₦airaland Forum

TroGunn: An examination of the Bible reveals the truth about God Almighty ( Jehovah/Yahweh) and Jesus Christ. The Bible clearly shows them to be two distinct and different personalities. And they are not depicted as equals.

Jehovah is the Almighty and towers above all. Jesus Christ is subject to Jehovah, being created.

Jesus existed from the beginning, beginning of creation - meaning Christ has a beginning. God has no beginning, the only Being that has no beginning.

Christ is the "firstborn of all creation", if you know what "firstborn" means. "He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation" - Col 1:15

Christ is the "beginning of the creation" by God - And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God - Rev 3:14

Has there ever been a time Christ was equal to God? The Bible answers clearly:

Christ pre-coming to Earth, in heaven : Christ surbordinate, obeys his Father's instruction to sit at his right hand.

Psalms 110:1 "Jehovah said unto my Lord, Sit at my right hand, until I put thine enemies as footstool of thy feet".
Jesus himself confirmed that this scripture, written by David was about him - Matt 22:42-46. Also confirms Christ is a different person to God.

Christ on Earth : Christ is clearly lower than God. Obeys him, prays to him, does nothing unless God authorises. Jesus pointedly said God, his Father is greater. Shows us excellent example of humility and obedience to God.

John 14:28 - " “You heard me say, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I."

Christ after Earth, in heaven : After returning too heaven, Jesus position was even higher than before he came to earth. ( Also showing that he was below God before coming to earth).

Phillipians 2:9 - "Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name".

Still this most exalted position was below God. He continued surbodinate to God.

1 Cor 15: 25-28: For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. For he “has put everything under his feet.”c Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

Couldn't be clearer - describes future event, when death will be destroyed.

Jesus returns to God right hand till time is given by God to subdue enemies, as seen by Stephen in a vision. Also firms up that God and Christ are two distinct persons.

Acts 7:55-56 - “But he, being full of the Holy Spirit, gazed into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God, and said, 'Look! I see the heavens opened and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God!'.”

The Bible's message is quite clear and easily to understand once one has a clear mind bereft of confusing non-biblical trinity fairytale.

Christ being God's Son does not make him equal to God, as angels who are called Sons of God are not equal to God. Neither are we as children of God, equal to God.

Christ is God's Firstborn, only-begotten Son in the sense if being God's first creation, and he remains obedient and subordinate to his Father Jehovah. End of.

Before I respond to you I would like to knw, from you, if he is an angel. This will guide me in responding to ur post.

loveroftruth: All this apostate(disfellowshiped JW) with their anger.



from what you wrote up there, it is obviouse that your anger and hatred has erroded your reasoning ability.

All of a sudden, you have becomed the abiter of 'truth', how can ?

For someone that lacks the capacity to see a debate with scriptures to it logical conclussion, you sure have a big delusion,

the jw dont just say things, they varify them from the scriptures.

With the jw, how can you just think you can pass aligation like you are doing and imagine to be taken seriousely ? You need to post consistent scriptures to the contrary and not misapplied scriptures.

There has been so many debates on those topics in this forum that i have gone through, i cant remember seeing you there or you making a reasonable argurement there, all you seem capable of doing is throw propaganda at the jw, thinking it will serve your purpose.

Well, you are westing you breath and energy, the jw have practically covered the earth, their mission of letting people know about Jehovah and his kingdom is far done.

Though your kind keep on crying, the jw are doing their work in all lands today, sorry! You cannot stop them.

They are in over 260 lands, how many country do we have ?

I can feel your pain, it is tangible, its is a pity. Sorry!

Just dont kill your self because of this hatred. Smh.

Ok. The thread focuses on JW amd their teachings. I'm still on course with the subject matter. U can as well create a thread and expose wrong teachings in AG or other xtain denominations.

Attack my message\response, if i'm wrong, dnt attack me. I have never been a JW but I have had Bible discussion with them in my house for few yrs. So i can say i understand JW doctrines than many JW.

