₦airaland Forum

elampiro:
What now happened to Anderson and Cleverley?

For Ando it was injury crisis. He has a long list of injury crisis from his days at Porto. It is only a fit player that can be in form.

For Cleverley, Moyes over-trained him and also affected him with his negative football. We can see that in his performances at Aston Villa this season.

Moyes destroyed a lot of our players with his hard training method and negative playing style that eroded their confidence. At a point Fellaini complained about the intensity of his training. That is a player that he brought from his former club who knew his training methods from Everton. That alone speaks a lot of over-training.

elampiro:
Four years after Mourniho left, Lampard, Terry, Mikel, Ashley Cole, Drogba, Maluoda, were beating all the teams in Europe and won the Champions league. Some other players like Alex, who left out of issues are still first team players for their clubs.

Two years after SAF left, all our players are going into early retirement. Many can't smell first team football in Man United.

Abeg, how else can one be lazy? Very clear.

Happy Sunday.

How many players retired? As far as i know it's only Scholes that retired then. Giggs was still a player-assistant coach. Vidic and Evra moved for their personal reasons.

I can even tell you that the whole team was over-trained by Moyes and this affected a lot of younger players.

elampiro:
We had a change of hands in the assistant coach. So the style and system would automatically change. The result might be that the players muscles will be getting weak year in year out if the training became too soft. I wouldnt also know if there were other changes in medical team as to affect players fitness when coming out of injuries.

In 2007/8 we won many games 1-0, 2-1. But we dominated those games such that the oppositions only played to reduce the goals they came to concede. Most times we went in front first. This is different from when a middle table team dominate us and we only got away with our superior ability to create a clear cut chance or superiority in finishing a chance.

Changing of assistant coach doesn't necessarily means that SAF will then will change his training system/methods. The new assistant coach will still have to plan his coaching sessions according to the cub's established standards.

Not dominating games wasn't training method's problem. Rather, it was a personnel problem. It was the usual midfield problem that's still affecting the club till today. The players who were supposed to take over from Scholes didn't live up to expectations.

I could remember at the start of the 2010/11 season when Ando and Cleverly were on fire before they faced some injury crises, this issue of not dominating wasn't there.

Different coaches with different training system/methods. As far as i understand, no coach will ever drop his training standard because that is a recipe for failure. So also, no coach will condone laziness by any of his players.

Why will a coach change training system/methods that is giving him results? There can only be modifications here and there.

It is only normal for a new coach to change what he met at a club if it doesn't align with his own training methods and that doesn't mean the previous coach's method was not up to standard.

Winning some games by 1 goal margin doesn't mean the team was lazy. Man Utd are used to winning that way. What about Chelsea winning this season with about eleven games with one goal margin? Does that mean they too are lazy?

coogar:
truth be told....he's a very good midfielder. if he can stay fit, he would be a wonderful asset in our midfield. as fans, we tend to underrate any player moving from a PL club to man utd. if this dude plays for PSG, bayern or juventus, we would be screaming for his signature.

he's better than kondogbia in my opinion & i would give hands & knees for sign kondogbia. if we cannot get any of pogba or vidal, any of schneiderlin or alex song is perfectly fine by me.

I also think that guy Schneiderlin is a good DM and i`ll like us to have him straight away.

Impulse80:
I've created the whatsapp group. if you Rep April message me on 07062747875 and I'll add you.

I Rep April.

Add 08036953300

This is where i belong. Good to be here. I`m April 14th. Nice to meet you April people.

April 14th

coogar:
nigerian customers failed HITV or i should say HITV didn't do their homework very well. they are new to the terrain and that was why they failed. the truth is 90% of people who subscribe for sky or HITV do it because of football.

when the football season ends, a lot of people stop paying - HITV should have taken this into the equation with a proper scheme to address this downtime. between may & august, i was told about 5% of their customers paid their monthly subscription - they didn't have enough in their reserve to fill the gap & their business collapsed!

The owner failed himself by living frivolously despite having huge debts to service.

coogar:
you have to feel sorry for elampiro's intelligence. SAF is hiding rooney from gerrard is the most ridiculous excuse i have ever seen to defend rooney.

