₦airaland Forum

Empiree:
forget it. For the fact that you got infos from net was enough evidence.




You have just said the truth, that they are Christian criminals prior to beeing jailed and Islam reforms them. That's all I need. That's all I have been saying. You didn't need to quote "CRIMINALS". They are indeed CHRISTIAN CRIMINALS at the time of their arrest. Thanks for speaking the truth.



Story story. Yes, they are disgruntled because of unfair and biased pro CHRISTIAN LAWS.



now that pressure is up you begin to speak the truth. You are just agreeing with everything I have been saying all along. But you acted like Christians can not be terrorists and criminals. Thanks for speaking the truth. Don't switch mouth again




Lie. There are Christians in Saudi. They simply have their community and their population is low. But the reason they are not famous is the same reason Muslims aren't famous in vatican. Plus, 1+1+1=1 according to Christians.

But according to Muslims 1+1+1=3.

So no educational sector would hire Christians to teach pupils mathematics because it is a recipe for disaster. This is the reason Saudi Arabia could not tolerate them to gain ground and teach their children 3nity

No person who don't use the Internet, either for learning or research works unless you are not educated. You lied that I listed all my points from the Wikipedia and I asked you to produced the URL which you have failed to do. As I said earlier, I will repeat again, stop making a claim you cannot defend.

In any society we will surely have criminal elements and there is nothing anyone can do about it. The only thing the govt will do is to create a correctional system (or prison system) to reform them. Most criminal elements in the US that are imprisoned, or even the mainstream society, find Islam attractive. You can hardly see any decent American that finds Islam attractive. What does this tell you? Islam appeals to criminals and find them as easy recruits to drive Islamic agenda in the US. Over 90% Muslim converts in the US are from the prison system.

The Christian legal system is the fairest worldwide; all men are seen as equal irrespective of race or religious affiliation. No wonder Muslims will rather choose (or go to ) the Christian west over any Islamic country to settle down and make a career and a living. Over 90% of Muslims will rather choose the US or Britain instead of Saudi Arabia or Iran. Why? Muslim countries are not conducive for decent and sane mind.

The Islamic Sharia makes Muslims superior to non-muslims. Christians are second class citizens in Saudi Arabia. No Saudi citizen will retain his citizenship status if he leaves Islam. He will either be jailed or killed. Can you mention the so-called Christian community in Saudi Arabia?

Saudi Arabia cannot tolerate Christianity yet you claimed there is a Christian community in Saudi Arabia? Nawa for you bro! You just buttressed my point, Islam is the most intolerant and violent ideology worldwide. Where is the principle of tolerance after all Quran 2: 256 said 'there is no compulsion in religion? Oh sorry, allahh had changed his mind in Quran 9:29, fight the Christians and the Jews.

Asalama lekum!

I missed Empiree, where is he?

Empiree:
I'm gonna give you benefit of the doubt. I read something similar in Wikipedia while we post back n forth. You might read it as well and then you paraphrased in your own way.



First all, you are still not getting it. You are saying most African Americans are muslim converts. That's true. But this is not line of argument. What I'm saying is they are usually non muslims prior to been convicted criminals. They converted in prison which means they weren't muslim before then. What part of that you don't understand?.

Now you said well educated Africa Americans don't convert to Islam?. So Muhammad Ali or Malcolm x, who memorized 4000 words and meanings from the dictionary in prison was not educated?. That side. How about bunch of white muslim converts like cat Stephen, Yusuf Estes (former Christian minister) and many more, are they criminals too?.

You try to say Islam only attracts criminals but you failed to mention Christians who have been jailed.

Majority of those basketball players who are African Americans are Christians like LeBron james, but only when they get in trouble and sent to jail and they convert to Islam, then you realize they are criminals?


But when they are playing and earning you attribute Christianity to them forgetting that they committed crimes while they are Christian. I know the drill. How about CONVICTED CHRISTIAN Michael Vick who was sentenced to 23 months in prison for dog fighting, he invoked Jesus Christ after his released and pledged not do that again in Jesus name...amen. How about CONVICTED CHRISTIAN movie star like Wesley Snipe who was jailed for tax fraud. You are so senseless. And you are yet to address all those white Christians who carried out all mass shootings in the US. Those are muslims too?.



Bigot spotted. Sensible readers know you are a bigot. So Samuel Shrophisire and millions like him are not rationally minded?. You are incredible. Mr. Shrophisire is American from North Carolina. He's muslim convert.



You are so ignorant. Many american converts live in Saudi currently, especially those rappers

I will really appreciate if you can provide the Wikipedia link which I paraphrased to build my argument. To be fair with you, I never say I haven't gotten any material from the internet; over 90% of what I wrote is my personal opinion.

On the black American converts, what I said is that most of them are Christian 'criminals' prior being arrested. Islam in prison only help them to fraternise and create a sense of brotherhood. Watch many American prison life to see how it works. Angry and disgruntled black criminals are easily attracted to Islam. It is part of human behavior; you are attracted to a group/organization that suits your social/human behaviour. Islam give them a spiritual angle to their inate lifestyle.

Lebron James, and many other black stars, can also become Muslim, especially when the system goes against him and he becomes disgruntled. 95% of African-american Muslim converts are disgruntled elements. Mention a single popular black American Muslim convert who is not a disgruntled element to the American govt, especially with respect to race relation?

And don't get me wrong, we have 1000s of African-americans who are Christians and are serving jail terms.

You have to google the internet in search of American converts to Islam, cut the crap bro. The US is almost 500 million in population and you will surely see many converts on the internet. The good news is that they are protected by the 1st Amendment which guaranteed religious freedom. Can a Christian convert remain in Saudi Arabia without being killed or jailed? Is there religious freedom in Saudi Arabia?

Samunique:
Wow!!!

Bravo ! Bravo !! Bravo !!!

U deserve a doctorate degree !!!

I like the way u're tutoring this man .

Bravo once again !

He is my boy, I will continue tutoring him till he open his mind and heart to reality.

I appreciate bro.

Empiree:
You are a liar. Come to US. Average African Americans on the streets are not Muslim. Maybe you can say 1 in every 10 households in America is a Muslim. I agree. But large number of African Americans are Southern Christian baptists. Of course in this day and age, many of them are familiar with Islam due to family relation and exposure to immigrant muslims.

