likely decomposed over time, unlike more robust materials.

In other words the Qur'an of Mohammed perished even before Abubakar complied his Qur'an.
Thank you!

Explore2xmore:
What is your problem here? What is to be is, a few verses abrogated are seen along with what abrogated them.
Yes I repeat what is preserved and protected by Allah is what is available to the very exact. Inclusive of the variations you ignorantly yap about as different.

Repeating already answered questions will be ignored.

According to you:
The unpreserved Qur'an is preserved because what is left from the original Qur'an is preserved!

Listen to yourself, you just concluded that the eternal Qur'an was not perfectly preserved.

CreativeOrbit:
Your assumption is misplaced. My decision to momentarily disengage was not due to inability or lack of knowledge, but because engaging further with someone who continuously shifts the goalpost and ignores consistency adds no value.

You speak of "truth" yet constantly rely on selective arguments, emotional appeals, and misrepresentations. If you were truly committed to truth, you'd hold yourself to the same standards of scrutiny you demand of others—especially regarding your own scriptures, history, and political stances.

As a Muslim, I am guided by the principle:
"Do not argue with the People of the Book except in the best manner—except with those who act unjustly..." (Qur’an 29:46).
I do not engage endlessly in debates that have turned into provocations rather than sincere inquiry.

You speak of a decision between “truth vs. sentiment.” I agree. But truth is not decided by personal stories or theological bravado—it is established through reason, consistency, and submission to divine guidance. For us, that guidance is the Qur’an, a Book preserved not just word-for-word, but letter-for-letter—with a divine challenge still unmatched to this day.

If you’re truly seeking truth, begin by being consistent. Truth is not afraid of questioning—but it does require honesty.

No sir!
It is not about arguments it was a DEBATE where FACTS are to be Traded in DEFENCE of a Position Held.

You were not willing to face the EVIDENCES I was showing you.
Instead, you wanted me to accept the Standard Islamic Narrative against the Evidences I am supplying.

You DO NOT want me to ASK you Questions relating to your Hadiths, Qur'an and Sirah. Instead of showing counter Proof or Evidence against my position, all you do is to repeat the Standard Islamic Narrative.

This is my problem with you!

Explore2xmore:
Very weak and vain of you to bring in celebrate? What is there to celebrate?

It is amazing that honesttalk21 didn't provide evidences nor did he answer any direct questions BUT according to you, his repeating of the standard Islamic Narrative is a superior answer to evidences he couldn't respond to!

Explore2xmore:
Talmud is not scripture, but is essential for understanding and practicing the religion.

So the Jews are wrong to state tha?

All that a diligent student will innovate in Torah was already given to Moses at Sinai.”
— Talmud, Menachot 29b

“The words of the Scribes are more beloved than the words of the Torah.”
— Talmud, Sanhedrin 11:3

Oh you say you are Christian and claim you don't see any significance in the jews?

Isn't it a shame that your prophet who should receive from Allah is regurgitating wrong information written by Jewish scholars in their books.

The Jews are wrong in many fronts, this was why they had problems with Jesus Christ.

Is it not true that ANYTHING of Doctrinal value that Mohammed speaks is directed by Allah?


If it is TRUE, you have a problem that Mohammed was transmitting scientific errors as from Allah

Explore2xmore:
Please use any of your innovative devices to go record the recitation over 23 years of prophethood.

You will notice that I have concentrated just between the Qur'an of Mohammed and the Qur'an of Abubakar and I have shown you discrepancies you cannot dispute.

Explore2xmore:
Go and study your claimed 32 Arabic Quran and regroup them for which are the same. There is a fundamental error in the claim.

Hafs Qur'an
Warsh Qur'an
Qalun Qur'an
Al-Duri Qur'an
Khalaf Qur'an
Ibn 'Amir Qur'an
Abu Ja'far Qur'an

Are all different, so which one is the exact copy of the Qur'an of Allah in paradise?

Explore2xmore:
You can't find out who Imam Al-Qarafi is without me? Seriously now

He was born about 600 years after the Hijrah but he is your authority on the Qur'an against testimonies of Ibn Mas'ud and Ubayy!?


