₦airaland Forum

Malachi 2:16 - "For the Lord God of Israel says That He hates divorce..."

The fact that God hates divorce is enough reason for anyone who professes faith – in Him - to consider why.

The Lord instituted – and gifted man with the covenant of marriage for good reason. It is the basic building block and primary order of society.
I believe The Lord cares about the genuinely motivated marriage of all, even those who do not necessarily call upon Him. Marriage came before the Church and is by no means subject to it.

God gave us a template for marriage – as He has for many things – which includes instruction for issue resolution.

Point 1 – if you transact a marriage based on some other template – and I absolutely affirm your right to do so - please don’t come up in here and do either of the following two things;

1. Accuse God of somehow forsaking or misleading you
2. Forcefully assert a new non-literal meaning into scripture to justify your departure from it.

If anyone – Christian or not – departs from sound principles of marriage and does not seek the surety that trust in God brings, please, don’t be surprised if your union encounters stormy weather with the very real possibility of shipwreck.

I have repeatedly spelt out my understanding of the scriptures with regards to marriage, and no one has been able to show different, merely assert that reading must “not be literal”. Why not? (Not every Yoruba speaker is a Yoruba man and not every Yoruba man speaks Yoruba!)

debosky: I do believe God wants us to remain in marriage not just to 'endure' but to truly enjoy it. However, what I do get worried about is the 'literal' biblical interpretation that insists you remain in the 'marriage' despite all odds (except for adultery of course). It almost paints God as someone who is only concerned with maintaining a 'marriage' (even if only in name) above all else - regardless of the experience of those in the marriage. I don't think this is the intent and this is where the lack of prescriptive direction in the bible for every conceivable scenario translates into each person 'working out his salvation with fear and trembling'.

I hope you now appreciate, that 1. “literal remedy” is for a “literal union” 2. What you build, you support, what He builds, He surely will.

debosky: I understand TV01's position to an extent - you should start off with God directing you, you should be sustained by God's power, but guess what? What you should have done is not very useful when things have gone down the drain. God's instructions and His grace remain our first (and last) resort as Christians and we should never discount the power therein.

Your solution appears to be “to each his own”? Is that a remedy? Which brings me on to my;

2nd point. It’s not really a remedy that is being sought here. “Divorce” is not a remedy. Divorce is a “fail”, a failed marriage. A remedy would suggest a healed one.

Oddly enough I have been attacked by one who holds a more rigid literal interpretation than I put forward;

davidylan: 1 Cor 7:12-16 gives you a reason to divorce ONLY in the case the unbelieving spouse chooses to depart (but you do know that does not make you free to remarry unless the spouse is dead).

TV01: Now for a believer who came to faith after marriage, there is perhaps leeway. If the unbelieving spouse departs post-conversion the bible says they are not under bondage. Let the believing brother or sister act according to faith/conscience. I certainly will not be prescriptive here.

However the urge to play to the gallery overwhelms him, so he artfully contradicts himself and denies what he himself claims scripture says ;

davidylan: But i believe an abusive husband is NOT a believer in the first instance and by virtue of his violence has pretty much destroyed the marriage covenant. Left to me, if madam prayerfully finds another true christian man, she is not bound to her ex. I do not for one second believe God intends for us to suffer for ending up in marriage to one willing to destroy us.

I am neither surprised nor disappointed DL has always appeared “conflicted”. Wanting to appear the model Christian, but at the same time appear “down”. Thankfully DL, it’s “not left to you”.

davidylan: ... i have had to leave someone just because she did not fit the "biblical" model of a wife by other's standards.

You blame “others” because you’re a “man pleaser” – quit snivelling. I urge you to learn to “walk your walk”. Funnily enough, I met and married that same girl !

What is being sought here is an unquestioning “aye” for divorce and a silencing of any dissenting voices. What is being sought is a “normalisation” of divorce to justify all those that have already taken that step . Many wilfully and not for reasons to do with abuse per se. Some that do not see that, may unwillingly validate it.

My 3rd point is regards the vilification of men. The campaign against men here is obvious and concerning. Ultimately it will profit neither gender. Opening threads that lend themselves to this is at best ill-advised and at worst spiteful and voyeuristic. Again, many - possibly even some that are spearheading this campaign - don’t see that. Others are unknowingly being seduced by the language.

Unlike some who can only point to “research,” I have had a 360 degree experience of “abuse” and fully appreciate that it can be by either gender, take various forms and vary in degree. It may be “characteristic” of a person, but it may also be “circumstancial”. There may well be situations that are not retrievable, but in many instances full restoration is possible.

I once also “had a position” but “reality and experience” have given me pause for thought. The Bible says it is folly to judge a matter on hearing just the one side. Do we assume women are gold diggers or black widows as a starting point?

I may well be mistaken at times, I may also seem overzealous. But I will always argue for truth and for balance , and without fear or favour. I will always testify of Gods faithfulness and declare His goodness in my life.

@Afamdman - thanks for your objectivity and counsel.

Best
TV

Tgirl4real: Bless ur union. I am happy u have a blissful marriage.

Thank you. Too kind.

Tgirl4real: Yours is a testimony that blesses the heart. However, it does not mean that bible believers that built on the rock still can't meet a brick wall in marriage.

