₦airaland Forum

gohf:
there is nothing like for us in the Greek text, what's written is but he the (holy) Spirit makes intercession (interceeds) with unspeakable utterance(groanings/sighs)

Even if we don't understand clearly what Paul wrote here as his aim wasn't to speak concerning praying in the spirit,

1Cor.14.14 - For if I pray in tongues, my spirit is praying, but I don't understand what I am saying.
1Cor.14.15 - Well then, what shall I do? I will do both. I will pray in the spirit, and I will pray in words I understand. I will sing in the spirit, and I will sing in words I understand.


If you interpret praying in the spirit to mean the spirit praying

Then should we also interpret praying in our understanding as our understanding praying?

We are saying exactly the same thing.

The Holy Spirit is the ONE who makes Intersessions for us with Groaning and not our spirit

honesttalk21:
So rather than comply with the limits of a system you operate on you found a way to go around the rules.

That shows quite a lot. Should you genuinely intend to communicate or pass your opinion do the appropriate.

It shows that I will go every length to expose falsehood, promote the truth even when the system goes against me as long as I do not violate any of God's laws.

Internet had been your own downfall because lies becomes exposed with information from your own books.

Let me ask you a question
Why does Mohammed and Allah share so many attributes together?


In context:
Qutham Ibn Abdul-Lah was given the name Mohammed meaning "The Praised One"!
Tell me, who ELSE in the Universe is THE PRAISED ONE other than God..

Mohammed has 99 names just like Allah has 99 names and a few of these names overlap

Tell me if these names below belong to Allah OR Mohammed
Al-Jabbar
Al-Hayy
Al-Karim
Al-Muhaymin
Al-Rashid
Al-Mujtaba
Al-Mujtahid
Al-Ra'uf


Mohammed is not Allah but they both share same attributes as above!?

SMH!

mytrugistslog:
Rhapsody of Realities by Pastor Chris. Sun Aug 24 2025

PRAYING WITH GROANINGS AND DEEP SIGHS

Likewise THE SPIRIT ALSO HELPETH OUR INFIRMITIES: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered (Romans 8:26).

When we speak in tongues, we do so by faith. We open our mouths and the Holy Spirit gives us utterance. Here, your spirit is praying in tongues. The Bible says, “For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful” (1 Corinthians 14:14). So, it’s your spirit that prays in tongues even though the utterance is granted to your spirit by the Holy Spirit.

But there's another one that's a higher level of prayer. That’s what is written for us in Romans 8:26 which we read as our opening scripture. The underlined phrase "... the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities..." tells us how the Spirit helps and takes hold together with us in our weakness. He props you up and helps you pray in line with the perfect will of God especially when you face dire situations and are at your wit's end. He takes over and helps you pray correctly.

The AMPC puts it beautifully. It says, “So too the [Holy] Spirit comes to our aid and bears us up in our weakness; for we do not know what prayer to offer nor how to offer it worthily as we ought, but the Spirit Himself goes to meet our supplication and pleads in our behalf with unspeakable yearnings and groanings too deep for utterance.” At this higher level of prayer, the Holy Spirit Himself has taken over, making intercessions with groanings and deep sighs according to the will of God.

You may find yourself crying uncontrollably but not out of pain; keep at it and don’t be troubled. It’s the Holy Spirit praying through you. This is the most effective kind of prayer, and it’s the Spirit’s joy to make it happen for you. So, each time you pray, yield yourself to the Holy Spirit to pray through you, and you’ll be amazed at the impact and the tremendous results in your life and circumstances. Hallelujah!


Prayer / Confession
Dear Father, thank you for the ministry of the Holy Spirit who helps me in prayer. I yield myself completely to Him to intercede through me with groanings and deep sighs, causing your perfect will to be established in my life and in the lives of others. I walk in the light of your Word, always led by the Spirit, in Jesus' Name. Amen.

Further study
1 Corinthians 14:14 AMPC; Jude 1:20; John 14:16-17

1-year bible reading plan
1 Corinthians 9; Psalms 128-134

2-year bible reading plan
Luke 18:28-34; 1 Samuel 11-12

It isn't US or our Spirit that Prays with Groaning BUT the Holy Spirit.

I used to think like you before but read in context and you will see that
Whether we pray in our Understanding or with our spirits, it is the Holy Spirit that repackages the Prayers before God.

Rom 8:26-27:
"Likewise the Spirit also helps our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. And he that searches the hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because he makes intercession for the saints according to the will of God."

Seun
Your bots are so overzealous that even the post of the OP is deleted

SMH.

You need to get feedback from users to help this platform

honesttalk21:
Do you deny skewing your pictured response? Well you deny so many other things too. So it's normal to you.

Turn your phone to read it. It is even bigger.














It seems you are not aware that Nairaland bots read screenshots. The only way workaround is if you rotate the image.

AntiChristian:
Allah has been the name of God from the time Ishmael mixed with the Arabs at the region Abraham took Hagar and her son!

Give us an islamic proof.
Just like they said without proof that Bilkis was a Yoruba queen

AntiChristian:
What evidence do you have your God ever spoke to Jesus when Jesus was alone during most of the time? The question of the spirit needs no answer as its not related to salvation in Islam. We've been given what we need and we don't need to answer your spirit question to enter paradise!

Unlike Islam where there is ZERO evidence for any encounter of Mohammed, there is usually someone else to verify

Mat 17:5:
"While he yet spoke, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear you him."

AntiChristian:
We have told you the companions saw Angel Gabriel as a human and he did came to teach them Islam. Enough with your lies!

Do you mean Mohammed's boyfriend Dihya ibn Khalifah al-Kalbi!?
Did Gabriel ever introduce himself to either Mohammed or anyone else in Islam.

Everything is according to the testimony of one man called Mohammed that cannot be verified

AntiChristian:
I don't know which prophet you are comparing him with here in your Bible. Is it Abraham who slept with his wife's slave or Lot who committed incest or David the murderer and adulterer despite the ancestor of Jesus or Elisha the curser of 42 lads to death?
If such lies had happened I would have had David, Moses and Saul to compare!

Bury you head in shame as Sarah GAVE Abraham her maid to bear a son for her
Gen 16:1-2:
"Now Sarai Abram's wife bore him no children: and she had an handmaid, an Egyptian, whose name was Hagar. And Sarai said to Abram, Behold now, the LORD has restrained me from bearing: I pray you, go in to my maid; it may be that I may obtain children by her. And Abram listened to the voice of Sarai."
For David, God punished him for his sin. God accused David of doing EVIL!
2Sam 12:9-12:
"Why have you despised the commandment of the LORD, to do evil in his sight? you have killed Uriah the Hittite with the sword, and have taken his wife to be your wife, and have slain him with the sword of the children of Ammon. Now therefore the sword shall never depart from your house; because you have despised me, and have taken the wife of Uriah the Hittite to be your wife. Thus said the LORD, Behold, I will raise up evil against you out of your own house, and I will take your wives before your eyes, and give them to your neighbor, and he shall lie with your wives in the sight of this sun. For you did it secretly: but I will do this thing before all Israel, and before the sun."


But is it UNTRUE that Allah claimed he gave Zainab the wife of a faithful Muslim Man called Zaid to Mohammed? Allah even chastised Mohammed for his hypocrisy .
Instead of a Rebuke for this shameful act, Mohammed got from his God encouragements. Allah even canceled ADOPTION so that Mohammed's evil can be lighter.
Read (Surah Al-Ahzab, 33:37)

AntiChristian:
Allah forgive him all his sins. And he also asked for forgiveness everyday! All humans have sinned o!

We know that Allah is Mohammad in disguise.
ANYTHING Mohammed wanted, he claimed it was Allah
Sahih al-Bukhari 4788
Narrated Aisha: I used to look down upon those ladies who had given themselves to Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) and I used to say, "Can a lady give herself (to a man)?" But when Allah revealed: "You (O Muhammad) can postpone (the turn of) whom you will of them (your wives), and you may receive any of them whom you will; and there is no blame on you if you invite one whose turn you have set aside (temporarily).' (33.51) I said (to the Prophet), "I feel that your Lord hastens in fulfilling your wishes and desires."

AntiChristian:
This is the selling point of your Christianity! Fake Miracles! Anyways, Miracles exists you can look for them if you need!

The miracles Authenticated Men sent by God. But if you rubbish them, no problem. Moses, Jesus, and other prophets authenticated by God are Islamically Frauds.

Mohammed with no authentication is the only real prophet!
SMH!

AntiChristian:
At least he is not Allah! And never claimed to be so! Allah gave him the position and he took it. Alhamdulillah!

Qutham Ibn Abdul-Lah was given the name Mohammed
Tell me, who ELSE in the World is THE PRAISED ONE other than God..

Mohammed has 99 names just like Allah has 99 names and a few of these names overlap

Tell me if these names below belong to Allah OR Mohammed
Al-Jabbar
Al-Hayy
Al-Karim
Al-Muhaymin
Al-Rashid
Al-Mujtaba
Al-Mujtahid
Al-Ra'uf


Mohammed is not Allah but they both share same attributes as above!?

SMH!

honesttalk21:
If you truly post, do so in legible manner.

