₦airaland Forum

Tgirl4real: Contestant 4

The topic [i]Sex before Marriage: Right or wrong [/i]is one which I would be arguing for and therefore deem as Right.

Irrespective of who or what we are, where we come from, what we believe in or not, sex should be a very private and special moment between us and our chosen partner. It is an act that should be practised only between two [b]consenting adults. I am placing special emphasis on these two words because anything other than consenting sex constitutes rape or child sex abuse. The word ‘adults’ is also used here, because of the emotional and physical risks associated with sex.

Presumably 18 is adult, and two 18 year olds can consent? So a consenting 18 year old with a denied pregnancy is not raped or abused according to your submission. So there is no problem then is there? Or perhaps it's down to those who preach abstinence? Please give context to this live example on the basis of your submission.

Tgirl4real: Before addressing the question on whether it is right or not for two consenting adults intending to tie the knot to engage in sex before marriage, let us first acknowledge the fact that such ‘intending’ couples have already made an unofficial agreement to commit to each other for life. It becomes official when the necessary documents have been signed on paper and a marriage certificate issued. Marriage is a life-long commitment and not another form of dating. Thus the key word here is commitment. Does it not therefore stand to reason that before undertaking such a lifelong journey with your partner, one should ensure that some groundwork be carried out to ensure compatibility? Especially as this will mean spending the next fifty, sixty, seventy or even eighty years of your life dedicated solely to that person? Based on that premises alone, I earnestly advocate for sex before marriage between intending couples, for the following reasons listed below:

If sex prior to marriage is to test compatibility, but you have already made "the commitment", what happens if there is no compatibility? This is plainly contradictory? So no, it does not stand to reason, as you are clearly saying non-compatibility voids the commitment. Please defend this point.

Tgirl4real: Sexual Compatibility

No Nasty Surprises

Intimacy and Bonding

Chemistry

Sexual Identity

Health Benefits:

• Improved sense of smell [3]
• Stress and blood pressure reduction [4] [5]
• Increased immunity [6]
• Decreased risk of prostate cancer [7] [8] [9]
• Orgasms leading to increased levels of the ‘love hormone’ or Oxytocin, which helps couples bond and trust [10] [11] [12]
• Sexual intercourse and associated activities are aspects of many mood repair strategies, which means they can be used to help dissipate feelings of sadness and depression [13]
• Helps you look 4 – 7 years younger and these benefits are directly related to the benefits of sex – stress reduction, greater contentment and improved sleep – all prompted by sex. [14] [15]

Knowing these, then delay reaping these benefits till after marriage? Why wait?

1. Sexual compatibility - I have responded to this in my question above.

2. No Nasty Surprises - honesty will circumvent this. Pre-marital sex will not reveal a bigamist, undisclosed health problems, children out of wedlock etc.

3. Intimacy and Bonding, Chemistry, Sexual Identity, Health Benefits - All these are benefits of "sex" regardless of the context. This is an argument for sex - regardless.

Tgirl4real: Conclusion: Sexual morality is not about how long you wait. It is about how you treat people and the people you are with. Instead of deceiving ourselves into thinking that waiting until marriage makes sex ‘good’, we should focus on how to be, and demonstrate ethical and responsible sexual practices, which include taking the necessary precautions to protect the physical and mental well being of ourselves and our partner. Having sex that is consensual, and focused on mutual pleasure, are part of being an ethical and responsible human being.

Thank You.

Sexual morality is understanding what sex is and enjoying it in it's proper context,Marriage. This means it is safe secure, pleasurable and with wonderful outcomes. No one says sex can't be "good" out of marriage, but understood for it's ultimate purpose it is best within it. Responsible, ethical sex, is sex within marriage. Their are heightened dangers and risks with every other sort.


So just the two questions then. I see nothing else pertinent.

Best
TV

[quote author=Efemena_xy]Hello, I'm Contestant No. 4 and my questions are directed to Contestant No. 1:

We know that religious stricture and cultural tradition have mostly been in close agreement on this. Especially with reference to the faiths and traditional morés that prevail in the African context. Sex before marriage vows is “haram”, intercourse before marital rites is taboo.
A case based on a sound religious exegesis and a deep knowledge of our cultural heritage is practically open and shut against sex before marriage. And whilst I acknowledge that it informs my personal position and submit it as supporting evidence, I will not make it the mainstay of my argument. Not least because it is self-evident and would not really lend new insight or progress the wider discussion on this issue.
As societies move away from religious instruction and long held cultural norms, towards an era of autonomous self expression, with personal desires and preference informing choices, are there any other reasons for abstaining from sex before marriage if one simply desires it?
I believe there are sensible and practical reasons for doing so.