Of course Gerrard has Rooney's remote control nah.

parrotibaba:
If elampiro tells u dat it's raining u better come out n check for ur self ...dis is d same guy dat told us here dat Rooney was a winger for most of his united career barely 4 months ago!!! n now his preaching another Bible here ,dat Rooney has been our number 10 for much of his career ...next 4 months he will still come here n say dat Rooney was our number 4 for most of his career at united ...I wonder if Rooney's boot is far up ur a$$ dat u r coughing dust, u can't even argue right ...yarning crap all over d thread

That's what reading articles after football matches does to someone. If he finds some articles that says Rooney has been playing as numbers 4 for some seasons now he will definitely change gear.

No sensible person will rely more on a one man website (Zonal Marking) than one of the largest detailed football statistics website in Europe. But if he sees anything that will aid his argument some other day on the same whoscored, he'll hold on to it strongly.

The most surprising thing is that EPL has held two awards in the history of EPL. The first decade and the second decade award held in 2003 and 2012 respectively. To my surprise elampiro's best number 10 in premier league since he started playing is no where to be found in any. Is that not ridiculous?

As at the 2012 Rooney was already 7yrs at utd and according to elampiro he has played number 10 6yrs for Utd but he didn't make it to both the votes by a panel and the public, but Vidic that came in 2006 made it to one.

The best number 10 indeed!

elampiro:
You are the one telling lies. I stated that Zonal Marking states if it's 4-4-1-1. They have more 4-4-1-1 and even said United played 4-4-1-1 2011/2012 season.

See below too: I may have to fetch more later.

That's what i said that if it's 4 4 1 1 they'll state it. They stated specifically that it's 4 4 1 1. But what you do is that you always choose the ones that aids your arguments.

What about these two from Zonal Marking?

Chelsea 2-1 Man Utd: second half turnaround
March 1, 2011

A game of two halves – Frank Lampard’s penalty gave Chelsea the three points.

Carlo Ancelotti continued to leave Didier Drogba on the bench, favouring Nicolas Anelka and Fernando Torres. David Luiz started at the back. The rest of the side was as expected.

Sir Alex Ferguson named an unchanged side for the first time in over two years, so Dimitar Berbatov was on the bench once again.
Both sides played 4-4-2, and the game was open and exciting throughout – generally fast-paced and with lots of clear individual battles across the pitch.

Liverpool 3-1 Manchester United: Kuyt x 3
March 6, 2011

Dirk Kuyt scored all three goals in a comfortable victory for Liverpool.

Andy Carroll was fit enough only for the bench, so Kuyt and Luis Suarez played upfront. Daniel Agger was out, and Kenny Dalglish moved to four at the back, after last weekend’s poor performance with a back three at West Ham.

Sir Alex Ferguson surprisingly named a 4-4-2 shape. Darren Fletcher dropped to the bench, Ryan Giggs came in and Nani switched flanks. Wes Brown replaced the suspended Nemanja Vidic............................

Indeed, United’s shape didn’t work as a whole. With Suarez playing in a deep role, Liverpool found it too easy to manoeuvre the ball through midfield towards their forwards. When Scholes and Carrick dropped deeper, they opened up space for Lucas and Gerrard. Until this week, Ferguson has been extremely committed to using 4-5-1 in ‘big’ games – it’s surprising that he has used 4-4-2 in two of his toughest away fixtures of the season

The same Zonal Marking made those comments without mentioning 4 4 1 1. Zonal marking cannot know more than whoscored.

I don't know why i'll trust Zonal Marking which is a one-man's work more than whoscored that has so many feeds from a lot of experts and and is computer based.

elampiro:
Zonal Marking tells you when it's 4-4-1-1 and when it's 4-4-2. It tells when it's 4-4-1-1 but looking like a 4-4-2 (twish) Look at the matches one after the other.

That is a FAT lie. From what i've read on Zonal Marking, it'll simply state if it is 4 4 1 1 or 4 4 2 2.

This was essentially a very simple game – two fairly standard 4-4-2s doing battle. Manchester United’s problems in the centre of midfield can be considered on a wider scale, but this match primarily came down to two factors.

