₦airaland Forum

davidylan:
Your shallow and tenous attempt to use human reasoning to understand spiritual things is really alarming.

I agree. But remember that goodguy is just a spawn of the Orthodox dead letter church, and yes, he is very very confused.

goodguy:
. . . this idea of freewill has been debunked already, as it seems to contradict the omniscient and omnibenevolent nature of God (by Human definition).

Too bad I wasn't a part of that thread. Missed that one.  

*sigh*

God created man with a mind/soul, capable of making it's own decisions, inventing, growing, changing.  
He wanted man to be someone he can talk to, spend time with, have fun with and love.  

If not for this freedom of choice, how could Adam have chosen to disobey God in the first place?

So for the life of me I don't understand how all of a sudden freewill is a contradction to the omniscience of God.

I have said this before.  God is ALL knowing and ALL powerful.

He knows what will happen if you choose this way, and he knows what will happen if you choose another.
He knows what will happen if disobey Him guidance, and he knows what will happen if you do.
He knows what will happen if you take the shortcut to the grocery, and he knows what will happen if you take a taxi.


Three things remain constant:-

1.  The freedom of choice
2.  The consequence of that choice
3.  The all knowingness of God on whichever choice you make

I dare call it the conditional knowledge of God.  
He knows the outcome of every choice you make.  But he does not CONTROL your decisions.  YOU make those decisions.

"CHOOSE YOU THIS DAY WHO YOU WILL SERVE"

So I find it hard to believe and worrying that a so called christan would call "defunct" the truth of freewill and even worse, deny the omniscience of the God they are supposed to be serving.  

No wonder you think God thinks like man and issues get out of hell free cards from his judgment seat.  
Hm, maybe I can convince him to drag Saddam and Hitler out and preach to them and see if they'll finally be CONVINCED of the gospel!

And it is appointed unto men once to die, then to judgement.

The purpose of accepting being born again of the spirit is to become HOLY and ACCEPTABLE to God, so that we can enter into his HOLY kingdom.  That which is unclean CANNOT enter into the kingdom of heaven.  If we die unclean, God cannot "cleanse" us" to enter heaven.  If it were so he would not have sent Jesus to die, so that we would not die the second death.

goodguy,

one thing I've learned about people who are wrong is that when you show them their error it shakes the very foundation of their belief system and they become confused.

they also become defensive and will utter alll sorts of rubbish to defend their position. 

coming from an orthodox background i understand your spiritual blindness and it is pointless to expect you to entertain anyone else's truthful opinion even when you are given scripture to back it up.  You rather hold on to your own pie in the sky notion that people who are given the opportunity to receive chirst, over and over again, even though they are not "convinced" will somehow have a chance after that to sit down and"reason" with God at the judgment. LOL!!

Even writing it sounds funny! lol

Things are so simple when it comes to salvation yet we always try to complicate it.  *sigh*

Explain what we christians like to call "conviction"? I'm guessing you mean "Godly sorrow"

Tell me, if I kick a man in gut for calling my mother a prostitute, but the man had no legs and was in a wheelchair, when my anger goes away, is it Godly sorrow, or simply remorse for the horrible things I've done.

In like manner, if a man hears the gospel, and reasons with himself that he has done wrong and is a sinner, even his own human nature will bring him remorse IF he is willing to ACCEPT the truth laid out to him.

This is my own opinion, but I believe that "conviction" or "godly sorrow" that leads to repentance comes from a christian who walks with God, and if/when we sin or fall short, the spirit who we have surrendered our lives to, comes in and CORRECTS us, REPROVES us and CHASTISES to make us better christians.  Like a father chastising his children.

When we share the gospel, we should always prepare in prayer asking God to open the hearts and ears of those we share it with.  Rebuke a couple demons if you have to, and go in faith.  Sometimes people who hear the gospel and know that it's true and STILL put off receiving Jesus for a later time in their life.

Others are blinded by all type of spiritual influences.  It's a fact that not all will enter into the kingdom. 
And it's also quite possible for the spirit to lay such heaviness on a man's heart that they will in no doubt call him Lord.

But even if he does all that, and he is still rejected on earth, what in the world makes you think that after denying him all this time and only because you are convinced after death that he is real and now your judge, that he will listen to "reason".  What will you say "Lord, well I wasn't convinced you were real then, but I'm convinced now! So can I enter heaven"?? lol!!

I call that a get out of hell free card for everyone on earth, like david said.

TV01:
Exactly my fear !

What the hell is happening here? TV what are you doing? Please come back and give meaningful contributions to this forum.  I miss arguing against your views! 

Amby:
Shahan, the issue about Mary, the Mother of God, has nothing to do with logic. It's scriptural if one is willing to deduce facts from the words of the scripture and as well be atuned to the Holy Spirit for a proper guide and understanding.

If you have gone through the entire thread, you will recall portion I cited where Elizabeth, filled with the Holy Spirit said in a loud voice, "You are the most blessed of all women, and blessed is the child you will bear! Why should this great thing happen to me, [color=#000099]that my Lord's mother comes to visit me? (Lk 1:41-43).[/color]

I have asked severally from those who do not see her (Mary) as the mother of God, (because, according to them, "the scripture did not say so" to give clear difference between Lord and God in the hope that they will open their spiritual eyes to the words of the scripture and deduce for themselves the fact that she (Mary) is indeed the mother of God as she was addressed by Elizabeth.

Reflect, God will guide you.
Regards.

The Lord IS God. There is no questioning that. However, the question as to Mary being the mother of God has been answered. It is folly! 

Amby you are mislead by one misinterpreted scripture verse where Elizabeth declared that  Marry was carrying the Messiah.

Consider the following scriptures:

Luke 1

32 He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. . .  . . .So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God.

Luke 1: 39 - 43
At that time Mary got ready and hurried to a town in the hill country of Judea, where she entered Zechariah's home and greeted Elizabeth.  When Elizabeth heard Mary's greeting, the baby leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit.