You did NOT answer my questions sir.
AGAIN:

Cc: Honesttalk21 and CreativeOrbit

1. You just agreed with me that the Qur'an was collected and written down during the lifetime of your prophet.

I still ask the Question
Where is the Qur'an of Mohammed written on pieces of clothes?

2. You said:
The Qur’an we have today is complete not because it includes every word ever revealed, but because it includes everything Allah *willed* to remain. This view is upheld by both Sunni and Shi’a scholars,
BUT, the claim of modern Muslims is that, the Qur'an has been perfectly preserved word for word, letter for letter even up to the diacritical marks.

So, my question remains
Which of the over 32 Arabic Qur'an in existence is the EXACT copy of the Kalam Allah/ the Qur'an of Allah in paradise from which Jibril recited the Qur'an to Mohammed?

Explore2xmore:
Don't react in this way. I only pointed out a clear flaw in the position your friend Sirtee15 put you in.

The chain of transmission provides a trace back to the origin from the prophet Muhammad pbuh which you choose to overlook or are unable to study.

The variants you force about are divine. What is there to run from? Keeping the discussion centred on the Quran's preservation!

So , go back to my posts you decided not to touch.

Only Muslims celebrate winning after they have been beaten blue-black like Gaza will celebrate winning whenever Israel just finished dealing with them.

Three pages of evidence against you!

Explore2xmore:
...
Did Tenq show how the core meaning of the verses were lost? Did he prove any wrong or faults in the transmission chain? No!

It is a pity for you.
Chain of Transmission of Qur'an!?
When I did not even extend beyond the differences between the Qur'an of Mohammed and that of Abubakar? I have not even gotten to the Qur'an of Uthman yet.

Explore2xmore:
Or is it how honesttalk21 dismantled his reliance on a pronounciation of words in one verse that is easily explained by dialectic difference you refer to?

No wonder, the cowardly Admin deleted my response specifically to you on your self make-believe about honesttalk21.

Anyone who reads this chat from the beginning will see how weak your Islamic position is about the Qur'an!

To change the subject, you ran away from specific hadiths 1-5 to argue with SIRTeee15 to argue about CONSENSUS of Islamic scholars who came 300 to 600 years after Mohammed!

Go back to the origin of Islam and check what your earliest scholars say.

CreativeOrbit:
Thank you for your reply. While I appreciate your acknowledgment that nuclear weapons should not be monopolized, your reasoning regarding Iran still reflects selective judgment and overlooks key facts.

1. On the issue of threats:
There is no official Iranian state policy or declaration that explicitly vows to "wipe out" another nation using nuclear weapons. The oft-cited quote attributed to Iranian leaders about the “eradication” of Israel is regularly mistranslated or taken out of context—often referring to the Zionist regime, not to Jewish people or the State of Israel in existential terms. Iran’s official doctrine—both military and religious—prohibits the use of nuclear weapons. In fact, Supreme Leader Ayatollah Khamenei issued a fatwa declaring the development and use of nuclear weapons haram (religiously forbidden).

2. On double standards and historical precedent:
You claim Iran should be denied nuclear deterrence based on its rhetoric, yet ignore Israel's concrete record:

Possession of undeclared nuclear weapons

Refusal to join the NPT

Preemptive strikes in neighboring countries (Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, etc.)

Assassinations of Iranian scientists and military officers

Occupation and illegal settlement in Palestinian territories
These are not hypothetical threats—they are actions. If we deny nuclear rights based on ideology, then these acts must also justify equal scrutiny.

3. On other nuclear powers:
The assumption that countries like the U.S., France, or Israel are inherently “safe” with nuclear weapons ignores their histories of war, invasions, regime change operations, and civilian casualties. The 2003 invasion of Iraq by the U.S. (based on false claims of WMDs) caused mass death and regional instability. Are we to trust such powers solely because of their political alliances?

4. On Iran and sectarianism:
Raising the Sunni-Shia divide or Saudi fears is not a valid argument against Iran’s rights. Strategic rivalries exist among many nations—India vs. Pakistan, North vs. South Korea—yet deterrence, not denial, has preserved balance. It is not Iran’s sectarian identity that is the issue—it is the geopolitical interests of the West and Israel that resist a regional counterbalance.