Question 1: Based on the excerpt of your first paragraph for which its basis leans heavily on cultural and religious norms of the past, or better still – of a bygone era - how do you reconcile your opinion of sex before marriage for those who do not share your religious beliefs in today’s modern society but are still active, tax-paying, members of society? I’m particularly interested in those who do not yet have marriage as a viable option open to them – such as the GLBTs (Gays, Lesbians, Bi-sexuals and Transexuals). Are they exempted from pre-martial sex because they can’t get married?[/quote]Firstly, to refer to religious and cultural norms as of a "bygone era" as a point of rebuttal is patently wrong. Practising adherents of the Abrahamic faiths alone number in their billions. Religious faith is very much with us and has every right to inform public opinion

Secondly, neither religious conviction nor traditional cultural norms were the mainstay of my submission, as I clearly stated.

Thirdly, marriage as defined has always been thus and is open to everyone. And it was never about the sort of intimacy you choose to have but the natural outcome of natural intimacy, children. Marriage arose anthropologically as sociey' answer to raising future generations. A biological reality;men + women = children, fulfilling a societal need - a well raised future generation - at least cost and to optimal effect, raised by their biological mother and father.

Fourthly. Any two opposite sex couples - bar a few disqualifiers, age consanguinity etc - are able to marry. people who practise sodomy are not barred. Two people of the same s3x cannot have a conjugal relationship. It does not and can never result in children, whilst in principle male/female s3x can. Indeed true s3x involves the coming together of two opposite s3x Instruments. What homosexuals do is not s3x. It's a perversion of the real thing. So no matter how much tax they pay they can never truly have s3x, be conjugal or be truly married, whatever the legal position. So if they choose to marry it applies to them, if they choose to be sodomites it's a moot point.

[quote author=Efemena_xy]The essence of courtship is too really appreciate the person one is potentially going to spend the rest of one’ life with. Sex has a binding effect and engaging in it prior to marriage is pre-emptive in that regard. Potentially beclouding one’ judgement to character flaws that should spell the end or at least mean serious consideration is given to continuing the relationship.

Question 2: If you claim that the essence of courtship is to really appreciate your spouse / person you intend to tie the knot with, how can you really know for sure whether you are sexually compatible or not? Granted, sex is not the be-all-and-end-all of a relationship, but it is an important aspect of marriage, that shouldn’t be left to chance – and if your partner has got sexual issues that aren’t discovered until after the wedding night, such as pre-mature ejaculation, inability to climax, what then? Would you spend the rest of your married life frustrated, unfulfilled with no other choice but to fake org@sms?[/quote]Whatever you believe; creation, evolution or nothing at all, men and women are compatible sexually. It's a myth to to think sexual compatibility needs to be pre-determined. If people take one thing from my participation in this exercise, let it be this. "You have great sex with a great person" guaranteed. If a person is physically unable to consumate marriage or disqualified through disability they should not be presenting themselves for marriage. Anything else is a question of preference and will be resolved in two great people seeking and working to mutually satisfy each other. DOn't be with someone you don't care for deeply, commit to love and are sure has been wholly open and truthful with you.

[quote author=Efemena_xy]Abstaining would serve to keep the conjugal aspect of marriage pure and obviate many issues that arise from past liaisons, including those that can manifest much later. Think heightened risk of serious illnesses like infertility and cancer as a result of contraception to avoid unplanned pregnancies, having abortions or using abortifacients. Indeed, is it not with us already? Eighteen with a denied pregnancy anyone?

Question 3: Do you not think that having a conservative attitude to sex where it’s seen as some dark, nasty act not to be mentioned by ‘chaste’ people, is the root of many of societies sexual ills? You’ve given the example of an eighteen year old with a denied pregnancy. Yet, this same eighteen year old confessed that she had to sneak out of her parents’ home for over a year just to see her boyfriend. She had relationship issues which required the input of a loving, understanding and experienced adult (her mother, for starters), but she obviously didn’t feel comfortable enough to discuss her concerns with her mother.

This is all too typical of issues faced by teenagers and when the fail to get that parental support and guidance, they turn to strangers on the net and peers who know no better and the end result – yes, an unwanted pregnancy. When purity peddlers create a false black and white world of ‘pure virgins’ who wait till until marriage and whorish girls who go home every night of the week with a different man, they fail to address the reality of life, a fact that people WILL still get involved in relationships, despite the ‘taboo’ status linked to them. How we deal with these relationships shape how we as individuals grow and evolve about ourselves. You get to figure out the difference between real love and puppy love / infatuation, which this young teen was unable to discern. Her plight is resounding proof that sexual repression has never worked. EVER.[/quote]I never called it dirty, or said it should not be thoroughly discussed. Societies "sexual ills" stem from wholesale moral loosening wanton permissiveness and the commercialisation - hence degradation - of s3x.

She did not have to sneak out or engage in illicit s3x. She chose to do so. A full understanding of the possible consequences and a clear notion of why she should abstain till the right time would have served her well. Abstinence did not cause her situation. It would have prevented it.

Preaching sex within the security of marriage does not mean issues cannot be addressed and understanding imparted. One of the reasons why it's a good thing, is it stops the immature getting in over their heads which is the case in point.