The use of the term "brick wall" is somewhat ambiguous? If that means problems, yes, but if it means it deteriorates to point it cannot endure, I need to know why?

Tgirl4real: Are u denying that it's purely by God's grace your marriage is working? Forget that you think you know the principles, you should realise that it takes two to make this thing work. If your spouse starts misbehaving towards you, I bet u won't be finding it easy.

Absolutely by grace. Does that mean I can take the grace of God in vain and not apply the principles? And assume that the grace of God means I can take it for granted. Absolutely not.

- In as much as I work on my marriage, it's not from a base level. It's from a high degree of harmony, mutual affection, and a unified vision. We had this from the get-go. No mago-mago, no gamesmanship, no scheming. I'm still learning about my wife as an individual, understanding her better, to love her the more.

- Misbehaving? Why not use the term "abuse" and assume she's a psychopathic axe-weilding murderess - which is what many here do when it's a mans conduct that is in view .

- If my wife demonstrated conduct unbecoming, I'd want to know why. Firstly as her wellbeing is a top priority and secondly because I want no delterious things in or around my marriage.Note; not about me, my feelings or what I can bear. It's my sacrificial service to my wife , the health of my marriage and the well-being of my family.

- Then I'd address it with her as best I could, find the source and agree a solution together. I'd be on my knees as well. I won't believe that The Lord will abandon me. This would be even if we didn't marry as Christians and I'd converted.

Tgirl4real: I am not canvassing for divorce. But I don't see why we should compel someone to live with an unrepentant abusive spouse all in the name of Christianity. If one spouse is not willing to do what it takes to make the marriage work, I don't believe it's right to hold the other spouse bound. I asked about handling sexual urges, but I guess that isn't important here.

- I am canvassing for marriage. As God intended it.
- Abusive? As in axe-wielding fire-starting "man" abi? I need to know the specifics. In any event I have oputlined my position severally
- So let me get this right. One - the woman - is a believing born-again (your term) Christian, and the other one is an unrepentant abusive male unbeliever? And he's not willing to make the marriage work. My question here is are you sure that he actually wants to be in the marriage?

Tgirl4real: Ok. But u will agree, they are additional issues anyway.

Additional. I suppose And unique to marriage

Tgirl4real: Let me throw the question back at you; why would God be so bothered about the success of your marriage in the first place when it was a choice you made after all. Marriage is one of the non-essentials of the Christian faith. Marriage is not compulsory, so, I don't believe God is bound to help you make it work esp. if it will affect your salvation/sanity. He cares about your general well being; spirit, soul and body. How you choose to live in that body, you will account for.

1. Because God is concerned about everything about those who are His.
2. Marriage is an institution established by God for mankind, for our good. How much more for His own?
3. No marriage is not essential to salvation if that's what you mean. But there is the "whole of life" while we are here on earth and marriage is a big part of that. And God cares
4. "Marriage is not compulsory" - I find this one of the most bogus and hypocrital - or plainly unthinking - statements I havbe heard on NL. If marriage is not compulsory, why is almost everyone married, has been married, plans to marry, or is fighting for divorce and re-marriage? Y'all are funny. Who is raising or planning to raise children with that ringing in there ears? So no, it's not "compulsory", but's it's instituted and prescribed - by God - and it's central to human society.

Tgirl4real: I guess so, cos it seems u are eager to close the chapter. But I will surely wanna have this conversation with you again some years down the line. I may not be a first hand case, hence no case study. But I believe there will be by then.

Cool!

Tgirl4real: Let me bring this up again;

I asked this question some months back. I have a friend that has been subjected to abuse from her spouse for a while, it finally got out, they seperated for about a week, 3rd party got involved and they are now back together. However, she still can't connect sexually with her hubby. She has forgiven him, though he isn't truly repentant. His apologies are just mere lip service. How can she solve this intimacy issue and connect back with her husband? Divorce is not an option of course.

I can't make assumptions about the "abuse". Having said that, I can comment.

In as much as there was mediation, a clear basis for reconciliation should have been outlined.
"Isn't truly repentant" The abuse has not stopped? or it has, but he's not really apologetic? I'll assume the latter, as action for the fromer would presumably be as before?

The abuse has stopped. Wifey is not satisfied that hubby is suitably apologetic? I will depart from the other views.

1. If she truly wants to stay in the marriage and is after the outcome of a harmonious, loving union, she needs to act it. As hard as it may be, she needs to see beyond her hurt.

2. It may take time, but she needs to resume the sacrificial posture of a good wife.

3. His part is to respond in turn - having been won over by her conduct - restoration will follow.

4. No mention of faith, but if it exists, work it.

I've spent so much time on replying your post TG,, I don't know if I have time to point out the schoolboy errors in some of the others.

Faithfully
TV

Tgirl4real: Depending on ur def of success. In d Christian context, yes. But it doesn't guarantee plenty richies and wealth.

Wealth is not in view here. We are discussing a fulfilling and harmonious marriage

Tgirl4real: Ok. U shouldn't be asking dat question now. U made it sound like as a Christian u have 100% guarantee ur marriage will work, forgetting that it takes 2 to make a marriage work. Secondly, Christ's primary purpose of coming is salvation not for marital bliss.

