₦airaland Forum

honesttalk21:
Even the hadith you mentioned (“He was above the clouds… above water”) is an akhbārī (reporting) about unseen realities before creation. It doesn’t suggest any limitations. When we talk about “air and water” in a pre-creation context, it’s really just a way to help human minds grasp these concepts.

Exposing the Trinity

You claim the Trinity is a “description of YHWH”:

But you won’t find anywhere in the Torah or the Prophets that God is described as “three persons in one essence.”

Even Jesus reiterates the Shema (Mark 12:29).

The concept of the Trinity emerged after the biblical texts were written, sparking debates for centuries at Nicaea, Constantinople, and Chalcedon.

So how can you accuse Islam of creating monotheism when the Trinity itself is a concept that was unknown to Abraham, Moses, David, or even Jesus?

Re-reading the Hadith You Cited (Sunan Ibn Majah 182)

The hadith states: “He was above the clouds… then He created His Throne above the water.”

This is a metaphorical description, not a limitation of space. Before creation, ideas like “up” and “down,” “air” and “water” don’t fit into our physical understanding.

The Prophet pbuh often conveyed profound truths in ways that a Bedouin could relate to. For instance, when he described Paradise, he said: “Therein is what no eye has seen, no ear has heard, and no heart has imagined.”

So, no, this doesn’t mean Allah is “trapped in a location.” It signifies that before creation, there was only Allah. Then He brought everything into existence from nothing.

The Real Issue

You accuse Muhammad pbuh of “not understanding God.” Yet:

He reinstated the God of Abraham: pure oneness.

He eliminated the idols of Mecca: no sons, no partners, no incarnations.

He taught that Allah was and there was nothing else.” (Bukhari, Kitab al-Tawḥid).

Can you say the same for the Trinity, which blends Greek philosophy with Biblical monotheism?

honesttalk21:
Because of your blatant disregard of your brother butterfly777 topic and to quench your habitual tread derailment by gish-gallop



Your words show a mix of passion and uncertainty. It seems you’re not just asking questions; you’re challenging Islam directly. So, let’s respond to your claims not with hostility, but with the profound understanding of monotheism and ʿknowledge.

Clarifying the Issues in Your Argument

Category Mistake

You’re equating the Qur’anic God (Allah) with a being that’s “like creation,” limited by space and time. This is exactly what tawhid, monotheism,stands against.

You take a single hadith narration, with its own context, and turn it into a universal truth. That’s not how Muslims or scholars interpret texts.

False Contrast

You suggest that Christianity embraces transcendence while Islam denies it. In reality, it’s often the opposite.

Christianity presents God as incarnate in human form, subject to hunger, death, and humiliation. That’s a likeness to creation.

Islam teaches: “Laysa kamithlihi shay’” Nothing is like Him (Qur’an 42:11).

Begging the Question

You assume the Trinity is “the true description of YHWH” without providing evidence. The Hebrew Bible, particularly the Shema (Hear O Israel, the Lord your God is One – Deut. 6:4), emphasizes absolute oneness without any persons or trinity. You’ve brought Greek metaphysics into Jewish monotheism and then claimed that Islam “created” a new form of monotheism. In truth, Islam restored the original.

What Islam Teaches about Allah

Allah is One (tawhid al-dhat)

He is not divided, not compounded, and certainly not three persons.

His Oneness is absolute, not just a matter of numerical addition.

Allah is Transcendent (tanzih)

“Vision does not encompass Him, but He encompasses all vision.” (Qur’an 6:103)

He is not confined by space. He created both time and place.

Allah is Both Near and Exalted

“He is with you wherever you are.” (Qur’an 57:4)

“The Most Merciful rose over the Throne.” (Qur’an 20:5)

Simply means He is exalted beyond comprehension, yet His knowledge and power encompass everything.

Allah is not Contained

Nothing can contain Him, neither the heavens nor the earth.

honesttalk21:
Even the hadith you mentioned (“He was above the clouds… above water”) is an akhbārī (reporting) about unseen realities before creation. It doesn’t suggest any limitations. When we talk about “air and water” in a pre-creation context, it’s really just a way to help human minds grasp these concepts.

Exposing the Trinity

You claim the Trinity is a “description of YHWH”:

But you won’t find anywhere in the Torah or the Prophets that God is described as “three persons in one essence.”

Even Jesus reiterates the Shema (Mark 12:29).

The concept of the Trinity emerged after the biblical texts were written, sparking debates for centuries at Nicaea, Constantinople, and Chalcedon.