Best
TV

[quote author=Efemena_xy]Hello, I'm Contestant No. 4 and my questions are directed to Contestant No. 1:[/quote]Evening Efemena,

I'm Contestant No.1. I shall respond to your rebuttal straight away, then post my own shortly after. I'm juggling a few unexpected things so kindly bear with me.

Thanks
TV

Cheers TG,

Interesting to note that the first four placers all debated the Spare/Spoil notion. First and 4th against 2nd and 3rd for. It looks like this is warming up nicely.


Best
TV

Well done to TG & RR for organising and moderating. And of course to our impartial panel of judges

Some questions for our moderators;

A.
Evidence: This has been cited as a basis - if only in part - for being awarded marks. However, I think we need to consider this carefully. many studies, most especially in the social sciences are often biased and undertaken with an ideologically based outcome in mind. It is often said that social science is not science.

Let me give a couple of examples;

1. Pharmaceutical companies sponsoring studies of drugs they sell. Enough said (and that is actually real science).

2. A study claiming 2 same gender parents raise children as well or better than two opposite sex parents. We are all "NetWise". A search for numerous studies for or against that notion will return in about 0.001 seconds. I don't believe quoting or lifting points from a web search is a debating skill.

Rather the skill is in articulating why one is for or against a point/position. Marshalling an argument and appealing to ones audience with experience, sound analysis and cogent points.

B.
Rules - an example here is the word limit; what is the sanction for transgression? Outright disqualification? A points penalty? Individual judges discretion or nothing. Like corporal punishment , it should always be clear what will be considered an infraction and what the subsequent punishment will be.

Thanks
TV

hrmkz: We alread had 3, two girls and a boy.

She thinks we need one more but am ok with 3.

We have discussed and discussed but she is not giving in.

How else can I convince her?

Bro, many would love to be in your shoes, myself included.
She does you don't, what to do?

Be the leader you are. Is your wife physically capable? Any previous health issues that could make child-bearing risky? Can you have another child without anything more than marginal discomfort? Especially financially. Will you be able to provide for all 4 children and the both of you adequately without overburdening yourselves?

If you have positive answers for all of the above, please indulge your wife. Consider the new life a blessing. Your wife will be overjoyed, your kids happy, God honored and your tents enlarged. If not, speak lovingly with your spouse.

Enjoy the passion if you accept the mission.

Best to you and your family

TV

Evening,

Do I make my submission direct to you and will it be "marked" anonymously? Or do I declare my choice here, with my submission posted for the judges to grade and for all to read?

Apologies if you've stated it clearly and I've just failed to pick that up.

Best
TV

Career (dreams) and Family are not weighed after one weds.

When one correctly understands marriage, one appreciates that the moment one marries, one agrees to subsume their career (or other aspirations) for the greater good of the marriage if required.

It's not a choice one makes after marriage, it's a decision taken when you agree to marry.

Yes, it's all very well to say balance the two or find someone that will be supportive. And indeed, that may well work out. But if the situation demands it, it's not a choice.

I speak as a Christian.

TV

_{I'd love to hear a woman articulate these "dreams/visions", not just trumpet them generically. I'd also like to hear, why family would have to be "de-prioritised" in favour of pursuing said dream. As much as I'd love it, I don't rally expect it. Unthinking positions and paper thin arguments.}

No!

It can be culturally and ideologically embedded, but it is not genetically predetermined.

A renewed mind in Christ will sort it pronto - this one no reach spirit level sef!

TV

...I've started so I'll finish.

Definitive, if you are a truly faithful to God, please believe your "situation" is not like that of others.

If I had met my wife a year earlier, I may well have missed it. I had lot's of notions I needed to be disabused of, prejudices I needed to let go of, as well as insights I needed to glean and wisdom I needed to acquire. The timing has to be right, the person has to ready, you just have to be righteous.

God is working with you to this end. Just be patient and trusting. Prayerful, watchful and humble. I could never have seen the end from the beginning, but when God finished His work, it all became clear. Those who do not believe as you do have to engineer their own ends. And it's not that this approach cannot pay some dividends, but who will be your guarantor, who will stand surety? Please be careful from whom you solicit and take advice.

He is the God of all comfort and all consolation. I have passed through so I can share with you. Not that I'm a Catholic or any other denomination, but I am, and speak to you as one, who over and above labels truly believes. If so, you do not need to hear anymore or say anymore. Not just Guarantor, not only Surety, but also Justifier.

I have spoken. Off to swing some kettles jor...

TV

Royal Roy: Hmmmmm

nice one TV01

Been a while we saw you around here!

Hope you bubbling with all the good and besties of life?

Thank you sir. Wifey and I have been putting the 10'000's to flight. God is good. I heard about your exploits. I pray that it is not only men that have cause to give a good testimony of you. Your reward is assured.

yellowpawpaw: TV01, where hv u been?
I've been missing u and ur posts!
Welcome back!