Does God fall short? Does The Lord fail to deliver? I can only testify of my own union. Uxury is us! Truth is we simply never have any "problems with each other". Troubles, yes, but we take comfort and strength in knowing we face them together. God is with us, His grace is on us. I simply will not deny Him. Neither myself or my wife have ever been physically threatening or abusive towards one another, never sworn at each other and never raised our voices at each other. We are deliriously happy. Like we say in boxing - yes 0, I boxed - train hard, fight easy. It's in the foundation. Built upon The Rock.

Tgirl4real: And the unmarried don't? The divorced don't?

We are saying samething here. No matter your situation, u will face challenges, but it's worse when u are married. 1Cor 7

It's not necessarily worse. Marriage just has it's own unique set of issues, which may or may not present themselves to individual marriages. We/I had troubles before we even married. It's why it's for the mature and committed.

In our marriage we have experienced trouble. None that give leave for diovorce scripturally. But of course, if one of us is feeling the troubles we face are too much - or perhaps there is better on offer elsewhere - then of course we can.

Tgirl4real: I don't understand your point here.

I beieve I've covered that now?

Tgirl4real: Lol. Dare not. God can and even do much more. So, why not leave it to God to decide if he wants to save or not.

Is God capricious? Whimsical?? Why would He lead you into a bad marriage and then leave you there to be man or woman handled till divorce is your only remedy?

Tgirl4real: May be I am backslidden, but I no longer agree that marriage even amongst Christians should be a do or die affair. And dat does not mean to say divorce is the best answer.

Do or die? I've always suspected that many marriages are simply manage-manage affairs of convenience, for the wrong reasons, at the wrong time, with wrong understanding and and woefully wrong expectations. That's not what God instituted, and not what we should aspire to. Your walk with God is between you and Him.

Are we done?

Best
TV

ileobatojo: Lol. Uneducated people who want to remain uneducated will not be the death of me in this place. Tying one down and flogging, dragging one along the floor by their hair are surely not serious enough. And you say I need help? Okay o abused people, wait until your spouse smashes your head in with a pestle before you know it's serious.

What ever you - or that person close to you - went through must have been serious eh? So bad that you are simply unable to broach the subject without a red haze and a total lack of balance. Do yourself a favour, leave the subject alone until you are better.

Abuse = "Tying one down and flogging, dragging one along the floor by their hair".

ileobatojo: For the reasonable people with an ear please know that research has proven that abuse most often escalates instead of improves. Even if it doesn't, people can die from just one push.

How objective and insightful. That's right fella's, if your wife pushes you, divorce her sharp-sharp. Take heart guys, at least one person will support you.

Let me not aggravate your condition any further.

Sorry 0!

TV

ileobatojo: This dangerous and false belief is basically the long and short of your position on this issue. It is what all your other statements are borne of. All you are doing is working backwards from this position and it is why you shut down all other opinions including factual ones because they don't fit into this belief. It is also the reason why it's essentially pointless discussing this topic with you.

I quickly realized that the majority of dissenting voices on that thread are essentially of this position. People who believe that a happily remarried divorcee is more dangerous than a physical abuser.

I'm not really going to engage in a back and forth. I just want to highlight this to those who wish to do so. So they know it is an exercise in futility.

Betray yourself loud and clear. As an ardently biased and unable to read and interprete clearly.

We are talking abuse. Without prejudice. Aware that it can be any gender, take different forms and vary in it's degree of seriousness.

But I'm sure any neutral and objective person can see that you and your ilk are pursuing it solely as extreme violence by men against women.

Get help for whatever it is that ails you.

Regards
TV

Tgirl4real: My dear, does being a christian guarantee success in marriage? NO

Does trusting in the Lord guarantee success/an expecteded end in marriage?

Tgirl4real: There are no guaranties. You stand a better chance cos you have the Holy Spirit to guide u, but there are no guaranties.

And if the Holy Spirit guides you and you obey, is that surety, or does it merely improve the odds? Not to mention that there are those who do not acknowledge God that have great marriages. So what is the point of faith or walking with God?

Tgirl4real: Even the bible says those that marry will face many troubles.

And the unmarried don't? The divorced don't?

In our marriage we have experienced trouble. None that give leave for diovorce scripturally. But of course, if one of us is feeling the troubles we face are too much - or perhaps there is better on offer elsewhere - then of course we can.

I have answered all questions posed. I have asked only one across multiple threads;

Is Gods hand too short? Is He not able? Can He not make dead and make alive again? Does he not know the beginning from the end?

Romans 3:4
Indeed, let God be true but every man a liar. As it is written: "That You may be justified in Your words, And may overcome when You are judged."

Judge God if you so dare!

Regards
TV

Tgirl4real: Sincerely, I still can't fathom that kinda reasoning. I know there are laws and there are rules. But, aint we suppose to look at the greater good? Would God rather prefer u die in the hands of an abusive partner or get out? Is there anywhere it is written in black and white in scriptures that you should seperate when one partner is abusing the other? Are we not the ones recommending this approach?

How do u want a young divorcee (or onr seperated with no hope of reconciling with partner) to handle sexual urges?

