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Christianity Etc › Re: Has GOD Given Humans Freewill Or Predestinated Humans?? by timmy2409(m): 8:49am On Mar 03, 2015

byteHead:
I beleive God predestined humans BUT WE CHOSE TO HAVE FREEWILL when Adam and Eve disobeyed God by eating the forbidden fruit.

*facepalm*

WTF does that even mean? You guys keep shooting yourselves in the foot over and over again without flinching. I'm amazed, really

How does one CHOOSE to have freewill without initially having it?

Mehn you Christians on this thread are doing your religion a massive disservice

2 Likes

Christianity Etc › Re: The Non-Christian Chatbox ( sticky ) by timmy2409(m): 9:42am On Mar 02, 2015

ooman:
what is africanism?

No idea. Was being silly

Here's what Google thinks
1. a feature of language or culture regarded as characteristically African.
2. the belief that black Africans and their culture should predominate in Africa.

Education › Re: The People In The Land Of Nod: Bible Question by timmy2409(m): 9:16am On Mar 02, 2015

Sanchez01:
Skeptics have pointed out that the only viable solution to the problem of Cain's wife (Cain marrying his sister) suffers from theological problems, since close relations were not allowed to marry according to Jewish law. However, all of these events happened before the law was given. According to the Apostle Paul, when there is no law, there can be no violation of the law or sin. So, since the law against incest was not given until thousands of years later, there was no theological problem with Cain marrying his sister.

Just like Cain took one of his sisters for a wife, it would have been possible that the other sons did the same and made for themselves a settlement which was described as a 'city' in the Bible. Just like I pointed out above, the 'city', according to Jewish traditions them, was a settlement of people which is fenced or properly defended from outsiders. So it could be right to say that was the say thing the Bible referred to but the use of the word 'city' is wrongly rendered, obviously, because it does not project the proper mental image of a city in our minds.

Conclusively, inbreeding was not condemned until thousands of years later after the laws were made, and that best explain how the descendants of Adam were able to multiply.

Cain procreating with his sister not only suffers from theological problems, but from biological ones. Anyone with a fair grasp of biology will tell you that it is genetically impossible for two individuals alone to have populated the human species as we have it today. Besides the increased proliferation of genetic defects among the resultant offspring after the first generation, (which I would think that God wouldn't want for his people), there's also the problem of diversity. Are you telling me that two individuals alone are responsible for all the races we see in the world today, and only within about 6000 years? Yeah, think again.

Some other Christians have tried to resolve this issue by saying that Adam and Eve were not the only humans that Yahweh created, but only the first. This however also runs into its own problems. Since these other creations were not privy to the original sin event, that implies that the sin-from-birth doctrine does not apply to the entire human population, but to only those related by blood to both Adam and Eve. On a side note, the whole original sin story itself is just obtuse. If eating the forbidden fruit was really what gave Adam and Eve the ability to distinguish right from wrong, then it was unjust for God to punish them for actions taken before they had such knowledge, and assuming God is indeed omniscient and knows the end from the beginning, then it seems completely bizarre and cruel for God to have set up this strange game in the first place. Anyway I digress...

You said that inbreeding was fine because God had not made a law against it yet. OK. Recall that Jesus supposedly came to abolish the law right? (Ephesians 2:13-15, Hebrews 7:18-19). So why are you not steady banging your sister? It seems to me that Christians will sanction the most ridiculous things to maintain the piety of their God and ignore the glaring irrationality of their beliefs. Why did God kill 42 teenagers for calling a prophet bald (which he was, presumably)? "That was in those days.." Why did God sanction the murder of entire populations of humans that he created just because they weren't Israelites? "That was in those days.." How about all the ridiculous restrictions on foods, meats, clothing, as well as the laws allowing the burning, stoning and enslavement of others? "That was in those days.."

The truth is that the bible is a collection of millenia old Jewish myths, a lot of which were gathered through contact with various ancient peoples. The story of Noah's Ark, for example, was adapted from a Mesopotamian myth called the Epic of Gilgamesh, which was written centuries before anything in the bible ever was. These stories are no different from the stories of Oduduwa of the Yoruba tribe or what-have-you from other ethnicities. If you anchor your worldview on such specious stories, then you will continue asking questions like this, while your mates in other climes solve the complex scientific issues that ensure the survival of our species in this universe.

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Christianity Etc › Re: Has GOD Given Humans Freewill Or Predestinated Humans?? by timmy2409(m): 5:50am On Mar 02, 2015

An2elect2:
Get behind me plaetton.