5. On Pakistan:
Pakistan pursued nuclear capability due to existential threats from India. By your standard, it should have been denied nuclear weapons. Yet today, its arsenal has contributed to a fragile but lasting deterrence in South Asia. Iran seeks the same balance—not domination.

Conclusion:
A just and peaceful world order cannot be built on selective morality. If nuclear weapons are inherently dangerous, disarm everyone. If deterrence is allowed, allow it fairly. Singling out Iran on ideological grounds while excusing the illegal stockpiles and wars of others is not a path to peace—it is a formula for injustice.

Let us advocate for a nuclear-free Middle East through fairness, not fear. Iran has supported that idea. Israel has blocked it.

1. Yes, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, Iran's Supreme Leader, has explicitly threatened the destruction of Israel. He has vowed to "destroy" or "wipe out" Israel, describing the Israeli regime as an "abhorrent Zionist regime" that must be eliminated

https://www.yahoo.com/news/irans-supreme-leader-vows-destroy-191134502.html?utm_source=perplexity&guccounter=1


Khamenei has also referred to Israel as a "cancerous tumor" that should be eradicated.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/do-tehrans-nuclear-program-and-terror-proxies-legally-justify-israels-attack/?utm_source=perplexity

2. Israel has not even acknowledged that they have nuclear weapons (even though we all know they do). The difference is that Israel has not threatened the existence of any nation including Iran.
Isra-el fights only those who consider themselves as enemies to the existence and survival of Israel and they have done everything to normalise relationship with Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Jordan and many Arab countries. Iran is the opposite to this!

3. No!
4. The point is: has Israel threatened any neighbouring nation eradication? No! Has Saudi Arabia? No! Has Syria? No! But has Iran ? YES!
This is big problem.

If Iran can Arm Hezbollah and Houthis with hypersonic missiles and ballistic missiles, do you think they wouldn't do that with Nuclear weapons if they had one?

Do you think it is safe for Israel to wait until Iran have their nuclear weapon before they take action against it?

5. It is an erroneous claim that Pakistan pursued nuclear capability due to existential threats from India. No sir.
India conducted its first nuclear test on May 18, 1974, known as "Smiling Buddha". Pakistan conducted its first nuclear tests on May 28, 1998, with five devices detonated in the Chagai district, followed by a sixth test on May 30, 1998

Both countries were simultaneously working on acquisition of nuclear weapons it is not about existential threats.

If not for ISLAMIC NARRATIVES, there should be no enemity between Israel and Iran.

Do you DENY that Iran feel that they are the LEADER of the Muslims all over the world to usher in the Al-Mahdi and the ultimate reign of Muslims at the end time.





Mr CreativeOrbit
It seems you are knowledgeable in Islam and this was why you disengaged from continuing the debate. Don't you think you need to CONFRONT the TRUTH rather than holding on to what could lead you permanently out of the presence of God?

Your help is needed with my other post about the Word for Word, Letter for Letter preservation of the Quran down to the diacritical marks.

There was a time in my Life I had to make this same decision: the Truth Vs Sentiments
I chose the Truth!

AntiChristian:
The reason Jesus came to the world is the same reason other Prophets like Noah, Moses, Abraham, etc came into the world!

To guide to the true worship of the one and only God without partners!

Modified!
Jesus wasn't sent to everyone! He didn't preach to everyone he met! Some he just healed. He told the Canaanite woman he was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel! So Jesus's world is only Israel not Nigeria or Africa!

And even though Mohammed was the greatest of all the prophets, only Jesus according to Islam
1. Created Life from clay exactly as Allah made Adam. The only co-creator of Life besides Allah!
2. Jesus knew things you hide in your room
3. Jesus was born from a virgin even when is is not necessary for the Islamic Dawah
4. Jesus did not die as Allah took him up to himself (by his arsh above the seventh heaven?
5. Jesus is coming back again and will be a judge over mankind
6. Jesus raised the dead
7. Jesus cured the Lepers and healed the sick.