In a loud voice she exclaimed: "Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the child you will bear!

But why am I so favored, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? As soon as the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the baby in my womb leaped for joy."

How did Elizabeth know that Mary was carrying the Lord/God?

It was a revelation by the Spirit of God.

Elizabeth by the spirit knew that Mary was carrying the human incarnate of God the spirit!

Please explain to me how the creation (Mary) suddenly becomes the creator?

How does flesh and blood give birth to spirit

If you focus on the purpose of the incarnation of Christ coming in the form of fallable flesh you will understand that Mary was simply a chosen vessel.

In earthly terms of course she was the mother of the incarnate Messiah Jesus Christ.  But again, how do you justify calling flesh the creator (mother) of God the spirit 

It makes no sense! Flesh gives birth to flesh; spirit gives birth to spirit.

Let me take it further, if Mary was also the spiritual mother of the spirit of the begotten son (since spirit gives birth to spirit), then we shouldn't call him the son of God, but the son of Mary!

Is there anywhere in scripture that refers to him, even ONCE as the son of Mary? Please!

And if certain people would step out of their holier than thou inherently catholic condescension, and stop talking about being atuned to the Holy Spirit when they obviously are not, they will see the simple truth, and not use one misinterpreted revelation of the Holy Spirit to a woman  who was shown the truth as justification for practising idolatry.

That truth being that a part of the triune God head had lessened himself to be contained in corruptible flesh for a season, just to give us the opportunity to redeem ourselves to, and our relationship with Him, which was our initial purpose.

In the same manner catholics misuse another revalation of the Holy Spirit and replace it with flesh:-

Matthew 16: 27-18
And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Is Peter the rock that Christ has built his church on? I'm sure Amby will say yes.

But a proper contextual and "atuned" interpretation would reveal that as Jesus said "flesh and blood didn't reveal this to you but my Father in heaven" meaning God, the Lord, the Spirit, the Rock would be either or both the gift of revelation and the solid rock on which we stand.  God the Father!

Anyway that's off topic, but we see the trend of error:-

1.  Mary the creation being deified as being God's mother (flesh and blood giving birth to spirit)
2.  Peter a disciple being deified as a saint and the foundation of the christian church (flesh and blood being praised above the spirit)

Hence, the idols (statues) of both and the worship and repititous prayers said to the "Blessed Virgin" Mary and "Saint Peter"

Another one! And this one is awesome

I was dabbling in some spells and incantations, practising witchcraft, what they call "white magic" (yup, I was a crazy fool like that).  But I had met this guy, who practised the dark arts, black magic, haitian rituals and occultic verses etc.

In my "curiosity" (stupidity) I went to his house where he practised.  There was a book that was so powerful, when I touched it I felt this heaviness on me.  When I opened it he shouted at me to put it down and warned me to never read from it without the proper "protection".  Not even he used it unless he was in the presence of a fellow practitioner and all the right preparation was done.

Guess what curious trini girl did? Yup, she opened it AND read from it. Lol!!

Anyways nothing happened (immediately), and we went on to do a ritual for me to gain knowledge on a particular subject. 

LET ME WARN ALL THOSE WHO ARE CURIOUS ABOUT THE BLACK ARTS TO NEVER  EVER EVEN ENTERTAIN THE THOUGHT OF PRACTISING ANY TYPE OF "WHITE" MAGIC SPELLS, EVEN IF IT'S FOR SOMETHING AS DECEPTIVELY SIMPLE AS FINDING OUT WHERE YOU LOST YOUR FAVOURITE PIECE OF JEWELLRY.  IT IS ALL SATANIC.  INCLUDING OUIJA BOARDS, TAROT CARD READINGS, PSYCHIC READINGS ETC.

So back to the story. 

When I got back to my house I felt a bit strange, but dismissed it as just being exposed to something new.  I tried a couple spells that didn't work, looked at the ingredients and realised I used the wrong paper.  I needed parchment paper.  So I made my usual list to go to this catholic "religious" store that sold things like "john the conqueror root", "love potion #9", goat horns etc.

That night when I went to sleep something wonderful happened!

Now I should say that all this happened AFTER I rejected all things christian and was on my own "search" for truth, but the spirit of God was always with and in me.  It's true what he said that he will NEVER leave us or forsake us! 

Anyways, in this dream I was by myself in my house.  I had just entered the front door as I did earlier on that day.
Only this time I was in the spirit and saw something frightening.

On entering the doorway, just as I was about to close it I saw this huge white cloudish form, much taller than 7 feet and wider  6 feet, in the shape of an open hand floating and following me into the house and heading straight for my spirit! 

But instead of running I saw my mouth open but it wasn't me that spoke.  I heard a voice like thunder simply say
"HOW DARE YOU!"!!

Immediately the spirit being put in reverse gear and flew out of my house and the door slammed shut right after!

The spirit of God was so faithful to me even when I rejected Him.

He fought for me when I refused to fight.
He rescued me when I didn't even know I was in danger.
He kept me alive, even when I had given up and wanted to die (spiritually).
Wow!  There is no way that I can ever deny the reality of  God in my own life. EVER!

Anyway, that one jolted me out of my sleep.

After that I became so aware and so paranoid that death was following me around and that the devil wanted my soul because he knew I was far from God, that it didn't take long for me to fall on my knees, repent and return to my first love.

So I would say yes! Some dreams are very real and God uses dreams to speak to some of us. Dream or travelling? I'm not sure.  Either way I'm glad that I have vivid 3D dreams in colour and I remember them all. 

thugsreal:
@ Trini girl

Oh Trini, why are you feeling that way? Are you saying Most Nairaland users are loud mouths? I know you're famous for 'Premarital sex is not Fornication'
O.K let say loudmouth and blahblah is welcomed will you participate then? No disrespect, i just didnt want thread ruiners! but am sure a lot of Nairaland users are quite eloquent and gifted.

then I am welcome! hehehe !

Ok, this is my personal experience with dreams.

God has always spoken to me through dreams, since my early teens.