The muslims never belief that Jesus is the son of God, or that God has son. Admitting this, according to the muslims, is admitting the deity of Jesus. The Jews, till date, has the same challenge, thats y they reject Jesus altogether (John 5:18).

The JW, the triod in controversy, has a different analogy. They believe God almighty is the father of Jesus but they do not believ that he is divine. Among all these sects (muslims, jews and JW), I think the most confused are the Jw. How can u seperate the exact nature of the father from the son?

The father and the son biologically have the same DNA, blood, nature, form, appearance (Jesus said if u have seen me, you have seen God). Can any angel say 'if u have seen me u have seen God'? No. That will be a blaspephy, did Jesus blaspheme, at least to we xtains? No.

Oya, over to u, JMAN05 and BERNIMORE and other JWs in the house.

JMAN05: You know that I ve effectively answered all questions you guys presented on trinity. Now go and respond to all my comments on your posts and stop jumping my comments. Can you even bring up a nice argument.

I have asked you whether Jesus knows when the end will come? you flew away.

I ve asked you to produce whom that statement in hebrew was first applied to, you ran.

Before u go jumping up and down in exceitement, i said u r doing a good job as regards this thread. I appreciate that. Even a person charged for obvios murder can hire a good lawyer to present a good case for him. His death penalty might be commutted to life imprisonment, he might even be set free if the lawyer can proove that his client is mentally deranged.

Put urself in the shoe of the lawyer i mentioned above, thats y i said u r doin a good job, even tho' u r presenting a wrong evidence.

On the issue of christ coming, only the father knows that, thats does not mean that the son is no longer mighty God, everlasting father, prince of peace... (isiah 9:4). That does not mean he is no longer the first and the last, the alpha and the omega, (revelation 22:12&13), that does not mean that the father did not ask all angels, including angel michael, to worship the son (heb 1:6), that does not mean the world had not been subjected to him, but never subjected to any angel, not even angel michael (heb 2:5), that does not mean he no longer has the father's nature, or form, but has to submit\humble himself (Philipian 2:6).

Of course the father is greater than the son. And u will agree with me that bilogically a father cannot create his own son, but he is (the son) his bloodline, his flesh and his vry nature and his essence is replicated at birth. that is y the pharisees attempted killing Jesus for calling God his father, making himself equal to God (John 5:18).

Are JW thinking like the pharisees of John 5:18?

JMAN05: Christ became a king in 1914, that was never an error. I gave the calculation, why havent you refuted it, instead you went to talk about a mistake. oh did you think that that was the mistake we said we made?

Oya, e don start:

http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1102005159?q=1914+a+significant+year&p=par

Prove it wrong.

Ur 1914 is not only false but a false pillar that is holding the watchtower together. Is 1914 the only year that was predicted? No. Whats of the calcualtion that gave rise to 1925, 1935, 1975? If all these years have been judged a wrong calcalations, hw did 1914 able to stand as the 'accurate' calcualtion. Y is that its only the JW, representing less than 0.1% of the population pple that believe believe in christ, hold this view? Have JW doctrine ever been modified\changed (the light getting brighter)? These are some pertinent questions that will always bring ur JW teaching into searchlight.

I wont engaged in doing any wrong\unfounded numeric calculation when christ have said in his word 'my coming will be like a thief in the night', 'no man knws wen the coming of the son of man shall be'.

Ok, from mediaval histrory, when was was Jerusalem invaded and destroyed by the babylonians. Can u state the exact year?

JMAN05: Christ became a king in 1914, that was never an error. I gave the calculation, why havent you refuted it, instead you went to talk about a mistake. oh did you think that that was the mistake we said we made?

Oya, e don start:

http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1102005159?q=1914+a+significant+year&p=par

Prove it wrong.

