₦airaland Forum

dayokanu: How did we get here from the opening.

I saw this thread growing and growing I thought it was a joke. It has taken me over 24hrs to catch up

Lol bro' you bin late for class. We've touched on Finance, interpersonal skills, religious knowledge, ethics and semantics to name a few. However, we appear to be struggling with problem solving and conflict resolution. Any ideas?

Best
TV

...so would it be right to say that a "failure" for a co-habitation - marriage transacted without God - could range from unhappiness, unfullfilment to divorce?

If so, l would appreciate clarification on your point about divorce being in some way permissable for co-habitees?

Thanks
TV

Pitykitten: TV01,I understand you. And no,that post wasn't too long.

You must realise though,that your posts somewhat infer that the abused it to blame. There must be cases of victims who were well-behaved,submissive lovers of God. Please do not justify abuse.

For the most part I've focused on the run-up as opposed to the actual jump. I've been focusing on preventative measures as opposed to remedies. Having said that, I clearly stated the abuse is in no way justifiable and the abuser must take responsibiity for his actions.

If any well-behaved, submissive lover of God transacted their union in God and remained Godly and there was abuse and they were unhappy with the outcome I'd suggest they take that up with God.

Neither can I be held responsible for what you choose to "somewhat infer" into my posts. Although I'm always happy to clarify if specifics are brought to my attention.

One other thing, at the point of transaction, one must understand and be willing to accept responsibility for what they transact into. That is separate from the accountability of abuse, but an accountability all the same.

I'm afraid I have little else by way of consolation.

Regards
TV

Efemena_xy: TV01

Does your religion justify abuse? 'cos that's the message I'm getting from you.

No it doesn't.
Please show me where I've resorted to abuse and I'll make amends. In fact I apologise in advance of your showing me.
I could point out instances from you, but I'd rather just appreciate it happened in the spirit of hearty debate and forgive.

T"pious to the power p"V

baby_123: This TV no dey tire. It or he is definitely a spambot or in serious denial. Grandpa TV, Judge first class, leave me alone abeg. I don't have the time to entertain you. And don't talk about my family cause you are clueless on that front. My name is baby, because I am the baby, so all my siblings are older. Now does it amaze you that most married men still have that mentality? Stop swimming in high waters with high tide. Abuse simply cannot be justified. Male or female. You seem so concerned about this thread. If you have been abused, leave your story or read from the sidelines.

I have an assigment for Grandpa TV the religious hypocrite. How about you open a thread on how religion, especially christianity has contributed to the damage of the family system, by promoting and supporting abuse? Reflect on that. Don't worry, there we will fight to the end.

Please don't take offence, I only repeated parts of your post to underline my position. No slight intended. I do so in the hope that some will shine eye and avoid heartache, as opposed to remain ignorant and look for feet at which to lay the blame afterwards.

You're going to have to fail me on that assignment I'm afraid. Christianity has only ever championed the family, emancipated women and blessed us with the marital union. Some people professing christianity may have done otherwise, but I can't speak for them, hence I won't be opening any such thread.

Regards
TV

Pitykitten: T[color=#770077][/color]The main reason? Although many here will scream and champion their rights as adults, they simply are not mature enough to handle adult intimate relationships at that age or been instructed about intimacy in the correct paradigm. With all the self-esteem in the world, it's setting them up to fall.

WHEN YOUNG WOMEN ARE FREE TO AND ENCOURAGED TO BE INTIMATE WITH MEN, THEY ARE BEING ABUSED. REGARDLESS OF HOW BLISSFULLY SWEET OR EXTREMELY VIOLENT THE RELATIONSHIP IS.


Best
TV

@TV01,oh wow...that was quite a long post. Won't even argue with you,I'm guessing that would be a collosal waste of time. How do you explain abuse in marriage then? Is the abused still too young to understand relationship?

It's not an arguement. That's my POV. Happy to hear alternative ones.

Not to be funny, but one thing I've learned is that I'm not God.

Liken marriage to an egg. God says, deliver it this way, treat it thus and handle in this manner. You don't, and it breaks. I can't fix that. Only God can. All I can do is draw attention to the original instruction.

When the Bible talks marriage it is in reference to a union correctly transacted. Indeed it starts from birth and correct Godly nurture and instruction from a tender age.

So someone marries for papers, by entrapment, to get money or for any number of wrong reasons, incorrect motivations or faulty basis and the egg breaks. There's very little I can do. The damage has been done, the egg is cracked and broken - and there's always a reason for it cracking. All the proponents of this thread are looking to do is ascribe blame. They have offered nothing by way of resolution. I'm not sure they are really interested.

Hope that wasn't overly long.

Regards
TV

Efemena_xy: ^^ Are the taunts and snide remarks necessary?

I've posted your own portion!

Happy now ?

Efemena_xy: I don't know what you're on about here Mr TV01, but you certainly come across as a self-centered, unaccommodating "Christian".

If I were a muslim, Hindu, atheist, what sort of advice would you give me, if I were seeking help on issues relating to abuse?