That game was also similar in terms of being 4-4-2 v 4-4-2, and the formations, whilst not a crucial factor, were of importance – it meant Newcastle could close down United in midfield without fear of being passed around. It’s far easier to press 2 v 2 than 2 v 3. A lot of balls were won in standard defensive midfield positions, but there was also a willingness to press higher up.

Those comments are also from Zonal Markings.

I don't rely much on what Zonal Markings says over football tactics and formations over whoscored. Zonal markings only pick matches that they like. Unlike whoscored that analyse all matches throughout the season.

I only went to Zonal Markings to pick all those formations because you've always been mentioning them as if they are the almighty of tactics and formation analysis.

elampiro:
These shows Rooney in the number 10. Is is not playing on same line as Hernadez or Welbeck or Bebertov.

If one player is behind another, it's no longer 4-4-2. Moreso, even Association Football stated that there is no much difference between 4-4-2 and 4-4-1-1. I dont know why you guys going back and forth just because Rooney MUST be brought down.

So do you want to say Sir Alex Ferguson was lying?

elampiro:
These are all 4-4-1-1.

Even when your Almighty Zonal Marking's comments said they are 4 4 2? SMH

This is one of Zonal Marking's comments:

City crafted a clever first half advantage over United, then were rampant after half time.

Sir Alex Ferguson went with the 4-4-2ish shape he’s favoured this season (but moved away from last weekend at Liverpool). There was no Nemanja Vidic, nor Phil Jones at the back. Danny Welbeck was alongside Wayne Rooney.

This comment was made as at January 2012
Maybe Zonal Markings is no longer reliable.

Remaining ones i have for you from your Zonal Marking. Where will ever be a number 10 in a 4 4 2 flat formation?

Most of these are for 2011/12 season. The almighty Zonal Markings only picked selected matches.

elampiro:
According to Zonal Marking, this was the most formation used by United under Ferguson. I can go fetch charts after charts to back up.

Mtchewwww. Who do I listen to, whoscored which said Kgawa was in the hole instead of wing or Ferguson who coached Rooney?

Rooney is the best number 10 of his generation.

Even your almighty Zonal Marking is telling us something different from what you have been telling us. You choose Zonal Markings formation that suits you but left out those that confirms what we have been saying that the most formation used by SAF throughout his era is 4 4 2 flat.
I would have brought out so many others, only that the formations are not there.

Are these also 4411?

I know you will always have excuses or find a way to twist it.

elampiro:
I have told you what SAF and Rooney said verbatim, but you chose to believe your imagination. I have actually been avoiding bringing articles written by pundits, I stuck with what the coach and players said. Even you agreed at least to a supposrt striker which is still number 10 in association football.

Now I even have seen an article written by ANDY COLE. He says Ferguson switched his system from 4-4-2 to 4-5-1 in 2001. He said the idea was to make United have more possession and create more chances for the lone striker.

You are the one imagining. There are facts to support what i've said. You don't expect me to believe what pundits said over the facts that are on ground.

What SAF said doesn't mean that he played Rooney behind the striker all the time. He would have said that about Jones if any issue came up about defensive midfield or right back.

Rooney wanted to leave Man Utd because he was being used as a number 10 in SAF's last season. He said he wanted to play in the center forward position.

Those are the facts from whoscored. I deliberately omitted that of 2009/2010 because you already accepted that he was our top striker then. In 2010/11 4411 formation was used four times, 2011/12 two times, 2012/2013 three times.

You will also see that in SAF's last season, he changed the formation totally and adopted 4231 where Rooney played as a number 10 mostly in that season and that was the reason he said he wanted to leave.

This is my last response on this issue.

elampiro:
Yes, I even saw the article that said SAF adapted his 4-4-2 formation in the 1990s to 4-4-1-1 and 4-3-3 on Jose Mourinho's arrival to the EPL..


I beg make I sleep. I don tire finish. This argument get demon attached.

Did SAF write the article? Rooney have always played alongside another striker in 4 4 2 formation. Man Utd hardly play 4 4 1 1 formation. The facts are there on whoscored site. They keep records of how each team plays seasons in seasons out.