I haven't actually been anywhere. I think the occasional hiatus, followed by a brief "reading only" return, before re-joining fully helps one keep things in perspective.

And thank you. I trust all is well with you and yours. Appreciate your keeping me in mind.

Best
TV

Bro' Definitive,

Good to hear that you have a keen sense of what you’d like and what is essential for marriage. That is lacking in many these days, hence the "car crash" type unions that abound these days. Please proceed, there is nothing to allege against you on account of this (or carry go, nothin’ do you - appreciating your preference for impeccable grammar!).

A friend once introduced me to a lady. “What’s the deal” I asked? During our discussion it came out that “she wants a really tall man”. Why should I bother I queried? Well “when she meets you and discovers your sterling character, she’ll see sense. “Let’s just leave it” I said. “At all” insisted my friend, I’m sure it will be fine. Wearied from accusations of being too fussy, overly picky and not giving people a chance etc. I acquiesced.

After a brief phone intro and a few convos, we fixed a date. As agreed & bang on time, TV rocks up to her place. Beautifully attired in a tailored blue-grey suit with a fine birds-eye pattern. Matched with a crisp tailored white shirt and gigolo loafers. Shaved and trimmed Needless to say, all this was lost on the sister, whose eyes were fixed at a point some way above my head as she opened the door. She had a wide smile to begin, but as she gradually lowered her gaze, her smile faltered then totally disappeared, until finally, by the time our eyes met, she had a facial look of just having trod on dog mess.

This all happened in an instant, but was unmissable. I held form – even as I thought “what is it with me, rocks and hard places”?

What’s my point? Peoples preferences no matter how silly, childish or immature are to be respected. They have every right. Even if with hindsight they turn out to be misguided and regrettable. And as they have every right, they must also bear responsibility for their choices.

I feel you have done well and taken the right approach. Set your standards high and stick with them. Otherwise there is a real danger of you never being really content, resentful or even worse. And in this regard, faith as a priority is right up there. If you do for any reason compromise on any aspect, be sure to think it through and accept you can live with the outcome. Please, don’t let your eventual union fall in to the bucket of “manage-manage” or “tick-box” affair. Be wise.

One good thing about the “date” was she lived close by. That was particularly good as when I turned up for date number two – lest I be accused of not giving people a chance, I arranged a second date even though I didn’t particularly feel her – she claimed not to remember making it? And good because some while later I saw her up close with a guy at our local train station. He was shorter, stockier, not as pleasant looking – and needless to say - not as well attired as I am. Good as the woman God finally blessed me with is taller, more shapely, better looking, more accomplished, beautifully mannered and with a character to die for. And she frequently saw us together before we upped sticks to a better area.

So I repeat, do not compromise. Pay no heed to those, who don't have it, can't see it, won't get it or would fail to recognise it, even if it sang love x love to them at a candle lit dinner for two at the Ritz (in Ibadan I think you call that Premier hotel ).

Continue to believe and trust God. By all means, allow room for introspection, consider your own ways. Work on yourself and continue to absorb the “essence” of holy matrimony. But I re-emphasise, please do not compromise.

Be encouraged sir. At 30 you are still relatively young and there is all to play for. Please be patient - it will all be worth it in the end - and considered. God never fails. Blissful uxory will be yours.

TV

_{I love catching them at the "wanna wed" stage}

Guitarlife: I understand sir, I try my best but its tough. Thats not an excuse, I really dont have any.
@Op am sorry if my posts sounded insensitive and a bit sarcastic. I didnt mean to, you are trying hard already. Just be more prayerful and probably pick interest in learning a new musical instrument. It worked for me at sometime when I was dealing with stuffs too.

It is well my brother. It's hard out there and I don't envy anyone in your position right now. But regroup refocus and fixate on Him. As a man, take responsibility in your relationships - or simply don't have them - and please do not hurt the young sister, any others or yourself.

Instrument? I believe OP's desire is to make sweet music with her husband.

TV

chaircover: Is that all you will say

I have been looking forward to reading what you and analytical have to say on the issue. I was even thinking of bringing analytical out of sabbatical leave.

Please drop some advise for the lady from a mans point of view.

Sex very often has too be "smoothed" by a couple. There is rarely an exact match in appetites, preferences or desires. Compounded by the various phases and life events a couple will encounter. You test tire beforehand - that is not in any way prescriptive - you are perfectly matched at that point and then life kicks in! Say a traumatic pregnancy, difficult birth and PND? Leaving wifey with absolutely no sexual appetite. Then what? Providing and protecting a wife and children combined with work stress and bad dietary/exercise habits can wreak havoc with a mans libido. Sickness sef. Then what?.

Sure, sex can be discussed, but what is more important is the deep care and sacrificial posture you adopt towards your spouse. With that you'll go the extra mile to please them. Pleasing them -pleasing each other - will be your sole aim in sex. Listen to me; you'll have great sex with a great person. Don't potentially harm two people by acquiring for yourself a "manageable" or "tick box" spouse.