See, this is the beef I've got with our so-called born-again-bible-wielding-holier-than-thou-Christian brothers. We're all human beings and whether they like it or not, we as humans do have physical needs. There is a saying: Body nor be wood. It's no mean feat fighting your hormonal needs. You need to be superhumanly disciplined to do that. Heck, even religious leaders who swear oaths of celibacy do succumb to their physical needs.

Presumably you are not Christian? "body nor be wood"? How about "He gives more grace to the humble". How about Self-control as a fruit of the spirit?

Those of other faiths have their worldviews and philospohies. I'm a Christian. I advise out of mine. If you don't agree or believe, I have no quibbles. Indeed,I'd like to hear differing views from whatever belief system.

"NL #1 so-called born-again-bible-wielding-holier-than-thou-Christian brother"
TV

debrief08: Oga I thought we had passed this na, I already confessed, am a miserable disobeidient sinner and my sins got me what i deserved. Do you want it in writing and translated into major languages? I don confess na.

Learned friend, why are you so insistent?

No one asked you for a confession and no one condenmed you.

You villified everyone in your testimony except your second husband, whom you described as "A covenant man and a gift from God". Yet you claim you were faithfull to God from start to finish.

All we would like to understand is what was God's involvement as per husband number 1? Was he not a covenant gift from God? If he wasn't, why was there no sign, if he was, why did he turn demonic and God not intervene. Or was Gods leading too divorce? In all of this, what was the divine purpose of what you went through?

It's only a question. Far from calling you anything, you have declared yourself blameless, even it seems willing to deflect blame to the heavens.

Oh yeah, I figured out the name of the dance your doing; how could I be so slow? It's the "pants on fire" dance.

So "Debrief the Beatified", please ansa qweshun.

Go DB, go DB....

TV

Maran1983 and Icherishu have recently commented. Painfull experiences to be sure.

They join Freecocoa, Deepwater and Baby123. Young ladies, around (at the time of the incidents) of or around college age. Indeed at college.

Isn't it instructive that they all were very explicit about "how together" they were/are? No lack of self-esteem or self-awareness in any of the instances.

Yet none of them were mature enough or posessed the understanding to not only avoid violent/abusive young men, they actually entered into and endured relationships with them. Suffering horrors.

The main reason? Although many here will scream and champion their rights as adults, they simply are not mature enough to handle adult intimate relationships at that age or been instructed about intimacy in the correct paradigm. With all the self-esteem in the world, it's setting them up to fall.

I earlier referenced the thread - the fake superstory concerned mother of college daughter - where this arguement was raised, and posed some questions about how we raise our children. I was labelled naive. Of couse they must have sex they are old enough to choose. Their prescribed remedy? Wink, get them some street smarts and condoms and hope they avoid STDs and unwanted pregnancies. Plus they are always other remedies even for these right !

We are so much smarter and up to date than the God aren't we - even though we pay Him lip-service? Oh darn, we forgot about the potential damage done from these kind of relationships outside of those two things. Not to worry, we'll just mount campaigns villyfying men and let the abusers take the rap. No accountability, culpability, responsibility, blame or fault on our part. Please, lets get back to our circles. Lots of decreasing still to be done.

WHEN YOUNG WOMEN ARE FREE TO AND ENCOURAGED TO BE INTIMATE WITH MEN, THEY ARE BEING ABUSED. REGARDLESS OF HOW BLISSFULLY SWEET OR EXTREMELY VIOLENT THE RELATIONSHIP IS.

Then you start other threads asking "How much of our past should we reveal to potential spouses?" Two words; dots and join.

Freecocoa can even come up in here, give advice, coruscate people with alternate POV, while she's in an unheathy relationship. How ironic is that? And none of the on-message crew could simply say "stand-down". No, no, no, instead they got all cryptic. How hypocritical.

Forget about the anomoly of the sugar daddy thing for now, but where young men are going into your daughters, they consider your daughters prey. Or if kind, game - and in some ways those two things are the same thing.

Baby123 even talked about the brutish way her brothers talked about women. Immature women and callow youth. Could there be a more toxic mix?

Self esteem is not the key. Thats merely a coded way of saying proud.


Instead of treading the paths that lead to peace, you wilfully chart your own courses and then spend your time building institutions to deal with the symptons of your short-sightedness and rebellion. NGO's, Parastatals and the like, for the aid of victims would be largely unnecessary. You say you're not having pity parties? Well of course you're not, you're proud of the works of your hands. Besides, building industries is way more fun.

Let those who have understanding nurture their offspring well.

Best
TV

...and still they press on . Going round in ever decresing circles. Unable to join the dots, spot the patterns and re-affirm the God given paths that would solve all this. Instead they insist on their own way. Puffed up and heartily commending themselves, they rejoice in their folly.

As for ascribing blame, here's an insight for you;

A large number of women freely offer themselves up to be abused, to a large degree aided and abetted by their parents, particularly their mothers.

TV

Ihedinobi: The following is a quote from another post of mine that preceded that one.



The bolded is my answer to the first question.

As for the second, of course, it's not God's way.

I'm still not clear. Is co-habitation merely your way of stating a marriage is not of God? Meaning that your use of the term "marriage" denotes that the union is of God? Or are you using it in it's normal "live-in-lovers" sense?