Don't mix issues.

First we are talking about a spectrum of abuse. I've said the remedy depends on the variables. You appear to be fixating on extreme physical instances. In those cases separate yourself from harm.

Why concern yourself with what God prefers? He did not intervene to begin with right?

Again, I don't know the history of this divorce or why. I always work to the template. I always point to the foundation. A believer marrying in God should not be getting to that position.

I'll stop this without completing or editing as I have to pop out. I'll tidy it up later

Best
TV

Tgirl4real: More like treating each individual according to what he/she can handle. Wait o . . .what if you fall out of love with your hubby during the process of abuse nko? Let's say you have forgiving and you have healed, but you are not willing to go back probably cos there are still no visible changes from the other party. Won't you want to protect yourself from further abuse?

- He slapped me once after 2 years. I'm divorcing? No more dinners since the baby came, I'm being abused? This approach simply makes it subjective.
- I fell out of love. Forget the committment I made?
- I've said it repeatedly separate yourself from an unhealthy situation, avoid harm.

The Bible is clear

- Marry a believer
- If you claim you are and were a faithful believer before marriage, I need to understand Gods role in all this if you claim you married wrongly?
- In any event if you convert during the marriage and your unbelieving spouse wants to stay, you are exhorted to remain
- There is leeway if the unbelieving spouse chooses to leave
- If they choose to stay and you encounter problems, is your get out "you are an unbeliever, I can divorce you"? I would say you go through the steps you would with a normal believing spouse.

Tgirl4real: I agree and that is what I am saying instead of applying a blanket approach.

Be as that may be, the biblical guidance does not change, only the situation. If it's subject to what you can bear, or what you feel, it becomes a free for all. Or as the world says "irreconcilable differences"

Tgirl4real: Are u saying it isn't possible for people to hide their true character?

Are you saying it would remain hidden from God? Which is essentially the crux here. What is it you actually believe? Who is it you actually believe in. Are you a believer and is He truly in it.

Tgirl4real: Fruits of repentance after the abuse.

If he shows no repentance after the abuse it's dependant on what that is, as you are now making it subjective. If it's danger of physical harm, then you stay apart

Tgirl4real: No, you are not. U didn't answer the last question.

Again, I'm talking bible and for believers. But ultimately can you walk with God and be led into a bad marriage, not be given succour and be told to divorce? You are essentially saying faith or not, belief or not you are OYO. In which case forget faith, what is the point of believing?

Best
TV

Tgirl4real: For me, verbal, physical, financial and any kind of abuse leads to psychological abuse eventually. You can't escape it. The kind of treatment I will term as abuse, some might be able to live with it. So, I don't think judging the situation based on the degree, or impact of the abuse is the way to go.

So what is the way to go?

I won't over-analyse it. We should know what is unacceptable behaviour and nip it in the bud if it occurs - both ways. At every point remediation and healing should be sought. If there is the danger of harm, then separation should be considered and at some point 3rd part intervention.

Every instance, situation and couple are unique.

Tgirl4real: What is wrong is wrong because we can't predict humans. If you say it's not in the person's character and he or she later turn violent in the future; thereby leading to permanent disability for the other partner, what happens?

This sounds like the "there were absolutely no signs" premise I've heard pushed. In the absence of serious trauma do people just "turn violent"? As for "permanent disability", even if a person were to change, unless it's the "overnight change into a demon" some are also pushing, then I've noted that if potential harm is perceived, there are steps to be taken.

Tgirl4real: Concerning the first question: you refused to take cognisance of "not showing forth fruit of repentance". If the perceived unbelieving partner is indifferent about the marriage crashing or not, would u still recommend that the other partner remain in the union cos of the faith?

Wouldn't that appear like he is forcing herself on her?

Fruits of repentance after the abuse? or after finding out they are not actually a believer?
The bible is clear where both are believers and if one is a/becomes a believer.

Hope I'm clear
TV

Tgirl4real: Also, can we break down the type, stage and seriousness of abuse?

To what point?

Is it verbal, physical, psychological, financial, a combo? Does it depend on the perceived impact on the receiver? Is it incipient or chronic? Is it characteristic of the person or circumstantial? Each case is unique.

Best
TV

Tgirl4real: Actually, I do share like faith, that is why I asked for your stance. I know u from way back.

Thanks for the response.

Talking from the unbeliever angle, if u married this person thinking he is a believer and abuse sets it (discovered he/she isn't saved after all)...ok, u suggested a seperation with room for external intervention, healing and remediation. If d unbelieving partner isn't showing forth fruits of repentance, would you encourage the believing partner to insist on staying in the union? I believe the bible made allowances for this.

Secondly, I would think the believing party should be allowed to remarry in this case. No?

Lets cut to the chase here. 1st Corinthians 7 abi?

So are you saying they were both professing believers prior to marriage and then one becomes an unbeliever after (or was lying in the first place)?

In any event you are to stay with your unbelieving spouse unless they wish to depart, so abuse would be treated as if the two are believers.

There still remains the question of how you - a believer, faithful and under Gods care - were able to marry an unbeliever in the first place? Even if the spouse is/was not.