Sex is a bio mechanical exercise, it can be worked on. There are more than one road to market se? Explore together. A couple should be comfortable enough to say and caring enough to make an effort.

I still perceive foundational issues here. If they were right for each other, the will too work through this would be there. The problem is not so much the sex, in the first instance at least.


TV

Guitarlife - I may not have the right to be, but I am really disappointed with you right now. You sound like an unrepentant fornicator and you are taking one who did not even hint at adultery - merely mentioned it - too task?

Beyond that, I had real hopes for you. You are one of four guys I'm so rooting for. Spiritually you could do yourself great harm and this will at least be a great setback. As you can see, the two you've been with are no indication of the one you will ultimately settle with. Testing is not required. You are better than this. Do not blight your future.

jidegirl12: TV did you or did not go for marriage counselling before you tie the knot with Mama JR??

Be objective for once please.

No, l did not. Otherwise l would not have asked?

I'd really appreciate thoughts here. And answers to my questions as posed would be great.

Thanks

TV

yellowpawpaw: Men dey suffer o!

Ujujoan: Nigerian women dey suffer sha . . .

We'll get there

TV

greatgod2012: @op, what are his reasons for cheating?

Are there any valid reasons for cheating?

TV

@OP,

Are you absolutely sure your fiancé is the man you want to spend the rest of your life with?
Do you know without a doubt that he is committed to you and any children you may have?
Is he a mature man who has shown you he understands marriage & has communicated - to & with you - a vision for your future together?

If you answer yes to all of the above, it's just per- wedding nerves.
If not, you might want to revisit those things and maybe consider a further postponement, until such time...

@Kuylie, applause.

@All, there seems to be a trend to suggest per-marital counselling. That hasn't been a feature of the family board previously. At least not with the groundswell l currently see. I'm not knocking it, but would appreciate if someone could detail what it is about pmc that makes such a difference? What does it or is it designed to accomplish?

TV

taryour: Oga o. Some women can be so silly and heartless. Those family she is spending on,when issues arise you see them removing themselves one after the other. Op hope you have gotten another job? If yes please find a means of getting her out of that shop,lock it up and let her have access to getting in there,what rubbish If the means of getting money to spend is being cut she will regain her senses. Or simply covert the shop to another avenue of raising money for yourself and your kids.

A woman that doesn't take her hubby and kids as her number one priority is not a wife. Shebi na the boutique and the money from it that's making her feel like a champion. Cut her wings and let's see her fly.

...following on from my post above, I see the point here, but I don't agree. Like I mentioned, they are essentially in a combat situation (conflict) and that type of action would be seen as aggressive.

What typically happens is one party "escalates", the other retaliates and so on until we have all out war. This usually has only one outcome, as well as being costly for all involved.

He needs to sue for peace, but in a way that does not prove escalatory and at the same time deals with the more fundamental issues. Attempting to "deal" with his wife will almost certainly backfire as she in turn moves to show him who is doing the dealing. From what it sounds, she is in a position of strength and has a family who will willingly ride shotgun for her. Lets not give OP cause for part II here.

TV

bellong: The bolded is the sole essence of communication in this situation. As he expresses his grievances, the wife does the same and they find a balance/compromise in resolving the issues to move forward.

Clearly there are more fundamental issues which require resolution in this case. At the point of inception there were what I describe as "not ready/not right" issues that were not resolved. This has led to some dysfunction becoming entrenched in their home.

Even if as OP claims, it is purely one-sided, the root issues need to be addressed first. To expatiate, if for example the issue was alcoholism, a discussion around "you need to cut down/quit drinking" would not really help. The root causes need to be addressed and the alcoholic must not be in denial about the addiction.

There is live conflict here, so they are effectively in a combat situation. It doesn't appear that either of them have the character/skills to resolve it - having festered for 8 odd years - and only one some semblance of willingness. I "some semblance", because OP' desire is to "straighten out his wife", I'm not sure he gets his own failings. Hence my suggestion of a mediator. But both parties have to be willing.

This is not a question of a committed and mature couple with a simple misunderstanding easily resolved by a heart to heart.

TV

OP, based on what you've shared and more generally, I actually think you have valid concerns.

Don't get me wrong, doubtlessly being an only child and the centre of your parents world for 19? yours has made you at least a little brattish, if not imbued you with a monster sense of entitlement. However the timing and shaping of this move does raise some questions.

I wouldn't have normally felt comfortable touching on this, but since you have, I will. Your parents age - and therefore ability - to cope with a child and possibly not being around to raise him to maturity, leaves you with a sense of impending burden as next of kin.

At your age, you should be looking ahead to enjoying your young adulthood and then starting a family of your own. And further, your parents should be focusing on readying you for that phase of your life. What is the motive behind the timing of this? Given the life phases they and you are currently in.