I can't rely on articles written by some journo when there are site that gathers these facts every season.

elampiro:
No SAF played 4-4-1-1. Once a striker dropped behind. SAF said Rooney played behind a striker. So what are you still arguing?

Rooney never played on same line with others.

Are you sure about this? So, you are telling me that SAF played mainly 4 4 1 1 system throughout his era.

elampiro:
It's very clear it's centre midfield. BRING THE DATE OF THAT INTERVIEW LETS SEE WHERE ROONEY WAS PLAYING.

I posted the link. He's talking about how SAF used him mostly behind RVP during that season because that's where he featured mostly during that season.

I don't need any article to confirm that to me. Whoscored has already confirmed what i know.

elampiro:
I am telling you once there is a player behind the striker. The formation is not 4-4-2.

SAF played Rooney in hole in 4-4-1-1, 4-2-3-1 and 4-5-1.



Even Association football has it that there can be a hole in 4-4-2 if the second striker is involved in build up play and defensive duty.

Once a striker drops behind, it is no longer 4 4 2 flat, it has become 4 4 1 1.

I am not disputing the fact that SAF played that system sometimes. He only played such system once in a while.

Maybe you should tell me the number of times SAF played such system in a season.

My own contention is that SAF played mainly 4 4 2 flat where there is no room for a number 10.

elampiro:
Here they were talking about Rooney playing in central midfield, not in the hole.

Did you read him mentioned Center there?

The issue was being played in the midfield rather than central forward. You yourself said he has been playing as an attacking midfielder which is a midfield position. Is that not different from center forward role?

elampiro:
Now we are getting somewhere. Ayagayagayagyo hey Ayagayagayagayo.

You guys had earlier said support striker. Pls read below. The coaches are not novice. When a player is playing behind a striker, his goal scoring duty is reduced for other functions.



..............................
Association football.

Second striker
The second striker (withdrawn striker or support striker) (historically called inside-left and inside-right, or inside forward) has a long history in the game, but the terminology to describe them has varied over the years. Originally such players were termed inside forwards. More recently, the preferred terms have been withdrawn striker, second striker, deep-lying forward, or support striker, and are often referred to as playing "in the hole" (i.e. the space between the midfield and the defence of the opposing team). Second strikers tend not to be as tall or as physically imposing as a centre forward.[52] They are required to be more "nippy", quick, mobile, and skillful, helping to create goals and scoring opportunities for centre forwards, utilising spaces created in the opposition's defence to provide passes to the strikers, picking up loose balls around the area, or attempting to dribble with the ball and score themselves.[52]

The position was initially developed by the famous Hungary national team of the late 1940s and mid-1950s led by Ferenc Puskás. Later, it was popularised in Italian football as the trequartista ("three-quarters" or fantasista, the advanced playmaker who plays neither in midfield nor as a forward, but effectively pulls the strings for his team's attack, and serves as an assist provider.[53] Many players in this position can play in a free role, as an attacking midfielder or sometimes on the wing. The position has also been known as the number 10 role, as many players who played in this position wore the number 10 jersey.

I have said it that you don't know football formations or you don't understand it. The one they are talking about here is not flat 4 4 2 but a variation of it which is 4 4 1 1.

elampiro:
This is the most illogical post I have read this year.

1. There is no behind the striker in a 4-4-2. They play side by side. United played 4-4-1-1 and 4-5-1. Then 4-3-3 in difficult away games.

2. SAF said the way Ashley Young was deployed at Villa. Young played in the hole at Villa in a 4-2-3-1 and 4-5-1.

3. The space behind the striker is the hole.

You are the only one being illogical. How can you say there is a number 10 position in 442 flat formation? Do you even know formations at all? I don't even need SAF to tell me that there is no "hole" in 442.

These other formations you listed, how often did SAF use them? 442 flat formation was the most used formation by SAF during his era.

Let's not also forget that was the reason he wanted to leave Man Utd at the end of 2012/13 season.

Berbatov was bought as a striker in 2008. After Ronaldo and Tevez left in 2009, he was being paired with Rooney upfront and we had no problem with Rooney's position in the team other than that he said Man Utd weren't ambitious enough for him. So he said that he wanted to leave Utd.