This has been the main thrust of a lot of my posts on this topic here and elsewhere. If you are a believer, seeking Gods face, faithful and trusting are you really saying that you will ask for an egg and he will give you a stone? That is essentially to level a charge against God. So perhaps you should be questioning if either of you were believers prior to the marriage.

Now for a believer who came to faith after marriage, there is perhaps leeway. If the unbelieving spouse departs post-conversion the bible says they are not under bondage. Let the believing brother or sister act according to faith/conscience. I certainly will not be prescriptive here.

But as Christians, we are warned not to marry unbelievers to start with, so if you do that, what does that say? After all, your charge is against the offending/unbelieving spouse.

Attempting to use 7:15 as an out questions your belief in the first place or Gods involvement if you insist you did.

For the record, I believe marriage is not only open to believers, but believers should marry with the unique dictates of the faith in mind.

Best
TV

Tgirl4real: U still haven't answered my question sir.

If u effect zero tolerance from day 1 and it happened again like after a year, then it became like more frequently....what would you advise such to do?

U are right, yelling and all is enough to put a strain on d union and with that, it's just a matter of time before it escalates into sum'n else.

I meant zero tolerance against any type of ungallant or ungracious behaviour from day 1 of marriage, not after the first instance of abuse.

If you are saying abuse starts then is dealt with, then starts again and escalates, I would go back to my first response.

That really does depend. The type, the stage, the seriousness

Healing and remediation should be persisted with, but if it escalates to a degree that may be considered harmfull, seperation should be considered and an increase in the external intervention considered.

Just to be clear, I never counsel divorce, as I do not believe it necessarily pre-supposes re-marriage. Hence you are saying "I cannot forgive this person" or "this person can never change" and "I'd therefore rather remain unmarried. Would God forsake Israel? Would Christ put away His bride?



Even if you come to faith after marriage, the Bible says the unbeliever can be won by the conduct of the believer. God can heal at any point if He is called upon. As a believer, I choose to believe that.

Obviously if you don't share or have like faith you may have different views. These are just mine.

Best
TV

Ihedinobi: Bro, I think I've answered your questions in many forms already. It's starting to look to me as if all you want to do is fault my position not evaluate it.

I can do neither unless I first understand it.

Ihedinobi: So, rather than deal with this like the interview that it was meant to be, I am going to turn it into a debate.

I was supposed to interview you Are you like...famous !

Ihedinobi: If you fail to address yourself appreciatively to it, I'll consider your position on abusive relationships unworthy of consideration. But before I do so. . .

I thought you were the one who wanted to state his position on "abusive relationships"?

Ihedinobi: What would you call the multitude that Jesus said will cry to Him on that day saying, "Lord, but we healed, we preached, we cast out devils in your name" but to whom He will say, "depart from me, ye workers of iniquity, I never knew you"? Are they Christians? When they sin, can it be called a child's (read: Christian's) disobedience to his father (read: God)?

Nor sure what your point is here, but I'll try;
Those who rejected/rebelled against the The Lord in deed.Lip servers.

Ihedinobi: If the "non-marriage" itself is unacceptable to God, don't we already have a problem? Does "repeating the cycle" make the problem in the first intance go away? If it is a false marriage (that is what I more accept it to be), what God wants to do is to heal it and make it true.

But that is why I'm questioning; you stated that it is acceptable, that God recognises them, hence my seeking to clarify.

Ihedinobi: Malachi 2:15 and 1 Corinthians 7:14b hold the answer you seek.

Perhaps it would be best if you just got on with posting an exposition of your views on "abusive relationships"which is where this is heading is it not? A clear narrative outline of your view on marriage may help, but then again might not not be required

Ihedinobi: Your next response, my brother, will decide a lot. I suggest you give it good thought.

Decide a lot? Like the outcome of the presidential poll? My bonus numbers?? Dude we are free men on a public forum. Think about that.

Best
TV

Ihedinobi: As for what I said, yes, there was not a real covenant in the first place to break, thus what we see as and call divorce is, in God's eyes, essentially an acceptance of the reality of the absence of the true covenant. Hence, it is acceptable.

So you've said as follows;

1. Men are allowed to take marital vows and enter into the marital covenant and God recognises that?
2. However if it's not "cemented" by God - before or during and agreed by both partners - it's not really marriage?
3. As it's not really marriage, they can separate and it's not really divorce? No harm done?

This of course begs a whole heap of questions;

1. Are they fornicating? And if they are "unfaithful" does it count as adultery, or still fornication?
2. They can presumably repeat this cycle of "non-marriage" marriage ad-infinitum, as it's not of God. No problem?
3. Please explain God's purpose for marriage for mankind in light of this.

Ihedinobi: @TV01, I appeal to you to make your responses a tad more timely so that we can delve into the real issue in good time.

Apologies, I did say.

Tgirl4real: I also had the mind of calling TV out to ask what abused women (or partner as the case may be) should do when faced with abuse in marriage. I guess he can answer me here as well. And it is also directed at the OP since he believes marriage is a do or die affair.

That really does depend. The type, the stage, the seriousness - first slap after 2 years or daily attacks with blunt instrument - every situation is unique.