But a few of them stand out.

As a young christian I had been going through a lot of changes, challenges and deliverance from many influencing spirits because of spiritual doors that I had opened through experimentation.

At one point I became so disillusioned, tired and frustrated I wanted to give up. Physically and spiritually. My deliverance was daunting.

At nights demons used to enter my room and torment me and I was restless. I would always wake up depressed and tired.

Sometimes I would feel a presence in my room, other times something would press me down on my bed and I couldn't move, breath or speak.

One night, I decided I was too tired to fight anymore and that I will allow the devil to take me and kill me if he wants cuz I didn't care anymore. Then I fell asleep.

In my dream I was driving late at night along a dark empty road in a pitch black forest. The only light was from my car lights.

The car broke down in the middle of nowhere, just like that, and the lights went out. I couldn't even see my hand in front my face.

Suddenly when I looked straight ahead I saw two red glowing eyes peeking through the forest darkness, but I wasn't afraid, I knew that it was the devil coming to kill me, finally, I would have peace.

The animal crawled out of the forest onto the road where now, I was standing outside my car.

What I saw was a big black panther, with the most evil red eyes I had ever seen, slowly creeping towards me to devour me.

All of a sudden a light shone from the sky and I turned around to see what it was.

The being that descended identified herself as "Melissa", a messenger of God.

She spoke in my own dialect asking me "Why do you want to die? You have so much to live for! God wants you to know that He is still in control and he has plans for your life!"

She said other things but I won't write them here. Since I know the dream already sounds like a fairytale

Anyway, long and short of it, she encouraged me to keep fighting, and ascended to the sky after she delivered her message.

After she left when I looked where the black panther had been, I saw a small puppy instead.

I entered the car, started the engine as if nothing was ever wrong, and drove through the rest of the forest.

Woke up feeling pretty good the next morning too!

thugsreal:
Please no loud mouths, immatures and blah blahs!

well no wonder this thread is so boring

haba, I'm getting a headache now.  All this false doctrine. 

Jen,

Thanks for the apologetics on reincarnation and forgive my ignorance on the subject matter but it begs the question as to the motive of 'god' and the purpose of incarnated spirits.  What you expect me to believe is that for those of us who do not choose to incarnate as human beings, there are multiple perfect universes where one can relax, float on clouds or such like, with no stress and just enjoy existence to the fullest.  Rub-bish! Where is your proof?  It's a positive so there should be proof. Not so?

And even if this were true, the effect of phyiscal incarnation should be that earthlings are at peace after much counsel and guidance.  Evil is not a trial and tribulation, evil is a state of being.

In fact if I were not human in prior incarnations then my constant exposure to a highly evolved and perfect universe should by no means cause me to incarnate as a wicked human being.  It just does not make sense!

You keep dancing around my question as to why we are not yet perfect on earth. 

What you have done though is expatiated on the politics of universal incarnations. 

That any soul would choose to incarnate as a human being at all, in that case, is beyond me.

@ babs

babs787:
@trini girl,

I knew that you are not only after the discussion but interested in name calling too. Like i keep saying, you are not the first and will not be the last.You cannot post stupid things here and expect babs to accept them hook, line and sinker.

What are you blabbing about again? First of all the passage on the qu'ran supporting the bible was meant to show that the author of the alleged 101 contradictions was in fact contradicting himself in the first place.

The earlier you accept, the better for you.

Scribes and copyists, according to this source, make two types of scribal errors

1. Spelling of proper names (especially unfamiliar foreign names)
2. Numbers.

I give up having been admitted by you.

Had I not accepted it I would not have posted it in the first place, my unstable unworthy opponent 

In fact I don't see how you can describe it as stupid when you yourself conceded and quoted the qu'ran as giving support to the Torah. 

The intended audience of this thread was certainly not for lunatics like yourself, however flies are attracted to good meat so I don't blame you. 

Move on!

Tonee:
hi lafile, i want to believe your the son of your mother right?

and for Christ's sake you do have a body annnnnnd a spirit, its called yyour soul!

actually, made in the image and likeness of the God head, father, son and holy ghost, we are body, spirit AND soul. They are separate but function as one.

Tonee:
Well house, how does Jesus was nourished by sucking mother Mary's breast sound?

hey, Jesus needed milk too!

Tonee:
THIS IS 4 TRINI GIRL,

REAL SMART REPLY, BUT THAT SUGGESTE YOU DON'T HAVE ANYTHING AGAIINST MY CALLING THE VIRGIN MARY, THE MOTHER OF JESUS CHRIST THEN?

Well Tonee I think Mary's virginity was short lived after all, she was a married woman!

However that she was the maternal mother of Jesus Christ is a statement of fact.

babs787:
@trini girl

Qu'ran aside and more importantly however, and what I found interesting in this article, is the admission that there are two types of translational errors in the Bible, but it in no way lessens the truth of the Gospel of Christ.

It might not have lessen the truth of the Gospel, but can we say the current gospel is the one given to Jesus?

Also, what sort of translational error is that in which a verse is saying 18 and another 118. What is the position of the Holy Spirit here. If they have used a word to replace another it would have been better (synonyms) but for a verse to be saying 6pm and another saying 3pm, is quite unacceptable and very contradicting.

It is very glaring that none of the so called writers/authors (mathew,mark,luke & john)can be held responsible as being the real writers/authors. None of them was around, they all fled. It was only the women that stood from afar witnessing the incident. Little wonder Mary went to the tomb to anoint jesus (never mind, coming to that in my write up on the crucifixion of jesus).

Dont you worry,my next post will not be for you but for Shahan.

Babs who refers to himself in the third person as most unstable delusional folk do,

What are you blabbing about again? First of all the passage on the qu'ran supporting the bible was meant to show that the author of the alleged 101 contradictions was in fact contradicting himself in the first place.