SAF bought RVP in 2012. Rooney was immediately relegated to the midfield to play as our number 10 because SAF had adopted 4 2 3 1 system in the league. This placed RVP as our lone striker in the system. In that season, Rooney rarely played in the striking positions. This sparked off a rift between him and SAF where he said he won't play in the midfield.

Question now is that if he has been playing in the midfield as a number 10 all through his career as a Man Utd player, why then is it that time that he decided to reject such position?

Rooney's account is that, after nearly a decade at the club, he felt he had done enough to warrant a place in "my position", namely as centre-forward, and was fed up of being told to help out in midfield. "Everyone at the club knew where I wanted to play and I think that's why I was disappointed. I got told to play in midfield and I didn't want to. I just think there had to come a point when, for my own career, I had to be a bit selfish really."

This goes back to last spring, not long after he had been left out of United's starting XI to face Real Madrid in the second leg of their Champions League quarter-final. "I actually felt when I played in midfield I did OK, but I didn't want to play there. I've had no problem in the past playing out of position. But I felt I deserved the right to play in my position and that wasn't happening.

"I think, naturally, I was a bit disappointed and maybe that affected some of the games I played. I know myself that last year wasn't my best season but there were times when I was playing in different positions. I didn't feel I got a consistent run of games up front. Sometimes when you're not playing in one position all the time it's difficult to adapt."

http://www.theguardian.com/football/2013/oct/09/wayne-rooney-reasons-leave-manchester-united

That's from a player whom elampiro said has played as a number 10/midfielder all through his Man Utd career.

coogar:
chelsea played 4-3-3 or at best 4-2-3-1 when they signed essien in 05/06. drogba always functioned as a lone striker. the formation changed slightly when they signed shevchenko in 06/07 to 4-1-2-1-2(diamond 4-4-2) but mourinho quickly binned sheva and went back to his 4-2-3-1.

in all this time, SAF was still stuck to his 4-4-2. carlos queiroz convinced fergie to dump the formation in europe & be more conservative in his approach. even then, against the smaller sides in the EPL, 4-4-2 was our default formation.

Exactly!

elampiro:
Why did Drogba not even measure up?

Drogba didn't measure up because he is an out and out striker and Chelsea rarely adopt a 442 flat system. He doesn't share the burden of scoring with any other striker in the system they play.

elampiro:
There is no much difference between a support striker and a number 10. Association Football made this clear. Some look at the distance they play from each other. Rooney is usually very far from the man ufront. Then SAF said BEHIND THE STRIKER. Saf surely knows the difference. Rooney also said BEHIND THE STRIKER. Note: They didnt say co-strikers.

Behind the striker is the hole.

If someone is playing in the "Hole", he must be an attacking midfielder and that is usually a number 10. There is no room for a number 10 in 442 formation which was the most used system by SAF during his reign.

This has also been confirmed by the periods covered by whoscored.

elampiro:
I will go look for it tomorrow. But SAF above said BEHIND THE STRIKER. That is the hole.

Secondly, why did Rooney begged to be played as a striker just before 2009/10 season kicked off?

It is the formation that will determine whether someone is in the hole or not. There is nothing like "Hole" in 442 flat formation.

That was because he was being moved about in the forward position when Tevez and Ronaldo were still around.

elampiro:
This stat here tells me Rooney was a number 10 in major part of his career. I know he also played as a winger, striker and central midfield. He played most part of his first season as a winger.

This is a Farce. It doesn't say anything.

If Thiery Henry had had the same playing time as Rooney, he would've scored more assists than Rooney. What kind of logic is this?

elampiro:
If you play behind a striker you are in the 'hole'. An AM.

In 4-4-2 the two strikers are on same line or virtually on same line always.

So what formation was played for Rooney to have played behind the striker?

4 4 2 formation doesn't necessarily means they have to be on the same level. They may be slightly adjacent to each other.

When Rooney is pushed to the striking position in this formation, it is either he leads or he supports. Mostly throughout his career in this system he acts as a support striker. The two strikers shares the responsibility of scoring when the opportunity comes depending on their positioning.