Further, how do we ensure God cements it before vows or ask Him to do so after? Oris that outside of our control. Does it imply that one that does not fail is of God and one that does is not? Will co-habitations always fail?

So many questions. It would really help if you could outline your premise clearly, perhaps reference scripture. For example saying marriage "is misunderstood", what is the essence ofmarriage as it was intended?

Thanks
TV

...morning,

Ihedinobi: Strictly Christian

Fine! I'll presume we can use the Bible for reference.

I quote you from the previous thread;

@bolded, not quite, I haven't. My posts are of one thought. I had earlier said that there aren't really good or bad marriages, just marriages and cohabitations. My comment which you posted followed from it.

Suffice to say that God respects man's right to do as he pleases. He respects the documents signed and words said as man's effort to build the marriage alliance. But for Him, it is a failed effort unless Himself cements it and He is never under compulsion to do so simply because a couple signed special papers or spoke special words.

When Himself cements it, divorce is a non-issue. When He doesn't, it will fall apart. He is not a vindictive Person so He does not insist on the participants in such an alliance to stick to it till they expire. If the two learn that they are the wrong fit, there are two courses of action available:

1. the couple go to God to be truly married or

2. they accept the failure of their effort and walk away from each other.

If one alone of the couple is submitted to God and seeks true marriage at His hand, it's not enough. The two must agree.

The Lord God does not see as man does. He sees the true nature and reality of things not what we wish they are. So, when He's not the One grafting together, He does not see a marriage or legitimacy of offspring. But He can take a man-made "marriage" if it is offered to Him and turn it into the real thing and heal the confusion of its offspring.

1. What is a "co-habitation"? Is it biblically permissable or not? I think I get what you mean (MOG, COM), but in all instances I'll allow you to explain.

Thanks
TV

...I'll be back!

Ihedinobi hi, apologies for the delay. Long day.

Ihedinobi: From www.nairaland.com/1084309/debrief-cotton101-those-came-out/18

I'm a Christian. I believe that marriage is for life and that divorce is the aberration.

Please table your questions.

I also believe that marriage is for life, that divorce is permitted - not necessarily prescribed - by reason of adultery, but it does not presuppose re-marriage. That can only validly happen in the event of death.

I should probably start from my original question which I didn't feel was fully answered. But first let me ask you this. Are your views strictly Christian, or coloured by other faiths or philosophies?

Best
TV

debrief08: Me sha, I have said already that i am a miserable sinner deserving of punishment and desertion from God, no need for long story. I am a miserable sinner, and God punished me, shey e don do now or need I confess more? I am not holy and faithful like some people, Bad things happen to bad unfaithful people like us, you are so right. Thank God for giving us very wise ones like you to show us miserable sinners the way.

Debrief, don't dance around it. You've been very forthcoming up until now. Just tell us your position with God and Gods involvement.

Your learned friend below is saying God gave you that first man as a husband. Please confirm.

ileobatojo: Oh okay. So once God has chosen a partner for you, that partner immediately becomes an infallible human? And for those who already married a partner that God did not choose, if abused, stay there till God works it through with you whether it be here or in the afterlife? Okay, thanks. I got it now. Appreciate the clarification.

Oh, so God would choose a mad or evil spouse for someone and in a real display of divine humour, hide it from you first. Let your learned friend above quit dancing and tell us that her husband was from God. And that not only was he from God, but that he turned bad and God did not see her through, but rather asked her to divorce or simply abandoned her.

I'll leave the two of you to dance your way to a understanding how God works. please let us know when you get there. Try not to blaspheme now .

Abuse - of any form and by anyone - is a real tragedy and concern. Glossing over your testimonies will lose you credibility. Shutting down open, honest discussion will lose you traction.


Best
TV

ileobatojo: Wow, so now, you are claiming that faithful Christians can never be victims of abuse? So she must have been an unfaithful Christian so God allowed her to be abused? Really? Really? This is the kind of bs Christianity that I now avoid like a plague. Men and women of God the world over who have had bad things happen to them must have been unfaithful right? Pastor Bimbo who died of plane crash, Ilupetaife who was killed by robbers (I think). Multiple men and women of God who have died of cancer and other illnesses must have been unfaithful? Really?

In as much as I am all but done on this thread, I'll respond to this point as it touches on faith/belief and I wouldn't want anyone to get the wrong impression.

First of all though, even if I take it at face value that you innocently - as opposed to wilfully - misunderstood me, may I suggest that in future you ask for clarification where something looks odd, rather than run the risk of mis-ascribing something or running with an erroneous notion. It's both polite and sensible.

I'll illustrate to remove any risk of your innocently, ignorantly, willfully or criminally misunderstanding me this time.

As a Christian man about wanting to "wife", I prepared myself, went to God and entreated Him. I embarked on my search and kept going back to Source. I met enough girls too write a book on . One by one and without too much fuss they were crossed through on my spreadsheet . For the most point this was by using my understanding (all based on biblical principles) and God given discernemnt. Was that necessarily enough? No, I still had instances where I needed God to lead me away from danger -sometimes I only realised after the fact. I am now blissfully married. No gainsaying.