But Allah saw that he made a mistake by sending Jesus which he tried to correct 640 years later by Mohammed.

Unfortunately, Allah created Christianity because he did not think through the damage he is causing by sending Jesus to the World.
SMH!

horlatunji00:
Who's Jesus? Is he a prophet or the creator?
If he is the Creator, how can what he created nailed him ?
Does the creator need to be take care of? Remember, Mary took care of him when Jesus was a child
What's his real name ?

Honesttalk21 and CreativeOrbit

Explore2xmore:
That bin Salam understood the hypocritical behaviour of his people?

Since Abdullah bin Salam was also a Jew, nothing stops him from being the greatest of the hypocrites! He could in fact be the best of them in hypocrisy. Have you heard of deep-cover spys before?
They are indistinguishable from the people they are impersonating!
LOL!

Explore2xmore:
You also are far from aware that in
Talmud – Niddah 31a (Babylonian Talmud):
If the woman emits seed first, she will give birth to a male. If the man emits seed first, she will give birth to a female.

This version inverts the genders compared to the hadith.

But it still links order of climax/ejaculation to child’s sex.

1. The Talmud is NOT scripture. This is the writing of the scribes distorting the scriptures prophet Jeremiah complained of. But it is also a proof that Mohammed was copying many things from the Jews including ERRORS!
2. For now, my objective is not to argue the scientific blunder made either in the Talmud or the Qur'an. The Sex chromosomes in the Ovum and the Sperm determine the sex of any baby
Otherwise
Pregnancy from RAPE must be of only one Gender!
Is it UNTRUE that the man who rapes Always ejaculates FIRST?
So, if pregnancy results, what usually is the gender of the baby?

Like I said: the three questions asked are NOT my objective in this post


You have not responded to my two questions sir.
Again, my TWO Questions:
1. So, is Abdullah bin Salam a prophet of Allah or Mohammed?
It seems every prophet before Mohammed knew the answer except Mohammed until Jibril told him!

2. How come Mohammed was a prophet but he didn't know the answer till Abdullah bin Salam asked him?

Honesttalk21 and CreativeOrbit

Explore2xmore:
3. The Prophet pbuh personally supervised the Compilation as he

* Called scribes to write specific verses,
* Arranged them in precise order,
* Instructed that certain revelations not be recorded as Qur’an due to abrogation.

Thus, what remained in the Qur’an was only what the Prophet pbuh affirmed and this is the essence of true preservation.

Furthermore, the compilation of the Qur’an under Caliph Uthman was done with the full consensus of the companions. None of them, including those who narrated abrogated or lifted verses, ever claimed the Qur’an was incomplete. Even scholars from the Ahl al-Bayt affirmed its authenticity.

Imam al-Baqir: No one can claim he possesses more of the Qur’an than what is in the muṣḥaf.

Imām Jaʿfar al-Ṣādiq: The Qur’an is one, revealed by One, and confirmed by the Prophet.

The Qur’an we have today is complete not because it includes every word ever revealed, but because it includes everything Allah *willed* to remain. This view is upheld by both Sunni and Shi’a scholars, including Tusi, Tabrisi, al-Suyuti, and Fakhr al-Din al-Razi.

1. You just agreed with me that the Qur'an was collected and written down during the lifetime of your prophet.

I still ask the Question
Where is the Qur'an of Mohammed written on pieces of clothes?

2. You said:
The Qur’an we have today is complete not because it includes every word ever revealed, but because it includes everything Allah *willed* to remain. This view is upheld by both Sunni and Shi’a scholars,
BUT, the claim of modern Muslims is that, the Qur'an has been perfectly preserved word for word, letter for letter even up to the diacritical marks.

So, my question remains
Which of the over 32 Arabic Qur'an in existence is the EXACT copy of the Kalam Allah/ the Qur'an of Allah in paradise from which Jibril recited the Qur'an to Mohammed?

Honesttalk21 and CreativeOrbit

Explore2xmore:
2. Abrogation Was Part of the Revelation Process. As Allah says:
We do not abrogate a verse or cause it to be forgotten except that We bring forth one better than it or similar to it.
(Surah al-Baqarah 2:106)

When companions like Zayd ibn Thābit or Aʾishah mention certain verses that were once recited, they are not implying anything was lost rather, they’re affirming that some verses were revealed and then divinely lifted.