Well wouldn't you like that grin

2 Likes

Christianity Etc › Re: The Non-Christian Chatbox ( sticky ) by timmy2409(m): 10:02pm On Mar 01, 2015

ooman:
whats that?

..the best for every black man. duh

Christianity Etc › Re: Why Didnt Jesus Teach Anything New by timmy2409(m): 7:09pm On Feb 28, 2015

johnydon22:
And how did he die for my sins 2000years ago even when i was not in existence yet, Dying for a sins that have not been committed yet..

Some foreknowledge right there grin

Christianity Etc › Re: Why Didnt Jesus Teach Anything New by timmy2409(m): 6:54am On Feb 28, 2015

This is yet another pointer to the fact that the Jesus written about in the bible was either a myth or a goddamned fraud.

To be fair, his father's track record is far from stellar either. What practical predictions or solutions does he offer for the current world in his book to the human population again? Squat. Zilch. Zero.

Like someone already said above, you cannot tell things you do not know.

Christianity Etc › Re: Has GOD Given Humans Freewill Or Predestinated Humans?? by timmy2409(m): 2:24am On Feb 28, 2015

ayoku777:
You totally missed the whole point of my father-son parable. But that's ok.

And again, you're wrong, I'm not bogged down by anything. My explanations of foreknowledge and predestination are so clear and lucid. I'm just shocked its sounding like rocket science to some. And you only want to discard them for your sake because you don't understand them and can't argue against them well. That's ok too.

Now to answer your question.

You can't take the right path.

Why? Your choice determines God's foreknowledge. God can only foreknow what you will choose. God cannot foreknow you choosing left if you will eventually choose right. It is what you will choose that God can foreknow.

So if God foreknows you choosing left, then its because left is what you will choose. If you would choose right then God would foreknow you choosing right.

Your choice determines God's foreknowledge. What you will choose determines what God foreknows.

Man.... I just can't

I'm looking for an even simpler way to explain the gross logical blunder in the bolded argument above, but my hands dey fall me big time.

"Your choice determines God's foreknowledge" = God does not know until you make the choice, ergo he is not omniscient.

"So if God foreknows you choosing left, then it is left you will choose" = Your choice is dependent on the pre-mapped sequence of events in God's head, ergo man has no freewill.

You're literally trying to have your cake and eat it. Do you know what mutual exclusivity means? It's either one or the other man. If you can make choices freely that affect your eventual end, then God cannot know your end from your beginning then, can he? It's simple really.

Picture it this way.

If every single person's actions unfolds in exactly the manner that God had foreseen it before he created the universe, then we are simply actors in his vision, no? That's not really freewill, is it?

If, at the point of creation, God foretold to himself that at this exact time I would arrive at a crossroad and would chose the left road, then I CANNOT chose the right road then, can I?

2 Likes

Christianity Etc › Re: Has GOD Given Humans Freewill Or Predestinated Humans?? by timmy2409(m): 8:36pm On Feb 27, 2015

ayoku777:
Now, he can choose to truly face his studies and graduate with good grades or he can play away his time, drop out of school and go his own way.

Now, I also know that he will choose the latter. To play away his time, drop out and go his way. Infact I know he will drop out of school in 200 level.

Predestination is my will for him. The destiny I want him to fulfil. The thing I want him to be and do. Which is to study, graduate with good grades and get a nice job with a reputable firm. Which I've even gone ahead to secure for him.

Freewill is his power of choice to decide to be and to do what I want him to be and do; or for him to do his own thing and go his own way.

Foreknowledge is my ability to know what choice he will make with his freewill. Whether he will follow my plan and my will for him or not. Which in this case I know he will not follow my plans for him.

Yet again, this is where your logic fails. You're not omniscient as God is, so you do not and cannot know for a fact that your son will fail.

Sure, you can extrapolate based on his temperament, attitude and current outlook on life that he is likely to fail in school, but you cannot know for sure that he will. Whatever conclusions you draw are merely predictions and can only be measured as a diminutive percentage of absolute certainty.

On the other hand, God is omniscient so he not only knows with absolute certainty that your son will fail in school, he also knows the exact sequence of actions that will lead to this failure, what his exact final GPA will be and how many times he will eat rice during the semester.

Now frank asked you earlier, if God knows a future event, can it not come to pass? And you answered this:

But the answer to your question is yes. God's foreknowledge of our choices is never wrong. So if God foreknows you will choose to go to hell, then it means you will. Not that He predestined you for hell, but you chose by your own freewill to go there. God only foreknew you will make that choice.