Ur 1914 is not only false but a false pillar that is holding the watchtower together. Is 1914 the only year that was predicted? No. Whats of the calcualtion that gave rise to 1925, 1935, 1975? If all these years have been judged a wrong calcalations, hw did 1914 able to stand as the 'accurate' calcualtion. Y is that its only the JW, representing less than 0.1% of the population pple that believe believe in christ, hold this view? Have JW doctrine ever been modified\changed (the light getting brighter)? These are some pertinent questions that will always bring ur JW teaching into searchlight.

I wont engaged in doing any wrong\unfounded numeric calculation when christ have said in his word 'my coming will be like a thief in the night', 'no man knws wen the coming of the son of man shall be'.

Ok, from mediaval histrory, when was was Jerusalem invaded and destroyed by the babylonians. Can u state the exact year?

JMAN05: What do you people believe about the beasts of revelation. Tell me what they all stand for. eg Rev. 13

Your trinity has already been trashed here. You ve not responded to all my responses to your comment on that. eg the question I asked on hebrew.

U need to create a thread on AG doctrines that are false. This thread is for the JW to answer questions relating their weird teachings.

Similar thread had been created to 'test' the validity of some of catholic doctines. I wont engage u in unnecessary argument, we've done it before wen u were using ur seccond ID, BARRISTER. So u need not xpect me to continue in that path.

One thing i admire u now is that u r more mature, unlike before.

On the issue of the trinity, go back to the early page of the discssion, u will see my stance on the person of the holy spirit. We christians (not JW), belief in the person of the holy spirit, as the bible teaches, and not an active force, electricity, battery, non-living thing (as being taught by the JW). So the person of the holy spirit form part of the core argument of Trinity which im not ready to back to now.

Read the first three pages of the thread, open ur bible, close ur watchtower magazine, u will understand wat im talking about.

JMAN05: "Consequently, A. H. Macmillan explained later: “I learned that we should admit our mistakes and continue searching God’s Word for more enlightenment. No matter what adjustments we would have to make from time to time in our views, that would not change the gracious provision of the ransom and God’s promise of eternal life.” g95 6/22 p. 9. Is this not an admittance of mistake? also go and check watchtower 2013 page 14, study edition I pasted above when you guys demanded this. Yet your blindness will continue to lead you to demonic teachings.

Oya present your own.

Your last words are another falsehood. You can correct any of our elders and the Gov. Body. There is a provision for you to write them. stop this falsehood plssssssssss. is this what your church has taught you? God mercy for you. you brought the other lie about those who married outside, I and my brother here refuted it, now this lies again? habah christian.

Present your own admittance pls. lie lie.

U r doing a great job as requested by the thread: please defend the JW. Good of u.

As i said ealier i wont derail this thread. AG has a standard doctrine which i pasted above while JW has theirs. Can u please create a thread expsosin the errors on those teachings of AG while we try not to derail this topic.

U r hear to defend JW doctrine and not to throw punches here and there. If a question is asked on ur belief u defend it.

Again I asked, is the world to come to be subject to an angel (Heb 2:5)?

JMAN05: "Consequently, A. H. Macmillan explained later: “I learned that we should admit our mistakes and continue searching God’s Word for more enlightenment. No matter what adjustments we would have to make from time to time in our views, that would not change the gracious provision of the ransom and God’s promise of eternal life.” g95 6/22 p. 9. Is this not an admittance of mistake? also go and check watchtower 2013 page 14, study edition I pasted above when you guys demanded this. Yet your blindness will continue to lead you to demonic teachings.

Oya present your own.

Your last words are another falsehood. You can correct any of our elders and the Gov. Body. There is a provision for you to write them. stop this falsehood plssssssssss. is this what your church has taught you? God mercy for you. you brought the other lie about those who married outside, I and my brother here refuted it, now this lies again? habah christian.

Present your own admittance pls. lie lie.

U r doing a great job as requested by the thread: please defend the JW. Good of u.