But you copied nonsense on the internet to convince me would not work. Wikipedia tries to protect Christianity by excusing the religion from prison converts. But in reality, many African Americans are Christians and bear Christian and English names. What you posted from Google is fraud

Bro, if you search through the internet from now till next year you will never see any of what I just wrote on the internet. I am not dull bro; I am more than an average person when it comes to academic and intellectual discipline. I wrote over 99% of what you read, except the internet link I attached which has to do with atheism in Saudi Arabia. If you can search the internet and show me where I copied what I wrote from I will send you a recharge card of 1k ( I know you are far bigger than that).

I seriously can't understand the point you tried to make. I still however maintained that most African-american Muslim converts are either not-yet arrested criminals, prisoners and ex-convicts. You can hardly see a hardworking, well educates, easy-going, focused and success-driven African-american who converted to Islam. I don't say it's impossible, but very very rare.

Islam is not made for a critically and rationally-minded person bro, unless you are born into Islam or grow up in an Islamic society.

Even the African-american ex-convicts, over 80% of them leave Islam within 5-10 years. Thank God they are in the US and not Saudi Arabia.

Empiree:
Pope's remarks was met with reprisal verbal attack by americans. I watched african american guy that time who embrace islam on his live youtube criticism of pope. I have been searching for the video but it seems it is removed. So now, does his remarks carried any weight now in 2018?. Absolutely not.



Dont get it twisted. They were christian criminals before they went to jail. They were jailed while christians. Most of those average americans are christians including mass shooters, common criminal, adulterers, gamblers, pornstars, alcoholics, robbers,bandits you name it. Whether they are practicing christians or not, bottom line is they are christians and commit crimes and sent to jail. They were reformed in prison by Islam. So yes, most African american christians are convicted criminals until they embrace islam. In most cases they belong to baptist church.



No, they have always been criminals while christian. Stop twisting. Islam reforms them. It is in prison they get attracted to islam and clean up themselves. Malcolm x comes to mind.


Any unbiased mind reading your post knows that you are false. It is common knowledge that they embrace islam after been convicted as christians.



Propaganda



The biggest criminals GWB and Blair. Co-conspirators and unindicted christian terrorists. How about that. Maybe you can say Bush embrace islam too.

You argue like a kid but I believe you are an adult.

Let's look at issue of African-american Muslim converts again. The blacks in the US are made up of about 13% of the population, about 50 million people. The population of blacks in the American prison system is almost 45% of the entire prison population which is a high when you look at the normal demographics of all blacks in the US vis-à-vis their representation in the prison yards. This means that there are enough blacks for Muslims to convert outside the prison system. Why are Muslim missionaries channelling their energies to convert incarcerated African-americans?

1) Most black prisoners are not educated and over 90% didn't even finish high school. Muslim nations/communities are the least educated worldwide. So it is natural for the uneducated elements in the US to embrace Islam.

2) Islam as a religion has a great appeal to anyone who is rebellious. If you want to go against a social order and want to have a religious angle to the struggle, you need Islam to achieve that. It is very easy to fight any govt if you play Muslim card very well. No wonder most popular civil right activist choose Islam.

3) Islam does not reform a man, it only make you have a family of like-minds. Most American Muslim converts retain their criminal elements after leaving the prison system.

4) It is very hard to convince an average educated African-american, who is not in prison, to accept Islam because they have more rational view of an ideology than the illiterate and the uneducated ones. The more educated an Africa-American is, the lower the tendency that he will convert to Islam.

5) Most African-american Muslims were outlaws, even without a prison experience, before accepting Islam. The religion assist them exhibit their full macho-man lifestyle which Christianity might restrict them.

6) Lastly, Christian 'criminal' are potential Muslim converts. Islam offer them the freedom to express themselves better without much control and also assist form a cult-like association with their fellow converts. It is all about the continuation of the brotherhood outside the prison system.

Go and watch the movie OX and you will see how Islamic brotherhood operates in American prisons, especially among the black convicts.

If you look at the life of Muhammad and his sahabas it is not different from the life of African-american muslim black convicts; looting, killing and raping of people who are not in the brotherhood (Qur'an 8:60, 9:29, 8:39, sahih Bukhari 4:52:220).

Empiree:
He apologized and retracted his statements. It was after that he went to Istanbul to pray salat at the mosque even though his prayer was just exercise because he was not a Muslim. So why did you bring back statements he already regretted?. To score cheap point?.




true but then, they created awareness. The reason their population of muslims is still low is due to media. It is information struggle. Yet, every American you see would like to eat Halal food They know halal has to do with Islam. So awareness was created. And most of the African American Christian criminals in US jail usually embrace Islam and come out of prison as pure muslims and abandon Pauline Religion called Christianity.

You don't understand the psychology of human behavior. A negative remark made concerning a person/group under a peaceful and tranquil atmosphere is usually the truth statement. The Pope made an honest opinion about Islam and the entire Muslim world went hysterical, looting and burning churches, the trademark of Islam and the prophet. For peace to reign and to calm the nerves of hysterical Muslims, he had to issue an apology. The fact remained he made his opinion about Islam known and was removed from the office as a result. No wonder the current Pope Francis will go any length to kiss the ass of the Muslims; this what the globalists and the Soros-funded organization controlling the world order asked him to do. The current Pope is the worst Pope in the history of the papacy; a leftist to the core doing the bid of the global mafia.

Thank God that you also identified that most African-american Muslims are ex-convicts. Most of them accepted Islam in the prison. What does that tell you? Islam is a very attractive religion for people that have criminal tendencies. Islam allow criminals to view themselves as victims of a wrong system instead of taking responsibility for their negative actions or past. 90% of American Muslims are either convicted armed robbers, thieves, murderer or a gang leader. Islam allow them to exhibit their real personality without any iota of conscious.

Take a look at Mike Tyson, Muslim convert (now plant and sell cannabis), Malcom X (assassinated by his fellow nation of Islam member), Mohammed Ali (went to jail for civil disobedience), etc.

Locally, look at Asari Dokubo, a Muslim convert now a hardened criminal and a jihadist.

Thank you for noticing this trend.