I am willing to assume that you are simply getting bogged down in the various terminology (foreknow, predestine), so let's discard them momentarily. I'll ask a simple question and I want you to answer without using either of those terms.

Here it is:

I am driving down a road that splits into two paths at an intersection. God, knowing the future, possesses the knowledge that I would take the left path. On getting to the intersection, can I choose to take the right path?

2 Likes

Christianity Etc › Re: Can You Kill Your Son If God Tell You To? by timmy2409(m): 7:28pm On Feb 27, 2015

johnydon22:

Funny enough, Abraham isn't even the worst example from the bible since he didn't end up going through with the murder. There was some guy Jared or Japheth or smth, who actually sacrificed his daughter to Yahweh for helping him win a war.

Talk about despicable

Christianity Etc › Re: Has GOD Given Humans Freewill Or Predestinated Humans?? by timmy2409(m): 7:04pm On Feb 27, 2015

ayoku777:
But the answer to your question is yes. God's foreknowledge of our choices is never wrong. So if God foreknows you will choose to go to hell, then it means you will. Not that He predestined you for hell, but you chose by your own freewill to go there. God only foreknew you will make that choice.

https://www.reactiongifs.com/r/2013/01/not-mad-amazed.gif

Christianity Etc › Re: Has GOD Given Humans Freewill Or Predestinated Humans?? by timmy2409(m): 6:49pm On Feb 27, 2015

GUYS I think I've solved this conundrum.....

Seeing as my man ayoku777 is getting ever closer to employing the standard "we cannot understand the ways of God" copout, I thought I should offer some help.

Here it is

God has foreknowledge of EVERY single possibility of events EVER, but the universe as well as everything in it exists in some sort of Schroedinger's cat state, where frank317 can indeed be simultaneously eating only rice and only yam. NOTHING goes against God's will because it's all covered. Basically, for every action taken, there exists multiple alternate realities where alternatives of that action are taken simultaneously. And of course while frank317 is eating only rice in this reality, he is not aware of the other alternate reality frank317 that is eating only yam. God retains his omniscience, and we all retain our precious freewills

ayouku777 You're welcome! grin

Fashion › The Great Debate: What Color Is This Dress? by timmy2409(op): 5:50am On Feb 27, 2015

This debate went viral on the interwebs earlier today when a Tumblr user posted the following image they took of a dress. Apparently people perceive its colors differently. Some think it is a White & Gold dress, while some others maintain that is Blue & Black. What color is it really? We may never know. What colors do you see?

https://40.media.tumblr.com/a391a1b4b46dd6b498d379e50f96ecbc/tumblr_nkcjuq8Tdr1tnacy1o1_500.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/N1JfsoR.png

Christianity Etc › Re: Has GOD Given Humans Freewill Or Predestinated Humans?? by timmy2409(m): 6:46pm On Feb 26, 2015

ayoku777:
Predestination is what God wants you to be and do, your calling, the reason He created you. Freewill is what you choose to do, freewill is your power of choice to submit to God's will or do your own thing.
Not everything happening in the world or in our lives is God's will or His plan. Most or a lot are simply the consequences of man's personal choices. God's will for man is not always done, otherwise everyone will be born again.
Predestination is not cast in iron. God's predeterminate will for a man is not imposed, you have the choice to not submit to it. So yes, God gave man predestination, and the freewill to submit to it or not.
As I said if God's will is always done, everyone will be born again; and every born again christian will be Christ-like. Because that is God's predestination for everyone He foreknew according to Romans 8.

Man you have such a expert way of rationalizing the irrational. If you're not already making Oledepo-scale money as some sort of pastor somewhere, then you might be wasting your talent.

By getting hung up on the definition of predestination, you shift focus away from perhaps the most crucial point in this conversation -- God's supposed omni-xx qualities. OK let's assume God indeed has a will for us all, and we can choose whether or not to submit to it. Fine. But God is omniscient. Why would he have a plan/will for you that he knows you will not submit to? The bible claims that God knows the end from the beginning. To anyone with half a brain, that means he knows the totality of actions past, present and future. Every possible occurrence is covered within this pre-known path of events. If you were to sneeze in exactly 5 minutes from now, God already knew it would happen before he created the earth. Whether or not you chose to call this predestination is your cup of tea.

2 Likes

Christianity Etc › Re: The Sin Of self-service And Its Consequencies In The Life Of God's People by timmy2409(m): 8:48am On Feb 20, 2015

VivaLaFrans:
Guy I can't comprehend what the pic is all about. Is it about the galaxies or Evolution? What's the message there?