As i said ealier i wont derail this thread. AG has a standard doctrine which i pasted above while JW has theirs. Can u please create a thread expsosin the errors on those teachings of AG while we try not to derail this topic.

U r hear to defend JW doctrine and not to throw punches here and there. If a question is asked on ur belief u defend it.

Again I asked, is the world to come to be subject to an angel (Heb 2:5)?

JMAN05: "Consequently, A. H. Macmillan explained later: “I learned that we should admit our mistakes and continue searching God’s Word for more enlightenment. No matter what adjustments we would have to make from time to time in our views, that would not change the gracious provision of the ransom and God’s promise of eternal life.” g95 6/22 p. 9. Is this not an admittance of mistake? also go and check watchtower 2013 page 14, study edition I pasted above when you guys demanded this. Yet your blindness will continue to lead you to demonic teachings.

Oya present your own.

Your last words are another falsehood. You can correct any of our elders and the Gov. Body. There is a provision for you to write them. stop this falsehood plssssssssss. is this what your church has taught you? God mercy for you. you brought the other lie about those who married outside, I and my brother here refuted it, now this lies again? habah christian.

Present your own admittance pls. lie lie.

U r doing a great job as requested by the thread: please defend the JW. Good of u.

As i said ealier i wont derail this thread. AG has a standard doctrine which i pasted above while JW has theirs. Can u please create a thread expsosin the errors on those teachings of AG while we try not to derail this topic.

U r hear to defend JW doctrine and not to throw punches here and there. If a question is asked on ur belief u defend it.

Again I asked, is the world to come to be subject to an angel (Heb 2:5)?

BERNIMOORE: dont derail italo's thread, i only chose to expose your church's assemblies of God false predictions not once or twice etc, and that since those prophecies which was heralded using your official journal ''the weekly evangel'' failed, that your church is guilty of falsely prophecying and a false prophet, simple

so it is not wheather they are wrong or not, your church basis is of fraudulent false prophets

U dnt have point my guy. Assemblies of God is not knwn for predictions. The official false doctrine of JW till date still remains the 1914 assumption of christ enthronment as heavenly king. Even till date ur JW oficially belive christ invisible return of 1914.

Mind u, this thread is to expose the deceit in watchtower. Check the title pls and see who is derailing. You can as well open a thread to reveal the falsehood in AG doctrines.

@ BERNIMORE, paste the full oficiail JW doctrine and lets trash them one by one. Cerrulos morris is not my role model and will never be. The Bible says we should look unto Jesus (and not morris cerrulos), the author and finisher of our faith.

We have issues with JW doctrine, and their falsehood and that what we r trashing out and expossing here. My post above is the official doctrine of assemblies of God church. You can as well point out any gray area there and let us trash it out.

Your attack on morris cerrulos, whom many AG are havings issues , is diversionary. Lets face church doctrine and compare with teachings (with scripture references). Attack Assemblies of God teachings with Bible references. Oya post ur rejoinder.