My point being you can't ask God for an egg and he give you a stone? Does it mean God abandons those who call upon Him? No, but if for whatever reason they fail to hear, understand or obey, and find themselves in "situations", God will work through it with them. In truth, I actually believe that God will continue to nudge the faithful in the right direction/way till they get it. It should only go wrong if they willfully - as opposed to ignorantly - disobey.

Geddit? I hope the real-life illustration and pictures helped.

If Debrief or any other person would like to come up in here and say they approached God as I outlined and he delivered then to an axe-wielding, demon-possesses maniac, I'd be interested to hear it.

Best
TV

Busy_body: I was around when you posted your story, I even still have bits of it that you haven't mentioned on this thread floating somewhere in my head. You know this CABAL thing is meaningless and it was something Richvkunt started to scatter this section. How many times have you seen Chaircover advocate divorce? NOT ONCE, so if she was appointed by Richvkunt as the head of the so called pro-divorce Cabal group who alledgedly only preaches divorce, doesn't this tell you that Richvkunt is just pulling people's legs to catch fun, expensive fun at that.

Asides from his puerile rant as an anti-cabalite, Guitarlife was asking those questions which you politely and respectfully answered to see if he could find out why you went through such, and when he couldn't decode the reason, he threw in the towel saying your ex is demon possessed. And I saw your post where you rightly told him off. Then he responded, and some wires got crossed leading to you thinking he called you slow, I am not 100% sure here but their was a lot of speculative hypothesis from him, which you thought he was saying to put you down, and he came back to reply that you had "read" him wrongly.


With regards to the "signs" in your relationship, your ex's Dad from your account was a feckless philanderer, a womaniser, etc, which is not obviously a good role model for anyone let alone a child. As children, our parents are supposed to love us unconditionally and protect us, but your ex's Dad wasn't a permanent fixture in his life, he had a very traumatic childhood, watching not only his Dad mess up his own life but also put his Mum through hell for 40 years. They might have been rich, they might have provided for him materially, but there was no emotional and psychological support from anyone. As a child expecting unconditional love from his parent, and not getting it, he would have undergone a vast range of rollercoaster of emotion ranging from feeling abandoned, discarded, bereft, lonely, marginalised, disorientated, etc. And although Mum too would have tried with the little she could, the role of Dad is irreplaceable. But one cannot imagine the searingly painful awful feeling of betrayal he must have felt towards his Dad. With this kind of fraught and messy childhood, there would have been a time his self-esteem hit rock bottom too several times.


And then he met you, an angel sent from above, he felt secure and safe with you, and found you trustworthy enough to confide his vulnerabilities and past to you. You never judged him, accepted him and got your Dad to take him on as his son. And he vowed to you never to turn out like his Dad. Although he would still have been nursing a reconcilliation with his own Dad where everything would be fine and Dad would be a good Dad again.


You got married, settled down into a routine, and then the babies that are naturally supposed to start popping out are nowhere to be found. Now your Hubby could have picked up one of his Dad's vices, but he didn't, instead hoping that when he gets married he will be the best Dad to his kid and never let them face what his own Dad put him through. So imagine these babies that he had such grand dreams for not coming, imagine the whirlwind of emotion he would have had to endure all over again, imagine the thoughts that if my Father a wicked man can have kids yet I love kids and can't have mine, imagine the renewed profound sense of loss and bewilderment. . .and then he unfairly and cruelly turns on you . . .


Now in the midst of this, his Daddy reaches out to him because he is now rich, but as far as your ex is concerned, this is a chance for him to burn bridges with his Dad and reconcile, no matter the cost, to fill the void in his heart. He starts hanging out with Dad to feel like one of the boys again, cos at least this way his manhood can't be questioned. And when you started kicking a fuss, he probably tells you to leave him alone as you have nothing to offer him as a barren. In trying to suck up to his Dad to let Daddy see that he has arrived, he tells Daddy you are bugging him, and Daddy naturally tells him to "man up" and not let debrief walk all over you. You turn to your friends, families and parents, but you are told to endure that weeping may come for a night blah, blah, blah, in the end, your Dad came to rescue his little baby girl when he couldn't bear it anymore. . .


And because God knows His own, He was there and saw all the tears that you shed. . . He granted you the man of your dreams, God sent you your own angel - your Husband. God gave you a man who refused to take no for an answer and saw you as the woman he wanted to spend the rest of his life with and pursued you relentlessly. You must have told him during dating that you couldn't get pregnant yet this did not put him off and he still loved you to take the risk with you, and miraculously you had no problem getting pregnant for rightaway.


Your case was heavily influenced by the parents. And the advent of his unstable Dad into his life again distabilised your family. Your staunch Christian Mum who still doesn't talk to you because you got divorced and remarried, too didn't help matter. Then you had all those extended members of your family who told you to stay and bear it. Left to you, you would have walked, but the decision was out of your hands due to the judgemental Nigerian Society you live in. But thank God again, for your Daddy, for your ex's Mum. She has been through the same path you have been and walked the walk too, hence became your kindred spirit.