So how can you accuse Islam of creating monotheism when the Trinity itself is a concept that was unknown to Abraham, Moses, David, or even Jesus?

Re-reading the Hadith You Cited (Sunan Ibn Majah 182)

The hadith states: “He was above the clouds… then He created His Throne above the water.”

This is a metaphorical description, not a limitation of space. Before creation, ideas like “up” and “down,” “air” and “water” don’t fit into our physical understanding.

The Prophet pbuh often conveyed profound truths in ways that a Bedouin could relate to. For instance, when he described Paradise, he said: “Therein is what no eye has seen, no ear has heard, and no heart has imagined.”

So, no, this doesn’t mean Allah is “trapped in a location.” It signifies that before creation, there was only Allah. Then He brought everything into existence from nothing.

The Real Issue

You accuse Muhammad pbuh of “not understanding God.” Yet:

He reinstated the God of Abraham: pure oneness.

He eliminated the idols of Mecca: no sons, no partners, no incarnations.

He taught that Allah was and there was nothing else.” (Bukhari, Kitab al-Tawḥid).

Can you say the same for the Trinity, which blends Greek philosophy with Biblical monotheism?

honesttalk21:
Even in discussions about legal matters, some critics take issue with Islam’s divorce rules, labeling them as harsh. However, the stipulation that a husband who hastily divorces his wife three times cannot immediately take her back is actually a protective measure, not an act of cruelty. It ensures that marriage isn’t treated like a game played out of anger and regret. The Prophet pbuh spoke out against the practice of declaring a triple divorce all at once, emphasizing that this law is meant to prevent abuse rather than create injustice.

honesttalk21:
On another note, the Christian assertion that Jesus is the Word made flesh ultimately falls apart under scrutiny. If “Word of God” refers to divine essence, then figures like Adam, angels, and even the universe itself created by God’s command would also share in that divinity. If miracles are what establish godhood, then we’d have to consider Moses and Elijah as gods too. The phrase “Son of God” poses its own contradictions; if taken literally, it clashes with scripture, and if seen as metaphorical, it loses its impact. The Qur’an brings back a sense of balance by recognizing Jesus as the Messiah, a servant, a prophet, and a sign but never as God.

honesttalk21:
If indeed you are honest, present your findings on the Aramaic and Hebrew of John 1 and show that the phrase translating to bi-idhniLlah isn't in the Arabic of the Qur'an verses of Jesus 's miracles.

honesttalk21:
....
In Islam, Jesus is revered as a prophet, a sign, and a servant of Allah – all while maintaining the purity of God’s oneness. This is the essence of balance: to love and follow Jesus without elevating him to the status of God.

honesttalk21:
Even the idea that God’s love necessitated Him becoming flesh is a bit off the mark. In Islam, it’s taught that Allah’s mercy extends to everyone. He cares for both believers and non-believers, the thankful and the ungrateful alike. However, His special love is reserved for those who choose to follow His guidance. Love doesn’t imply that God has to diminish Himself to connect with humanity; rather, it signifies that He elevates humanity through revelation and forgiveness.

honesttalk21:
So, who exactly was Jesus? He was a Word from Allah, but not the eternal Word. He was a spirit created by Allah, distinct from Allah Himself. He was the Messiah, endowed with miracles, yet never considered divine. He stated, “I am the servant of Allah.” The Qur’an cautions: “They have disbelieved who say, ‘Allah is the Messiah, son of Mary.’ Say: Who has power to prevent Allah if He willed to destroy the Messiah, son of Mary, his mother, and everyone on earth?” (Qur’an 5:17).

honesttalk21:
In Islam, Jesus is revered as a prophet, a sign, and a servant of Allah – all while maintaining the purity of God’s oneness. This is the essence of balance: to love and follow Jesus without elevating him to the status of God.

honesttalk21:
Some Christians often reference John 1:1 and Colossians 1:16 to support the idea that Jesus is the eternal Word of God, the one through whom everything came into being. However, if we take a closer look, the reality becomes much clearer.