It was posted in a legible manner sir. Remove your Islamic goggles and you will see the things you're escaping from

honesttalk21:
As usual once frustrated that nothing productive is left to say you play the side step in habitual silly manner.
Conversation concluded as you covertly accept the invalidity of your position.

Islam seems to have blocked your comprehension of simple English language. The two responses were posted in part 1 and 2.

Except that you don't have any response other than your vain repetitions defending what is not defendable

AntiChristian:
A Prophet in Islam is an individual whom Allah reveals message and he passes on what was revealed to him.

If he is sent to a people who are disbelievers in Allah then such Prophet is a messenger!

A Prophet who uses the Sharee'ah of a previous Prophet that came before him is only a Prophet!

So Muhammad salallahu alayhi wasalam completely received the Qur'an and a lot of other revelations! So he is a Prophet.

He was sent to all of mankind (believers and disbelievers) and Jinn so he is also a Messenger!

The only problem is that there is not a single EVIDENCE apart from Mohammed that he is a prophet of God

1. Allah is the God of Mohammed's father
2. There is not EVIDENCE God ever spoke directly to Mohammed as other prophets. Till Today, he couldn't answer the basic question of "the Spirit"
3. Only Mohammed had seen Jibril nor even witnessed his presence
4. Character wise, he isn't like any other prophet. Even though Muslims try to paint him righteous.
What do you call a man who used his position to "collect" another Muslim man's wife?
5. Allah seems to justify the sins of Mohammed rather than condemn it, unlike the true God that judges sin even from his prophet
6. There is not one single miracle that authenticate Mohammed as being sent by the God of Creation.
7. Mohammed is the only man I know who shares titles with his God.

I can provide EVIDENCES if you deny any of these above

meobizy:
Na their way. Every time preek scratch them, they demand remuneration from the government. It’s the students I pity the most. Those ones sef don’t pity themselves until final year.

It is the same old agreement that has not been fulfilled by the government o, nothing new

FreeStuffsNG:
In the meantime, deaths from starvation continue to mount – every day.
-Haaretz Magazine


And the world looks on. Smh.
Btw, Haaretz is a leading Isreali newspaper. This is not a report by Al-jazeera o.





[


The award-winning author further stated that "the minorities did not want Biafra. The Igbos under Ojukwu went out of their way to block the creation of minority states. They imposed Biafra on minorities. The Ibos were thus engaged in two wars – fighting against big-time Nigeria and fighting against small-time minorities. The minorities were massacred by the Biafrans. A place in Sagbama in Ijaw land even has a festival celebrating the fact that they survived Biafra, and there are few other places like that in minority lands.”


Who was held for the genocide committed against the Nigerian minority tribes and their innocent children violently murdered and starved in defunct Eastern region of Nigeria before the Nigerian forces liberated them from their tormentors ?

Who was responsible for the violent murder of a defenseless Sir Tafawa Bello (1st PM, Federal Republic of Nigeria) and his innocent wife?

Who was held to account and indicted for violently killing all the leaders of other tribes and regions while freeing/ sparing their own leaders? The fingers are pointing at you.


Smh. Genocide is whataboutism for you.

Tell the IDF to go after Hamas fighters. That's what reasonable people are saying.

Leave defenseless babies and women. Stop killing and starving babies.

It's easier for Hamas to end this from releasing their hostages rather than this propaganda rhetorics.

But, they choose to eat their cakes while having it. Is it difficult releasing their starved hostages?

honesttalk21:
1. Did any hadith say Muhammad died from the poison of Khaybar?
No. The reports say he tasted the poisoned meat, spat it out, later mentioned lingering pain, and in his final illness said: I feel as if my aorta is being cut. That is not the same as the poison killed him. Some scholars counted his death as martyrdom due to lingering effects but martyrdom ≠ death by poison, and it does not fulfill Qur’an 69:44–46 (a conditional warning).


2. Did he say I feel my aorta is cut from that poison?
Yes but that’s figurative speech. Arabs used vivid imagery to describe pain. If an aorta were literally severed, death would be instant, not three years later.


3. The timeline matters.

Khaybar poisoning = year 7 AH.
Death = year 11 AH

Afterward he conquered Makkah, received Qur’an 5:3 (This day I have perfected your religion), delivered the Farewell Sermon, and passed away at 63.

That is mission completed, not mission cut short.


4. He was warned and protected.

Reports say the lamb’s shoulder itself warned him; he spat it out. Others who ate more died quickly; he did not.

Qur’an 5:67: Allah’s promise of protection meant safeguarding the mission, not wrapping him in a bubble against every trial.


5. Prophets are tested, not bubble-wrapped.

Qur’an 3:186: You will surely be tested…

Pain does not negate prophethood. By Christian belief, Jesus was scourged and crucified so pain is not proof of falsehood.


6. Why a painful illness?

Trials elevate rank; prophets endure the hardest tests.

A natural death after revelation was perfected (Q 5:3) is honor, not disgrace.

Jesus was saved from crucifixion; Muhammad pbuh completed his mission and died victorious. Different prophets, different decrees.


Bottom line:

No hadith says “he died from the poison.

His “aorta” remark = idiom, not literal autopsy.

He lived years after Khaybar, perfected the religion, and died naturally.

Qur’an 69:44–46 never applied, because he never lied.

If pain at death disproves a prophet, then Christianity undercuts itself first with the crucifixion.


Repeating “rat poison killed your prophet” won’t rewrite the record. The record shows survival, completion, and honor not failure.

Part TWO

honesttalk21:
1. Did any hadith say Muhammad died from the poison of Khaybar?
No. The reports say he tasted the poisoned meat, spat it out, later mentioned lingering pain, and in his final illness said: I feel as if my aorta is being cut. That is not the same as the poison killed him. Some scholars counted his death as martyrdom due to lingering effects but martyrdom ≠ death by poison, and it does not fulfill Qur’an 69:44–46 (a conditional warning).


2. Did he say I feel my aorta is cut from that poison?
Yes but that’s figurative speech. Arabs used vivid imagery to describe pain. If an aorta were literally severed, death would be instant, not three years later.


3. The timeline matters.

Khaybar poisoning = year 7 AH.
Death = year 11 AH

Afterward he conquered Makkah, received Qur’an 5:3 (This day I have perfected your religion), delivered the Farewell Sermon, and passed away at 63.

That is mission completed, not mission cut short.


4. He was warned and protected.

Reports say the lamb’s shoulder itself warned him; he spat it out. Others who ate more died quickly; he did not.

Qur’an 5:67: Allah’s promise of protection meant safeguarding the mission, not wrapping him in a bubble against every trial.


5. Prophets are tested, not bubble-wrapped.

Qur’an 3:186: You will surely be tested…

Pain does not negate prophethood. By Christian belief, Jesus was scourged and crucified so pain is not proof of falsehood.


6. Why a painful illness?

Trials elevate rank; prophets endure the hardest tests.

A natural death after revelation was perfected (Q 5:3) is honor, not disgrace.

Jesus was saved from crucifixion; Muhammad pbuh completed his mission and died victorious. Different prophets, different decrees.


Bottom line:

No hadith says “he died from the poison.

His “aorta” remark = idiom, not literal autopsy.

He lived years after Khaybar, perfected the religion, and died naturally.

Qur’an 69:44–46 never applied, because he never lied.

If pain at death disproves a prophet, then Christianity undercuts itself first with the crucifixion.


Repeating “rat poison killed your prophet” won’t rewrite the record. The record shows survival, completion, and honor not failure.

Nairaland wouldn't allow me post.

honesttalk21:
Repeating the same slogans won’t turn falsehood into truth. Simply shouting “Israel is not righteous, therefore Isaiah 53 must be Jesus” is not evidence.

The Book of Isaiah itself alternates. Sometimes the servant is Israel (Isaiah 41:8; 44:1–2; 49:3), sometimes an individual. Isaiah 53 belongs to that flow.

The Jewish reading that the servant is Israel collectively fits the context. And let’s be clear; if Israel isn’t sinless, neither were David, Solomon, or Peter. Yet Scripture still calls them righteous because of covenant faithfulness, not sinless perfection.


1. Sacrifice in the Law
Yes, Mosaic Law prescribed animal sacrifices. But forgiveness came only with a contrite heart. Psalm 51:16–17: “The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit, a broken and contrite heart.” Sacrifice was a sign of repentance, not a magical guilt-transfer to an animal. To claim otherwise ignores God’s own words.


2. “Partial Mercy” is a Misrepresentation
In Islam, Allah’s forgiveness is absolute. Wronging another person, however, also requires justice for the victim. That’s not “partial mercy” that’s perfect justice. The oppressor cannot hide behind cheap grace. In Christianity, a murderer or rapist could claim “Jesus paid it all” while the victim is erased. Islam dignifies the oppressed by rewarding their patience and restoring their rights. Mercy and justice work together.


3. Offense Against Man vs. God
Ezekiel 18:20 says: “The soul that sins shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father.” Your system violates this principle by shifting guilt onto another. Islam is consistent: sins against God are between you and Him; sins against people require both God’s pardon and restoration of the victim’s rights.


4. Deut. 18 & John 14–16
Deut. 18:18: the prophet will come from Israel’s “brothers.” The Ishmaelites are Israel’s closest brothers (Gen. 16:12; Deut. 2:4). That fits Muhammad pbuh, not Jesus, who was himself an Israelite.