So it wasn't you, you are not to blame for anything, it was your ex, and he was the victim of his upbringing which had had too much hold on him. And it can't be easy for him too. You are indeed a rare gem for reaching out to him and not pushing him away when he needed you the most. But most importantly, cherish your Husband cos he is a very very very good person too, how many man can do what he has done/is doing? Please take very good care of your Husband, your crown jewel and I wish you eternal marital bliss.

oluite: Please why couldn't the others infer this?Was it easier to keep asking consistently what debrief did on her part to cause the abuse?!

BB - kind, but at best conjecture. There could be as many different interpretations as there are readers. And let me ask this, would God let one who is His go through all of that? And to what avail, what purpose? And would God have to use divorce which He hates too bring about His purpose? Wasn't the Angel a little late?

Guitarlife - after a heavy pounding - cited "demon possession" and ran. I have experience of those married to demon possessed spouses. There were signs. They were ignored. There are always pointers.

As to "blame" - call it what you will blame, culpability, responsibility, fault, whatever. No one is blaming an abusee for an abusers responses. That is always the abusers choice. But two things, whatever the vitriol in response, sensible people will always ask 1. why did you transact with this person in the first place and 2. what was it that precipitated the abuse. Perfectly reasonable questions to ask.

Funnily enough I also wrote up my reading of the situation and the main players, but I'll leave that for now. The rub with Debriefs story is that it sounds glossed to the point of being campaign material. At some crucial - easily overlooked points - it just doesn't wash;

1. Prior to marriage he was an angel, and no one saw or said a thing. Barely 6 months after he was a demon?
2. Through all this Debrief remained blameless (I'm not talking unsalted soup here). Whilst every other avatar was villified except her 2nd husband?
3. And even if I had a large dose of incredulity administered, along with a few "belief suspension" tabs and somehow manged to forcibly swallow points 1. and 2., will I really confess that God - and for no apparent reason - abandoned one who was faithful to Him? Lemme open wide, I'm happy to guzzle on vitriol.

Guitarlife - you could have been a little more considered in your posts. And some points were off-point. Membership of a church "sub-group" is no guarantee of anything - kinda like "being close to many pastors" - and wine in moderation is not wrong. But to be sure I get the thrust of your points.

Airspace - For what it's worth, I am really impressed by your humility and willingness to question yourself and be conciliatory. I got what you were trying to say and sensed no rancour in your tone. Please don't shy away from saying it as you understand it, even if wrong. And keep willing to be a dissenting voice.

Best
TV

Morning Ihedinobi,

trust all is well. Wasn't expecting this, but more than happy to discuss. I'll be back at some point later to resume.

Best
TV

Even labelling abusers "subtly mad", misses the point. There are mad men all over town, who would marry an obviously mad person and expect sane behaviour?

Likewise, a person who is not mature enough or suitable for a marriage relationship will possibly manifest that in a number of ways, one of which may be physical abuse. Your first point of duty before entering into marriage is to ensure you are and then your potential spouse is.

The reasons cited by Airpure are some of the shallow reasonings of the "not ready/right" person who unfortunately becomes a spouse.


Now, it would be rude of me to visit JK' thread without a salute of sorts and since JK has been firing off questions, perhaps I'll do the same and at the same time close on the "college girl" scenario in my second post.

JK, you mentioned a situation concerning your sister earlier on. I saw solution - at onset - written all over that. Here's my summary, please correct me if I'm wrong;

1. Your sister was dating/seeing a guy
2. He said something "off"
3. Your sister took it back to your dad/fmily/primary support group
4. The experience/maturity there saw the danger signs that your sister may or may not have
5. They made a call on that basis
6. Your sister made a call
7. relationship over.

I infer as follows;

Your sister, possibly around college age give or tak a few, was effectively submitting herself to familial authority. Early onset "nonsense-talk", let alone "full-blown abuse", was nipped in the bud. Sister remained subject and eventually married (or will) a worthy husband withe support of her family and having grown in understanding of what to look for. Please don't take offense, but l'd hazard a guess that intimacy was not a factor? Otherwise it's hard to decide and act to end a relationship that sharpish. l've been there.

l'm sure l don't have to highlight and detail the differences between this scenario and the 3 examples l cited earlier?

For those that are interested, here were my questions on the earlier thread l mentioned.

The term "adult" is being used quite a bit in this discussion and typically to confer rights to the 20 year old daughter. Just curious, if a two year old fed, clothed and housed by her parents is subject, why is a 20 year old similarly cared for not? These "adult rights", do they not come with responsibilities? Or are they purely a function of age regardless of the care or provision of parents.

Similarly, the word "control" is being used in a pejorative sense. Why shouldn't her parents have control if they have the responsibility? Agree it may be being miss-applied in this instance, but the fact remains, they are still her parents and still sacrificing ad providing for her. Is all control ceded to her just because she turned 20?


And any takers for these two previously asked questions, particularly from people who live "faith- based" lives?


Are we now saying that;

1. It is unrealistic to expect to our children to remain obedient and accountable regards their intimate physical relationships - even whilst they remain under our roofs and our responsibility - once they reach a certain age or level of maturity?