Each successive frame attempts to show how unbelievably massive our universe is. The last one shows Jesus watching over the universe saying "Don't mas.turbate".

The intended point is that the creator of this gargantuan universe, if any, couldn't possibly care for what people on earth do with their private parts.

Christianity Etc › Re: Kill Bill Vo.1 - Philosophical Edition? by timmy2409(m): 8:00pm On Feb 15, 2015

EnlightenedSoul:
I disagree @ "The Greater Good"

By steering the trolley from its track, I'm choosing, actively, to kill that one person. Morally speaking, we always lend our focus to how upright the action itself is. The proper (moral) answer IMO, is to let the chips fall where they('re) may/meant.

The trolley was already on it's course. The consequence of that is (quite tragically) of no consequence, so to speak.

Well isn't inaction a course of action in itself? I would think that since you're present in the situation, and possess the ability to affect the outcome at no cost to your own life, then you're obliged to be a participant. If you decide to take no action, then you have, in essence, allowed the death of five over the death of one. Again, this holds if and only if you are considered an active participant in the scenario by virtue of your proximity, and latent power of influence.

Also, since this is in the religion section, I suppose I could ask, "What would Jesus do?"

Does he support the utilitarian point of view aka "the greater good'? Like in your first scenario, would he harvest the one man's organs to save the other five and basically take from Peter to pay Paul? Well, according to the bible he once saved a man's life by driving out his demons into a farmer's herd of pigs, causing them to immediately plunge to their deaths. So maybe?

But then again, multiple comparably great evils are perpetrated in the world daily that one would think Jesus, being God himself, would have the power to stop, but evidently doesn't. So it would seem that he's given to inaction as well?

I'm curious. How do Christians answer these questions?

Christianity Etc › Re: Atheists, What Is The VALUE Of Human Life? by timmy2409(m): 8:20pm On Feb 10, 2015*

Fifty shekels of silver will do just fine, I'm told

3 Likes

Christianity Etc › Re: Woman Vomits Python Snake During Spiritual Deliverance In Church In Taraba by timmy2409(m): 7:22pm On Feb 02, 2015

Macelliot:
Video of woman who vomited live snake during deliverance
[flash=400,200]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IJVpeI3kQwc[/flash]

You freaking liar. I just wasted 7 minutes of my life watching an ediot stomp on another ediot's stomach. There's no snake anywhere in the video, because such things don't happen. You fellas need to provide evidence, or stop lying for your god

19 Likes

Christianity Etc › Re: The Non-Christian Chatbox ( sticky ) by timmy2409(m): 9:03am On Feb 01, 2015

wiegraf:
The new wave is impressive. At this rate the section will be renamed 'irreligion' or 'Bleep religion' in a year or two.

That said, slower mayhaps. Mayhaps due to political folly season in the country

True that. The proliferation of reason is always a beauty to behold

I'll admit though that this section does miss the likes of Anony, DeepSight et al. Not sure if its just me, but each theist thread I open these days just makes me want to donate my brain to charity. Rankling ignorance everywhere. Jeezus.

PS: How about that boy Zouma though? Back off Cahill!

Christianity Etc › Re: The Non-Christian Chatbox ( sticky ) by timmy2409(m): 5:33pm On Jan 30, 2015

Donwetcell:
hi guys so happy to be here with you

No one's here anymore it seems. Nonetheless, welcome!

Christianity Etc › Re: Why Does God Sometimes Hardens People's Heart? by timmy2409(m): 10:16pm On Jan 25, 2015

This entire story of the Exodus is part of a longstanding collection of myths that the bible is composed of. No archeologist in his right mind today would tell you that the Exodus ever happened. There has been no archeological evidence whatsoever to support the claims that a multitude of Israelites were held in captivity in Egypt, that later traversed the surrounding wilderness en masse. So you see, whether or not Yahweh hardened Pharaoh's heart is irrelevant, seeing as this is really a bed time story of sorts from the Jewish Torah.

If anything though, stories like these offer insight into the old Jewish perceptions of their deity, Yahweh. The various contradictions between his alleged omni-qualities (-benevolence, -potent, -scient etc)and acts like this, only show the illiteracy of the writers of these stories.