Empiree:
This is the video that surfaced online weeks ago. I didn't tell you I was definitive. No one has been able to confirm authenticity of the pope look-alike old man at haj.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uoqFp2ZAF7k

It was said he was invited by Saudi authority to perform this year's Hajj. If this is pope Benedict 16, do you actually expect mainstream Christian terrorists media to propagate it?. If they did, that's the beginning of the end of the largest Christian sect, Catholic

I personally don't think he's.

You don't win an argument by peddling rumours and unsubstantiated news. You win an argument by presenting a hard fact and not conjectures.

The major reason Pope Benedict XVI was forced to stand down and resign was his conservative and occasional controversial views. He said Islam was spread with sword and that there is nothing Mohammed brought except tears, blood and sorrow.

Even if the Pope becomes a Muslim today it wont change nothing. In the 1960s high profile African-Americans such as Malcolm X, Elijah Mohammed, Mohammed Ali, etc, became Muslims yet less than 2% of African-americans are Muslims today. A high profile convert is only good for Islamic propaganda and nothing more.

As a take away, always verify your source before spreading a false news. You don't use propaganda to win a debate.

Empiree:
rubbish

Do you still believe that Pope Benedict XVI has 'reverted' to Islam? Will you condemn your mosques and madrasas for spreading lies?

Empiree:
HYPOCRITE!!!!

Atheists DENIED Jesus Christ


Maybe you could be of help to this former pastor who is currently facing persecution by Christians.

Gullible Muslims; easy to scam. Igbo hustlers scamming you guys big time; when will you learn?

You are shifting goal post bro. You lied that former Pope Benedict had become a Muslim I bursted your lies and you pretended you never saw my response.

You also claimed that many Christians are turning atheist and I gave you the Saudi example you pretended you never saw it. Please help me respond to your Muslim brothers turning atheist and are being called terrorist for that. In Islam atheism = terrorism, can you see Islamic mind?

Did Uthman ibn Affan burn the Quran or not? Did Mohammed compile the Quran by himself before his death, as a single book as being used today? I know you won't respond.

OK, I have also become a muslim, please open my own bank account as well. I wanna start getting credit alert ASAP; man must wack.

Empiree:
You have been told the context of the hadith you decided to look the other way. So it is a waste of time going over this. For record, origin of shahada did not start with the hadith in question. Origin of shahada is in the sura 112 which preaches tawheed (Oneness of God). This the foundation of shahada and it was revealed in Mecca before any war. This is what muslim chanted around Mekkah while facing persecution.

As for Matthew 28:19, this is a fraud. Jesus didnt write this. It was Matthew or some other writer because it is clear that not all christians believe trinity. This passage indicates trinity. Unitarian christianity reject trinity.



What goes around comes around. Thats why, with help of internet, most atheists you see today were once christians. They are rejecting christianity in drove. And there is news going around that your retired Pope Benedict 16 renounced christianity and have made pilgrimage to Makkah. I saw the video of him in Mecca but I can not confirm its authenticity. And i dont expect mainstream media to report it. It was said that this was the reason he stepped down from Papal.

No one tells you that islamic book history are 100% accurate. They were written by human without supervision of the prophet(saw). Since we understood this, it is easy for us to discern falsehood from truth using Quranic standard

It is never a crime to be an atheist in the Christian world. Atheism, though I don't subscribe to it, is not a physical or social threat to any society. God has given everyone a divine right to 'freedom of conscious and belief'.

However, the Muslim world are against human freedom, especially with respect to religious and taught freedom. The Qur'an (9:29) and the hadith (sahih Muslim 33) are against religious and taught freedom. This is the reason Saudi Arabia equates atheism with terrorism. In Saudi Arabia, all terrorist are to be executed, and atheist are included. How do you want all Saudi atheist to come out publicly and declare their disbelief in allahh and his messenger?

See links below on the consequence of atheism in Saudi Arabia;

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/saudi-arabia-declares-all-atheists-are-terrorists-in-new-law-to-crack-down-on-political-dissidents-9228389.html

Saudi to kill an atheist, see link below:

https://iheu.org/humanists-call-saudi-arabia-release-man-sentenced-death-atheism/

Please bro, don't tell me that the Saudis are not true Muslims, a constant Muslims' comical excuse. So how do you want Muslim atheist to come out openly to declare themselves as atheist, knowing fully what they stand to lose? All atheist in the Muslim world are being hunted and killed like wild animals in obedience to allahh's instructions (Qur'an 9:29).

You said the former pope secretly became a Muslim. I like Muslims because lying, in Islam, is the 7th pillar of islam, after Jihad. I am not surprised. Pope Benedict was forced to resign for telling the truth about the murderous tendencies in Islam. The Papal authority saw his stance against Islam as being to politically incorrect and a serious threat to Christian-muslim coexistence. See links below:

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-21417767

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/europe/09/15/pope.islam/index.html

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/14846353/ns/world_news-europe/t/west-bank-churches-struck-after-pope-remarks/


Will you now apologize for lying against Pope Benedict? Anyway don't bother, Mohammed had taught you how to lie to the kafirs; it is acceptable in Islam as long as it is for the benefit of allahh and his messenger.

You said no one says that the history of Islam is 100% correct because it was written by men. You are right. The Quran and the hadith were also written by men. The Qur'an was not compiled by Mohammed but by the sahabas more than 20yrs after his death. Uthman ibn Affan, who compiled the current Quran, burnt all other copies of the Quran he did not agree with. Mohammed will be amazed if handed the current Quran in circulation. He will surely reject it as having nothing to do with it.

Asalama lekum!

Empiree:
After 1400years?. It's there anything new that we don't know?.

Yes because over 90% of Muslims are ignorant of Islami and Islamic history. Over 80% Islamic source documents are codified in Arabic hence making it difficult for Muslims, and none Muslims alike, to understand the imperial nature of Islamic. The internet age is however unmasking and decoding Islamic 'coded' teachings which were, before now, hidden from the kafir.

Muslims are now on constant damage control mode after we non-muslims started reading and de-coding Islamic coded, and mafia-like, teachings and practices. Some 30-yrs ago all hadith from Bukhari and Muslim are sahih (authentic) but today the disingenuous Muslims have categorized their so-called sahih hadith' into:

1. Strong hadith

2. Weak Hadith

3. Fabricated hadith.

Ironically, all these 'classes' of hadith are in the same book called sahih (authentic) Bukhari or sahih Muslim. What a shame!