No problem! If Qur'an 2:106 is correct,
1. What is the better or similar replacement for the verse on breastfeeding an adult man 5 times (it used to be 10 before the first abrogation in Mohammed's time)?
2. What is the similar or better replacement for the verse on stoning an adulterer in the Qur'an?
3. What is the better or similar replacement for verse lost in Surah Bara’ah?


It seems you do not know that it is beneath God to produce words that are not perfect. Otherwise, looking at
Qur'an 2:106
We do not abrogate a verse or cause it to be forgotten except that We bring forth one better than it or similar to it.


1. Why would Allah reveal a verse then abrogate it to bring a SIMILAR verse and not the original?
Could this be an excuse when Mohammed forgets the verse he taught his followers a day before?
2. Why would Allah bring an imperfect verse only to repent and change his mind a few days after to bring a BETTER verse?
Could this be an excuse when Mohammed reviewed the verse he taught his followers a day before and found it silly enough to modify it?
3. Doesn't this negate the standard islamic narrative that the Qur'an is an attribute of Allah and thus eternal?
How can that which is eternal change with time?

Honesttalk21 and CreativeOrbit

Explore2xmore:
It’s unfortunate that there seems to be a misunderstanding regarding the preservation of the Qur’an. Allow me to clarify the matter:

1. Preservation Does Not Mean Every Revelation Was Included

The presence of abrogation or references to lifted verses does not compromise the perfection of the Quran’s preservation. Rather, it affirms that the Qur’an was preserved exactly as Allah intended through divine selection of what should remain recited and recorded, and what was to be lifted. The Prophet pbuh personally oversaw this process, instructing where each verse belonged.

It’s important to distinguish between different forms of revelation:

Qur’an (recited revelation )– Recited as scripture.
Hadith Qudsi – Sacred but not part of the Qur’an.
Abrogated Verses – Once revealed, then lifted.

The Prophet pbuh received many revelations, but not all were meant for permanent inclusion in the Qur’an. As Imām al-Qarāfī noted in al-Furūq, preservation was never about including every revealed word, but preserving what Allah intended to endure.

1. This seems like an excuse invented centuries after Mohammed to explain away evidences that verses were omitted from the present Quran.
2. Can you give me any evidence where Mohammed or Jibril said a verse should be recited but such verse is not supposed to be the final Qur'an.
3. We're such verses included in the Qur'an of Allah in paradise or the Qur'an on earth is a summary?
4. Who is Imām al-Qarāfī and when was he born?

Sorry,
It seems a Muslim moderator is deleting my posts, so I have to break this up into small bits. Let's see if he will delete four posts at once

Seun,
I want to make a report of a Muslim admin in the religion section deleting posts he doesn't like ad if it was a bot.

It has become a common occurrence especially for my posts.

It is an intellectual fraud for such to be happening. I don't know why a Muslim admin as administrative power over content in the Christian section of Nairaland

An example is:

https://www.nairaland.com/8448350/jimrohn-say-quran-perfectly-preserved/6#135837319


It was deleted after three other posts were made.

Thank you

CreativeOrbit:
Your agreement in principle is noted, but the justification you present for denying Iran its right to a nuclear deterrent lacks consistency and fairness. If the mere suspicion or rhetoric of a government is enough to deny a sovereign state access to defensive capabilities, then the same standard must apply universally—including to Israel.

Israel has not only possessed nuclear weapons for decades but has also refused to sign the Non-Proliferation Treaty (NPT), unlike Iran, which is a signatory and has allowed inspections under the IAEA framework. Moreover, Israel has engaged in preemptive wars, assassinations of scientists, and occupation of foreign land—concrete actions, not just rhetoric.

If your concern is Iran’s alleged threat to Israel's existence, then the solution is not selective disarmament but rather establishing a nuclear-free zone in the Middle East—a proposal historically supported by Iran but rejected by Israel.