If it's too keep you company or have a larger family, this should have happened when you were much younger, especially if the child is of a different ethnicity.

However, I wouldn't fear the doomsday scenario of your parents passing in your sophomore year and you playing daddy daycare in between lectures and frat parties. The obvious best all round solution here would be for the child to be further adopted by another couple.

Someone mentioned your orientation? If that is the issue, it would make a bit more sense. Perhaps they only just realised? And possibly makes it even more ominous

I have some questions - although purely rhetorical on my part;

How old is the adopted child to be
Is this story actually true
Were you yourself adopted (hence my question mark after "19" earlier)
Is this really adoption or fostering
What am I doing on this thread !

And some tongue in cheek musing - not advise.

- At their current age, the authorities would hardly look favourably on their application to adopt? Especially given the ethnic difference. I'm assuming this is not some celeb type procurement from abroad?

- You could threaten to kill yourself if they go through with it, and do so if they do. Drastic I know, but it would simplify things somewhat.

- Ahitophelian counsel would work here, but if you are smart enough you can figure that out for yourself.

On balance I doubt this story, but it was fun musing over it.


TV

@OP,

Both GuitarLlife and YellowPawPaw have spoken the truth to you out of the reality of the situation. The real-life application of love - sacrificial if need be - humility and foresight concerning the longer-term welfare and harmony of your family. Because your BIL is family - even if not immediate - and who knows what the future holds?

Others have weighed in with useful workarounds to ameliorate the situation, consider these and tailor to suit your particular circumstances. I would only suggest trying to carve out clear times when that space is sacrosanct to you and hubby, ensuring those boundaries are known to all. Your hubby should ensure compliance here.

As to coming to nl to seek counsel; aspirationally, we would that everyone possesses the tools and support to resolve family issues in-house. Wouldn't it be ideal if no one ever had issues or any that they couldn't resolve themselves?

But where that is not the case, nl is a good resource if used correctly. If one can sift and learn. We even have a library of issues for reference.

Someone mentioned the matrimonial bed is "sacred". Really? In which religion, faith or philosophy is that? I for one would be interested to hear.

If you are a Christian, be wise, understand that men are not made for beds and that beds are made for sleeping. It is the act on the bed, not the bed itself. That should be made clear when setting those boundaries I mentioned earlier.

I also mentioned sifting earlier. One must learn to sift out those who willfully or ignorantly exchange the holy for the profane, are appallingly inconsistent in their positions, plain hypocritical, or just posting to project.

I wish you and your family well and a near-term improvement in your circumstances.

TV

bellong: Divorce is not the solution sir. Nobody is irredeemable, it only requires conscious and consistent effort in correcting someone. If you divorce her, how sure are you that you wouldn't end up marrying the same calibre (if not worse) of woman since you failed to figure out that aspect of her during courtship.

If you are sure she is spending all her money on her relatives, why not talk to a respected member of the relative to speak sense to her in making her responsible to her children and some other pertinent issues that deserve her attention.

The above can only be done after exhausting communication option with your wife. Sit her down, make her see where she is deficient and how she can balance between helping her family and taking care of her home front. Most times, the reason why the other party seems not to cooperate is because we normally fail in presenting points in a convincing and appropriate way to the other party. You know and understand your wife, find a way of getting her involve in the discussion and buying into your idea. Sell your conviction to her and do not push it down her throat.

Decent enough advice Bellong, but this doesn't appear to be a question of the wife misunderstanding or failing to appreciate things. As you alluded to in your opening paragraph, it seems to be more character (calibre) related.

They've been married for 8 whole years. A woman born yesterday, married today and with child on the 3rd day would instinctively know her responsibilities towards her children.

Willful neglect of children and a callous disregard for her spouse? I'm not sure a quick sit-down will resolve this one. Doubly hard if as you pointed out he failed to spot this prior, what other deficiencies does he himself have.

Were he is seeing "nagging wife", she may be seeing "weak, unauthoritative" husband! This is about the both of them. It's why I cannot stress the foundations enough.

To make this work, OP will have to make some real changes and set expectations of same from Mrs OP. So communicating not just what he expects from her, but how they could both be better and enhance their family. And yes a third party may have to be involved. Counselling perhaps?

This is a high stakes one if they both can't or will not step up to meet this challenge.

TV

I'm back...I see that my fans haters, jealousiers (and sometimes there is no difference between them )are all eagerly awaiting my comments. Sincerest apologies for not making an appearance late yesterday, I was ever so busy living a real - as opposed to a vicarious - family life, real experiences, that can be shared if I choose too.

So many to respond to so many to answer. So I'll free form.

I've been a lander for a while now, longer than most. I know of only a few that have been here longer, even more so if I limit it to my two regular stomping grounds, initially religion, but now mostly family.

It's hard not to build up "profiles" of posters, based either on what the reveal about themselves or the positions they take. Again, especially when this is concentrated, think 80/20, not everyone is equally prominent or prolific.