As for sirah rasool allahh, some Muslims, especially non-arab Muslims are in a denial mode. Islamic books must be rejected; the honour of the apostle of allahh must be protected. Muslims are also denying Islamic history by Altabari. We are getting there, the next the Muslims will reject is the Qur'an itself (the poster face of Islam).

Empiree:
stop your trash. Shahada has nothing to do with war on kufar. This is your own twist. Declaration Of Faith is just a way of Christian baptism. You baptise to be born again, right?. So in Islam, you take shahada and enter the fold of Islam and then take bath afterwards. What's that nonsense you are trying to attach to it.

And Luke 19:27 of the NT, is equally violent as OT. JESUS supported OT letter by letter. Therefore, Luke 19:27 is not parable. It means exactly what it says. It is your fraudulent pastors and Bishop, and pope that interpreted it in parable version. Not Jesus

You like making unrelated references, you are not a good student of research. However for the purpose of this discussion, I will always be of help to you.

Baptism was never instructed with a caveat for war and destruction, unlike the shahada. It quite funny that all the while you pretended as if you never saw the hadith I quoted with regards to the origin of the shahada. Anyway, let's compare Christian baptism with Islamic shahada;

Matthew 28:19 New International Version (NIV)
Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.

See the clause: 'go and make disciples (preach and no threat of war) of all nations'.

Now let us look at the Islamic shahada:

sahih Muslim 33:

It has been narrated on the authority of Abdullah b. 'Umar that the Messenger of Allah said: I have been commanded to fight against people till they testify that there is no god but Allah, that Muhammad is the messenger of Allah, and they establish prayer, and pay Zakat and if they do it, their blood and property are guaranteed protection on my behalf except when justified by law, and their affairs rest with Allah

Can you see the difference between Jesus' mandate and Mohammed's threat? How can you even compare the two instructions; one for peace and the second for war.

I know you will ignore as usual, is sahih Muslim a weak or fabricated hadith (Muslims' denial strategy)?

Empiree:
Look, you quoted Hadith and you want me to explain to you. Even though I knew before hand that you were not interested in my explanation, this was the reason I drew parallel example from contemporary world system of govt. But instead you came up with their system is not about religion. But you forgot that they separated religion from State but they maintained their religious status which means they are still influenced by their Christian religion one way or the other. I simply used similarity btw their system and Islamic system.

I sensed you would reject my analysis was the reason I said that the hadith you cited was in the context of military classification not a general rule. Please go back and re-read if you missed it. The Hadith in that context is mostly referring to Quraishi people who were fighting the prophet (saw) and the Muslims. I explained this to username before. Here I found this short video to buttress my position.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Coo6Po_7STk&t=323s

But if you insist that the Hadith is present continuous tense, then, the Hadith is perfectly in harmony with this Bible verse. They have the exact same undertones


Jesus said in Luke 19:27


"But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them--bring them here and kill them in front of me."



Just has the Hadith you quoted is literal, this Bible verse is literal. There is nothing metaphorical about it at all. It is direct because you believe that Jesus is coming back to take the believers (Christians) to heaven, and fight and kill non-believers (Muslims).


But if you reject this explaination, I will ask you if Luke 19:27 is past tense, present tense or future tense?


What is Jesus coming back to do?. Is he going to love his enemies and take them too to paradise or fight and kill them for not believing in him as Son of God according to your belief?.

It seems we are saying the same thing but from different angles. As I said earlier, and as you rightly concurred, the shahada is a wartime declaration imposed upon the non-muslims who were forced to join the Muslim ummah or die (Qur'an 9:28-30, sahih Bukhari 4:52:196 and sahih Muslim 33).

My point is this, why saying the shahada since the ummah is no longer fighting the kafir, at least for now? You tired making a parallel between the US oath of citizenship but I smoked your ass, hope you won't do that again.

On Muslims' popular biblical verse, to create a moral relativism between righteous Jesus and evil Mohammed, you quoted:

Jesus said in Luke 19:27
"But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them--bring them here and kill them in front of me."

Can you please read the entire chapter of Luke 19 and see how disingenuous an average Muslim is?

Samunique:
Bros u are wondeful, your scholarly is legendary !!!
I've been following this debate with keen interest and I must confess u and enilove with the other guy plainbibletruth ( I can't remember his moniker precisely ) u've done a very great job here.
thanks so much and God bless all of u !

I'm also a former Muslim, pls I will be very happy if can mail me some ebooks that can be of help to me in dealing with these our brothers, cause I know I av a lot to do that area.

Thanks !!!

Thanks bro! My post is to stimulate Muslims to think about their religion. It is not about 'Empire' but other Muslims that mind have an open mind to alternative view, contrary to the traditional Islamic narrative. Many Muslims I debated have no feet to stand on their religion and some have left Islam.

Empire is only acting 'Superman' and refused to abandon the traditional Islamic narrative. Whenever he is faced with indisputable fact, he got confused and at the same time become more unyielding. It is all about his personal ego and the protection of Islam and Mohammed.

Thanks once more bro!

Empiree:
bro, you started it and i played you along. I have given you bilateral examples. Take it or leave it.. Islam doesn't force you as a non Muslim to take shahada before you enjoy everything Muslims enjoy. Your are the one that brought issue of shahada as precondition for peace and enyoment. I will continue to play along with your head.

Don't put words into mouth; I can't reminder telling you that shahada is a prerequisite for peace and harmony, you said so.

Do you now repudiate the fact that saying the shahada is the condition for peace to reign between the Muslims and the kafirs? Do you know Islam better than your prophet and his sahabas?

Empiree:
Listen, im not gonna engage you in any complex arguments to try to convince you Islamically when I know for a fact that you aren't here to reason with anything I have to say. I'm just gonna use similar comparison like I did with usermsne. Now read on below.You see, Western State is earthly reflection of Islamic system. That's, anytime you try to criticize Islam for something I will almost always give you similarities from our contemporary Western world that you love.

Now with respect to the above, that shahada is prerequisite for enjoying peace and harmony with Muslims, it is exact thing with (slight difference) in US for instance. If you leave in US and you speak ill of the country in a manner that doesn't constitute free speech, and you are not citizen, you put yourself at high risk of not only being denied citizenship or your citizenship application rejected but being deported as well.

For you to have guarantee protection of your life and property, if you wanna be citizen, you must make declaration of to be law abiding, to not work against the country with foreign govt, to not spy and not jeopardize the country, and to pay your tax. Sounds familiar, right?.