@ BERNIMORE (OR BARRISTER), below is AG official doctrine.
The Bible - The entire Bible (Old and New Testaments) is the divinely
inspired truth delivered by God. The
Bible is the ultimate example of how to
live one's life of faith. The Godhead - God the Father, God the Son (Jesus Christ), and God the Holy
Spirit, are three distinct persons,
existing in a unified form as one body.
God is the creator and sustainer of the
universe. He is revealed in the Bible. He
is eternal, with no beginning and no end. Jesus Christ was the human
incarnation of God the Father. He was
born of the virgin Mary. He lived a sinless
life and died by crucifixion for the sins of the world. He was resurrected from
the dead on the third day and exalted to
heaven with God. The Holy Spirit is the
essence of God which moves among the
people, touching believers here on
Earth. The Church - The church is the Body of Christ here on Earth. Its mission is to
spread the word of God to all the
nations. The Future - In the near future Jesus Christ will return to claim his bride, the church. This event is called the Rapture of the Church. Current and past
Christians will be taken to live with
Christ forever. Later Christ will return to
earth in the Second Coming of Jesus Christ. Holy Communion - Believers commemorate Christ's Last Supper here
on Earth. The bread and wine are
symbolic representations of the body
and blood of Jesus, offered in sacrifice
for the sins of the world. Read more
about Communion. Water Baptism - Believers take part in water baptism by complete immersion.
This is a public showing of one's
acceptance of Jesus Christ as Lord and
Savior. Read more about Baptism. 1. We believe the Scriptures are inspired
by God. 2. We believe there is One True God
revealed in three persons. 3. We believe in the deity of the Lord
Jesus Christ. 4. We believe man willingly fell into sin –
ushering in evil and death, both
physical and spiritual, into the world. 5. We believe every person can be
restored to fellowship with God
through accepting Christ's offer of
forgiveness and salvation. 6. We believe in Water Baptism by immersion after salvation, and Holy Communion as a symbolic remembrance of Christ's suffering and
death for our salvation. 7. We believe the Baptism in the Holy Spirit is a special experience following salvation that empowers believers for
witnessing and effective service. 8. We believe the initial evidence of the
Baptism in the Holy Spirit is speaking in tongues as experienced on the Day of Pentecost. 9. We believe sanctification initially
occurs at Salvation, but is also a progressive lifelong process. 10. We believe the church has a mission to
seek and save all who are lost in sin. 11. We believe a divinely called and
biblically ordained leadership ministry
serves the church. 12. We believe divine healing of the sick
is a privilege for Christians today and
is provided for in Christ's atonement. 13. We believe in the Blessed Hope - when
Jesus raptures his church prior to his
return to Earth. 14. We believe in the millennial reign of
Christ when Jesus returns with his
saints at his second coming and
begins his rule over earth for 1,000
years. 15. We believe in a final judgment for
those who have rejected Christ. 16. We believe in a new heavens and a
new earth that Christ is preparing for
all people who have accepted Him.
christianity.about.com/od/assembliesofgod/a/assemblybeliefs.htm

BERNIMOORE: You are not aware even when you were noticed, why do you have your awareness travel suddenly when faced with this facts, see the facts as it rolls out, the wiki link beneath;

Assemblies of God Church

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unfulfilled_Christian_religious_predictions#Assemblies_of_God_Church

During World War I, 1914–1918 The Weekly Evangel, an official publication of the Assemblies of God, carried this prediction:

"We are not yet in the Armageddon struggle proper, but at its commencement, and it may be, if students of prophecy read the signs aright, that Christ will come before the present war closes, and before Armageddon...The war preliminary to Armageddon, it seems, has commenced.

After the prophecy failed, and then, Assemblies of God's light gets brigther and brigther, they see more prophecies,

"Other editions of Weekly Evangel of April 10, 1917 edition, page 3 speculated that the end would come no later than 1934 1935.

May 13, 1916 pp 6–9 prophecy future date after previous ones failed

Are your church's leaders false prophets or not? im not saying that maybe the are wrong or you admitting that they are wrong, but are they reliable? even when May 13 of weekly evangel, 1916 pp 6–9 prophecy future date after previous ones failed

answer please, im not a lawyer as you try to sell, concentrate on the topic

false prophet yes or no

I didnt say u r a lawyer but ur second ID on nairaland is BARRISTER. Stop playing prank.

The link u provided mentioned failed predictions made by churches, Assemblies of God and JW inclusive. But u will agree with me that many AG member are not even aware that such predictions were made and will readily accept mistakes made in their article. Can watchtower accept that their 1914 official doctrine is wrong? No.

I can tell u that those members that made the publications of 1914 were not led by the Spirit, so they got it wrong. Can u, as a JW correct ur leader for making mistakes, be it false prediction or false teachin? No, u will be disfellowshipped. Do u see the difference?

Ok JMAN05, did God subject the world to any angel (Heb 2:5)?