John 16:13: the Spirit of Truth “will come” to guide into all truth, not speak on his own, and glorify Jesus. This aligns with Muhammad pbuh, who came later, delivering revelation from God and honoring Jesus as Messiah not God. The text points forward, not backward.


5. The “Aorta” Claim
Yes, the Prophet pbuh once said, “I feel as if my aorta is being cut.” That was metaphor, not medicine just as Jeremiah cried, “My heart is torn in me!” (Jer. 4:19). No one thinks his heart literally split open.

If poison truly killed him, why did his companion die within hours while he lived for three more years? Why did he live long enough to conquer Makkah, deliver the Farewell Sermon, and complete the religion (Qur’an 5:3)? That fulfills God’s promise (Qur’an 5:67) to protect him until his mission was complete. And if dying in pain disqualified a prophet, then by your logic, the crucifixion would disqualify Jesus.


Islam’s position is consistent:

Isaiah 53 = Israel as God’s covenant servant, not sinless perfection.

Sacrifice = symbol of repentance, not guilt-transfer.

Allah’s mercy = complete forgiveness + justice for victims.

Deut. 18 & John 16 = fulfilled in Muhammad pbuh, not Jesus.

The “aorta” statement = metaphor, not divine judgment.


Repeating distortions doesn’t make them true. As the Qur’an says:l “Truth stands clear from falsehood” (2:256).

You have repeatedly said these four times now without answering the basic questions I asked you not falsify my rebuttal against you. Until you find a proper rebuttal, repeating these same things one billion times changes nothing. It is just falsehood repeated many many times.

Your prophet eat a poisoned beef
The little he took was enough to do the damage damage: he never recovered. No wonder you cannot answer a direct question but reassert your wish

1. Did your hadith say Mohammed died from the Ailment from eating the poisoned meat at Khayba?
Yes or No!?
2. Did Mohammed himself say that "I feel as if my aorta is being cut from that poison."
Yes or No!?

The questions are straight to the point. But trust Muslims, they will not answer a question because answering them breaks the standard Islamic narrative.

Your argument:
The companions died immediately because they swallowed too much of the poisoned beef
Your prophet tasted of the poisoned beef without swallowing much.

So, any difference is just in the quantity of rat poison swallowed and the time to kill.

Your prophet died by rat poison!

You know the problem:
Can you answer WHY
1. Jibril didn't warn Mohammed that the beef contained rat poison.
2. Even the food did not say "Oh prophet of Allah, rat poison is in me o: don't eat me"?
(Considering the fact that even trees and stones acknowledge Mohammed as the prophet of Allah)
3. Allah saved Jesus according to Islam BUT allowed the Greatest prophet in the universe to die very SLOWLY through rat poison? Why?
4. How come Allah did not relieve the Greatest prophet in the universe from the AGONY and PAIN from the Poison for THREE straight years? Does Allah hate Mohammed this much?


Again, I am sure you would say everything except answering my questions

You are just repeating yourself as if the repetition will magically make the untrue become teue

honesttalk21:
1. Is Israel the righteous servant?
No. The Tanakh calls Israel stubborn, rebellious, and adulterous (Isaiah 1:4; Jer. 3:6; Ezek. 16). That’s why they went into exile. The “servant” in Isaiah shifts: sometimes Israel, sometimes the remnant, sometimes a prophetic figure. But sinful Israel as a “sinless substitute for the nations” makes no sense.

Meaning that IF Israel is NOT the Righteous servant, then Israel was not being referred to in Isaiah 53!

honesttalk21:
2. Did God put our sins on Israel?
No. Neither the Tanakh nor Qur’an says this. Jewish reading: Israel suffers because of nations’ sins (persecution), not instead of them. Making Israel the universal sin-bearer turns the nation into a savior which no faith tradition teaches consistently.

But the sins were put upon the Righteous Servant who when have established is not Israel!

honesttalk21:
3. Why Temple sacrifices?
They symbolized atonement and purification, but were never magical transfers of guilt. God said: “The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit” (Psalm 51:16-17). Hosea 6:6: “I desire mercy, not sacrifice.” Sacrifices pointed to repentance, not substitution.

Was this an ordinance prescribed for the forgiveness of sins for the Jews by God?
If it is, the sacrifice is their ransom!

honesttalk21:
4. Does Allah only forgive partially?
False. Qur’an 39:53: “Allah forgives all sins.” Forgiveness is total. But Islam balances justice. If you wrong someone, their rights aren’t erased. Victims are repaid in the Hereafter. Your system erases the victim while “washing” the sinner.

As long as the forgiven has to pay for his sin, his forgiveness is partial.
As long as the one who received mercy still has to pay, the mercy is Partial!

honesttalk21:
5. Justice for crimes like rape.
“Unrape” is impossible but justice means punishment + compensation, not undoing history. Courts don’t “unrape”; they punish and repay. Likewise, God in Islam ensures the oppressed are not forgotten. In your system, the victim is erased while the sinner walks free. How is this mutually balanced?

God says offence against anyone is offence against God. On your behalf God thus publishes sin.
As long as some offences like rape cannot be undone, it is impossible to restore that which was lost.
Moreover, only in Islam is a person rewarded for being mistreated.

honesttalk21:
6. Deut. 18:18 & John 16:13.
Deut. 18:18: Prophet like Moses from Israel’s “brethren” = Ishmaelites → Muhammad pbuh, not Jesus.

John 16:13: Spirit of Truth guides, speaks not from himself, glorifies Jesus and Muhammad pbuh fits. Holy Spirit was already active before Jesus left.

#Are these verses also referencing Mohammed?
Deut 18:2, Deut 18:7,
#Is it UNTRUE that Mohammed himself says his Aorta was being dealt with because of the rat poison a Jewish woman put in his food!
#According to John 14:17
-Did Mohammed live with the Disciples of Jesus?
-Did the Disciples of Jesus know anyone called Mohammed?

Repeating falsehood a billion times will not magically transform it into the truth.

I know you wish this was Mohammed BUT he isn't, please find another argument

honesttalk21:
Israel is not righteous and cannot bear the world’s sins.
God never laid our sins on Israel.
Sacrifices = symbols, not substitution.
Allah’s forgiveness is total + just.
Islam protects victims; your system erases them.
Muhammad pbuh fulfills Deut. 18:18 & John 16:13 more consistently than Jesus in Christian readings.

Repeating falsehood wouldn't make it turn into the truth even if you repeat yourself a billion times.
This was why you couldn't answer the question I posed from the verses.

honesttalk21:
The Qur’an’s verse about the aorta is a warning, not history. The Prophet pbuh survived the poison at Khaybar and lived years afterward, completing his mission.
Far from disproving his Prophethood, his survival after Khaybar shows Allah’s protection until his mission was complete.
His words about the aorta were figurative for pain, not a medical report. If dying in pain disqualifies a prophet, then what do you say about Jesus being beaten, humiliated, and crucified according to your own belief?”

1. Did your hadith say Mohammed died from the Ailment from eating the poisoned meat at Khayba?
Yes or No!?
2. Did Mohammed himself say that "I feel as if my aorta is being cut from that poison."
Yes or No!?




Muslims will begin to lie in the face of overwhelming EVIDENCE against what their Qur'an, Hadiths or Tafsirs say. Notice how you have to follow the narrative of your scholars even when they contradict either Allah, Mohammed, the Qur'an, the Hadiths or Tafsirs
SMH!

Honesttalk21

Another hadith to show that Allah cut off Mohammed's Aorta

Sunan Abi Dawud 4513
Narrated Umm Mubashshir: She said to the Prophet during the sickness from which he died: "What do you think about your illness, Apostle of Allah?" He said: "I do not think about my illness except that (the poisoned sheep of which he had eaten with you at Khaibar). This is the time when it cut off my aorta."


This is the testimony of Mohammed himself isn't it?
According to this hadith
1. Did Mohammed die from this poisoning?
2. Was Mohammed's Aorta cut according to Mohammed?

honesttalk21:
1. Is Israel a righteous servant?
No. Israel as a nation is not righteous. The Tanakh repeatedly describes Israel as stubborn, rebellious, unfaithful, and adulterous (Isaiah 1:4; Jeremiah 3:6; Ezekiel 16). That’s why Israel was sent into exile. In Isaiah, the “servant” imagery shifts, sometimes it’s the nation, sometimes the faithful remnant, and sometimes an individual prophetic figure. But the idea that sinful Israel is the “sinless substitute for the nations” doesn’t fit. This is why Christians interpret the “Servant” of Isaiah 53 not as the sinful nation, but as a righteous individual set apart.

If Israel is not a righteous servant, then this is
A proof that Isaiah 53 is not about Israel!
Is Jesus a righteous servant?

honesttalk21:
2. Did God put your sins on Israel as a Muslim?
No. Neither the Tanakh nor the Qur’an says “the sins of Muslims (or nations) were placed on Israel.” In Jewish interpretation, Israel suffers because of the nations’ sins (persecution, oppression), not in place of the nations’ sins. Big difference. The nations thought Israel was cursed, but God ultimately vindicates Israel. So the claim that “Israel bore your sins” collapses. It makes Israel into a savior, which Jews, Christians, and Muslims don’t actually believe.