Therefore, if you violate any of these, you risk being called to testify before the Congress under 5th Amendment to the Constitution in which if you are found guilty or refuse to testify, you go to jail for a long time or get killed if you have indeed committed crimes mentioned above. If you are not citizen, you risk jail and deportation. Sounds familiar with what you criticize Islam for?.

I'm telling you they will put your name on hit list and kill you wherever you may be around the world. Does it sounds familiar with what you accused Islam of?. Do the math yourself.

Their system is modern reflection of the Hadith you criticized. Now the Hadith you cited is under military classification not a general rule. So Shahada (just like declaration of your allegiance to US), and zakat(just like tax in the US), are similar systems from different sides. You will be jailed if you don't file or pay your tax. Which means you violate your allegiance.

So help yourself, buddy.

Islam, unlike the US, is not a country or a race but a belief system, a religion. The shahada you gave was given on the premise that you have believed in the oneness of God and the prophethood of Mohammed, a believe which is quite subjective. A Christian or a Jew, sharing the same country with a Muslim will never say the shahada. No any Muslim country I know make the taking of the shahada a prerequisite for granting citizenship to foreigners. It is like asking a prospective US citizen to say 'the lord's prayer' before he becomes a US citizen. You always make a wrong moral equivalence bro!

You said the shahada is a prerequisite for enjoying peace and harmony with Muslims; I think we are in agreement here. It means if I don't say the shahada in a Muslim-majority country or community, I won't enjoy peace and harmony. You just echoed my point and validated sahih Muslim hadith number 33. Please note that the American constitution, unlike the sharia, is not discriminatory; it does not divide the citizens between the kafir and the ummah. The same rule apply to all because the US constitution takes all citizens as equal; no dhimmi, no ummah. The US system is over 1000% better than allahh's sharia system.

You made mention of zakat, please note that zakat is for only the Muslim ummah. The Christians and the Jews are to pay the jizya with willing submission and feel themselves subdued, under an ideal Islamic system (Quran 9:29, also read the exegesis of this ayah in the tafsir by ibn kathir)

Empiree:
You know why i am not taking your seriously?. bcus you have mind of your own. You are quoting me different contexts entirely but before, you quoted Abu Huraira(ra) that, it is there we got our shahada now you brought entirely another context to buttress your claim and you think i will take you serious? There are bunch of shahada or testimonies mentioned throughout Quran. Sura Imran 18 is a command. You are not my teacher and there is no need for a baby born in muslim or non-muslim homes to make the declaration. He/she is already upon Islam at birth.


Importance Of Declaration Of Faith: It just like you invite people to your wedding. In order to do so you print invitation cards to create awareness. You call pastor to bless your union etc. Why don't you and your fiance simply make wedding wow btw you two only?. The reason you proclaim your wedding is basically for the public to know for various reasons so that the world know who marry who in case either party cheats behind one another's back or major life event changes like death, birth, family ties etc

Similarly in Islam, a non-muslim who is convinced that islam is the truth, it is essentially necessary to publicly affirm his faith in the presence of at least two people. And ofcourse, it is not all mandatory to do so especially if you live in isolated area. The same reason you proclaim your wedding is the same reason you proclaim your shahada so that if muslims see you go to church to worship, or synagogue or elsewhere, so we may question your declaration of faith to begin with.

Again, faith is essentially inside the heart, and God alone is Sufficient but if God knows, let men also know in case we see you go to other houses of worship without muslim presence. Another reason it is very important to declare your faith is because of death which could strike anytime. Muslims are advised to go their county municipal office to clearly state on the Will that they are muslim and in case they pass away, the city will call on muslim community to prepare your burial. Otherwise, the city (which perhaps may be majority non-muslims) will bury you as they wish or according to their religion. So you need to declare your shahada and make it clear on your Will that you are a muslim and want to be buried according to islamic rites.

This has caused confusion in the US at some point where a muslim convert, a son, passed away but he had no will prepared. His family is christian so his mother insisted her son be buried according to christian way. Muslim know too well the guy was muslim and was well known. But Will is a legal document, it is what the city goes by. Muslims were ready to take his body for burial when his mother came and city released the body to his mother. Weeks and months after burial, muslims continued to pressure his family and informed the mother the importance of burying her son islamically and she accepted. The body was exhumed and islamic burial was performed. This is why shahada to God (which is internal) is btw you and God. It is important to let the muslim community know which is what gave birth to public declaration. And it is even more important to let the city you live have the record your of faith, which means you declare your shahada to them too.

And finally, why is this your concern baffles me. After all, muslims declare their faith in islam every single say inwardly and outwardly when we call to adhan and when we pray. So is this your problem?. And Jesus did not order or command baptism. The verse many of you use (John 3:3-7), if this is your evidence, then, Quran also has various speeches like this when it emphasizes Faith in Oneness of God many times.



"Whoever works righteousness, whether male or female, while he (or she) is a true believer (of Islamic Monotheism) verily, to him We will give a good life (in this world with respect, contentment and lawful provision), and We shall pay them certainly a reward in proportion to the best of what they used to do (i.e. Paradise in the Hereafter)." {16:97}




And whoever does righteous good deeds, male or female, and is a true believer in the Oneness of Allah (Muslim), such will enter Paradise and not the least injustice, even to the size of a Naqira (speck on the back of a date­stone), will be done to them. {4:124}



You are not my teacher

Salam alaikum

Can your please explain the caveat in the hadith narrations below:

It has been narrated on the authority of Abdullah b. 'Umar that the Messenger of Allah said: I have been commanded to fight against people till they testify that there is no god but Allah, that Muhammad is the
messenger of Allah, and they establish prayer, and pay Zakat and if they do it, their blood and property are guaranteed protection on my behalf except when justified by law, and their affairs rest with Allah.

What surprises most in this discussion how you intentionally and deliberately ignore the clause below:

.'...and if they do it (shahada and zakat), their blood and property are guaranteed protection on my behalf except when justified by law, and their affairs rest with Allah'.

Can you please shed more light on this clause? Don't pretend as if you can't see it again.