JMAN05: I dont want to divert the discussion to rapture. Good you ve identified that it is Jesus' voice that will raise the dead. How then will Jesus come with that voice and you dodge and shift it to another person? You said Jesus will be replaced? No bible support for that. God's prophesy always fulfills, it wont change cos of you. Jesus was described as the one coming and with that his voice as he stated at John 5:28, 29. It will be hilarious to say he borrowed a lower angel's voice, wouldnt it?

For the Hebrews, let me move to your next response.

I knw u have been programmed by the watchtower organization never to believe anything outside their falsehood.

If u read my response again u will realize that i said that the descension of the Lord will be heralded by an arch-angel voice. Dont lie on a electronic media.

The book of Heb 1:6 of ur NWT says 'let ALL angels do obeisance to him'. ALL angels without an exception (includin angel michael). Okay lemme ask u a question, is angel Michael not among all the angels?

Dont let the lies from watchtower stop u from comprehending a simple verse.

JMAN05: You know you have not clarified your wrong prediction?

I am not aware that Assemblies of God made any prediction concerning 1914. If they do, they are wrong.

All the failed predictions of JW, watchtower will never accept they are wrong, they will rather blame thier 'publishers' for bein over-zealous.

hisblud: My answer is WHY does your translation choose that when it comes to Yahshua, your NWT refuses to use WORSHIP but obeisance but for Demons, dragon, beast, image; it does not hesitate to use the word WORSHIP .... Could this be the doctrines of devils your NWT is promoting, since they prefer to honor demons, the dragon etc with WORSHIP but the risen Lord Yahshua, the wont honor Him with WORSHIP but obeisance? This sound strange!!! True2god etc is it not strange

consider the diagram below HOUSE and make your judge!

http://carm.org/religious-movements/jehovahs-witnesses/new-world-translation-and-proskuneo-worship

Food for thought. The light is getting brighter everyday on who and wat the JW teach and represent.

JMAN05: Since you ve not responded to my reply, I proclaim you gullible and unserious.

I beleive I have responded to ur querry (see my response above).

JMAN05: who was the hebrew first apply to? ur answer.

Pls clarify.

JMAN05: first respond to our discussion on that. whose voice is prophesied to resurrect the dead at John 5:28, 29?

Jesus was speaking about himself. 1thessalonain 4:16 says 'the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trump call of God, and the dead in christ shall rise first, (verse 17) after that, we who are alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the cloud to meet the Lord in the air. And so shall we be with the Lord forever'.

The key word u r interested in is 'with the voice of the archangel'. So lemme explain watchtower wont want u believe.

The coming of the Lord with be with the company of large numbers of angels and the trump call of God. The archangel's voice will herald his coming and the subsequent ressurection of the death while the living will be caught-up in the air to meet the Lord. This is what an average xtain decribe as rapture,tho'watchtower do not believe in it, they only believe in 'the voice of the archangel'. Can u see hw funny they are.

The Bible is not vague here, Hebrews 1:5 says :for which of the angels did God ever say 'You are my son, today i have become ur father...?'. I am sure ur response is 'NONE'. Is an archangel and angel? I am sure ur response will be 'YES'.

The accountant general of the federation is still an accountant, he can be replaced if he fails to perform. An archangel can be replaced, u will agree with me. If Jesus is an an archangel as u claim, then he can be replaced. But, concerning the son, the father says in heb 1:8 'Your throne , O God is, will last for ever and ever and righteosness will be the scepter of your kingdom'.

Christ's throne is forever.

hisblud: confusion mode 3! Personified Wisdom always wit Him yet He created personified Wisdom? Watchtower tinz, mistake manifestation. Achtung! Alert! Mistake correction committee take note.

I cant laff, do u understand deutch?

This JW always confusin demselves whenever they meet any formidable challenge against their 'light is getting brighter' false teachings.

Expect more confusions from them, more question are coming for them.

italo: Was Angel Michael existing in the form of God?