You yourself have supported this in saying

No my dear, please read:

Quran 5v68: Say (O Muhammed saw), " O people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians)! YOU HAVE NOTHING (AS REGARDS GUIDANCE) till you act according to the Torah, the Gospel, AND WHAT HAS (NOW) BEEN SENT DOWN TO YOU FROM YOUR LORD (THE QURAN). Verily, that which has been sent down to you (O Muhammed saw) from your Lord increases in most of them (their) obstinate rebellion and disbelief. So be not sorrowful over the PEOPLE WHO DISBELIEF.

Hope its clearly understood.

Hope you clearly understand, that although this sura states to erroneously add thr quran. The Torah is still being confirmed as a resource for guidance.

The gospel that you admitted is true above, was not 'given' to Jesus. Jesus IS the gospel given to us, through his disciples.

As we see above even though modern day translations may contain two type of errors:-

1. Yet we may be sure that the original manuscript (better known as autograph) of each book of the Bible, being directly inspired by God, was free from all error.

2. In spite of the errors it does not take away from the truth documented therein.

Scribes and copyists, according to this source, make two types of scribal errors

1. Spelling of proper names (especially unfamiliar foreign names)
2. Numbers.

With regard to the new testament accounts of Jesus' life, death, and resurrection. Their are slightly different accounts but each one has the same tone. Jesus was resurrected from the tomb, and ascended into heaven. Which is what's important, and which no other so called god or prophet has ever done.

I wonder what you get out of all this your attempted conondrum? You must have way too much time on your hands.

I'm sure shahan might have the time to entertain your nonsense, but I do not.

another re run

_{*** yawns and leaves thread ***}

Frankly babs, I have no intention of getting into a lengthy debate about the contradiction of the alleged contradictions found in the Bible.

Especially since I have little knowledge of the Qu'ran.

Qu'ran aside and more importantly however, and what I found interesting in this article, is the admission that there are two types of translational errors in the Bible, but it in no way lessens the truth of the Gospel of Christ.

It also attempts to explain, in their opinion the so called contradiction itself, to give people a better contextual understanding of the related scriptures.

Tonee:
hello dear brothers in Christ,

i have patiently read through the thread and i believe that we're all going round in circles,

permit me to ask whats the difference between saying Mary the mother of Jesus Christ and Mary the mother Of God.

if we accept that Jesus Christ is God, then whats the argument

good question, and if you would be open to a "sister" giving you an answer it is this:-

Although Jesus Christ is a part of the God head, and has been restored to his rightful place at the right hand of God, when he became flesh, he became as man. Being tempted in all manner but without sin, to fulfil divine purpose.

Therefore he was the son of man physically but the son of God spiritually.

So his earthly mother Mary, can be said to be his BIOLOGICAL mother, as he was ON EARTH ie mother of Jesus,
but in absouletly no way was she ever responsible or a steward over his SPIRIT man.

Mother of the flesh, not mother of the spirit.

After the resurrection all earthly ties to his maternal mother were broken! She was no longer his mother, but a disciple, a follower. She has always been a vessel of honour used for God's purpose, no contention there.

But if you call her the mother of God (as in God the father, God the son and the Holy Spirit) you might as well go further to say that she was the wife of Jehovah!

God has no mother! He is spirit.

Jen33:
Spiritual evolution refers to a period of learning for a God created soul that sees it develop spirituality out of individual experience.

In simple terms it can be likened to a process of soul education, just like we have human education on earth.

Earth lives are simply part of Soul education. The physical world is a simulation and is not 'real'. Time and space are physical illusions, There's really no such thing as past and present.

Human progress, at soul level, can appear as 'evil times' on a physical level to humans.

The period we're in now, characterised by a host of negatives, is, at spirit level, perceivable as an epoch of great learning and realisation.

The nuclear race for instance, and its attendant anxieties and destructive potential, can be seen as a great lesson for humanity, in its quest to achieve societies free of fear and exploitation.

Thus current events would be exactly what humanity requires to awaken her from her moral stupor.

How can humanity be in a moral stupor if we are naturally being educated and re incarnated by the all knowing universe of love? Where then is the wisdom of the cosmos?

Jen33:
Cure humanity of the selfishness and aggrandizement that have come to define existence on the planet.

But by your definition we are not sick, we only make mistakes out of ignorance, so why do we need to be "cured"?

Jen33:
At Spirit level, humanity has progressed because 5000 years ago, we had not yet experienced the ultimate effects of selfishness, such as we are today.

So you're now saying that an indication of progress is the fact that humanity is WORSE off than it was 5000 years ago? That sounds like [b]RE[/b]gression to me.

Jen33:
The chaos that will arise from the current state of affairs will lead to a moral re-appraisal by the human race, and that is what spiritual evoluton is about.

The minute you realise that physical death is simply a relinquishing of the body and that consciousness is not dependent on a human body to survive, you'll see that it's really just a spiritual game.

The physical world is an illusion created for soul development. Imagine an aerodeck simulation on say Star Trek-The Next Generation, where an entirely self contained environment can be created with the click of a button. That's the physical world.

It's not real.

Our true home - the world of true reality -  is in the world of spirits.

Interesting reading. Now you're saying we're living in The Matrix with a slight slant.  Our real selves are being toyed with by the universe rather than being hooked up to a massive generator by evolved computers and used as battery power.

I thought you said that those who experience that realm of spirituality find it difficult to call it God, but rather 'collective consciousness'

So then our collective consciousness even on a univeral level, along with spirit guides, still cannot get it right after more than 5000 years?

Interesting.

If these highly evolved spirits have such knowledge then they should have the wisdom to guide us to a higher plain by now.
 
It seems a bit contradictory that after all this time in spite of their best efforts what they are teaching still manifests itself in 'evil' up to this point. 

You still have not answered my question as to why this supposed perfection has not yet manifested to mankind.  Please do better than "human progress manifests itself as evil at times".  Not after billions of years of evolution.

After so many incarnations, and guidance by highly evolved spirits, why are we still making mistakes, and why are we still ignorant?