This movie excerpt offers some salient thoughts on the subject

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dx7irFN2gdI

Christianity Etc › Re: The Non-Christian Chatbox ( sticky ) by timmy2409(m): 6:33am On Jan 25, 2015

Looks like Mourinho is a big fan of yours on here grin

Jeezus, what a clusterfuck of a game though (allegedly)

Well, if I didn't see it, it didn't happen

Christianity Etc › Re: Atheists Think They Know Things, But They Know Nothing (must Read). by timmy2409(m): 7:07am On Jan 23, 2015

Well as long as we all agree that a comprehensive knowledge of bullshyt is required to discuss God and the afterlife

2 Likes

Christianity Etc › Re: The Non-Christian Chatbox ( sticky ) by timmy2409(m): 11:18pm On Jan 20, 2015

Gary Cahill is the goddamn worst. WTF angry

Christianity Etc › Re: The Non-Christian Chatbox ( sticky ) by timmy2409(m): 12:40am On Jan 14, 2015*

undercat:
Muslims can't take a punch.

Somehow, I'm thinking of this grin

http://www.theonion.com/articles/no-one-murdered-because-of-this-image,29553/

Christianity Etc › Re: Ever Happened To You? (Weird Coincidences, Synchronicity, Law Of Attraction). by timmy2409(m): 2:48pm On Jan 06, 2015

Pistolx:
wtf is dat

Obsessing that a very sick person will die until they eventually do doesn't make you psychic. It only makes you an obsessive pessimist.

4 Likes

Christianity Etc › Re: Ever Happened To You? (Weird Coincidences, Synchronicity, Law Of Attraction). by timmy2409(m): 11:59pm On Jan 05, 2015

Pistolx:
yea if the person is very sick sumtin keep telling me dat d person gonna die until it happens

Seems more like you're suffering from OCD-level pessimism

8 Likes

Christianity Etc › Re: Have You Ever Had A Paranormal Experience? by timmy2409(m): 10:14pm On Jan 05, 2015

Lisaflex:
Lol,dts a funny 1..do i take it dt u r one of d unbelievers? Lack of evidence doesn't necessarily mean dt smtn doesn't exist...keep ur mind open

Yes indeed I am skeptical. Growing up, everything I "knew" about the supernatural/paranormal I had heard from other people and from movies. All the times that I came close to something that was supposed to be juju, it turned out to be a load of bullsh*t. Basically, I have not once experienced any such phenomena myself.

Of course this does not mean that such things do not exist conclusively. Rather, I put very little trust in subjective human accounts, knowing how easy it is for the brain to create events according to a person's beliefs/fantasy, or to wrongfully attribute exceptionality to normal events.

Moreover it seems that accounts of the paranormal are more prevalent in societies characterized by relative scientific ignorance, high religiosity and substantial economic/life uncertainty.

3 Likes

Christianity Etc › Re: Have You Ever Had A Paranormal Experience? by timmy2409(m): 8:06am On Jan 05, 2015*

My experience of the paranormal is a little weird. Since I was a child, I have loved to fall asleep with my hands in my boxers. It's weird, yes, but it's a habit that I cannot do without even until today. Anyway, so a few years ago, I went to visit this girl that I had been toasting for a while, and we ended up knocking boots on the first night.

At some point in the middle of the night after we had fallen asleep with the lights off, something in my subconscious startled me awake. Immediately I noticed that my joystick was missing from its usual spot. Oboy, come see shout. I was so shocked I just began to scream "My joystick! Where's my joystick!!!". Na so the girl wake up tell me "Your hand is in my pant you ediot!"

PS: If anyone really believes they have experienced the supernatural, and have evidence of it, be aware that you can make a cool million dollars - cash! Courtesy of Randi.org since 1964.

7 Likes 2 Shares

Christianity Etc › Re: The Non-Christian Chatbox ( sticky ) by timmy2409(m): 1:34am On Jan 05, 2015

Atypical of th superior man

Christianity Etc › Re: Miracle: Thunder Strikes Fleeing Robbery Suspects After Stealing From Church. by timmy2409(m): 5:19pm On Jan 04, 2015

Like anyone with half a brain could already tell you, this story is complete balderdash.

http://www.snopes.com/photos/automobiles/lightningcar.asp

While the story is certainly fantastic, it is also completely false. There have not been any recent reports of a church being robbed in St. Petersburg, nor have any credible sources confirmed several people died there in December 2014 after a vehicle was struck by lightning. In fact, it appears the only source reporting on these incredible and unbelievable claims is in the text accompanying the YouTube video.

Christianity Etc › Re: Quiz: Who Killed More People In The Bible?? God Or Satan by timmy2409(m): 3:39am On Jan 04, 2015

Richard Dawkins:

The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.

I've said it here before, and I'll say it again. Whether he exists or not, the Christian God is worthy of neither worship nor emulation. Nigga is batshit crazy

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