My stance is first get the foundation right. I know the question is "the marriage is in effect na and abuse is happening", to which I would say this; Nip it n the bud. A slap after 2 years should be easily remediated. Does it go from lovey-dovey to "death-match showdown" overnight? I'd also say - and I know it's foundational still - not only should you effect zero tolerance from day 1, but like we did, beware of the small things like yelling, little jibes etc, all which can escalate. Even if not to outright abuse, but to a kind of frission between the couple.

Best
TV

Tgirl4real: hahahahhahaha oops!!! Sorry sir

Ermm . . . just check your mail i.e. the one you get your NL notifications on.

If u can't find it, please check your spam folder.

Ok I got it now - it was in my Junk folder lol! I though there was some funky NL "messenger" type functionality where people could ping each other on/in NL. So a NL "PM" actually goes to one's e-mail address?

Thanks again.

TV

Tgirl4real: Well said!

I sent you a mail sir.

Thanks TG. Errr....I'm so embarrassed . How do I access it?

Long One: Question for you; how do you explain these ‘unbelievers’ that get married and are still able to sustain their marriage till death do them part?

Not that I am trying to dispute your statement, rather, I agree, but it’s one of those few things that puzzles me.

God gave marriage to mankind. Marriage is for all - not to say that everyone will. However, in a "Christian context" there are some faith-specific peculiarities about it. You don't have to be a Christian to marry or to marry successfully.

Best
TV

...SIL came from upstairs enraged and screaming threats, she then stood in front of BIL and cursed some more. There was enough time for some sharp well-meaning fellow to sense things could escalate and quickly step-in...

Ihedinobi: @TV1, do you have more questions or can we go on to look at abusive relationships in the light of my answers?

Not quite, I'm sure the discussion will flow, but I'd appreciate if you could first clarify the following;

Ihedinobi: This is what marriage is. God takes two people and bonds them so that they become one and produce one kind of thing, not two.

This means that in a situation where this is not the underlying reality, there is really no break when the two "in covenant" walk away from each other.

Are you saying where God has not Himself done the grafting it is essentially a "non-covenant" and therefore divorce is permmisable? Infact, it's not actually divorce per se - or not actually divorce spiritually?

Please forgive my tawdriness in response and my general slowness.

Regards
TV

mazaje: There is such a thing as reflex action and anger. . .Some people can control their reflexes and anger others can't. . .Even if we are to go by the religious line. . The bible says anger is cruel and destrcutive. . .Bottom line is don't go about hitting men that are much stronger than you as a woman thinking you will get away with it. . .If a woman hits me in such a situation as my friend's younger brother's wife hit to him(In public in front of kids and adults alike, what the hell was she thinking?). .I will hit her back and she will never try to hit any body in her life again. . .At least not when she is obviously wrong and feels she can get away with it. . .

Point taken. In the heat of the moment who can legislate for what may happen?

On balance the Bible leading is to sue for and keep the peace. And in all humility with a real desire for forgiveness and reconciliation.

I know of one such instance where the SIL slapped the BIL. Quick action by those in attendance - it was at an "event" -stopped his intended retaliation. Till today they haven't been able to settle it. How much more exacerbated would it have become if He'd manage to beat her to the point of unconsciousness?

A slap for a slap? Hmmm perhaps, but to beat ones brothers wife unconscious And to be able to consider doing that in the cold light of day. Please.

Even a cursory glance of the scenario you outlined is shivery.

1. Beating to the point of unconsciousness??
2. He administered the beating in front of children?? (not to mention the hot salvo administered to his nephew 0!)
3. You only got involved when she appeared as dead??
4. He's an MD - in the UK this sounds like a quick-fire striking-off if reported.

Two wrongs don't make a right.

Matthew 5:9 Blessed are the peacemakers, For they shall be called sons of God.

Best
TV

mazaje: No one has a monopoly of violence. . .Women are physically weaker than men as such they should never be the once to throw the first punch. Not long ago I didn't stop a friend's younger brother from giving my friend's wife the beating of her life when she slapped him in our precence and also in the precence of her kids and some other kids for correcting her very stubborn child who was just so unbearable. The child was all over the place beating other kids and cursing out at the adults(House maid and another lady) that were trying to calm him down. When the uncle came in and tried to calm him down the child insulted the uncle and kicked him . The uncle then beat him up. The child ran to his mum who came down screaming and swearing(she wasn't interested in knowing what had happend) and gave her husband's younger brother two dirty slaps in our presence. Imagine the stupid woman slapping a medical doctor because she feels she is crazy. The guy gave her the beating of her life. I only intervened when I felt she was dead because she was unconscious for a while. She passed out and I quickely went and pulled the guy away from her. She ended up being sick for about a week because of the serious beating she recieved. If I find my self in his shoes I will do the same thing he did. If any woman slaps me in that kind of circumstance I MUST slap back and beat her up. Animals need to be treated as animals and human beings need to be treated as human beings. If you behave like and animal thinking because you are a woman you will get away with it then be sure to be treated as one. My two cents. . .

Some may consider that approach justified and the action provoked, but my counsel would be to take no more than "defensive" action and "evasive" steps if possible. I'd hate to think I'd beat anyone to the point of unconsciousness even if they provoked it or seemingly deserved it. Male or female.