Empiree:
rubbish. But thank God you said shahada is a form of allegiance. We say shahada everyday in salat which means we constantly renew our faith. It is the same if you are a naturalized US citizen, you must declare your allegiance else, you are not a citizen. It is rubbish you said that shahada only valid for sahaba. Now sahaba have gone but Quran is still present. You think you know?. You know nothing

When we call for adhan in masjid everyday, we return our shahada. So I wonder why Christians also baptise new converts. What you don't know you don't know. Stop acting as if you know Islam.


God's Magnificent RESPECT for His prophet Muhammad{saw}

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=404TmGSzFhs

You seems to lack a simple comprehension skill; read the hadith again:

It has been narrated on the authority of Abdullah b. 'Umar that the Messenger of Allah said: I have been commanded to fight against people till they testify that there is no god but Allah, that Muhammad is the messenger of Allah, and they establish prayer, and pay Zakat and if they do it, their blood and property are guaranteed protection on my behalf except when justified by law, and their affairs rest with Allah.

This is where Muslims get the idea of shahada from. You also failed to mention the consequence of failing to recite the shahada: 'there blood and property are not guaranteed'. Whose life and property are not guaranteed? The non-muslims.

It remains a mystery that you deliberately failed to understand that the shahada itself is a wartime proclamation, imposed on non-muslims by Mohammed and his sahabas. If you say the shahada while doing your dally salat that does not nullify its origin. The fact remains shahada is a statement of allegiance to Mohammed the consequence of disobedience which is death.

You compare the shahada with the US' oath of citizenship for naturalized citizens, this is height of Islamic evil. Why making a moral equivalence of unrelated scenario? The first, which is shahada, is to be recited or else your blood and property is not secured under the blood thirsty Muslims while the US oath of citizen has no life consequence. Read the hadith again and don't pretend it is not there.

Baptism was expressly commanded by Jesus for all Christian, without the condition that your blood and property are not safe, why make an unrelated moral equivalence?

Empiree:
this is what you asked for


And you are shown. Shahada is simply testimony of oneones of God and I showed you. Shahad is testimony of messengership of Muhammad(saw) and I showed you.

Listen, you are not ignorant of islam unlike some non-muslims who may be excused and admitted to paradise. But truth is glaring at your face but you stubbornly cling on to falsehood.

There are bunch of places in the Quran where La ilaha ila Allah is mentioned but you said it is not there. Now you switched your question to "where Allah said we should give testimony of faith". Dont you think you are playing yourself?. Listen, you are not playing God with your monkey trick

There is no shahada, Islamic testimony of faith in the Qur'an. There is no place the Quran asked Muslims to recite the shahada before they become a Muslim. See what sahih Muslim hadith number 33 says:

It has been narrated on the authority of Abdullah b. 'Umar that the Messenger of Allah said: I have been commanded to fight against people till they testify that there is no god but Allah, that Muhammad is the messenger of Allah, and they establish prayer, and pay Zakat and if they do it, their blood and property are guaranteed protection on my behalf except when justified by law, and their affairs rest with Allah.

The hadith came up with this article of faith which Muslims were to swear before they can become Muslims. The shahada itself, aside creating partner with allahh with the person of Mohammed (the Qur'an is filled with the phrase 'allahh and his messenger'), is also a false testimony by anyone testifying the creed now.

The shahada itself started with the phrase 'I bear witness'. What are you making a testimony about or bearing witness for? There is no god but allahh and Mohammed is his messenger. The questions arise:

Do you bear witness, testimony, for someone you never met physically? If you are taken to a court of law, on what ground will you bear witness for a person you never saw or knew physically? The shahada is a bad religious creed because no Muslim, after the death of Mohammed, saw him to bear any witness of his prophethood.

The shahada, though a bad religious creed, was meant for his sahabas who knew and saw him, during his lifetime, as a way of paying allegiance to his leadership and also a way to recognizing his leadership authority, as the first leader of the Muslim ummah.

Muslims, who never knew or saw Muslim, yet bearing witness to his prophethood is a sign of religious and legal ignorance. If you know the genesis of the shahada, you will understand that it is a wartime creed that all Muslims are meant to recite in the presence of Mohammed, especially after the conquest of mecca. Once a person does that, his life and property are safe from destruction in the hand of Mohammed's Muslim army (according to the hadith of Bukhari and Muslim).

Let him give you a local scenario you can relate with. In 1967, when the Nigerian soldiers invaded Asaba, all the local indigenes where asked to repeat the words: ONE NIGERIA. To them, that is the shahada they have to say so that their lives and properties will be save in the hands of the Nigerian army.

At peace time and after the death of Mohammed, shahada is pure nonsense, because it was no longer relevant. You use the genesis of a scenario know the reason a particular instruction was given at a particular time. The shahada is a wartime Islamic creed bro!

Asalama lekum!

usermane:
In pure Islam, Hadith are not considered divine or ideal basis for Qur'anic studies. Few hadith may help to understand verses, but the idea that Hadith is indispensable text for studying Qur'an is unfounded.

As Qur'an remain our frame of reference;
1 - Any Hadith contradicting Qur'an is rejected. E.g Qur'an order to say salat aloud V Hadith order to sometimes say salat silently.
2 - Any Hadith prescribing or prohibiting what Qur'an is silent on is negligible at best. E.g Qur'an silence on music and circumcision V Hadith respective prohibition and prescription of them.

This is the only near objective method of grading hadith. The traditionalists' method remain a subjective sham.

Your opinion is subjective here and do not represent the opinion of mainstream Islam. The hadith, just like the Quran, is held in high esteem by all the 5 schools of Islamic jurisprudence. Although there is no divine inspiration attributable to it, the contents of the hadith contains over 80% of Islamic laws and practices. You cannot undermine its importance in Islam just because some hadith narrations speak ill of Mohammed. You have to give them their credit, ditto their bias and inefficiencies.

As a said earlier, if you hand over the Qur'an to a layman on the street, without any hadith or tafsir, the individual will have a serious mental breakdown.

usermane:
A Muslim's Guide To Study Qur'an

In pure Islam, you need to understand Qur'an by yourself. You read it, ponder it. Keep the literary context in mind, it provide any necessary historical context. Relate the verses with other verses even in other chapters.

Ask other Muslims their take on the verses and analyze them, critically analyze writings of alternate scholars, compare numerous translations, double check the Arabic wording of the verses.

Think, think, think. You're not bound by any 'official' interpretation, you decide the most fitting interpretation from your findings. Whatever you resolve, be objective and sincere.