Is it then the oneness is illusive and unattainable? Are you saying then that we are destined to be eternally trapped in a game orchestrated by the universe of incarnate them to make the same mistakes, but when they pass let them think they are changing but leave them the same, then in the other incarnation they'll forget about their former wicked life, but eventually repeat the cycle all over again? 

What then is the purpose of soul education/development if so many incarnations later there is no improvement?

It defies simple logic.

lol

good serve davidylan!

Jen33:
Humans are simply physical manifestations of immortal souls who've decided on their own accord to incarnate as 'humans' for a brief while on earth in order to learn and/or teach lessons vital to soul development.

A soul is developed to the extent that it is aligned to the logic of universal oneness - the concept that, as aspects of God, we are ALL a part of the whole.

Spirituality is simply the awareness, and the manifestation of the awareness that ALL ARE ONE.

Evil, selfishness, greed etc etc are effects of a lack of knowledge of or appreciation for the intrinsic ONENESS of ALL that IS.

'Spirits' - WE, decide, in partnership with our personal guides - highly evolved spirits[b] dedicated to our evolutionary development[/b], to incarnate as 'human beings' for a few earth years in order to experience 'trials' and learn lessons that hasten our evolutionary development as souls.

We act out roles that have been largely mapped out by ourselves prior to our earthly life, with varying degrees built in for deviation.


At the level of Spirit, What we call sins are simply seen as mistakes. Acts of ignorance.

The less you've imbibed (often subconsciously)  the idea of universal oneness the more 'sinful' you are,


'Judgement Day' IS A SUBJECTIVE EXPERIENCE whereupon each soul upon returning home is at some point faced with spiritual elders who discuss with him his past life and what good things/mistakes he made etc all with a view to evolutionary development of the soul.

A soul could be made to feel the exact effects of their acts on others in a way that is said to make the soul deeply affected and emotional and cause them to want to make amends.

It's not a 'judgement thing'. The soul itself is his own worst critic.


It makes US feel better to worship God because of our fear and ignorance as imperfect humans.

Let me ask you a couple questions.

If we are all incarnations of a past life, would it not also be intrinsic to be perfected by now? Would we not have fixed our "mistakes" and "ignorance" by 2007?

As physical manifestations of an immortal soul of our choosing should not our spirit guides,  dedicated as they are to our 'evolutionary development', have counselled us to the point of perfect harmony and alignment into universal 'oneness'?

One would think we would have gotten it right any year Anno Domini!

If in my past life one million years ago I was a murderer(mistake), or a child molester(oops, sorry, another mistake), greedy(ignorance) or just pure evil(? ignorant mistake?  ), shouldn't my 'guides', who only have my best interest in mind, have counselled me into perfection by this re incarnated life cycle?

So please explain why the current state of affairs still exist? Why is there still crime, hatred, anger? What do I still struggle with thoughts of putting arsenic in my boss's coffee  ? Why are we not yet one with the loving universe?

If reincarnation is so natural why do we "worship God to make us feel better because we're imperfect human beings" ? STILL??

According to your belief, we should have naturally evolved into perfection by now. What's taking the universe so long?!

And please tell me how a spirit becomes 'highly evolved'? Does it move from  amoeba spirit to monkey spirit to  human spirit? I'm guessing it's not a human spirit at all is it. 

Ok, I have recovered.


Jen,

The Lord wanted me to tell you that  He loves you very much, and that you're hurting Him with your words.



My dependence and reliance is totally on God, without Him I would never be able to discern the thoughts and intents of the heart, the truth of His Word and the meaning of scripture in its truest context.  I would not have been able to see the error of religion, experience His true loving natured, the hope that salvation brings, the edifying and glorious joy and peace of His Holy Spirit, and I certainly would not have the patience I'm exercising with you now. 

For some reason I feel I have to stick with this just a while longer and believe me, if you know my nature I would have said a few choice words to you and left this thread a long time ago.  (thank God for the renewel of the mind)

I agree that the Bible contains what some would consider contradictions.
I agree that there are things that I do not understand in the Old Testament concerning "holy" wars
I agree that religion is filled with false doctrine and only seeks to control and manipulate christians to serve their own purpose in the name of Jesus Christ
I agree that my knowledge and intellect are limited when it comes to understanding things that oppose my faith

But I will tell you this,

There has always existed the error of man making christian religion synonymous with christian discipleship.
It's grievous to God that religous people do not know him, but only have a form of godliness. 

However, the truth of the gospel  is that God loved man so much that He sent his son to die as the ultimate blood sacrifice, to atone for the sin of the same man that rejected and hated him.

And if we accept the truth that Jesus Christ came, he died, and went back to heaven all for us, and live according to his teaching, not only will we experience a rewarding life on earth, but after our passing, we will enter into a glorious kingdom he has prepared for those who love Him and live for him.

That's the God I know.

I also know your god

He was beautiful, and vain. He used to serve my God but because of his rebellion, anger, disrepect, pride (sound like familiar traits?) he was expelled from his home, and given a new home for himself and all that carried the same characteristics.

Not void of intelligence, not unknowledgable of the things of God, he continuously devises new ways to deceive God's creations to see things his way.  Because he knows that the more people hate God, the more he will hurt God.


I don't believe this just because I was taught it.  There was a time in my life I rejected christianity and took up reading the Qu'ran, mingled a bit in Wiccan. I wanted to see for myself that this God I was taught to serve was real.

I have proven that He is, and in the same way He can and He will prove Himself to you.

When He does it, it will be your choice to either accept or reject this truth but I pray earnestly that you will accept it for the sake of your spirit and your soul.

4 Play:
People are confusing a fundamental principle of human law with that of divine law;"ignorance of the law is no excuse"
The rationale for that principle lies in the fact that had it been otherwise,everyone could claim ignorance and it would be very difficult to prove knowledge.

Please note I made no mention of law, biblical or secular in relation to the ignorance of it being no excuse.

What I said was the ignorance of the TRUTH does not make you exempt from the consequence.