If say a man's wife loses it - for whatever reason, would he be demonstrating headship, maturity and cool (not to mention Christlikeness for those of like faith) if his considered response was to beat his wife unconscious? I think not.

@OP without venturing into extremes, I'd have to say no, but extreme stuff does happen.

Best
TV

dayokanu: How did we get here from the opening.

I saw this thread growing and growing I thought it was a joke. It has taken me over 24hrs to catch up

Lol bro' you bin late for class. We've touched on Finance, interpersonal skills, religious knowledge, ethics and semantics to name a few. However, we appear to be struggling with problem solving and conflict resolution. Any ideas?

Best
TV

...so would it be right to say that a "failure" for a co-habitation - marriage transacted without God - could range from unhappiness, unfullfilment to divorce?

If so, l would appreciate clarification on your point about divorce being in some way permissable for co-habitees?

Thanks
TV

Pitykitten: TV01,I understand you. And no,that post wasn't too long.

You must realise though,that your posts somewhat infer that the abused it to blame. There must be cases of victims who were well-behaved,submissive lovers of God. Please do not justify abuse.

For the most part I've focused on the run-up as opposed to the actual jump. I've been focusing on preventative measures as opposed to remedies. Having said that, I clearly stated the abuse is in no way justifiable and the abuser must take responsibiity for his actions.

If any well-behaved, submissive lover of God transacted their union in God and remained Godly and there was abuse and they were unhappy with the outcome I'd suggest they take that up with God.

Neither can I be held responsible for what you choose to "somewhat infer" into my posts. Although I'm always happy to clarify if specifics are brought to my attention.

One other thing, at the point of transaction, one must understand and be willing to accept responsibility for what they transact into. That is separate from the accountability of abuse, but an accountability all the same.

I'm afraid I have little else by way of consolation.

Regards
TV

[quote author=Efemena_xy]TV01

Does your religion justify abuse? 'cos that's the message I'm getting from you.[/quote]No it doesn't.
Please show me where I've resorted to abuse and I'll make amends. In fact I apologise in advance of your showing me.
I could point out instances from you, but I'd rather just appreciate it happened in the spirit of hearty debate and forgive.

T"pious to the power p"V

[quote author=baby_123]This TV no dey tire. It or he is definitely a spambot or in serious denial. Grandpa TV, Judge first class, leave me alone abeg. I don't have the time to entertain you. And don't talk about my family cause you are clueless on that front. My name is baby, because I am the baby, so all my siblings are older. Now does it amaze you that most married men still have that mentality? Stop swimming in high waters with high tide. Abuse simply cannot be justified. Male or female. You seem so concerned about this thread. If you have been abused, leave your story or read from the sidelines.

I have an assigment for Grandpa TV the religious hypocrite. How about you open a thread on how religion, especially christianity has contributed to the damage of the family system, by promoting and supporting abuse? Reflect on that. Don't worry, there we will fight to the end.[/quote]Please don't take offence, I only repeated parts of your post to underline my position. No slight intended. I do so in the hope that some will shine eye and avoid heartache, as opposed to remain ignorant and look for feet at which to lay the blame afterwards.

You're going to have to fail me on that assignment I'm afraid. Christianity has only ever championed the family, emancipated women and blessed us with the marital union. Some people professing christianity may have done otherwise, but I can't speak for them, hence I won't be opening any such thread.

Regards
TV

Pitykitten: T[color=#770077][/color]The main reason? Although many here will scream and champion their rights as adults, they simply are not mature enough to handle adult intimate relationships at that age or been instructed about intimacy in the correct paradigm. With all the self-esteem in the world, it's setting them up to fall.

WHEN YOUNG WOMEN ARE FREE TO AND ENCOURAGED TO BE INTIMATE WITH MEN, THEY ARE BEING ABUSED. REGARDLESS OF HOW BLISSFULLY SWEET OR EXTREMELY VIOLENT THE RELATIONSHIP IS.


Best
TV

@TV01,oh wow...that was quite a long post. Won't even argue with you,I'm guessing that would be a collosal waste of time. How do you explain abuse in marriage then? Is the abused still too young to understand relationship?

It's not an arguement. That's my POV. Happy to hear alternative ones.

Not to be funny, but one thing I've learned is that I'm not God.

Liken marriage to an egg. God says, deliver it this way, treat it thus and handle in this manner. You don't, and it breaks. I can't fix that. Only God can. All I can do is draw attention to the original instruction.

When the Bible talks marriage it is in reference to a union correctly transacted. Indeed it starts from birth and correct Godly nurture and instruction from a tender age.

So someone marries for papers, by entrapment, to get money or for any number of wrong reasons, incorrect motivations or faulty basis and the egg breaks. There's very little I can do. The damage has been done, the egg is cracked and broken - and there's always a reason for it cracking. All the proponents of this thread are looking to do is ascribe blame. They have offered nothing by way of resolution. I'm not sure they are really interested.

Hope that wasn't overly long.

Regards
TV

[quote author=Efemena_xy]^^ Are the taunts and snide remarks necessary? [/quote]I've posted your own portion!

Happy now ?