Further, like I suspect others do, I read more than I post and oft times follow threads without posting. A good example would be Serubawon' thread. I followed it from day one. I had concerns but Analytical and others were advising and I was sure they'd be sound counsel outside nl.

So following with a bit of reasoning and modicum of discernment brings insight. And of course some facts are clearly stated. Indeed, it's not that much harder to suss out people that are evasive, avoid certain topics, always adopt certain approaches or positions and studiously refuse to disclose anything. It only takes one post to gain insight.

So far example a few days ago Uju - whom I have never spoken to but am very much aware of - was pilloried shamelessly due to a personal fact she revealed a while back. Which I clearly remember. Later she actively discouraged a relationship between a sibling and a Yoruba boy, so the reasons for some of her comments - appropriate or not - are clear.

But there is nothing new here. There are 2 "older" Ujus who have dropped that exact same fact - one case in which I can even remember the name of the guy one of them dated.Indeed, the argy-bargy there is an exact replica of a feud that happened in earlier times. Is there anything new on nl?

Would I ever bring that up? not at all - and I regularly cross swords with one of them. But does that mean I won't refer to things I remember from peoples posting histories? If it's relevant to a serious point, you can bet on it. A more pertinent observation is the responses, especially by those close to the warring parties.

You see there is a lot of inconsistency here, particularly amongst the female posters, but again it's instructive. It's quite obvious that some of the women here place alliances ahead of truth and would rather be partisan than factual. It often leads to inconsistencies in their positions. It resulted in the whole cabal thing, which I watched with some amusement and it is still very much present today - albeit more fractured, but probably further reaching.

The men - and I speak for myself here - tend to be more stand alone and hold positions more consistently. I do need anyone to ride shotgun. I don't instinctively "like" or "GBAM" posts from my "cohorts". Why, because I believe I post truthfully and factually. And my worldview is consistently applied, neither is it self-derived. Can I be called out for my tone at times? possibly, but when it comes to fact or insight, I'm still waiting.

And that is what many simply can't deal with. Another point; there is not gender-bashing on this board as much as there is male-bashing. Lets be clear about that. On this thread alone, no one has mentioned the failings of naija mothers - or are they perfect? If the reverse thread had been started, there would have been howls of "your mother", "your sisters" - and in abusive tones. Here men simply stood up and said it's not true. The real truth is that were there are "stereotypically regressive norms" amongst men, women in the form of mothers/sisters have been equally culpable of inculcating and re-inforcing them by their actions or choices.

As for this thread, debrief clearly introduced a toxic element. I was reading from the off and didn't like it, but held off. When it was pointed out she accepted her error - on the face of it - only to backtrack when "the one with no provenance", entered to stir. It was a particularly odious move given the fact there had been agreement and generic as well as thread specific progress.

And to note, debrief was called out for this same thing barely a day previously. She rushed in to coruscate men without even reading properly. She was called out there also, she apologised. Then what? Jide rode in, doing pretty much what was done on this thread. Did I mention partisanship and alliances as opposed to facts and truth. Funnily enough debrief is often mistaken for a man !

If I can break myself away from bonding, I may be back here to respond to debriefs post.


TV

Nashville: You would have done a lot better to just tell us how your own relationship with your dad was and how your husband relates to your children.

Simple kweshun 0! See diversionary non-response by a seemingly virtual person!!!

[quote author=Sisi_Kill]Rotflmao! Tee Veee...Deep Breath son, deep breath.

Gosh! How long have you been waiting to put that out there?!

I hope twas worth the wait. Lmao!!!!!


Moving on. ..Nashville, it is because I have seen the good ones (which are really a handful) and how well they handle it which makes it perplexing that some men think it's beneath them to be fathers to their kids. Like I said I work for an organization where majority of the kids are from African....Nigerian descent and I can count on one hand how many times their dads come to any events. I've seen up close and personal what their disinterest do to these kids.

Nash, my man...I don't hate Nigerian, I just dislike badly behaved Nigerian men and I'm not gonna pat ALL Nigerian men on the head just because....for one thing it does a great disservice to the few. ..very few good ones.

So once again instead of getting haughty about people talking about the badly behaved majority, how's about we find a way to make them the minority?!

On a side note
Will a thread ever be complete if the pipsqueak does not make an appearance? I think not. Lol. ..Eejit!![/quote]You, yours...geddit??

TV

_{And for those of you viewing the preceeding post, please stop ogling my lovely bod, it's for Mrs TV only !}

...hmmm.... Where to start?


Here! Your garden variety psychopathic naija husband...obviously not bonding with his offspring. Brute!


TV

biolabee: Seems this tv is the new pick on guy by the family section e-bullies matriarchs

Pick on? Who? I scratch my butt in Urdu! Dem no reesh, dem no fit. Lies, deception and misinformation cannot pick on the truth.

Matri-wetin? For where? Please don't rubbish that word. If they like let them form cabal, cohort, club, constituency, caucus or even corporation. I will continue to uphold and celebrate the family and harmonious relationships in truth.