2. It is now all but unnachievable to ask/expect/demand that our children remain chaste before marriage? In fact, it seems the "pragmatic" thing to do is to actually prep them for intimate activity and hope they don't get unwanted pregnancies or catch STD's?

Best
TV

_{...touche BB}

So Aipure is justifying abuse? I certainly missed that. She didn't excuse it as far as I could make out, merely stated reasons why it's happened in her experience.

If what's required here is to crucify abusers to satisfy this "eminently balanced" discussion, it need'nt be 12 pages long.

Some would rather consider this end-to-end, seek some insight and proffer solutions at the root.

To say I met and married someone properly - this assumes you were mature enough to assess the marriage worthiness of a potential spouse and you ratified it with your family and/or other support groups - and yet before you reach mid-term pregnancy he is trying to "beat his child out of you", immolate you, dragging you across the floor by your hair and a host of other almost eye-wateringly brutal acts and the appropriate comment from a non-biased onlooker is too brand him/her a devil without query speaks volumes.

Simply labelling all who abuse devils or characterising someone who slaps once as an abuser is simplistic and simply says we are not really seeking solutions here. Interest in those that got out, without reviewing why/how they went in speaks volumes.

Best
TV

Ihedinobi: @bolded, not quite, I haven't. My posts are of one thought. I had earlier said that there aren't really good or bad marriages, just marriages and cohabitations. My comment which you posted followed from it.

Suffice to say that God respects man's right to do as he pleases. He respects the documents signed and words said as man's effort to build the marriage alliance. But for Him, it is a failed effort unless Himself cements it and He is never under compulsion to do so simply because a couple signed special papers or spoke special words.

When Himself cements it, divorce is a non-issue. When He doesn't, it will fall apart. He is not a vindictive Person so He does not insist on the participants in such an alliance to stick to it till they expire. If the two learn that they are the wrong fit, there are two courses of action available:

1. the couple go to God to be truly married or

2. they accept the failure of their effort and walk away from each other.

If one alone of the couple is submitted to God and seeks true marriage at His hand, it's not enough. The two must agree.

The Lord God does not see as man does. He sees the true nature and reality of things not what we wish they are. So, when He's not the One grafting together, He does not see a marriage or legitimacy of offspring. But He can take a man-made "marriage" if it is offered to Him and turn it into the real thing and heal the confusion of its offspring.

Ok, thanks for your response. I've a clearer idea of your POV, although you haven't stated what your Worldview is based on. I have my thoughts, but I leave you to confirm that or otherwise as you so choose. I would question a lot of those assertions, but do not want to digress to far.

Best
TV

...A well articulated worldview.

Mine's Christian. Driven by a strong belief in The God of my Saviour the Lord Jesus Christ. Simple. My faith colours everything I do and obviously the writings of the Holy Bible come strongly into play. Is it - am I - perfect? Almost certainly not not, is it well-articulated? I try. But at least I hold firm to it.

Regards Marriage and divorce, it's quite simple and very clear.

The only reason for divorce is adultery. The only reason for re-marriage is death. Divorce, if you legitimately choose to take that option does not pre-suppose re-marriage.

Many make reference to the Bible, to a Christian faith, but veer far from the above or try to re-engineer it in defence of actions that contravene it. Either you believe or you dont. You accept it or you don't. But for those that do, there is no shaking.

By all means believe differently, but at least be willing to expound your position and clarify your POV. I believe and by grace live it as is. If I fall short or get it wrong, that's me, not God, my bad, not the scriptures.

Firstly, God instituted marriage before there was a Church. It was instituted for mankind for our benefit, for society' good. It's essentially a civil affair, between the couple and their families. It is prescriptive and essentially meant for all - although there will be some exceptions. My position is we have been given leave to marry as men, only with certain requirements in mind as Christians.

When the Bible talks about marriage, it refers to marriage for the right reasons, with the right understanding and with the right motivation. When such a union takes place potential abuse becomes more or less an inconsequential consideration.

The Biblical writ is not based on marriages vows taken primarily to obtain papers, with a focus on marrying into wealth or predicating on scheming - i.e entrapment via pregnancy - although such marriages where vows are taken are still valid.

So before I ask a few questions of Debrief and Cotton, let me respond to this post by Ihedinobi;

@Guitarlife, sir, while you may think that you're being balanced, I assure you that you're a hardliner. I read through the thread before commenting and indeed your perspective is wrong. I practically live in the religion section and fight the wars of religion more or less regularly.

The approach of "God hates divorce" presupposes that there is a marriage in the first instance. For God, marriage is more than words spoken and papers signed under special circumstances on a particular day. Marriage is an act of God, a grafting together of two human beings to become one in essence. When that is not the case, even though the ceremonies have been performed, THERE IS NO MARRIAGE. If there is none then a parting cannot truly be a divorce. If you want an argument on that, start a new thread and we'll slug it out there.

I also think GuitarLife was perhaps a little censorious - I'm sure I come across the same way sometimes - but not necessarily wrong per se. At least his contribution brought a little balance to proceedings.

But my query is really around your 2nd paragraph above. No need to start a new thread. Merely outline your worldview and explain how marriage as an "act of God" happens. You've implied that men and women are not essentially free to marry without this act. So where they do as you've stated, "there is no marriage". Please also tell us are they in essence fornicating? Are any children illegitimate? How does it happen? Or perhaps I should ask if/how we as men can initiate this act of God.