Finally, it is dangerous to justify the monopolization of nuclear arms in the hands of one state, especially in a volatile region, based on hypothetical threats. That logic leads to a world where power, not principle, determines legitimacy. Peace and stability demand fairness—not double standards.

1. I believe nuclear weapons shouldn't be a monopoly of a few countries like USA, Russia, China or Israel
2. I also strongly believe that any country that has vowed to eliminate or wipeout another country based on ideological differences should be prevented from having it.

Except for North Korea, I don't know any other nuclear power nation that had vowed or threatened to erase another country with their nuclear weapons except Iran.

Israel has nuclear weapons but have they threatened any country with it? Are countries afraid of France, Britain, China or USA because they have nuclear weapons?

Pakistan is an Islamic country but they pose no existential threat to any neighbouring countries.

Is the problem of Iran because they are Shia Muslims? Even Saudi Arabia is AFRAID of Iran.

Before another zealous Muslim admin delete it again. SMH!


Explore2xmore, Honesttalk21 and CreativeOrbit
Just to correct you with more EVIDENCES: the admin deleted from my post.
PART TWO:

3. Ibn Mas’ud’s Statement on Missing Surahs

Musannaf Ibn Abi Shaybah 7/197-198
Abdullah ibn Mas’ud said:
"What we recite as a single surah (in the Mushaf) would (originally) be as long as Surah al-Baqarah."


This suggests that some parts of the Qur’an were much longer before being reduced or abrogated.

4. Hadith on the "Two Surahs" That Were Lost

Sahih Muslim 2289
Narrated by Abu Musa al-Ash’ari:
"We used to recite a surah similar in length and severity to Surah Bara’ah (At-Tawbah), but I have forgotten it except for a single verse : 'If the son of Adam had two valleys of wealth, he would seek a third, and nothing fills the belly of the son of Adam except dust...'"


This confirms that some surahs or verses were once part of the Qur’an but are no longer preserved in the Mushaf.



5. Zaid ibn Thabit’s Statement on Missing Verses

Musannaf Ibn Abi Shaybah 10/519
Zaid ibn Thabit said:
"We used to recite a verse that was revealed concerning the struggle in the way of Allah, but it is not found now: 'Strive in the way of Allah with a striving that is due to Him.'"


This further prove that some Qur’anic revelations were lost over time. Yet you claim perfect preservation!

Explore2xmore, Honesttalk21 and CreativeOrbit
Just to correct you with more EVIDENCES: the admin deleted from my post.
PART ONE:

1. Hadith About Lost Verses (Including the Stoning Verse)

Sahih al-Bukhari 6829, Sahih Muslim 1691
Narrated by 'Umar ibn al-Khattab:
"Allah sent Muhammad with the Truth and revealed the Book to him. Among what Allah revealed was the Verse of the Stoning, so we recited it, understood it, and acted upon it. The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) stoned (adulterers), and we stoned after him. I fear that with the passage of time, someone will say, 'By Allah, we do not find the Verse of Stoning in the Book of Allah,' thus they will go astray by abandoning an obligation that Allah revealed."

This shows that some verses, like the Rajm (stoning) verse, were once part of the Qur’an but are no longer present in the compiled text.

Yet, your Qur'an is preserved!?

2. Hadith About the "Suckling Verse" (Ayah al-Rada’ah)


Sahih Muslim 1452, Sunan Abu Dawud 2062
Narrated by 'Aisha:
"Among what was revealed of the Qur’an was 'ten known sucklings' (to establish mahram relations), then it was abrogated by 'five known sucklings.' When the Prophet (ﷺ) passed away, this was among what was recited of the Qur’an."


This indicates that some verses related to rulings were later abrogated and removed from the Qur'an after the death of Mohammed.

Explore2xmore:
Yes I agree with you.
You clearly showed him that

You definitely delight in fooling yourselves as Muslims. The things I firstly showed him are the exact things you said he showed me!?

Explore2xmore:
1. Jam‘ al-Qur’an refers to both the memorization and the written compilation of the Quran.