The Greek term "Logos" simply translates to word, speech, or expression. Interestingly, the Qur’an also refers to Jesus as "Kalimatun minhu," which means a Word from Allah, but that doesn’t imply he is God. It signifies that he was created by God’s command, “Be.” Allah Himself states: “Indeed, the likeness of Jesus with Allah is as the likeness of Adam. He created him from dust, then said to him: Be, and he was” (Qur’an 3:59). If being a “Word of God” equates to divinity, then Adam, who had no father or mother, would hold an even higher status.

honesttalk21:
When it comes to Jesus’ miracles, they don’t necessarily indicate divinity. The Qur’an recounts how he fashioned a bird from clay and breathed life into it, but it emphasizes that this was done bi idhnillāh “by Allah’s permission.” Do you say this isn't in the Arabic of the Qur'an or claim it's absence in your misconstrued versions?
Moses parted the sea, Abraham was saved from fire, and Muhammad pbuh split the moon yet none of them were gods. Miracles serve as demonstrations of God’s power, not evidence of godhood.

honesttalk21:
Regarding the virgin birth, the true testament wasn’t in some hidden biological miracle but in the baby Jesus speaking from the cradle, declaring: “Indeed, I am the servant of Allah. He has given me the Scripture and made me a prophet” (Qur’an 19:30). Right from the start, Jesus proclaimed his servitude to God, not his equality with Him.

Tell us it is a lie that the rarity of Jesus isn't that he had no father but he has a mother. He was commanded into being to serve as a sign to the Israelites

honesttalk21:
Christians also refer to Jesus as the Son of God. However, the Bible itself refers to Adam as the son of God, Israel as God’s firstborn son, and the righteous as sons of God. Clearly, this is metaphorical, indicating a closeness to God rather than literal divinity. The Qur’an clarifies this confusion: “Say: He is Allah, One. Allah, the Eternal. He neither begets nor is begotten” (Qur’an 112:1–3). Asking who fathered Jesus is akin to asking who fathered Adam – both were created by God without human fathers.

honesttalk21:
The term al-Masīḥ comes from the root م-س-ح (m-s-ḥ), which encompasses several connected meanings:
To wipe, anoint, or touch (for example, مسح رأسه means he wiped over his head).
To travel widely or move quickly across the earth.

According to Lisan al-Arab, the root مسح

المَسْحُ Al-Masihu refers to passing a hand over something, wiping away, cleaning, or anointing.

مَسَحَه Masha means to touch or stroke with the hand, whether to remove dirt, sweat, or to offer a blessing.

تَمَسَّحَ Tamassaha means to wipe oneself with something or to seek a blessing (tabarruk).

This is used in Qur’an 5:6, which instructs to wipe over your heads.

Therefore, al-Masih can be understood as “the one who has received a divine anointing/touch” or “the one who wipes away affliction.”

The significance of "al-Masih" for Isa ibn Maryam is explained by scholars as follows:

He was blessed with an anointing.

He would heal the sick with his touch, by Allah’s permission.

He was a traveler who roamed the land with asceticism.

honesttalk21:
His title stands in contrast to al-Masih al-Dajjal, who is described as “wiped/obliterated in one eye,” symbolizing deformity and falsehood.

honesttalk21:
You throw your scripture away at this point? Hahaha! Isn't the common evangelical apology not For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that whosoever believeth in him ..... John 3:16. Please before Jesus did God hate his creation?

Without God becoming man he is neither just or loving? Please what bunkum are you saying?

You are also saying that justice is when the obedient and deliberately arrogantly disobedient are giving the same reward. What a skewed sense of justice.

honesttalk21:
Your pathetic example on divorce is pure garbage. Do you not see the point that it's an essential warning being Divorce is one of the most hated things in the sight of Allah so letting the intending divorcees know that once divorced it is not easily undone so it isn't reduced to a thing of play.

honesttalk21:
Why did you strike out Jesus said before John 6... Is there a problem?

Does the Bible say God is father to believers in a literal sense as you play out the case of Jesus?
Well to you life is all play anyway.

honesttalk21:
Of course you always try to twist things if not outright mischievously misquote. Did your scripture not tell you God created things by command?

And God said, ‘Let there be light,’ and there was light.” (Genesis 1:3)

“And God said, ‘Let the earth bring forth vegetation...’ and it was so.” (Genesis 1:11)

“By the word of the Lord the heavens were made, and by the breath of his mouth all their host.” (Psalm 33:6)

“For he spoke, and it came to be; he commanded, and it stood firm.” (Psalm 33:9)

honesttalk21:
Look to your Psalm 33:6 is this breath not what all humanity share? Tell us it is a lie that the rarity of Jesus isn't that he had no father but he has a mother. He was commanded into being to serve as a sign to the Israelites who persist in stubbornness like you after numerous prophets and signs. So you think Jesus was more difficult than Adam who was moulded from clay and didn't have a father or mother?

honesttalk21:
The spirit in Islam is something from Allah. Tell me one person that knows everything about it. Do you feign to know?

honesttalk21:
Of course you apologists refer to this story and ignore by Allah's leave. Why? Please explain why the verse doesn't say by himself?
Then if you hold unnecessarily strong to it tell us why this narration is not in your Bible?