Like I said, just an outline if you please. I'd like to understand, not debate (and potentially derail).

Thanks
TV

...is each thread on this section individually vacuum-sealed?

Let me start with Deepwater (I think it is), Baby123 and Freecocoa.

Three young and seemingly together women, of or around university age. On average, I don't belive it would be a disservice to consider them amongst the more exposed and priveleged in our particular context. And here they are, in abusive relationships (appreciate 2 are ostensibly over). In fact, Baby123, if I rightly recall was quite bullish about her high sense of self esteem. More worrying as there are no vows, no kids and no financial dependance here

What hard questions where asked on this thread about those 3 instances? Where did they go wrong. Forget "coming out alive/unharmed" how did they get into that kind of situation in the first place?

Let me be clear non of the girls or their alleged "abusers" are mature or well-adjusted enough to be in adult relationships. Not advice. Just comment.

Freecocoa. Not sure if anyone has explicitly said end it, but I am. I'm also saying grow up first before you embark on a fully fledged relationship. Particuarly where you effectively have freedom to do as you choose. Was sexual intimacy a factor in any of these relationships? Regardless.

There was a "superstory" type thread raised a while back about a controlling mother and her 20 year old college daughter. Regardless of it's being true/not true, it made for a lively discussion. I raised some questions, to which no one proffered answers. Funny isn't it? The same people there advocating unfettered liberty - freedom - for 20 year old university kids because they are "adults with rights" are the same one's here unable to properly support or task those same "adults" as they get abused for free.

I'll conclude on this point later.

Best
TV

...JK started this thread with a clearly stated aim. Can't say for sure that I got it, but let me not second guess and accept that at face value. As ever on NL threads tend to morph and expand - not necessarily a bad thing - going places not originally intended. Do we insist on a narow focus (can we?) or do we let the convo flow as it will and hope that it will be edifying either way?

Not sure I appreciated what apeared to be an atrtempt at exclusion/censorship either. If people are "trolling", unless it's crude and expletive, please let them say. Show maturity by ignoring the base and vulgar. They'll soon seek greener pastures. There'a danger that troll my be re-interpreted to read "dissenting voice". Let as many wishing to join issues do so and in their own way. No one os forced to post or to respond to posts.

So what's the point? What will be achieved here? Whilst it may not be a "pity party" as db08 likes to say, I am not sure that it has developed beyond mere "jist". Where are the insights? the exposition of truths, the well articulated worldviews, the game-changing POV's?

By halfway, the only concrete proposition was for women to "have an independant source of income". I thank ftmom and the other lady on mat leave (apologies for forgetting your name) for fully debunking that fallacy.

Any discussion on abuse in marriage and it's remedies, especially with divorce as an option will expand to touch on the foundation of the marital union. Take it or leave it. Divorce - excuse the pun - cannot be divorced from marriage. Marriage gains nothing from divorce, but divorce draws it's strength from weak marriages.

Funnily enough this can be wrapped up with by piecing together comment that has already been made and it's concerning to see that that hasn't been spotted. I'm going to make my submissions here based on what has already been posted. Please set me straight if I misquote or misascribe anything to you. I say "you" as I'll be speaking to posters either individually or collectively. I'll be challenging and alleging. Please fell free to rebut.

Thanks
TV

Greetings all.

I should have probably touched on the following point first.

When my thoughts first turned to marriage, my first question – probably driven a lot by some of the prevailing Christian - or should I say denominational? - thinking of the time was “Is it Gods will for me to marry?” This could probably be twinned with another question which goes something like this “Does God have a purpose for me that may preclude marriage?”

I agonised over this for a long time. I really wanted to hear/know if God had marriage in mind for me. This was despite my strong desire to be married. It was a long drawn-out period and one I suspect others have or are experiencing. As ever, I thank God I came out of it with deeper understanding, more mature and more solidly grounded. Actually I never actually heard, I understood.

My categorical position is the answer to that question is a resounding “Yes”! I clearly believe that the scriptures show that God made marriage for all, God expects it to be the norm ad it is the default for practically all men and women. So much so, that I believe Gods grace in marriage is beyond mere religion (not to suggest marrying outside one’s faith/worldview, as that will possibly present practical as well as spiritual issues).

Will there be exceptions? Certainly. If it’s God led, in such instances I would expect The Lord to be clear about this in how He ministers to you. Even God mandated preclusion may not be permanent, but rather for a season, until such purpose is served. And it will almost certainly be very clear and apparent why marriage is not expedient at that time. If you have the desire (and understanding) for it, expect, anticipate, prepare and embrace it. I don’t believe you need to ask for it.

The notion that God has some “super ministry” or “other worldly” purpose for us, is easily exaggerated in the minds of many and can lead to doubts and angst regards purpose. It is not helped by the “my ministry” concept prevalent in some institutionalised churches. Believe it or not, for most people and for the most part, Gods purpose - “your ministry” - will be quite mundane and centre primarily around family and immediate community.