You like throwing the phrase 'in pure Islam'. Are there pure and impure Islam? The fact remains, the Qur'an, by itself, is not coherent without the hadith and the sirah. Most ayah in the Qur'an do not make sense without the hadith to shed light on the context. The so-called scholars of Islam identified this challenge hence they came up with hadith in order to shed more light on any ayah in the Qur'an.

To be honest, most Islamic scholars find the hadith more convenient than the Quran itself. Uthman ibn Affan did a very bad job when compiling this present Quran; many historical context were lost when most of the Hafiz died in the battle of yamama, a year after the death of Mohammed.

To make up for the lost information, the hadith had to be introduced.

Empiree:
You didn't answer my question. What is Shahada?


since you chose not to answer which is very deceitful of you, I see no reason to waste time here.



Shahada is TESTIMONY

Testimony to what?. To Oneness Of God.

Oneness Of God is Last ilaha ila Allah
(There is no deities besides Allah)

We can find this all over Quran.



The second part is TESTIMONY to the messangership of Muhammad. Allah affirms prophet Muhammad is His messanger.



"... the (true) believers are those only who believe in Allah and His messenger and afterward doubt not, but strive with their wealth and their lives for the cause of Allah. Such are the sincere." Al-Qur'an 49:15



Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah Q48:29



When the hypocrites come to you [Prophet], they say, ‘We bear witness that you are the Messenger of God Q63:1




So keep deceiving yourself

OK na, since you have consistently failed to provide where Muslims were asked to recite the shahada, before accepting Islam, I will assist you.

There is no proclamation or testimony of faith in the Qur'an; the shahada is in the hadith. Below is where Muslim ummah formed the modern day shahada:

sahih Bukhari 4:52:196;
Narrated Abu Huraira:
Allah 's Apostle said, " I have been ordered to fight with the people till they say, 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah,' and whoever says, 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah,' his life and property will be saved by me except for Islamic law, and his accounts will be with Allah, (either to punish him or to forgive him.)"

Mohammed's idea of shahada reads: 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah' (full stop!). No more no less; any addition is innovation. If you read though the above instruction by Mohammed, it was followed with a treat of war if anyone failed to comply. What does that tell you, a religion of peace?

You like quoting the first sentence of Quran 48:29, which is quit disingenuous of you. You knowingly and deliberately left out the clause 'those who believe in him (Mohammed) are merciful to themselves but ruthless against unbelievers'.

So much for the religion of peace.

Empiree:
what is shahada?. Shahada is clearly written and pronunced several places in the Qur'an. Also testimony of prophethood of Muhammad is written clearly in the Qur'an. What is the meaning of shahada?

Can you show me where shahada is CLEARLY written and pronounced, without ambiguity, in the Qur'an?

Empiree:
what is the meaning Shahada?

You can easily get the meaning by typing 'shahada' on google page and you will get the answer.

plainbibletruth:
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Thank you true2god

Moslems are quick to say "Show us EXACTLY where Jesus said. ... ...." Now let empiree show us exactly where the SHAHADA is in the koran.

Let him tell us if a person can be a Moslem today by believing in Allah ALONE without believing also in Mohamed.

Quoting half verses to try to prove point is simply DECEIT. This has been used by Moslems to blind millions to the true Islam.

That's Islamic hypocrisy; always misquoting their own Koran to drive home a point. No dignity, no shame! He cannot show where we have the shahada in the Quran because it never existed. This what they call 'bida' or innovative in Islam. Mohammed never asked anyone to say the shahada before accepting islam. What early Muslims did was paying verbal allegiance to Mohammed's leadership authority among the Muslim ummah.

The shahada was introduced into Islam years after the death of Mohammed, probably by one of the khalifa.

Empiree:
It is bcus you greeted me with the greeting word of PEACE "salaam alaikum", which means "peace be unto you". And i am required by islamic Law to reply walaikum salam which means "and peace be upon you too". How do you have problem with that?


Remember this promise of yours. You give your word and you must keep your word.



Let me just keep it simple. Let's see how you react first. This first pillar of Islam is stated clearly in the Quran exactly as it was revealed to the Jews and Christians of previous Scriptures. The Testimony of faith or shahada in the Torah (Old Testament) reads:


"Hear, O' Israel: the Lord our God, the Lord is One" Deuteronomy 6:4-5

The same Testimony is confirmed in the New Testament in the words of Jesus (Mark 12:29).



The Shahada authorised by God in the Quran affirms the same truth:

(Allah) God bears witness that there is no god but He, and so do the angels and those who possess knowledge. 3:18


Also in this verse

[Quran 21:25] We did not send any messenger before you (O Muhammed) except with the inspiration : "There is no god except Me;(Allah)


These two verses are enough prove of shahada. You said if i provide prove from Quran you will revert to islam. Here you go. Now in case you wanna question other half of shahada, which testimony that Muhammad is messenger of God, here we have


Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah ; Quran 48:29



Qurah 4:166:

But Allah bears witness by what He has revealed to you that He has revealed it with His knowledge, and the angels bear witness (also); and Allah is sufficient as a witness.

Only prophet Muhammad has the honor to be affirmed after testimony of faith. You will not hear muslims say Laa ilaha ila Allah Isa(Jesus) is messanger of Allah. Or Laa ilaha ila Allah Musa(Moses) is messenger of Allah. Or Laa ilaha ila Allah Ibrahim(Abraham) is messenger of Allah etc. What you will hear is Laa ilaha ila Allah Muhammad rasulullah (is messenger of Allah}. Only prophet muhammad has this honor.

walaikum salaam

I just like you Muslims because you will never fail to disappoint. I will quote the ayah you quoted one-by-one to show you how intellectually corrupt you are:

SAHIH INTERNATIONAL
(21:25) And We sent not before you any messenger except that We revealed to him that, “There is no deity except Me, so worship Me.”

The above is how sahih international translation puts it so simple. The ayah (though I don't even belief in the nonsense Quran) simply quoted an allahh telling Mohammed that we already send messengers before you with the same message that 'there is no any deity excerpt me (allahh). So what's so difficult for you to understand in this short sentence? How does this relate to the shahada?