If Israel did not carry your sins then this is
A proof that Isaiah 53 is not about Israel!
Did Jesus carry the sins of the world according to the Bible?

honesttalk21:
3. Why did Jews sacrifice in the Temple?
Because the Law of Moses required sacrifices as signs of atonement, purification, and covenant renewal. The blood symbolized that sin leads to death, and that humans need repentance and cleansing. But notice: sacrifice was never a magical transfer of guilt. God Himself said, “The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit; a broken and contrite heart, O God, You will not despise” (Psalm 51:16–17). Hosea 6:6 adds: “I desire mercy, not sacrifice.” The prophets constantly rebuked Israel for offering sacrifices while living in sin proving the rituals themselves didn’t save. They pointed beyond themselves to repentance and obedience.
So sacrifice = symbol, not substitution. Otherwise, repentance would be irrelevant.

You have said it @highlighted in yellow.
The sacrificial animal becomes a ransom for their judgement as Israelites

honesttalk21:
4. You claim Allah only forgives partially.
That’s a strawman. In Islam, Allah forgives completely when He forgives. Qur’an 39:53 says: “Do not despair of the mercy of Allah. Indeed, Allah forgives all sins.” What you confuse is the balance between mercy and justice. If someone wrongs another, forgiveness doesn’t mean the victim’s rights are erased. The oppressor remains accountable unless the victim pardons him. That’s not “partial mercy” that’s mercy plus justice. In your system, God forgives the sinner but leaves the victim with nothing but scars. In Islam, the victim’s suffering is acknowledged and repaid in the Hereafter. Which is more just?

True!
Allah's forgiveness is partial because the forgiven must still pay for their sin according to you.
And
As long as the recipient of mercy must still pay for their Sins, Allah's mercy is Partial.

honesttalk21:
5. Your “compensation for rape” challenge.
You argue, “Unrape is impossible therefore justice is impossible.” That’s wrong. Justice isn’t undoing history; it’s repayment and rebalancing. Even in human courts, no judge “unrapes” a victim. Instead, the criminal is punished and compensation is awarded. That’s human justice. Likewise, God’s justice in Islam punishes or forgives according to His wisdom, but always ensures that the oppressed are not forgotten. You mock this as “being rewarded for victimization,” but in your system, the victim is erased while the sinner walks away clean. Which system is actually “silly”?

Justice is returning EXACTLY what was stolen, killed or destroyed in one or several folds. There is no justice for the offended without full restoration according to what was deprived him/her.

Nigerians shout, "Justice for Mobad"!
Can justice for Mobad be done other than being Mobad back to Life and heal the Trauma caused everyone involved!?

honesttalk21:
6. Deut. 18:18 and John 16:13.
Deut. 18:18: God promises a prophet like Moses from among the brethren of Israel meaning the Ishmaelites. Christians claim this is Jesus, but Jesus was an Israelite, not from Israel’s “brethren.” Muhammad pbuh fits a law-giving prophet, raised from the descendants of Ishmael.

The scripture is clear on this:
1. The person is from amongst the Israelites: Moses made it clear
Deu 18:15:
"The LORD your God will raise up to you a Prophet from the middle of you, of your brothers, like to me; to him you shall listen;"

Are these verses referencing Mohammed?
Deut 18:2, Deut 18:7,

2. Mohammed's Aorta was cut for speaking lies about God
Deu 18:20:
"But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die."

Quran 69:44-47
Had he (Prophet Muhammad) faked some sayings in Our name, We would have certainly seized him by the right hand, and then severed his aorta (life-artery), and none of you could have withheld Us from doing so.

Mohammed himself says his Aorta was being dealt with because of the rat poison a Jewish woman put in his food!

Is this untrue?

3. Jesus is the prophet spoken about by Moses in Deut 18:18
Acts 3:20-23:
"And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached to you: Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began. For Moses truly said to the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up to you of your brothers, like to me; him shall you hear in all things whatever he shall say to you. And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people."

Find me just one Qur'an verse that says Mohammed was the prophet Moses spoke about?

honesttalk21:
John 16:13: Jesus promises the Spirit of Truth, who will guide into all truth, not speak on his own, and glorify Jesus. This aligns perfectly with Muhammad pbuh, who delivered revelation (not his own words), revealed truth, and honored Jesus as Messiah but not God. Christians say this is the Holy Spirit, but the Holy Spirit was already active before but the Holy Spirit was already active before Jesus’ departure (Luke 1:15; Luke 3:22).

The same Book of John says Who the Spirit of Truth is:
Is Mohammad the Holy Spirit (the Spirit of Truth)
John 14:17:
"He is the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you."

Did Mohammed live with the Disciples of Jesus?
Did the Disciples of Jesus know anyone called Mohammed?

Do you concur that Jesus sent Mohammed to the world? John 15:26

honesttalk21:
As for the “aorta” claim, it’s baseless. The Prophet pbuh died naturally after completing his mission. And the Qur’an was revealed in Arabic not because God “only speaks Arabic,” but because revelation comes in the language of its people its message, however, is universal.

Mohammed certainly definitely died from the poison which affected his Aorta

Sahih al-Bukhari 4428
Narrated ‘Aisha: The Prophet in his illness in which he died, used to say, "O ‘Aisha! I still feel the pain caused by the food I ate at Khaibar, and at this time, I feel as if my aorta is being cut from that poison."

honesttalk21:
Essentially, Israel is not righteous so it cannot be the universal sin-bearer.

God never placed the sins of Muslims (or anyone) on Israel.

Good, Isaiah 53 couldn't have been about Israel then. Thank you!

honesttalk21:
Sacrifice was symbolic, not substitution.

But this was the ordinance given by God for the forgiveness of the children of Israel!
Thank you!

honesttalk21:
Allah forgives completely, but justice ensures victims aren’t erased. Forgiveness from Allah is contingent upon the wronged party's rights being restored or their forgiveness being sought in this life.

Your system erases victims while pretending to show mercy, contradicting Ezekiel 18:20.

Until you can negate the logic:
Any forgiveness that requires the forgiven to pay back is not Total.
Any Mercy that requires the guilty to pay back is only partial.

honesttalk21:
Muhammad pbuh fulfills Deut. 18:18 and John 16:13 better than the Christian interpretation of Jesus does.

By splitting the moon!?
Did Jesus send down Mohammed?
Does the Apostles of Jesus know Mohammed?
Does Mohammed live in the Apostles of Jesus?

How you manage to successfully convince yourself of these errors is disturbing at best!

Dogalmighty17:
Israel is proudly carrying on with genocide. Let them continue. At least the world will rest from their endless cries of victimhood. They have become modern day Nazis.

Israel should assume that Hamas is not holding any Israeli as hostage and move on with their lives abi!?

honesttalk21:
If injustice cannot be undone, then your cross collapses too. Crucifying an innocent doesn’t “unrape the victim” or restore what was destroyed. Justice can only stand if God holds the sinner accountable and that is exactly what Islam teaches: “Every soul earns only against itself, and no bearer of burdens will bear the burden of another” (Qur’an 6:164, Ezek. 18:20).

This meaning that you are not listening.
1. Even God known that injustice cannot be undone
2. God therefore says crime unto humanity is crime unto Him
3. The punishment of crime unto God is Eternity in Hell fires
4. No one gets rewarded for being unjustly treated
5. Whether in heaven or hell everyone will receive his wages for whatever he has done.
6. Since ALL humanity is guilty of sin and thus candidates of hell, God took up the punishment for whoever cannot afford to carry his burden in hell
7. This is a Gift of God for whoever will receive this Gift

So, as a Muslim, you will bear your own burden in Hell for you have sinned against the Almighty God in thought, Deeds and Inactions to Him directly or Indirectly.

I beg you to think as you CANNOT bear your burden of Sin for Eternity in Hell

honesttalk21:
You ask if Israel is righteous or if Israel bears Muslims’ sins. Isaiah himself answers: “Israel, My servant” (Isa. 41:8; 44:1–2; 49:3). Israel suffers at the hands of nations, not because guilt was transferred, but because nations oppressed them. Isaiah 53 is the nations confessing: “We thought him cursed, but he was pierced because of our transgressions.” That is not substitution it is vindication. God shows Israel’s suffering was unjust, and that revelation brings recognition and healing.

My question was simple and direct. I didn't ask if Israel was a servant of God, I asked to you as a Muslim
1. Is Israel a RIGHTEOUS servant? Yes or No!
2. Did God put your sin on Israel as a Muslim? Yes or No!

honesttalk21:
And Ezekiel 18 still stands: “The soul that sins shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father.” If guilt cannot pass from father to son, how can it leap onto Jesus? Unless you say God contradicts Himself.

Even sacrifice in Torah was never guilt transfer. Hosea 6:6: “I desire mercy, not sacrifice.” Psalm 51: “You do not delight in sacrifice… the sacrifices of God are a broken spirit.” Sacrifices symbolized repentance, not substitution.

Tell me why the Jews made sacrifice for sin in the Temple then according to the law of Moses?

honesttalk21:
So Islam is consistent: God forgives sins against Him through repentance, and He compensates victims for sins against them. Christianity is inconsistent; it denies injustice can be undone yet claims it is erased by punishing the innocent.