In fact, I'm upping the ante, spew any contrary nonsense and I will pointedly draw your attention to it - if I choose. Don't particularly care if you respond or not or how you choose to do so. It's not for you, but for the impressionable/vulnerable reading.

If you besmirch Christianity, denigrate our families, try to normalise divorce, bash our men, promulgate sodomy or push radical feminism, I may well have something to say.

When I have time sha - gotta take JR swimming !

I'll be back - like a wrecking ball amongst derelict houses.

See them tremble !


TV

Nashville: You would have done a lot better to just tell us how your own relationship with your dad was and how your husband relates to your children. Most people that have done that already actually revealed they had a good relationship with their fathers. Someone had earlier posted how a typical Nigerian family is - A perfect wife (an angel) who could do no wrong and worked tirelessly (and unappreciated) for her family but who is unfortunate to be married to a maniac. Just sounds like super story. If Nigerian women were that "angelic" and the men demons, I think our women should start marrying Italian and French men. Abi, why would an angel marry a devil.

And to think of it, who are the ones bringing up these boys to be maniacs? The solution lies in how we all bring up our children. These "Nigerian men" are not a special breed. They are your fathers, your brothers and in some cases your children. The solution is to bring up your own children the right way so they do not become maniacs. We all come from the same society. I wonder how a family will train the girl child to be an angel as described and the boy child to be a demon!

There will always be bad eggs in any society. If there are 100 families on a street and 20 families are like the ones you described, it does not make most Nigerian men that way. There are still good ones out there. As mothers and fathers we should try and bring up your children with the right family values! I am still waiting to hear how your own relationship with dad was and how your husband relates with your kids.

Well said sir, but asking that particular poster to "tell" puts you on a "long thing". After you've been here a while you get to know who's who and who stands for what. Even if collaterally - or whilst sharing experiences - people reveal insights into their own situations and worldviews.

There's has been nothing about a spouse, partner, be that past, present or future tense. As to children, never more than indirectly and only in passing and nothing to suggest there are or are to come in this regard either. Don't be misled by the self-congratulatory spiel above. Rather, it's threads denying that marriage and children are the source of blessing and fulfillment that many of us know and celebrate. What of faith or other leanings? Other than a spiteful feminism, nada!

Simply can't resist bashing men. Even as dialogue progresses on this board and people begin to realise that we all have a vested interest in fostering strong marriages and harmonious relations between our men and women for our communities to flourish, true to form, she dives in to drag the conversation backwards and spread rancour.

Dripping sarcasm from thread to thread, never leading but always inciting. What is the agenda of such a one? what is she agitating for exactly?

One may well have good reason for being "closeted", but this is the "Family" board. Why anyone would come here with an insidious mission to rail against families is pause for thought?


TV

[quote author=Efemena_xy]See as religious freaks full ground for here.

*** Disclaimer: This post isn't intended to slight anyone here. I'm merely stating an observation. ***[/quote]Slight ke? Is it not you? Busy pointing out hypocrites, when you wear that particular crown unchallenged.

[quote author=Efemena_xy]I stand firmly for what I believe in: Justice, Fairness AND Equality for all, irrespective of gender, creed, disability, religious affiliation or sex.ua.lity.[/quote]@OP,

If you believe, pray with your spouse. Alone if you will, but feel free to invite MIL, other relatives or friends. You don't need to go anywhere, pay anyone or undertake any rituals.

God hears, God answers.

Enjoy your marriage and may God fill your quiver with arrows.


TV

...I said no!

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/crime/2-convicted-adopted-son-porn-article-1.1385895
http://rt.com/news/pedophile-syndicate-russian-boy-481/

This child was molested - some reports say from as early as weeks old - quite early by his "birth" father and partner and was "procured" for that very purpose.

The child was then passed around a ring of pederasts/paedophiles. The act of procuring children for sex is not uncommon by pederasts and is in some part the reason for some of Russias draconian new laws regards sodomites.


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2043345/The-California-boy-11-undergoing-hormone-blocking-treatment.html#ixzz2XdzTKkEE

TV

Ibhamen: What i would disagree with this post is the part of 'intelligence'. Giving birth or wanting children is not a criteria to judge one's IQ Or intelligence. Everybody fulfillment differs.

I totally agree here.

This kind of poser makes it sound like the "intelligence bar" for women is very low. It does them no favours and at best is slightly patronising.

TV

I see I'm not the only one not quite at ease with this story.

The flat belongs to the pet shop owner, who was a "friend" of the their mothers.

Where was she? Where was he?
Why would a "pet" of over 10 years - especially if it was well fed, need to hunt? And why hunt - twice - and not eat?
There is no way it would have felt threatened - they would have been oblivious to it's presence
There were no reports of cries, screams, or the noise from a ceiling caving in - nothing until he came across the "scene".

Tragic whatever the case. But still.

TV