Why did Jesus require Allah to support him with the holy spirit and not support himself with this by himself? Do you not see how what you shared in Quran 5:110 doesn't help you?

The Messiah, Isa son of Maryam, was only a messenger of Allah, His Word that He bestowed upon Maryam, and a spirit from Him.Qur’an 4:171

Notice two things:

Allah calls him al-Masih, but immediately limits his station: “only a messenger.”

Every miracle he did is stressed as bi-idhniLlāh (by Allah’s leave) never by his own autonomous power.

No other prophet in the Qur’an holds this title, as it represents a truly unique position. Isa was born without a father, spoke while still in the cradle, healed people with just a touch, raised the dead by the will of Allah, and is prophesied to return as a sign of the Hour.

NeoWanZaeed:
See ehn.. this is 21st century

Have 100% knowledge about a subject you want to argue or enlighten people about.

For that same reason, talking to you will be like speaking to a wall.

End of discussion.

honesttalk21:
Your assertion that Kalimatullah, or the word of Allah, implies that Jesus is divine is simply not accurate. All of creation comes from Allah’s command, "Kun." If this were to suggest divinity, then Adam would also have to be considered divine, as mentioned in the Quran [3:47, 59].

In this context, "word" is used metaphorically to represent Allah’s creative command.

honesttalk21:
Additionally, the phrase "Ruhun minhu," meaning spirit from Allah, does not imply that Jesus is part of God. Adam also received the “spirit from Allah” [Quran 15:29], which signifies life and honor, rather than divinity.

The term “from Him” (minhu) in Arabic conveys a sense of honor (similar to baytullāh, or “House of Allah”), rather than indicating a literal essence.

honesttalk21:
His miracles do not establish his divinity. Other prophets performed miracles as well, all by Allah’s permission. The Quran consistently states that Isa acted bi-idhnillah (“by Allah’s leave”) [Quran 3:49].

honesttalk21:
Being referred to as the Messiah does not make him God. The term “Messiah” (al-Masīḥ) is a title that means “anointed one,” indicating a blessed and chosen servant, not a divine being.

honesttalk21:
Why would God need to become man to guide humanity? The need for food, sleep, and the limitations of being human [Quran 5:75] contradict the idea of God’s perfection and self-sufficiency. Were those who were rightly guided before the time of Jesus misguided?

honesttalk21:
Did Prophet Muhammad pbuh act to oppose the earlier prophets of God? Not at all. He was the finality of the same message from God to mankind from the time of Adam on earth. Then where and who did he copy from? Do you have any proof of just repeat the general unsubstantiated rhetoric?

NeoWanZaeed:
You are extremely ignorant of what Islam is. Extremely seriously ignorant. Continue bathing in your ignorance.

Muslims don't pray to black stone or use it as an intercession while making dua.

NeoWanZaeed:
Allah is not jesus lol. Allah is the creator, he's not creation. Allah has absolutely nothing in common with any of his creations. Allah is not human..

Laughing.. Christians are so funny. Their god left heaven, turn to human to be killed by his creation while he's also the son of himself
Laughing

NeoWanZaeed:
Laughing.. in 21st century. You are still talking without knowledge or proof lol
No wonder you believe a human being is your god and he's 3 in 1.. laise mario lol

butterfly777:
No one can submit to the Creator except through Jesus Christ. Jesus is the only way to God.

NeoWanZaeed:
Laughing.. in 21st century. You are still talking without knowledge or proof lol
No wonder you believe a human being is your god and he's 3 in 1.. laise mario lol

Kaliningrad:
https://static01.nyt.com/images/2022/09/14/world/14ukraine-zelensky1/14ukraine-zelensky1-mobileMasterAt3x.jpg
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/content/dam/briefs/2025/08/13/TELEMMGLPICT000408748488_17550922754790_trans_NvBQzQNjv4BqpVlberWd9EgFPZtcLiMQf_4Xpit_DMGvdp2n7FDd82k.jpeg

WriteerNg:
I know you're pained. The US should stick to fighting ragtag Houthis please.

The US have never in its history fought a country as large and powerful as Ukraine.

You should be ashamed.

AntiChristian:
Islam is the religion all Prophets of Allah practised from Adam, Noah till the last of them Muhammad.
Noah, Abraham, Moses, Aaron, and all others were Muslims!