You have shown that Allah CANNOT forgive TOTALLY!
You have also shown that Allah's mercy is Partial!
Another prove of a Deity who speaks only Arabic and makes claims he cannot back up with action.

Just tell me how a raped victim can be compensated?

Only in Islam is a person rewarded just because he was victimised.
SMH!!

honesttalk21:
And no, I’m not a Jew—because Jews rejected Muhammad pbuh, the final prophet foretold (Deut. 18:18, John 16:13). Islam alone preserves the pure monotheism of Abraham, Moses, and Jesus.

What a silly argument! How you managed to convince yourself that a corrupted book contains Mohammed is unbelievable.
1. Deut 18:18 no wonder, Allah cut the Aorta of your prophet for speaking lies
2. John 16:13 so, Jesus sent Mohammed to this world?

They think that the more they insist on a lie, the more it becomes the truth. SMH!!

We are still looking for Mohammed's name in the Torah and Injeel till now!

honesttalk21:
1. Justice in Islam vs. Christianity
You mock Islam because Allah does not “undo” a crime. But your Bible doesn’t claim God undoes crimes either — it says He “remembers them no more” (Jer. 31:34, Heb. 10:17). That means He no longer holds them against the sinner. Islam says the same, but with an added dimension: no victim is erased. Every oppressor must repay, and every victim is compensated, even if the oppressor repents. That’s not partial forgiveness; that’s comprehensive justice.

Meanwhile, your system allows the guilty to walk free at the expense of the innocent (Jesus), and leaves the victim uncompensated. Which is really “partial”?

Even you agree that Injustice can NEVER be UNDONE, it can only be punished. It is an exercise in futility for you to think that rewarding the offended is justice for them. There is nothing like compensation if the evil and it's resultant consequences can never be rewritten. Meaning that justice in Islam is a fluke.

Also, Allah does partial forgiveness and partial mercy: so much for a God!

If Jesus was a man, you have a point BUT he isn't a son of Adam sir. This is Why the Word became Human somas to Represent us .

The key to Salvation is that it is FREE for the sinner even though impossible to pay by non other than God Himself.

honesttalk21:
2. Isaiah 53 in Context
Isaiah repeatedly calls Israel God’s “servant”: 41:8–9, 44:1–2, 49:3. To read “servant” as Israel is not far-fetched — it is the prophet’s own language.

The servant can be sinful and still chosen for God’s mission. Israel is called “God’s son” (Hos. 11:1) and His “witness” (Isa. 43:10), even while guilty of sin. So the objection “Israel sinned, therefore not the servant” collapses.

“Bearing sins” in Hebrew often means enduring the consequences of others’ evil, not transferring guilt (cf. Lam. 5:7). Israel bore exile, persecution, and oppression caused by the nations’ iniquity — not their guilt.

You are just repeating yourself.
Is Israel a Righteous Nation?
Yes or No!
Does Israel beat the Sin of Muslims?
Yes or No!

honesttalk21:
3. Ezekiel 18 Destroys Substitution
God says plainly: “The soul that sins shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father” (Ezek. 18:20). That is divine law. If guilt cannot pass from father to son, how can it pass from humanity to Jesus? If Isaiah 53 meant substitution, it would directly contradict Ezekiel. The Jewish/Islamic reading avoids contradiction; the Christian reading creates it.

Another repetition In have dealt with meaning that you chosen to be ignorant.
I can't help you with that!

honesttalk21:
4. Your Own Bible Supports Compensation
You sneer that Islam says victims are “rewarded” for being wronged. But your own scripture says: “Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord” (Rom. 12:19). Repayment is exactly compensation. If you mock that, you mock Paul as well.

Boohoo!
It is our God that is Repaying NOT the Righteous or the Sinner. Didn't you read my explanation!?
Please go back and read!
LOL!

honesttalk21:
5. The Choice
Jewish/Islamic reading: Israel, God’s servant, suffers because of the nations, is vindicated, and God remains consistent with His law of justice.

Christian reading: One man dies for all, guilt is transferred, and God violates His own word in Ezekiel.


You can’t have it both ways. Either accept scripture as it stands, or admit you’re following Paul’s theology, not the Torah and Prophets.

If the Jews were correct, why did you choose to be a Muslim and not a Jew?
If the Jews were correct, why did you choose to follow Allah and not YHWH?

Islam is a compilation of Rituals without Spirituality!



Let me ask you a basic spiritual Question:
1. Who prescribed the ordinance of sacrifice of animals for the sin of Israel?
2. Why?

honesttalk21:
If your daughter were raped, would you accept God simply saying I will remember his sins no more’ (Jeremiah 31:34)? Is that justice or erasing her pain?

Which is better
1. For God to say, the one who violated a person violated Me and say
Rom 12:19:
"Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place to wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, said the Lord."

honesttalk21:
In Islam, no injustice is erased. The Qur’an says Whoever does an atom’s weight of wrong shall see it (99:7–. On Judgment Day, the rapist’s good deeds are taken and given to the victim. If his good deeds run out, her sins are placed on him, and he is cast into Hell. That is accountability.

Justice is to unrape the raped: which is an impossibility.

What good deeds will atone for a violent rape and the attendant secondary consequences?

I burnt down your house but decided daily to weed your yard. Is it commensurate?

Islam and spiritual ignorance!

honesttalk21:
But in your system, Hitler could repent at his deathbed, escape punishment, and enter Paradise while his millions of victims worry about their own sins.That’s not justice. That’s moral bankruptcy.

Yes, Hitler will face his sins the question is has he been forgiven or not.
AND
His victims will also face their own sins forgiven or not.

It is impossible for Hitler to undo any evil he has done to others.

The Power and Mercy of YHWH Forgive and Restore even the worst of sinners TOTALLY!
BUT
Allah's mercy and forgiveness is PARTIAL!

This had been your argument all along!

honesttalk21:
You quote Isaiah 53, but Ezekiel 18:20 is crystal clear that The soul that sins shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father. Even your own scripture rejects substitutionary atonement. No innocent man bears the guilt of the guilty.

Repeating falsehood a million times doesn't change the truth

honesttalk21:
Islam unites mercy with justice. Every soul pays what it owes, and every victim receives their due. Christianity divides them calling the punishment of the innocent love. So I ask you which system truly reflects the justice of God?

Islam shows that Allah is incapable of forgiving Totally and his mercy is only partial!

honesttalk21:
1. If God is just, why punish the innocent Jesus instead of the guilty sinner?

Because God invented the ordinance of sacrifice and ransom for another life.
Thus it please the Lord to lay on Christ the iniquity of us all!

honesttalk21:
2. If all sins are equal, is lying really the same as genocide in God’s eyes?

Read my explanation of the difference between the consequence of SIN and RIGHTEOUSNESS distinct from rewards for Deeds good or bad.

honesttalk21:
3. If Hitler repented on his deathbed, does he get Paradise while his victims get Hell? Is that justice?

People only go to hell for their Sins and not what others did to them.
At least you agreed that a raped person cannot be unraped!

honesttalk21:
4. Ezekiel 18:20 says: “The soul that sins shall die.” Why do you teach the opposite?

Because this is about judgement on earth not in the afterlife.

honesttalk21:
5. If God can “forget sins” (Jer. 31:34), where is justice for the victim?

Untill you can prove that it is possible to unrape a raped victim, your question is faulty.
Justice for the victim is that God himself take the offence/crime personally.

Again:
Rom 12:19:
"Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place to wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, said the Lord."

honesttalk21:
6. Does forgiveness without repayment not erase the oppressed?

Every man will pay for his sins and no one gets rewarded for being offended!

This is what you claim Islam is teaching: that some people will get rewarded for being oppressed!

See how silly it sounds!

honesttalk21:
7. How can sin be “transferred” when the Bible itself says: “No bearer of burdens shall bear the burden of another” (Qur’an 6:164, cf. Ezek. 18:20)?

Sacrifice for sin is EVIDENCE that Ransom has been paid. Otherwise the sinner bears the full weight of the consequence of Sin.

The wages of Sin is ETERNITY in hell

honesttalk21:
8. Why does your system make God less just than human courts, which distinguish between theft and murder?

The fact that Allah cannot forgive TOTALLY and his Mercy is PARTIAL is not my fault.

It is impossible to Totally undo any crime against humanity. My Gods MERCY is Total and His Forgiveness is Total.

honesttalk21:
9. If salvation only requires faith, why does Jesus speak of judgment “according to works” in Matthew 16:27?

1. Salvation is by Faith alone. Faith is proved by the fruit it produces.
2. After Salvation is Reward for Faithfulness and Deeds

honesttalk21:
10. Did Israel suffer exile for the sins of nations (Isaiah 53), or did guilt magically transfer from sinner to savior?

Is Israel a Righteous Nation!?

No sir, Israel did not suffer for the sins of any nation. Israel suffered exiles for their own Sin.

Except you concur that Israel is a RIGHTEOUS nation. Is Israel a Righteous Nation according to Islam?

honesttalk21:
1. Who is the Servant?
Isaiah himself answers this. In chapters 41–49, God repeatedly calls Israel, my servant, (Isaiah 41:8, 44:1, 49:3). So when Isaiah 53 says my servant, the natural reading is Israel, not an individual messiah.