The second ayah you quoted (Quran 48:29):

Sahih International : Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah ; and those with him are forceful against the disbelievers, merciful among themselves. You see them bowing and prostrating [in prayer], seeking bounty from Allah and [His] pleasure. Their mark is on their faces from the trace of prostration. That is their description in the Torah. And their description in the Gospel is as a plant which produces its offshoots and strengthens them so they grow firm and stand upon their stalks, delighting the sowers - so that Allah may enrage by them the disbelievers. Allah has promised those who believe and do righteous deeds among them forgiveness and a great reward.

The above ayah asked Muslims to be wicked to unbelivers but merciful to themselves. I didn't see any shahada there unless you want to tell that anytime I see the words 'Mohammed', 'allahh' and 'messenger' in the same sentence I must accept it as the shahada.

The shahada that every Muslim proclaim is: 'there is no god except allahh and Mohammed is his messenger'. I was expecting you to show me where we can find this exact statement in the Quran as an article of faith but you were wobbling here and there and throwing verses. Just show me the ayah that said I must recite the shahada (or where the shahada is expressly written) and I will become a Muslim.

Asalama lekum!

Empiree:
You are becoming very silly now. With everything as clear as daylight in front of you, you are asking silly questions knowing too well in your heart you are deceiving yourself. I understand what both of you are doing. You are using outdated evangelical tactics which further make you guys silly. I will stop responding to both of you soon. You are doing this just because you can't defend your religion. You can't tell us why Jesus is God and Son of God at the same time. So it is irrelevant answering you any further untill you can make sense out of yourself. I will only reply your second dude when I get on my regular pc.

For record, according to the verse you quoted, it says God would preserve physical body of pharaoh. So here is his physical body showing he's dead like a smoked fish. This is the evidence and my answer to your silly question

You are yet to show me where we have the shahada in the Quran. One cannot become a Muslim without saying the shahada, kindly show me where shahada is instructed in the Koran.

Empiree:
WHo are you trying to con, eehen? Shahada, salat, sadaqat, righteous good deeds are day-to-day practices

Walaikum salaam

Con as in how? Hope you didnt get carried away with my asalama lekum! I was making a point you can't refute.

Can you show me the ayah you have the shahada in the quran? I asked you of Islamic practices that are only exclusive to to Quran. The answer is none.

If you show me the shahada in the Qur'an I will become a Muslim now.

salama lekum!

Empiree:
Seriously?. Are you the one reading my posts or my posts are reading you?. Whats fatwa and Islamic laws have to do with this?. I simply said Quran is ABSOLUTE revelation without error. Hadith or seerah contain error. You have comprehension problem?



I am sure these were explained to you yrs ago. I am not going back. YOu know what you're doing. Oooh...I get it. christiatian evangelists have thought you a new tactic?. If Quran is of no value in islam, i wonder what we recite everyday in our prayers?. Everything you mentioned above, majority of them have background in the Qur'an, and hadith expanciates. You blind to see bcus of your carnal mind

Ad hominem attack!

My reference to fatwa is relevant to this discussion since you make a claim that the Quran is absolute, that is supreme. If that is the case, I now ask you, which Islamic documents do the muftis or ulamas consult more extensively before making a religious ruling? The Quran or the hadith?

You also make a claim that the Qur'an contains zero or no error, do you mind of I give you scientific, historical and geographical errors in the Quran?

Concerning your last claim, you never refuted why we have many Islamic religious beliefs in the hadith that can never be found in the Quran. Can you mention any day-to-day islamic beliefs and practices that are exclusively found in the Qur'an?

Do you know the meaning of Absoluteness that you used in this context? Don't try words around if you don't know the technical reasons they are used.

Asalama lekum!

Empiree:
Listen, Quran is the ONLY absolute REVEALATION. And I said it is a PRIMARY source. I never told you it is the only source. There are only two sources, Quran & Hadith(second source). Seerat(biography) is what is written about you which may contain inaccurate information about you. Besides, we are only using Qur'an and Bible here. You guys are the ones sniffing around. In that case, I have the right to use or cite references from your bible studies which include history books outside of the Bible.



we never told you that ENTIRE Bible is corrupt. We said Bible is mixed up with falsehood and truth. That's why we use Quran as standard criteria to figure out truth that is in harmony with Quran. However, falsehood therein overshadows the truth.

Example of this manifested earlier when the two guys can not give us accurate identity of Jesus. You have been here for long too and none of you guys can give us identity of Jesus without mixing nonsense with it. This is the reason you always look in to Ibn Ishaq for CONVINIENCE. Quran is the only absolute truth. Neither Hadith nor seerah is 100 accurate.

Anytime we debate Christians we use Quran vs Bible 85% of the time, untill you guys start sticking your nose in the Hadith which happened here anytime you guys can't defend yourselves.

You cannot use the word ABSOLUTE for the Quran. Absoluteness denotes unity and there is no unity in Islamic source documents. How can you say the Qur'an is ABSOLUTE when over 80% of Islamic laws and practices (including the proclamation of fatwa) are found in the hadith and not the Quran?

The number of times a Muslim pray is not in the Quran but in the hadith.

The 5 pillars of Islam is not in the Quran but the hadith.

The number of days you should fast in not in the Quran but in the hadith.

How to perform ablution is not in the Quran but the hadith.

The shahada (sahih Bukhari 4:52:196) is not in the Quran but the hadith.

The punishment for adultery/formication is not in the Qur'an but in the hadith.

How to clean yourself, after using the restroom, is not in the Qur'an but in the hadith.

Going to mecca is not in the Qur'an but in the hadith.

Kissing the idol black stone is not instructed in the Qur'an but the hadith.

Running around the kabba shrine cannot be found in the Quran but the hadith. And so many other Islamic practices. Why then do you say the Qur'an is 'absolute' when most of Islamic practices can only be found in the hadith?

The Qur'an is of no value in Islam; it is just a book used by Muslims to deceive the kafirs. The real books Muslims used in their day-to-day religious practices is the hadith and the sirah. Stop deceiving yourself.

You make a claim that some parts of the bible is corrupt, especially the ones that refute Islamic beliefs, can you provide the incorruptible Bible, by Islamic standard, so that I can throw away the current Bible I have?

If the hadith and the sirah are not 100% reliable, why are you guys still using it? You mean the hadith and the sirah are like tomatoes that you can cherry-pick the ones that suit you and leave the rotten ones?

You have to be smart bro!