AntiChristian:
This doesn't change the above fact that Islam was what was sent to him. The laws may vary!

AntiChristian:
The Qur'an was recited during the Prophet's lifetime though not compiled in one script. It was compiled in one script less than two years after the Prophet died.

AntiChristian:
This still does not negate the fact that the only religion acceptable to Allah our creator is Islam!

NeoWanZaeed:
Laughing Out Loud..


Man made religion.. and it's the only religion that's not worshipping a supernatural human being dubbed as GOD.


Laughing..

On a logical level, you are too wrong


Laughing

Kaliningrad:
From "Russia must be defeated" to them begging for ceasefire.

And even offering Russia minerals to end war. Lol.

Them no dey use gra gra follow Russia. Na you go beg las las.

Ask Hitler & Napolean.

Israel5:
Please (even though I know my appeal with fall on deaf ears too numerous to count in this forum), approach this issue with logic and without prejudice to the people involved.

My wife and I are duly blessed with a son who is in his basic 5 now. Also, we decided to get the daughter of one of my cousin to stay with us. She is one of 7 children. So I wanted to help raise a CHIMAMANDA.

As my rule, every child of same age under my room attends the same school and calls us Dad & Mum. The school part didn't quite seat well with my wife, who had a different opinion, but I prevailed anyway. Because na me dey pay school fees.

The girl is a year older than my son, but due to the level of education at the village before she came over, we made her be in the same class as my son. She met my son in primary 2. Now they are both in basic 5.

A shocker happened: This girl keeps coming up in the class, while my son keeps running away from the top. We've tried extra lessons, even tried changing schools. Now it looks as if the girl is better suited for school than my boy. She reads, spells and memorizes things too marvellous. I bought a dictionary cos of that.

I even buy gifts for her (for coming top) more than I do for my boy, to make him sit up, but my pikin nor send me o. Guy use cry & Woman power make me buy am bicycle. 😁

I would think he's being a spoilt boy, who believes daddy & mommy is there, I don't really know. But I am hopeful.

Now, my major issue is my heavily pregnant wife. She wants the girl to be changed/enrolled at a different school. In her defence, she wants her to be available to help her take care of things. The kid's school close by 3pm. She suggest government school that close earlier. I see sense in what she said but I feel like I'll be unfair to this young girl.

When I tried to have a healthy debate on the idea. Na so madam start to dey talk plenty tins wey I nor fit type.
I have accepted to do her wish from September for peace.

Please, do you see another way I could avoid problems?

Is she right to have asked that I changed the girl's school just because she needs help around the house & her business?

maisauki:
Should they have excluded them 🤔

Never forget, if you trace history far enough, each 'indigenous tribe/race' moved there

QED

KobeMan:
Thank You for this, Please do you have any Reliable Herbal fertility treatment or contact That works? I'll really appreciate it.

dawnomike:
I understand how you feel bro... But, first calm down.
It is not as bad as it sounds... You both just have to determine to work through this challenges together.
First and foremost, go and register for a comprehensive HMO (choose a package that covers major surgery). This will greatly reduce the medical bills and make things easier for both of you.
Discuss with the gynaecologist on the best way to proceed with the necessary medications and surgery then go for it.

Your wife needs you now more than ever before... You can reach out for moral support at anytime and any day by just mentioning me in your comments.

I wish you all the best and the strength to weather the storm!!!

maisauki:
Source
https://x.com/World_Insights1/status/1953749197574090873?s=19[/quote]USA – 430 languages!

The statistics wrong as it includes all immigrants and not just the local speaker!

Bubbyboo2:
https://www.vanguardngr.com/2025/08/why-pdp-agreed-to-wikes-demands-sources/

Daejumong:
I can’t understand how a man would be wearing boxers outside the bedroom. This guy needs a good management team around him. The problem many African pastors have is that people are afraid to correct them believing they are higher beings who are answerable only to God. This creates a great problem for the pastor who can easily get self conceited and lose it yet people will keep hailing. Pastors must be answerable to elders in the church and the congregation. That is the way to keep the system healthy!

TimeManager:
He's speaking the mind of Wike, methinks Wike will strongly be opposed to the idea of GEJ coming back. Some people brought up the idea of Obi retuning to PDP but the idea flew out if the window as quickly as it came. It seems GEJ stands a better chance but Wike will definitely have a say here.

-Kiss the truth!

fergie001:
You said in 2015 in Calabar, that Jonathan is not your brother. Can you say the same in 2025?

Rotimi Amaechi on X space;