Since you think Israel is the servant I all of the book of Isaiah, then explain
1. Isaiah 49:3 whixh also mentions "My Servant, Israel," but then speaks of the servant being sent to bring Jacob (Israel) back to God, indicating a difference between the servant and the nation.

Is Israel bringing Israel back to God?

2. The servant is portrayed as righteous, faithful, and ultimately justifying many by bearing their iniquities (Isaiah 53).

Is Israel a Righteous Nation?


So, we have two servants in the Book of Isaiah, One is Israel and the Other is the Messiah!

honesttalk21:
2. Substituting Israel fits the text.
Israel’s history matches perfectly. Beaten, exiled, humiliated, accused of being cursed yet surviving. Their suffering was not just from their own sins, but from the hatred and violence of empires. Yet through Israel’s survival, nations came to know the one God. This matches Isaiah 52–54, where Israel is the central theme.

If substitution of Israel fits the text, do you concur that in Israel is the deliverance of Muslim nations?

Then why do Islam hate the Jews this much except that Allah is definitely not YHWH!
You can have it both ways!

So, you affirm that God wasn't punishing Israel but it was because of Muslims nations that Israel is going through hardship!

You affirm that Israel as a nation carries your sorrows as Muslim nations!

You also affirm that God has laid the sins of the Muslim nations on Israel!

These are consequences of your claims.

honesttalk21:
3. Who are the we and our?
Isaiah 52:15 sets the stage. So shall he sprinkle many nations; kings shall shut their mouths at him. The we in Isaiah 53 is the Gentile nations speaking. They admit that they had despised Israel as cursed, but later realize that Israel was suffering unjustly. They (the nations) were guilty, and Israel bore the consequences of their oppression.

The prophet Isaiah was SPEAKING and including himself in the narrative sir. The gentile nations also represent Islamic nations.

Thus you affirm that your hate for Israel is unjustified error from your part , Allah's part and your prophets part.

honesttalk21:
4. What does bearing sins mean?
It does not mean guilt transfer. The Hebrew word often means enduring consequences. Israel bore the nations’ sins in the sense that they suffered exile, persecution, and oppression because of other people’s iniquity. Just like Lamentations 5 says Israel bore the sins of ancestors not that guilt moved, but that consequences fell on them.

It is not up to you to redefine what bearing sin means. This is not the Qur'an or Hadith that need to be filtered through the eyes of your scholars to make any sense.

Israel bears the SIN of Muslim nations you must affirm.

If this is true, why would Jews be used as ransom for Muslims from Hell?

honesttalk21:
5. Why this interpretation matters?
This way, Isaiah 53 fits with Ezekiel 18:20.The soul that sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father. Everyone is accountable for their own sins; guilt is never transferred. That’s why Jews and Muslims reject the Christian leap to substitutionary atonement. The servant suffers because of others, yes, but no one’s guilt magically shifts.

You.mean why re-interpretations matter to you?

Other prophets concur with the plain interpretation of the text

Zech 12:10:
"And I will pour on the house of David, and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look on me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourns for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn."

honesttalk21:
Isaiah 53 doesn’t teach substitution. It teaches vindication: Israel suffered unjustly at the hands of nations, but God will raise them up and prove them innocent. That fits the context, the Hebrew, and the rest of scripture without breaking Ezekiel 18:20.

Unfortunately, this is NOT Islam, thus it is NOT up to you to say what Isaiah 53 doesn't teach.

If what you claim is remotely true, then Islam is in serious Error for hating the Nation of Israel unjustly as one of the heathen nations.

honesttalk21:
Perhaps you consider the Jewish Reading of Isaiah 53 where:

Isaiah 53 is not about an isolated “suffering Messiah” carrying away sins. In classical Jewish commentary, the “Servant” is Israel itself; the nation, described throughout Isaiah as “My servant” (cf. Isaiah 41:8, 44:21, 49:3).

The Servant (Israel) suffers at the hands of the nations. The nations look at Israel’s suffering and wrongly assume it must be because of Israel’s sins, when in fact it is because of their own violence and oppression.

Thus, Israel suffers because of the sins of the nations, but not in place of the nations. No guilt is transferred. Rather, Israel is vindicated by God, showing that their suffering was unjust.

This fits with Ezekiel 18 where

Ezekiel teaches that every individual bears his or her own guilt: “The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father…” (Ezek. 18:20).

There is no contradiction. Isaiah 53 is speaking poetically of collective historical suffering (exile, persecution) borne by the Jewish people due to the hostility of surrounding nations. Ezekiel speaks of personal accountability before God.

Together, they form a coherent principle: nations may experience collective consequences, but ultimate judgment remains personal.

The Christian reading of Isaiah 53 as “substitutionary atonement” is inconsistent with God’s justice as clearly stated in Ezekiel.

Instead, Isaiah 53 is understood as metaphorical, national, or about a prophet suffering unjustly but not literally carrying others’ sins.

1. You agree with Jewish understanding negating Jesus as the Messiah
2. According to Isaiah 53
Since you seem to agree with the Jews understanding, may you please answer these questions

Isaiah 53:4-6
"Surely He Israel has borne our griefs
And carried our sorrows;
Yet we esteemed Him Israel stricken,
Smitten by God, and afflicted.
But He Israel was wounded for our transgressions,
He Israel was bruised for our iniquities;
The chastisement for our peace was upon Him Israel,
And by His Israel's stripes we are healed.
All we like sheep have gone astray;
We have turned, every one, to his own way;
And the Lord has laid on Him Israel the iniquity of us all."


1. Read the above passage with ISRAEL substituted for the Messiah and answer truthfully the questions below.
2. Does this revised passage make sense to you?
3. Who are the We, Us and Our, referenced in this passage ?
4. Are you affirming that your sins were laid upon Israel?

honesttalk21:
You keep sneering about “houris being taken away and given to polytheists in Hell,” as if Islamic justice is some crude barter system. Let’s clear that up right now: houris have nothing to do with justice. They are rewards of Paradise, not tokens to be traded or deducted. No believer ever loses them, and they’re certainly not “handed out” to people who chose Hell for themselves. That whole mockery collapses under its own absurdity.

Now, to your real questions:

1. What if the wronged person is a polytheist in Hell, and the oppressor is a Muslim who repented?

Islam separates between the rights owed to God and the rights owed to people. Repentance wipes out the sin between a person and Allah, but it doesn’t erase the harm done to another human being. That debt remains. On the Day of Judgment, Allah Himself will compensate the wronged non-Muslim in a way only He can, so that no one can say they were wronged twice. The Prophet pbuh said: “Do not wrong one another, for wrongs will be repaid on the Day of Resurrection” (Muslim). Allah is Al-‘Adl The Just. No one escapes.

2. What if both oppressor and victim are polytheists in Hell?
The same principle applies. Their punishments are not identical. The victim’s burden is eased, the oppressor’s is made heavier. That is how divine justice work, every wrong shifts the balance. As the Qur’an says: “We will set up the scales of justice on the Day of Resurrection, and no soul will be wronged in the least” (21:47).

And your mockery: “Can a man unrape his victim?” Of course not. But here’s the difference. In your theology, the rapist can “accept Jesus” on his deathbed and escape all punishment, while the victim gets nothing. In Islam, that can’t happen. The crime is never erased at the expense of the victim. Justice reaches them either by direct compensation from Allah or by transferring from the oppressor’s own record. The victim is not forgotten.

So, you admit that a rapist cannot unrape his victim yet you prescribe a contradiction of rewards given for being wronged. A wronged person gets rewarded for being victimised!
This is the summary of Islamic judgement you have presented here.


All you have clearly displayed here is that Allah CANNOT forgive totally or he doesn't know the meaning of Mercy and Forgiveness


Contrast with the True God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob
Jer 31:34:
"And they shall teach no more every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, said the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more."

Isaiah 43:25
"I, even I, am he who blots out your transgressions... and remembers your sins no more."

Isaiah 1:18
"Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow."

Hebrews 10:17
"Their sins and lawless acts I will remember no more."

Jeremiah 31:34
"For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more."

honesttalk21:
Then you claim “all sins are equal.” But your own Bible undercuts you.

In John 19:11 Jesus says or is alleged to say “The one who handed me over to you is guilty of a greater sin.”

Matthew 11:24 – “It will be more tolerable for Sodom on the day of judgment than for you.”


So which is it? Equal, or greater/lesser? Even Paul speaks of “wages of sin” differently depending on context. The truth is obvious: not all sins weigh the same. Islam is consistent on this. Some sins are heavier, but all are judged fairly, and mercy is available.

The above showing that you don't read at all things I wrote just a tad ago.

Please go back and read my previous post where I said:
You are ignorant of the fact that there is a difference between SIN/RIGHTEOUSNESS and REWARD?
1. SIN takes you to Hell
2. RIGHTEOUSNESS takes you to Paradise

Those in Paradise do not receive the same REWARD, they are Rewarded according to their FAITHFULNESS in their Use of RESOURCES for God's People.

Those in Hell do not receive the same REWARD, they are Rewarded according to their FAITHLESSNESS in their Use of RESOURCES for God's People.

honesttalk21:
And Isaiah 53? You read it as God dumping guilt onto the innocent. But that directly contradicts the Torah and the Prophets.
Ezekiel 18:20: “The soul that sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son.”
If that principle is from God Himself, then your doctrine of substitution collapses. God doesn’t contradict His own justice.