However, those who choose to live by the law will be judged by the law, and who choose to live under the new covenant of grace will be judged by same.

4 Play:
In divine law,ignorance carries greater potency,for God will be able to know the truly ignorant from the sufficiently knowledgeable

So the principle "ignorance of the law is no excuse"has no relevance in matters of salvation

Please show scriptural support for this statement?

goodguy:
I have a problem with that emboldened part of your post. Do you honestly think God will just allow some people to 'hear' the message of Salvation, and whatever follows after that - whether they are convinced or not - He just doesn't care? He made us all, and whether anyone is genuinely convinced or not - only Him knows, and He definitely has a way He'll judge those ones. I am sick of seeing us all act as the judge here, saying some people will go to hell if they don't believe 'what they hear' about Jesus.

That definition just doesn't sound right.

I think the problem you are having is that you seem to think a person needs to be "convinced" into being saved.

Salvation is not a matter of being convinced, it is a matter of ACCEPTANCE. One can only accept when they are open, willing and ready. The gospel is quite simple.

Once you are open to receive God will honour your sincerity. Sow the seed and move on. Let the Holy Spirit give the increase.

As christians we offer the message of the free gift of salvation through Jesus Christ, we do not try to SELL salvation by repeatedly explaining to people why they should be saved, if their heart is hardened.

The disciples themselves had a mandate to dust their shoes off and leave places that did not receive the gospel.

That you choose to accept the gift or not is a matter of your free will.

If God didn't care about who accepts him or not, do you think he would have bothered to send his son to die so that we can have redemption and relationship with Him?

No one is judging we are simply stating the facts. As I outlined in the pre requistes for salvation above, being born again, confession with the mouth, and water baptism, if those who are not "outwardly convinced" (according to you) do not yield and accept Jesus Christ then the Bible is clear as to what their end shall be.

Aha, at last the author of your deception is explicitly identifiable.

Reincarnation, my god, the most seductive and well orchestrated deception the fallen one has ever successfully concucted and deployed from the bowels of his evil soul. The personification of anti christiandom. The epitomical contradiction of the sovereignty of Yahweh and the Kindom of Heaven.

My God, my god, my god.

_{*** shakes head hopelessly ***}

Reincarnation encompasses so many Christianity opposed religions . Im left speechless.

Hinduism, Buddhism, Taoism, Orthodox Judaism, Rosicrucianism, New Age Spiritualism, Scientology and even a few so called Christian churches.

But let’s not forget to mention the devil’s favourite, Occultism. This is more serious than I think even you, Jen, realize.

Is this Sista under a different name?

I had long wanted to start a thread on the thin line between Reincarnation and Schizophrenia but hadn’t gotten around to it. Chineke.

The heart of God weeps for those snared and bound by this unadulterated evil philosophy called reincarnation.
The devil devised skillful answers to all questions plaguing man's heart and managed to derail the reality of the almighty God in the process.

Past life regression, karma and spirit guides, cosmic alignment, I am god, man is inherently good nonsense. I've heard it all before.

Forgive my disjointed post, I'm still speechless.

Let me get over this emotional disappointment and come back. This has never happened before.

With no apologies, right now I sincerely feel like intereceding to God on your behalf.

4.  Samuel 24:13 mentions that there will be seven years of famine whereas 1 Chronicles 21:12 mentions only three.
(Category: misunderstood the author's intent, and misunderstood the wording)

There are two ways to look at this. The first is to assume that the author of 1 Chronicles emphasized the three-year period in which the famine was to be most intense, whereas the author of 2 Samuel includes the two years prior to and after this period, during which the famine worsened and lessened respectively.

Another solution can be noticed by observing the usage of words in each passage. When you compare the two passages you will note that the wording is significantly different in 1 Chronicles 21 from that found in a 2 Samuel 24.

In 2 Samuel 24:13 the question is "shall seven years of famine come to you?"

In 1 Chronicles 21:12 we find an alternative imperative, "take for yourself either three years of famine, "

From this we may reasonably conclude that 2 Samuel records the first approach of the prophet Gad to David, in which the alternative prospect was seven years; whereas the Chronicles account gives us the second and final approach of Nathan to the King, in which the Lord (doubtless in response to David's earnest entreaty in private prayer) reduced the severity of that grim alternative to three years rather than an entire span of seven.

As it turned out, however, David opted for God's third preference, and thereby received three days of severe pestilence, resulting in the deaths of 70,000 men in Israel.


** Isn't this interesting reading? ** 


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5. Was Ahaziah 22 (2 Kings 8:26) or 42 (2 Chronicles 22:2) when he began to rule over Jerusalem?
(Category: copyist error)

Because we are dealing with accounts which were written thousands of years ago, we would not expect to have the originals in our possession today, as they would have disintegrated long ago.

We are therefore dependent on the copies taken from copies of those originals, which were in turn continually copied out over a period of centuries.

The two examples of numerical discrepancy here have to do with a decade in the number given.

Ahaziah is said to have been 22 in 2 Kings 8:26; while in 2 Chronicles 22:2 Ahaziah is said to have been 42.

Fortunately there is enough additional information in the Biblical text to show that the correct number is 22.

Earlier in 2 Kings 8:17 the author mentions that Ahaziah's father Joram ben Ahab was 32 when he became King, and he died eight years later, at the age of 40.

Therefore Ahaziah could not have been 42 at the time of his father's death at age 40!

Such scribal errors do not change Jewish or Christian beliefs in the least.

In such a case, another portion of scripture often corrects the mistake (2 Kings 8:26 in this instance).

We must also remember that the scribes who were responsible for the copies were meticulously honest in handling Biblical texts.

They delivered them as they received them, without changing even obvious mistakes, which are few indeed.


I'll stop here for today.   

3.   Let's Talk Contradiction!

1. Does God incite David to conduct the census of his people (2 Samuel 4:1), or does Satan (1 Chronicles 21:1)?
(Category: misunderstood how God works in history)

This seems an apparent discrepancy unless of course[b] both statements are true. [/b]

It was towards the end of David's reign, and David was looking back over his brilliant conquests, which had brought the Canaanite, Syrian, and Phoenician kingdoms into a state of vassalage and dependency on Israel.