Thats a nice question but expect another mega-twist or lie cos u will surely get a response albeit wrong and irrelevant to ur question.

italo: I dey come, i go give you quotes my MB is too low for me to be searching now. Patience.

Guy u better dont waste ur preciou time and MB looking for any PDF or proof. Give him the date, year of the publication and the page number. Let him do his research himself cos he will tell u another thing.

His name is BARRISTER in another moniker, so he is not a new friend to me on Nairaland.

hisblud: Do angels deserve worship?

According to JW, angels can worship arch-angel micheal cos he is a special angel that God had reserve for worship. Unfortunately thats a wrong teaching.

In order to solidify the point, arch-angel michael must be Jesus christ. The Bible however did not teach that, but watchtower does. All God's angel, angel michael inclusive, should worship the son (Heb 1:6).

BERNIMOORE: @true2God

you are a member of the Assemblies Of God church, i have all the facts, the pdf and screenshut of your discussions from someone,

i dont want to derail the thread, but i want you to come out with a clean hand before you attack another organisation of something you are guilty of.

so answer this;

did your church Assemblies Of God church prophecy armaggedon in 1914, and then changed to a latter date when armageddon did not come?

and again,

your weekly journal 'weekly evangel' of the assemblies of God evidently show all these changes, even in wikipedia

true or false?

just say that im wrong!

we have a long way to go here!

Welcome Barrister, long time. On my way to the office, will trash ur falsehood later.

As a take away is Jesus angel michael?

hisblud: laffing so loudly. To true2god, you agree that Christ was wisdom in proverb, yet a Person but on another breath you claim that Holy Spirit is an "it" and impersonal thing! How laughable! Do you agree that wisdom is an "it", an impersonal thing?



please stay on context, here it literarily said Holy Spirit said not Jesus!

Ya, they interprete Bible at their own convenience.

The Bible described the Holy spirit as 'a tongue of fire', 'as a dove', 'as a mighty rushing wind', 'as a pillar of fire', depending on the circumstamces God wants him to function.

Jesus in his word said all sins are forgivable except sin against the Holy spirit. This means someone can sin against the Holy spirit. My brother u cant sin against electric current or battery (as JW describe the holy spirit ). Peter ask y ananais he choose to lie against the Holy spirit (acts 5:3-4). Can u lie against\to electric current? No. Paul said 'the Spirit bearin witness with our spirit'. Can electric current bear witness? No
In summary only a living bein can 'bear witness', 'be lied against\to', 'be sinned against', etc.

Where JW sees the Holy spirit as an electricity is baffling. All in a bid to debunk trinity at all cost. But wat they fail to understand is that their is only one , the father of all. The concept of trinity is espoused in teachin commission of baptising them in the name (not names) of the father(God) and of the son (Jesus) and of the holy spirit (the comforter). The three are one in purpose but different in identity. And many Bible verses rendered the deity of christ and the personality of the Holy spirit (the holy spirit said 'separate me paul and barnabas').

JMAN05: It said that wisdom was produced, so saying it is talking about ordinary wisdom, will be saying that God lacked wisdom sometime ago. this is impossible.

Do u mean God has ordinary and non-ordinary wisdom? No! God never lack wisdom and the wisdom of God is Jesus (Prov 8:22).

Who created heaven and earth (Gen 1:1)? God created everything without any assistance or a third party. The Bible did not teach 'God created Jesus and Jesus created every other thing'. This is watchtower unbiblical teaching. John chapter 1 said all thing were made by him (God). This same Jesus was called the mighty God (capital 'G') by Isaiah 9:6, John introduced him as being with God the father from the begining (John 1:1), God himself called him God (heb 1:, God commaneded all angels (including angel michael ) to worship him (heb 1:6).

All this things will not make sense to u, until u close the watchtower magazines and open ur Bible only, as a final authority.