Even though you wouldn't listen,
Ezekiel wasn't even referring to the judgment in Paradise or Hell, it was referring to God punishing the children for the sins of their fathers as God used to in the past

Here are key scriptures where God speaks about punishing the children for the sins of their fathers:

Exodus 20:5 God says He is a jealous God who "visits the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me."

Exodus 34:7 - God is described as forgiving iniquity but also not leaving the guilty unpunished, "visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children and the children’s children to the third and fourth generation."

BUT
Deuteronomy 24:16 - This verse clarifies personal responsibility: "Fathers shall not be put to death for their children, nor children for their fathers; each is to die for his own sin." It emphasizes that individuals are accountable for their own sins, not punished simply because of their ancestors' sins

And your favourite verse
Ezekiel 18:20 - "The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son." This strongly affirms individual accountability for sin and refutes the idea of automatic punishment of children for their parents' sins

Secondly,
Even if you want to insist these verses are about judgement in Hell, Jesus is not anyone's SON!
Thus, all your repetitions are Vail noise.

1. God is JUST, thus He punishes SIN
2. The Punishment for Sin is ETERNITY in Hell
3. God's LOVE for man without VIOLATING his Being JUST applied MERCY through a RANSOM.
4. JESUS is that Ransom

But for you Muslims, Christians and Jews are your own ransom

honesttalk21:
Finally, your taunt; “Does Allah forgive partially or fully?” The answer is fully. But full forgiveness doesn’t mean trampling victims. Forgiveness clears a sinner’s account with God, but debts to other humans remain. Those debts are settled through justice either by transferring deeds or by Allah Himself compensating the wronged. That isn’t partial forgiveness, it’s perfect balance; mercy without injustice.

Hear yourself,
Allah forgives TOTALLY BUT you are still punished!
But it is still total forgiveness!

No, Allah's forgiveness is PARTIAL!

You are totally forgiven BUT you must chop some cane! And you defend this illogicality!?

honesttalk21:
So no, Islam does not “break down.” What actually breaks down is your system where a murderer can die with a whispered confession, walk straight into Heaven, and leave his victims eternally uncompensated. That isn’t mercy. That’s an insult to justice.

Islam breaks down ALWAYS with reasoning.
You just said that it is impossible to unrape a victim, what justice are you speaking about?

That is why, every offence against man is primarily an SIN against God. Every man deals with his own sin against his neighbour and crime against you is handled by God.

The logic wouldn't make sense to you.
God is saying that every crime you do against your fellow human is done to Him and God will extract maximum punishment for that BUT you, bother yourself with what you do against others.

Unlike Islam that tries to distribute Houri for people of hell (sorry it's because I don't know other rewards to be given to Muslims other than boreholes in numbers). And you never gave me any specifics!

honesttalk21:
You forget mockingly asking “Will Allah reduce your houris and give them to the wronged polytheist in Hell?” As if Islamic justice is some crude barter system where women are swapped like currency. Let’s get this straight; houris have nothing to do with justice or compensation. They are a reward of Paradise, symbols of eternal joy for those whom Allah admits into His mercy. They are never “deducted,” never “handed over,” and certainly not gifted to people who already chose Hell through their own disbelief. That caricature says more about your mockery than it does about Islam.

If the Houri are so special that they cannot be given to the wronged person (even though this is not true) what will be given to the wronged person out of his blessings. Let us assume that the wronged person is a polytheist?

honesttalk21:
The Prophet pbuh explained justice very clearly: “On the Day of Judgment, the wronged will be compensated from the good deeds of the oppressor. If those good deeds run out, the victim’s sins are cast upon him” (Bukhar 2449). That’s not barter. That’s moral accountability. You wronged someone? You pay with your own deeds, with your own record. The victim gains, you lose. Justice served.

You are just repeating yourself.
1. Now the wronged person is a polytheist and in hell, the offender is a repentant Muslim, what will be given to the Polytheist in Hello from the Muslim.
2. The wronged person is a Polytheist and in hell and the offender is also a polytheist in hell, what will be given to the offended person?

When Islam is questioned, it breaks down irrevocably!

honesttalk21:
Now compare that to what you yourself admitted: Hitler could repent on his deathbed, “accept Jesus,” and walk into Paradise, while his millions of victims “worry about their own sins.” In your theology, the victims receive nothing from the oppressor. Their blood, their pain, their cries all ignored. And the criminal? He strolls into eternal bliss because he outsourced his punishment onto Jesus. Tell me: where in that is justice?

All Sins are against God!
Thus, you cause pain to your neighbour, God says it is Him you have caused pain.

I ask you, is it possible for any man to fully restore the damage he caused to another?
As an example,
Can a man unrape his victim?

Islam is naive in so many spiritual aspects.

honesttalk21:
You also claim “all sins are equal.” But your own Bible disagrees. Jesus himself says in John 19:11: “The one who handed me over to you is guilty of a greater sin.” In Matthew 11:23-24, he warns that Sodom will be judged more lightly than Capernaum. Even Paul, in Romans 6:23, speaks of “wages of sin” in different contexts. If all sin is equal, why does your own scripture rank them? Clearly, a lie is not the same as genocide. Even you don’t believe your own analogy.

Khai!
You are ignorant of the fact that there is a difference between SIN/RIGHTEOUSNESS and REWARD?
1. SIN takes you to Hell
2. RIGHTEOUSNESS takes you to Paradise

Those in Paradise do not receive the same REWARD, they are Rewarded according to their FAITHFULNESS in their Use of RESOURCES for God's People.

Those in Hell do not receive the same REWARD, they are Rewarded according to their FAITHLESSNESS in their Use of RESOURCES for God's People.


This is what Jesus was speaking about sir.

Thus, there is no BIG sin nor SMALL sin because SIN irrespective of its SIZE takes you to Hell Fire .

How come you are so ignorant of this simple spiritual fact.

Will Muslims be rewarded equally in Paradise?

honesttalk21:
And then there’s Ezekiel 18:20 the verse you keep dodging: “The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.” How does atonement survive that? If Jesus was innocent, how does he bear the guilt of murderers and thieves? If God is just, why does He shift blame from the criminal to someone else entirely? Your doctrine says God’s mercy required killing His own Son. Scripture says the opposite: each man bears his own burden.

Bear your own burden for eternity in Hell please!
It is your choice,

This is what God's solution is

Isaiah 53:4-6
"Surely He has borne our griefs
And carried our sorrows;
Yet we esteemed Him stricken,
Smitten by God, and afflicted.
But He was wounded for our transgressions,
He was bruised for our iniquities;
The chastisement for our peace was upon Him,
And by His stripes we are healed.
All we like sheep have gone astray;
We have turned, every one, to his own way;
And the Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all."

SMH!!

honesttalk21:
The Qur’an affirms the exact same truth: “No bearer of burdens will bear the burden of another” (6:164). Every soul earns what it earns, every soul pays for what it did. But unlike your system, Islam doesn’t lock the gates of mercy. Repent sincerely, make amends, seek forgiveness and God may forgive you directly. No human sacrifice required. No injustice against the innocent.

Then Reject the Solution of God and choose to bear your own burden for eternity in Hell

It is simple!

John 3:16-18:
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believes on him is not condemned: but he that believes not is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."

This is why the Gospel is Good News, that you will not carry the burden of your sin for eternity in Hell because God has carried it for you and thus you can go free

honesttalk21:
So no Allah does not “reduce your houris.” That’s childish mockery, not theology. In Islam, justice is exact, proportional, and personal. Paradise is reward. Hell is punishment. Victims’ rights are never erased.

So tell me again, how the crime of raping and violating a woman can be UNDONE?

Also, tell me specifically what a Polytheist raped woman will get in hell from her repentant Muslim rapist?

Also, what if the rapist was also a Polytheist, what reward will be extracted from him and given to the violated woman.

Islam always breaks down with small scrutiny!

honesttalk21:
So I’ll ask you plainly which vision of God is greater and better?
A God who holds every soul accountable, yet forgives directly out of mercy?
Or a God who declares all sins the same, condemns all to eternal Hell, and then pardons the guilty only by punishing the innocent?

Refer to my answers in previous posts.

honesttalk21:
Mercy and accountability are not contradictions; they are complements. Accountability preserves justice, while mercy prevents justice from becoming cruelty. Together they reflect a God who is both just and compassionate.

Your claim:
Allah forgives but still punishes you as a Muslim for your sin.

This had been your argument all along.


So, In ask , When Allah claims to forgive,
Does Allah forgive partially or fully?


You won't answer the questions as usual!

honesttalk21:
Your example collapses under its own weight. You imagine a Muslim who rapes a polytheist woman, repents, and then simply walks into Paradise untouched? But that is not Islam. The Qur’an is explicit: “Whoever does wrong will be recompensed for it, and they will not find besides Allah a protector or helper” (4:123). The Prophet pbuh taught that on the Day of Judgment every victim will be repaid in full; if the oppressor has good deeds, they are given to the victim; if his good deeds run out, the victim’s sins are cast upon him until justice is done (Muslim 2581).