He had an attitude of pride and self-admiration for his achievements, and was thinking more in terms of armaments and troops than in terms of the mercies of God.

The Lord therefore decided that it was time that David be brought to his knees, where he would once again be cast back onto the mercy of God.

So he let him go ahead with his census, in order to find out just how much good it would do him, as the only thing this census would accomplish would be to inflate the national ego (intimated in Joab's warning against carrying out the census in 1 Chronicles 21:3).

As soon as the numbering was completed, God intended to chasten the nation with a disastrous plague which would bring about an enormous loss of life (in fact the lives of 70,000 Israelites according to 2 Samuel 24:15).

What about Satan? Why would he get himself involved in this affair (according to 1 Chronicles 21:1) if God had already prompted David to commit the folly he had in mind?

It seems his reasons were entirely malicious, knowing that a census would displease the Lord (1 Chronicles 21:7-, and so he also incited David to carry it through.

Yet this is nothing new, for there are a number of other occurrences in the Bible where both the Lord and Satan were involved in soul-searching testings and trials

a. In the book of Job.

b. Similarly both God and Satan are involved in the sufferings of persecuted Christians according to 1 Peter 4:19 and 5:8."

c. And finally the crucifixion itself bears out yet another example where both God and Satan are involved.

Satan exposed his purpose when he had the heart of Judas filled with treachery and hate (John 13:27), causing him to betray Jesus.

The Lord's reasoning behind the crucifixion, however, was that[b] Jesus, the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world should give his life as a ransom for many, so that once again sinful man could relish in the relationship lost at the very beginning, in the garden of Eden, and thereby enter into a relationship which is now eternal.[/b] 

Satan's motive in all these examples, including the census by David was driven by malicious intent, while the Lord in all these cases showed an entirely different motive.

His was a benevolent motive with a view to eventual victory, while simultaneously increasing the usefulness of the person tested.

In every case Satan's success was limited and transient; while in the end God's purpose was well served furthering His cause substantially.

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2. 2 Samuel 24:9 gives the total population for Israel as 800,000, whereas 1 Chronicles 21:5 says it was 1,100,000.(Category: misunderstood the historical context or misunderstood the author's intent)

There are a number of ways to understand not only this problem but the next challenge as well, since they both refer to the same passages and to the same census.

It is possible that the differences between the two accounts are related to the[b] unofficial and incomplete [/b] nature of the census (which will be discussed later), or that the book of Samuel presents rounded numbers, particularly for Judah.

The more likely answer, however, is that one census includes categories of men that the other excludes.

It is quite conceivable that the 1 Chronicles 21:5 figure included all the available men of fighting age, whether battle-seasoned or not, whereas the 2 Samuel 24:9 account is speaking only of those who were ready for battle.

Joab's report in 2 Samuel 24 uses the word 'is hayil, which is translated as "mighty men", or battle-seasoned troops, and refers to them numbering 800,000 veterans.

It is reasonable that there were an additional 300,000 men of military age kept in the reserves, but not yet involved in field combat.

The two groups would therefore make up the 1,100,000 men in the 1 Chronicles 21 account which does not employ the Hebrew term 'is hayil to describe them.

2.  Don't Worry, The Bible Is Still God's Word for His People

Contradictions Analyzed

When we look at the contradictions which Muslims point out we find that many of these errors are not errors at all but either a misunderstanding of the context or nothing more than copyist mistakes.

The former can easily be explained, while the latter need a little more attention.

It is quite clear that the books of the Old Testament were written between the 17th and the 5th century BC on the only parchments available at that time, pieces of Papyrus, which decayed rather quickly, and so needed continual copying.

We now know that much of the Old Testament was copied by hand for 3,000 years, while the New Testament was copied for another 1,400 years, in isolated communities in different lands and on different continents, yet they still remain basically unchanged.

Today many older manuscripts have been found which we can use to corroborate those earlier manuscripts.

In fact we have an enormous collection of manuscripts available to which we can go to corroborate the textual credibility of our current document.

Concerning the New Testament manuscripts (MSS) we have in our possession 5,300 Greek manuscripts or fragments thereof, 10,000 Latin Vulgate manuscripts and at least 9,300 other early translations.

In all we now have more than 24,000 manuscript copies or portions of the New Testament from which to use!

Obviously this gives us much more material with which to delineate any variant verses which may exist. Where there is a variant reading, these have been identified and expunged and noted as footnotes on the relevant pages of the texts. In no way does this imply any defects with our Bible (as found in the original autographs).

Christians readily admit, however, that there have been 'scribal errors' in the copies of the Old and New Testament.

It is beyond the capability of anyone to avoid any and every slip of the pen in copying page after page from any book, sacred or secular.

Yet we may be sure that the original manuscript (better known as autograph) of each book of the Bible, being directly inspired by God, was free from all error.

Those originals, however, because of the early date of their inception no longer exist.

The individuals responsible for the copying (scribes or copyists) were prone to making two types of scribal errors, well known and documented by those expert in the field of manuscript analysis.

One concerned the spelling of proper names (especially unfamiliar foreign names), and the other had to do with numbers.

The fact that it is mainly these type of errors in evidence gives credence to the argument for copyist errors.

If indeed the originals were in contradiction, we would see evidence of this within the content of the stories themselves. (Archer 1982:221-222)

What is important to remember, however, is that no well-attested variation in the manuscript copies that have come down to us alter any doctrine of the Bible.

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To this extent, at least, the Holy Spirit has exercised a restraining influence in superintending the transmission of the text.

Since God has nowhere promised an inerrant transmission of Scripture, it is necessary to affirm[b] that only the autographic text of the original documents were inspired. [/b]

For that reason it is essential that we maintain an ongoing textual criticism as a means of detecting any slips that may have crept into the text in the course of its transmission.