JMAN05: Dont insert wisdom there, just say Jesus. because the wisdom there stands for Jesus. Ya, there was a time God was alone before He created Jesus as the above shows.

No brother, I am playing by your rule. You said wisdom, as used in proverbs 8:22-30, is talking about Jesus. In order words God's wisdom (which he used in creation from ages)=Jesus. So my question to u is this, had there been anytime this Wisdom had not been with the father? Remember Isaiah said God ALONE lay the foundation of the earth, no external support nor consultant. If God alone lay the foundation what role does God's wisdom play in laying this creation process?

And you will agree with me that God does not have ordinary and extra ordinary wisdom. God's wisdom is cannot be humanly described cos men's wisdom is nothing compare to God's.

Can u separate me from my wisdom? No! My wisdom is part and parcel of me that makes me a complete entity. Jesus (God's wisdom) said 'i am in the father and the father is in me'. I hope u get where i am going now (read Isaiah 9:6, Heb 1:8, John 1:1, 2tim 3:16).

hisblud: @true2god i could not help myself to laf out load at your question to jman and here how jman answers

jman dilema lol if he claims Christ (wisdom) was ONLY created at the beginning, it means God was "clueless" before creating Christ. If he claims wisdom (Christ) has always been wit God, it means Christ (wisdom) has always been with God thus He is ... A Person with God! Hehe hehe laf and enjoying this thread.

I wanted him to reconcile the wisdom in Proverb 8:22-30 with John 1:1-12 but he's dodgin as usual.

JMAN05: Jehovah used Jesus to create other things after He created him.

Prov. 8:22-30
" Jehovah himself produced me as the beginning of his way, the earliest of his achievements of long ago. 23 From time indefinite I was installed, from the start, from times earlier than the earth. 24 When there were no watery deeps I was brought forth as with labor pains, when there were no springs heavily charged with water. 25 Before the mountains themselves had been settled down, ahead of the hills, I was brought forth as with labor pains, 26 when as yet he had not made the earth and the open spaces and the first part of the dust masses of the productive land. 27 When he prepared the heavens I was there; when he decreed a circle upon the face of the watery deep, 28 when he made firm the cloud masses above, when he caused the fountains of the watery deep to be strong, 29 when he set for the sea his decree that the waters themselves should not pass beyond his order, when he decreed the foundations of the earth, 30 then I came to be beside him as a master worker, and I came to be the one he was specially fond of day by day, I being glad before him all the time,"

Scholars identifed this person as Jesus as wisdom personified in view of the similar statements made about him in other bible portions. Col.1:15-16

U make a bit sense here, though u attempted to personified wisdom as christ but if u read through the entire chapter of Proverbs chapter 8, u will understand that it stressed the importance of wisdom in creation (prov 8:22-30) and on our daily lives (prov 8:32-36).

Now going by ur teaching, that the personified wisdom of God, according to the text is Jesus. Ok let me ask you as simple question, is there any time that God was without wisdom (Jesus, compare the text with John 1:1-12)? Let us assume that the wisdom of God is the word of God, because a man's wisdom is sysnonymous to his spoken word.

Is there any time that God was without wisdom (Jesus, the word)?

JMAN05: enjoy

http://www.jw.org/en/jehovahs-witnesses/faq/are-jehovahs-witnesses-christians/

Since u dont wanna be direct u have to re-direct me to someone\organization to assist you answer question. Thats not a good response cos ur relationship with God does not depend on ur relationship with any human organization. The same human organization that have made a collosal errors in the past, and even present, cannot be ur advocate.

Man u need think for ursef once and stop putting ur spiritual life in the hand of deceptive organization who changes doctrines evry 10yrs and tell u the 'light is getting brigter' and switch back to the old teachings in another 10yrs.

They are false apostles!

Ok are you born again (John 3:16) or is it only 144, 000 pple are meants to be born again, the number which was attained in 1935 when the population of JW was estimated to be within the range of that figure.