That applies whether the victim is Muslim or non-Muslim. So no, nothing is withdrawn from “houri” and handed to her; rather, her due is taken from the very deeds and record of the oppressor. That is real, proportionate justice. Accountability tied directly to the crime.

So, even the repentant Muslim rapist will go to hell if I take you at your words!?

So, what then is the forgiveness by mercy of Allah ton this Muslim repentant rapist?


Please listen to yourself the islamic justice
nothing is withdrawn from “houri” and handed to her; rather, her due is taken from the very deeds and record of the oppressor

It's just a record that is removed and handed over to the Polytheist woman in hell!?
Hell must be truely comfortable for a positive RECORD to make sense of what somebody did against us and not the positives we did for others.
SMH!

honesttalk21:
Now contrast this with your system. You say sin is all the same (rape, theft, murder, lying) equal in God’s eyes, all deserving of eternal Hell. That is not justice; that is absurdity.

Even human courts know the difference between stealing bread and killing a child. Yet your view makes God less just than human judges. Worse still, you say an innocent man takes the punishment instead of the criminal, in direct violation of the Bible itself: “The soul that sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son; the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself” (Ezekiel 18:20).

By your logic, Hitler could “accept Jesus” on his deathbed and go free while his victims stay in Hell. Where is the justice in that?

The Power of God washes away the greatest of sin and injustice: It doesn't take God more power to cleanse a sinner from violent dreadful sins than the less inconsequential ones.
Moreover, in Christianity, ALL sins are primarily against GOD and not the victim of the crime because the victim is the image of God.
You keep throwing about Ezekiel 18:20 as if you comprehend it's meaning: Is Jesus the son of any man?

Isaiah 53:4-6
"Surely He has borne our griefs
And carried our sorrows;
Yet we esteemed Him stricken,
Smitten by God, and afflicted.
But He was wounded for our transgressions,
He was bruised for our iniquities;
The chastisement for our peace was upon Him,
And by His stripes we are healed.
All we like sheep have gone astray;
We have turned, every one, to his own way;
And the Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all."
SMH!!

Yes, Hitler can repent at his death bed and God will forgive him. His victims should worry about their own sin against God and ask for mercy too.

honesttalk21:
Islam distinguishes between sins not out of “ignorance” but out of wisdom: a lie is not equal to genocide, and God’s justice reflects that. And yes, Islam teaches mercy but mercy after accountability, not mercy that cancels justice. The Qur’an makes it clear: “No bearer of burdens will bear the burden of another” (6:164). Each soul answers for itself. That is true mercy and true justice, not the chaos of your system where guilt is transferable and infinite punishment is unleashed for finite sins.

Islam doesn't understand the concept of SIN period!
Which one of these two will make your drinking cup unusable: Excrement in small quantities and excrement in large quantities inside it!

Sin it that which pollutes island make us unfit for God.

honesttalk21:
So the real question is this: which is more merciful; a God who holds oppressors accountable to their victims and offers forgiveness with repentance, or a God who declares all sins equal, condemns all to eternal Hell, and then pardons the guilty by punishing the innocent?

I have answered this question almost thrice now
1. You have been making this claim without evidence
Show me a hadith or Quran that says that on the day of judgment Allah will hold Repentant Muslim who have been forgiven (by the Blackstone) accountable for their crime against humanity!

I am waiting.

You don't know the meaning of Mercy sir.
Mercy and accountability doesn't go together.

Mercy is not giving me the judgment I deserve.
Mercy is freeing a guilty person from the consequences of his misdeeds

Except, your understanding is that Allah forgives Partially



The Greater God is One who simultaneously
1. Executes JUSTICE in FULL because a sinner cannot go unpunished AND
2. Because of His LOVE for the Guilty, shows Mercy by FREEING him TOTALLY from the Consequence of his Misdeeds against man and God

Can Allah fully execute JUSTICE while fully showing Mercy to the sinner

honesttalk21:
You keep quoting hadith on mutʿah as though Islam stands or falls on scattered narrations. It doesn’t. The Qur’an is the foundation, and it describes marriage in weighty, sacred terms: “And how could you take it back while you have gone in unto each other and they have taken from you a solemn covenant” (4:21). That’s the language of permanence and responsibility, not a temporary contract you walk away from. Another verse puts it beautifully: “And among His signs is that He created for you spouses from among yourselves that you may find tranquility in them, and He placed between you affection and mercy” (30:21). Marriage, then, is about stability, love, mercy. Mutʿah doesn’t fit that vision, which is exactly why the Prophet pbuh put an end to it and why Imam Ali, even when he had full authority, never brought it back. If it were divine law forever, his silence would be inexplicable.

Then there’s the other favorite line of attack: “those your right hands possess.” Critics twist it into proof that Islam promoted prostitution. But that’s distortion. The phrase referred to captives of war a grim but universal reality in antiquity. The Qur’an didn’t invent it; it restrained it. Look at how it regulates: “Whoever among you cannot afford to marry free believing women, then he may marry from those whom your right hands possess… marry them with the permission of their people and give them their due compensation” (4:25). Or again: “Do not compel your slave-girls into prostitution if they desire chastity” (24:33). Freeing slaves is praised outright as righteousness: “The freeing of a slave” (90:13). Far from endorsing exploitation, the Qur’an sets a trajectory away from it—toward emancipation and dignity.

Now compare that with the Bible. Deuteronomy 21:10–14 tells Israelite soldiers they may take captive women as wives after war, and if they tire of them, just let them go. Numbers 31:18 goes further: “Keep alive for yourselves all the young girls who have not known man.” Leviticus 25:44–46 gives open license: you may own slaves as property, even pass them down to your children. No restriction, no trajectory of abolition. Christians brush this aside as “context,” yet turn around and condemn the Qur’an, which actually imposed restrictions and pointed toward reform. That is a glaring double standard.

And here’s the bigger irony: Christians accuse Islam of moral looseness, while their central doctrine is looser than anything in the Qur’an. Atonement teaches that the guilty sinner escapes his due punishment because Jesus bears it instead. But Ezekiel 18:20 flatly contradicts this: “The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father the guilt of the son; the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.” That’s justice in its pure form. The Qur’an echoes the same principle: “No bearer of burdens will bear the burden of another” (6:164). In Islam, mercy exists, yes but never at the expense of accountability. Each person stands for their own deeds.

So which vision really lines up with reason and justice? A Qur’an that treats marriage as covenant, restrains sexual exploitation, and keeps responsibility personal? Or a theology that excuses slavery without reform and shifts guilt onto the innocent? If you condemn Islam here, honesty demands you condemn the Bible even more.

Here again you have your response part TWO

honesttalk21:
You keep quoting hadith on mutʿah as though Islam stands or falls on scattered narrations. It doesn’t. The Qur’an is the foundation, and it describes marriage in weighty, sacred terms: “And how could you take it back while you have gone in unto each other and they have taken from you a solemn covenant” (4:21). That’s the language of permanence and responsibility, not a temporary contract you walk away from. Another verse puts it beautifully: “And among His signs is that He created for you spouses from among yourselves that you may find tranquility in them, and He placed between you affection and mercy” (30:21). Marriage, then, is about stability, love, mercy. Mutʿah doesn’t fit that vision, which is exactly why the Prophet pbuh put an end to it and why Imam Ali, even when he had full authority, never brought it back. If it were divine law forever, his silence would be inexplicable.

Then there’s the other favorite line of attack: “those your right hands possess.” Critics twist it into proof that Islam promoted prostitution. But that’s distortion. The phrase referred to captives of war a grim but universal reality in antiquity. The Qur’an didn’t invent it; it restrained it. Look at how it regulates: “Whoever among you cannot afford to marry free believing women, then he may marry from those whom your right hands possess… marry them with the permission of their people and give them their due compensation” (4:25). Or again: “Do not compel your slave-girls into prostitution if they desire chastity” (24:33). Freeing slaves is praised outright as righteousness: “The freeing of a slave” (90:13). Far from endorsing exploitation, the Qur’an sets a trajectory away from it—toward emancipation and dignity.

Now compare that with the Bible. Deuteronomy 21:10–14 tells Israelite soldiers they may take captive women as wives after war, and if they tire of them, just let them go. Numbers 31:18 goes further: “Keep alive for yourselves all the young girls who have not known man.” Leviticus 25:44–46 gives open license: you may own slaves as property, even pass them down to your children. No restriction, no trajectory of abolition. Christians brush this aside as “context,” yet turn around and condemn the Qur’an, which actually imposed restrictions and pointed toward reform. That is a glaring double standard.

And here’s the bigger irony: Christians accuse Islam of moral looseness, while their central doctrine is looser than anything in the Qur’an. Atonement teaches that the guilty sinner escapes his due punishment because Jesus bears it instead. But Ezekiel 18:20 flatly contradicts this: “The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father the guilt of the son; the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.” That’s justice in its pure form. The Qur’an echoes the same principle: “No bearer of burdens will bear the burden of another” (6:164). In Islam, mercy exists, yes but never at the expense of accountability. Each person stands for their own deeds.

So which vision really lines up with reason and justice? A Qur’an that treats marriage as covenant, restrains sexual exploitation, and keeps responsibility personal? Or a theology that excuses slavery without reform and shifts guilt onto the innocent? If you condemn Islam here, honesty demands you condemn the Bible even more.

Here again you have your response