A. So, where are the SEVEN Ahruf of Mohammed if the Qur'an is perfectly preserved?
B. Of the Qur'an of Mohammed written on pieces of clothes, where were they when Abubakar was collecting his Qur'an?
C. Is the Qur'an of Abubakar (by recitation) IDENTICAL to the Qur'an of Mohammed (according to recitation)?

Explore2xmore:
2. The Prophet pbuh had scribes who recorded verses during his lifetime.

A. Was the Qur'an of Ibn Mas'ud identical to the Qur'an of Abubakar?
B. Was the Qur'an of Ubayy identical to the Qur'an of Abubakar?

But these are the best reciters Mohammed commanded you to take Qur'an from?

Explore2xmore:
3. Abū Bakr’s team followed strict guidelines, requiring written proof and two witnesses for verification.

A. Take the Qur'an from FOUR was the command of your prophet: why did you disobey clear instruction from your prophet.
B. If the Qur'an of Abubakar was perfect, why was the Qur'an of Uthman collected afresh?
C. Since the Qur'an of Abubakar was different from the Qur'an of Uthman, which of the two Qur'an is IDENTICAL by recitation to the Qur'an recited by Mohammed?

Explore2xmore:
4. ʿUthmān focused on standardizing the dialect, not altering the content.

A. So, apart from dialectical differences, was the Qur'an of Abubakar IDENTICAL to the Qur'an of Uthman?

Explore2xmore:
5. The Qur’an has been preserved through widespread memorization and manuscripts, with no changes to its doctrine.

A. If the Qur'an is identical through widespread memorisation, where is the verse of stoning (Rajam) of adulterers in the Qur'an?
B. If the Qur'an is identical through widespread memorisation, where is the verse of breastfeeding an adult man ten times (later abrogated to five times in the Qur'an) in the Qur'an?
C. The recitation of your best reciter was left out, yet your Qur'an is perfectly preserved!?
Sahih al-Bukhari 5005
Narrated Ibn `Abbas:
`Umar said, Ubai was the best of us in the recitation (of the Qur'an) yet we leave some of what he recites.' Ubai says, 'I have taken it from the mouth of Allah's Messenger and will not leave for anything whatever." But Allah said "None of Our Revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten but We substitute something better or similar." Quran 2.106

Explore2xmore:
6. There are no lost surahs, no additions, and no editing councils involved.

A. Until you find for us the verses of Rajam in your Qur'an for us
B. Until you show us the verses of breastfeeding an adult man ten times (later abrogated to five)

Explore2xmore:
No other scripture boasts this level of preservation. Let’s be real about the evidence.

Only in Islam would they tell lies against evidence that their Qur'an is word for word, letter for letter, dot for dot IDENTICAL with the Qur'an of Mohammed, yet what we see is a web of lies and cover-ups.

Explore2xmore:
Why would you think question 1.

2. Please enlighten me about other prophets being asked this question and their answers

1. Because he knows the answer Mohammed did not yet know.
2. The set of questions never existed either I. Judaism or Christianity. Only in Islam did we see the question being asked and the answer given.

Again, my TWO Questions:
1. So, is Abdullah bin Salam a prophet of Allah or Mohammed?
It seems every prophet before Mohammed knew the answer except Mohammed until Jibril told him!
2. How come Mohammed was a prophet but he didn't know the answer till Abdullah bin Salam asked him?

See how you evaded the main question for something else!?
SMH!!

honesttalk21:
The same eyes you used to misread and understand the hadith you used to wrongly srate the Quran is not preserved?

From challenges of dialect pronounciation, misunderstanding and over simplifying ahruf, Qiraat, initial reluctance, inclusions of explanations and supplications in personal Mushaf?

Sorry your premise of arguments are fallacious and THE QURAN IS PRESERVED.

I end my comments on this thread.

Your conscience will continue to prick you as the TRUTH you cannot say you don't know.

Just as JimRohn, who quickly recognised the disaster awaiting him and fled, I am not surprised you have chosen to flee.

I am sure you have seen from my last question how much ignorance you have even about your own religious literatures.

Your Problem:
You don't ask Questions!
If you had asked questions, you wouldn't have remained a Muslim!

Jesus said:
When you know the Truth and adopt it, this Truth will set you free!

John 8:32:
"And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."