[quote author=Efemena_xy]I don't know what you're on about here Mr TV01, but you certainly come across as a self-centered, unaccommodating "Christian".

If I were a muslim, Hindu, atheist, what sort of advice would you give me, if I were seeking help on issues relating to abuse?[/quote]

See, this is the beef I've got with our so-called born-again-bible-wielding-holier-than-thou-Christian brothers. We're all human beings and whether they like it or not, we as humans do have physical needs. There is a saying: Body nor be wood. It's no mean feat fighting your hormonal needs. You need to be superhumanly disciplined to do that. Heck, even religious leaders who swear oaths of celibacy do succumb to their physical needs.

Presumably you are not Christian? "body nor be wood"? How about "He gives more grace to the humble". How about Self-control as a fruit of the spirit?

Those of other faiths have their worldviews and philospohies. I'm a Christian. I advise out of mine. If you don't agree or believe, I have no quibbles. Indeed,I'd like to hear differing views from whatever belief system.

"NL #1 so-called born-again-bible-wielding-holier-than-thou-Christian brother"
TV

debrief08: Oga I thought we had passed this na, I already confessed, am a miserable disobeidient sinner and my sins got me what i deserved. Do you want it in writing and translated into major languages? I don confess na.

Learned friend, why are you so insistent?

No one asked you for a confession and no one condenmed you.

You villified everyone in your testimony except your second husband, whom you described as "A covenant man and a gift from God". Yet you claim you were faithfull to God from start to finish.

All we would like to understand is what was God's involvement as per husband number 1? Was he not a covenant gift from God? If he wasn't, why was there no sign, if he was, why did he turn demonic and God not intervene. Or was Gods leading too divorce? In all of this, what was the divine purpose of what you went through?

It's only a question. Far from calling you anything, you have declared yourself blameless, even it seems willing to deflect blame to the heavens.

Oh yeah, I figured out the name of the dance your doing; how could I be so slow? It's the "pants on fire" dance.

So "Debrief the Beatified", please ansa qweshun.

Go DB, go DB....

TV

Maran1983 and Icherishu have recently commented. Painfull experiences to be sure.

They join Freecocoa, Deepwater and Baby123. Young ladies, around (at the time of the incidents) of or around college age. Indeed at college.

Isn't it instructive that they all were very explicit about "how together" they were/are? No lack of self-esteem or self-awareness in any of the instances.

Yet none of them were mature enough or posessed the understanding to not only avoid violent/abusive young men, they actually entered into and endured relationships with them. Suffering horrors.

The main reason? Although many here will scream and champion their rights as adults, they simply are not mature enough to handle adult intimate relationships at that age or been instructed about intimacy in the correct paradigm. With all the self-esteem in the world, it's setting them up to fall.

I earlier referenced the thread - the fake superstory concerned mother of college daughter - where this arguement was raised, and posed some questions about how we raise our children. I was labelled naive. Of couse they must have sex they are old enough to choose. Their prescribed remedy? Wink, get them some street smarts and condoms and hope they avoid STDs and unwanted pregnancies. Plus they are always other remedies even for these right !

We are so much smarter and up to date than the God aren't we - even though we pay Him lip-service? Oh darn, we forgot about the potential damage done from these kind of relationships outside of those two things. Not to worry, we'll just mount campaigns villyfying men and let the abusers take the rap. No accountability, culpability, responsibility, blame or fault on our part. Please, lets get back to our circles. Lots of decreasing still to be done.

WHEN YOUNG WOMEN ARE FREE TO AND ENCOURAGED TO BE INTIMATE WITH MEN, THEY ARE BEING ABUSED. REGARDLESS OF HOW BLISSFULLY SWEET OR EXTREMELY VIOLENT THE RELATIONSHIP IS.

Then you start other threads asking "How much of our past should we reveal to potential spouses?" Two words; dots and join.

Freecocoa can even come up in here, give advice, coruscate people with alternate POV, while she's in an unheathy relationship. How ironic is that? And none of the on-message crew could simply say "stand-down". No, no, no, instead they got all cryptic. How hypocritical.

Forget about the anomoly of the sugar daddy thing for now, but where young men are going into your daughters, they consider your daughters prey. Or if kind, game - and in some ways those two things are the same thing.

Baby123 even talked about the brutish way her brothers talked about women. Immature women and callow youth. Could there be a more toxic mix?

Self esteem is not the key. Thats merely a coded way of saying proud.


Instead of treading the paths that lead to peace, you wilfully chart your own courses and then spend your time building institutions to deal with the symptons of your short-sightedness and rebellion. NGO's, Parastatals and the like, for the aid of victims would be largely unnecessary. You say you're not having pity parties? Well of course you're not, you're proud of the works of your hands. Besides, building industries is way more fun.

Let those who have understanding nurture their offspring well.

Best
TV

...and still they press on . Going round in ever decresing circles. Unable to join the dots, spot the patterns and re-affirm the God given paths that would solve all this. Instead they insist on their own way. Puffed up and heartily commending themselves, they rejoice in their folly.

As for ascribing blame, here's an insight for you;

A large number of women freely offer themselves up to be abused, to a large degree aided and abetted by their parents, particularly their mothers.

TV