The verdict of this science, however, is that the Hebrew and Greek text appears to be amazingly well preserved, so that we are amply justified in affirming, with the Westminster Confession, a singular providence of God in this matter and in declaring that the authority of Scripture is in no way jeopardized by the fact that the copies we possess are not entirely error-free.

Similarly, no translation is or can be perfect, and all translations are an additional step away from the autograph.

Yet the verdict of linguistic science is that English-speaking Christians, at least, are exceedingly well served in these days with a host of excellent translations and have no cause for hesitating to conclude that the true Word of God is within their reach.

Indeed, in view of the frequent repetition in Scripture of the main matters with which it deals and also of the Holy Spirit's constant witness to and through the Word, no serious translation of Holy Scripture will so destroy its meaning as to render it unable to make its reader "wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus" (2 Tim. 3:15)"

With regard to this topic I know that many christians here have wondered about the alleged "contradictions" in the Bible.  As a result of my own questions I decided to do some research.  It's quite time consuming, but equally rewarding and I came across this extensive article on the web that's helping me in my study.

This is my first lengthy post, and personally I detest lengthy posts. However I think it's worth the time if you can spare it, to peruse.

All 101 alleged contradictions will not be discussed, but a sample of the explanations will be shown.


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1. The Foundation

The Charge of Contradiction


Muslims talk often about the many contradictions in the Bible. The number of contradictions vary depending on whom you are talking to. Kairanvi's Izhar-ul-Haq presents 119 numbered contradictions, while others such as Shabbir Ally have supposedly found 101 contradictions.

The Qur'an gives authority to the Bible:

The Qur'an, itself, the highest authority for all Muslims, gives authority to the Bible, assuming its authenticity at least up to the seventh-ninth Centuries.

Consider the following Suras:

Sura Baqara 2:136 points out that there is no difference between the scriptures which preceded and those of the Qur'an, saying, ", the revelation given to us, and Jesus, we make no difference between one and another of them."

Sura Al-I-Imran 3:2-3 continues, "Allah, He sent down the Law (of Moses) and the Gospel (of Jesus), as a guide to mankind."

Sura Nisaa 4:136 carries this farther by admonishing the Muslims to, ", Believe, and the scripture which He sent before him."

In Sura Ma-ida 5:47,49,50,52 we find a direct call to Christians to believe in their scriptures: ", We sent Jesus, the son of Mary, confirming the Law that had come before him. We sent him the Gospel,  Let the people of the Gospel judge by what Allah hath revealed therein, if any do fail to judge by the light of what Allah hath revealed, they are (no better than) those who rebel, "

Again, in Sura Ma-ida 5:68 we find a similar call: "People of the Book!, [/b]Stand fast by the law, the Gospel, and all revelation that hath come to you from YOUR LORD. It is the revelation that has come to thee from THY LORD."

To embolden this idea of the New and Old Testament's authority we find in Sura 10:94 that [b]Muslims are advised to confer with these scriptures if in doubt about their own, saying: "If thou wert in doubt as to what We have revealed unto thee, then ask those who have been reading the Book from before thee. The truth had indeed come to thee from thy Lord."

Finally, in Sura Ankabut 29:46[b] Muslims are asked not to question the authority of the scriptures of the Christians[/b], saying, "And dispute ye not with the people of the book but say: We believe in the revelation which has come down to us and that which came down to you."

If there is anything in these Suras which is clear, it is that[b] the Qur'an emphatically endorses the Torah and the Gospel as authentic and authoritative revelations from God[/b]. This coincides with what Christians believe, as well.

In fact, nowhere is there any warning in the Qur'an that the former scriptures had been corrupted, nor that they were contradictory.

If the Qur'an was indeed the final and complete revelation, if it was the seal of all former revelations the Muslims claim, than certainly the author of the Qur'an would have included a warning against that which had been corrupted in the earlier scriptures.

But nowhere do we find even a hint that the Bible was contradictory, or indeed that it was corrupted.

OkinBizkit:
Jen33 I truly believe your educational background and intellect is FAR superior than most people you will find on Nairaland. I suggest live this topic alone as you are wasting your precious time and energy. Believe me these Naija's are not thinking the same way like the rest of the Civilized world. To them Pastor Adeboye is the Truth(I even hear he can cure AIDS). Imagine that fuckery nonsense. But also too, you can blame poverty on the way most of these people think, na condition make them think like this. The Bible is the only hope they have for living, take that away and you take away their means of existence, and you don't want to do that.


WATCH SOME PEOPLE RESPOND TO THIS WITHOUT ACTUALLY THINKING ABOUT WHAT I JUST WROTE UP HERE. Guys the keyword is THINK. Oyinbo people that gave you christ through Slavery don't believe in him. Believe that. Americans wrote in GOD we trust, and shyt In DOLLARS we trust.

The Pharisee and Saducees also considered themselves of high intellect, but their spirit man was dead.  What I've notices about people who condemn christianity is their hatred and anger towards people who do.  Why is that? Everyone is free to serve whom ever they choose.

The lust of the eye, the lust of the flesh, the prid of life, always evident in athiests and those who run after false gods.
It's sad the type of bitter rage that comes out of you people's heart.

In any event, I am not Nigerian, and I am neither poor nor uneducated.  Rather, I have chosen not to delve into the fallacy of why the Bible is false, or why Jesus is a liar and a false prophet, simply because I do not believe it. 

I have tested and proven the reality of God, Jesus Christ and his Holy Spirit in my own life and can testify that they are real, the word of God is real, the bible is true and I have seen the FRUIT of surrending my will to him and allowing him to continuously change my heart and life for the better.

Show me which other faith has any good fruit.  Tell  me about the good fruit in your own life.  Then perhaps you will be taken a bit more seriously.

Ok Jen,

You have shown us why you don't believe in the Bible. Please testify about the god you serve and how he/she/it has positively impacted your life and others around you.

hehe. what I meant was , pleeeeez?