Will there be those who because of their lifestyles, philosophies or situations are unable or unwilling too? Sure, but I see those as essentially contrary to Gods purpose. Indeed. I feel that marriage is one of the ways by which God can effect His purpose in us.

God bless
TV


And yes, one unmarried can give advice on marriage. There may be some particulars they would be best not to touch upon, or specifics that are off-limits, but having been on both sides of the divide, I see nothing wrong here.

Abbott: Love your perspective, very balanced,clearand apt. What you should expect from a son of God.

Very kind of you to say so. I'm encouraged to post some more.

So just how does a Christian single go about preparing for marriage?

There is no template as such, although there are some fundamentals that will stand one in good stead. I could take this way back , all the way to the cradle, but let me fast-forward and attempt to keep it bite-sized. I’m happy to add detail and clarify further if required.

Seek God prayerfully. Ask Him to mould you into a person who has all the required attributes to be a godly spouse (for those blessed to be Christians whilst still young, it’s never too early to start – and vicariously by parents).

Acquire an understanding of the marriage union. Gods purpose and desire for marriage. Its benefits to the community, the families, the couple and any offspring. Study it in scripture and study it “live”, don’t be put off by bad examples or naysayers. Have a vision of the home you want. Pointers abound in scripture.

One thing that will stand you in good stead is to renew your mind so that the qualities of a good spouse are what you find attractive - over and beyond physical attraction. In essence, physical attraction becomes no more than a “starter for 10”, with any attraction withering – and fast – if the character attributes are not there. I wouldn’t want to understate physical attraction, but one can actually get to a state where the attributes trigger the physical attraction.

For men in particular, it’s essential you develop into that man who can “command his household”. Being a husband is inherent in being a man.

If you are not ready or in a position to marry, I would counsel that you have a wide circle of friends and acquaintances, but no special/unique relationship.

If you are, I would persist with the wide circle of F&A, getting to know people and be at ease interacting socially. Although I personally eschewed the “net”, I am not being dogmatic, I just preferred the traditional routes of meeting people - socially and via introductions. I grew bold enough to approach people publicly.

I don’t want to be drawn into semantics about use of the word dating, but I would certainly suggest getting to "know" and "know about" someone prior to a “proper date”. Even then, it does not mean exclusivity. It never does, unless it gets to the courtship stage.

And there is a call for forthrightness – boldness even – from the ladies. If a man wants to spend time with you, he needs to be able to articulate why. And not the bogus “I like your company” or “you are good fun” reasons. Not on first meeting, but definitely if he is angling to see more of you after a few meetings or getting to know you sessions.

And of course keep it chaste at all times. Don’t be fooled by or create an ambiance that could cause you to stray.

God bless
TV

toba: explain the emphasized.

The requirement for and the dispensation of grace does not end when you've met the one. You need it still once wed. It should be asked for and is freely given.

For example; I know a lot of men stray when their wives are expecting. Was it inevitable? No. Grace ad faith made that a lie, a non issue for us. I loved my wife more and we bonded the more. It heightened our journey.

For example; Nobody knows how pregnancy will change a woman physically. It can physically wreck women. My wife had - in my opinion - a near perfect figure when I met and married her. Did pregnancy take a toll? Yes, but I truly cherish her the more.

All my fears - based on observation - were groundless. But we still pray to love each other more, to cherish each other further, to remain faithful and for more grace. We don't take it for granted

toba: also what triggered u into believing u've made the right choice? did u pray personally or u did consultations or relied on ur God

instinct?

I was and I am sure I made the right choice. It was a mixture of understanding and being led. By the end, I was bold to approach, confident to ask and knew what to look for. I also utterly trusted , that like all the ones before, that if she were the wrong one God would end it, as long as I stayed humble, stayed true and sought His Face.

On the one extreme, one can have total faith in God to lead you to your spouse - or bring your spouse to you. On the other, one can have the maturity and understanding to choose wisely and commit it to God. Or a mixture. We are all different. I heard umpteen testimonies about how people met and married. But God gave me my own template. Trust Him, he'll give you yours. I fleeced when I was "younger" in the Lord and God answered, but by the end, I wouldn't dream of doing that.

God bless
TV


On Divorce: I believe divorce is only permissible - not necessarily prescribed - where there is adultery. Re-marriage is only permitted in the event of death (there is some discussion to be had there to provide depth and clarity, but that is essentially it in my view).

On Spousal Abuse: Why is it worse than adultery? If it's incipient within marriage, there can be forgiveness, restoration and healing. It starts somewhere. Which part of "love and respect" is confusing? If before marriage,you should not have proceeded. Poor foundation. Marriage is for the mature, Xtian or not. Many things may be considered grounds for separation, but the truth is, only one is cited for divorce and one for remarriage. The exhortation is to marry properly, marry a God fearing person.

On The Past: Share everything about the past prior to marriage. If the trust is not there to share, you are probably not ready, if they are not willing to share, they are probably not right.

Great thread guys. And I suspect a real source of encouragement ad consolation to many. Well done Toba for kicking this off and to as many as have made heartfelt contributions. This thread brought me back to the religion board.

May The Lord bless and keep all who wish to present themselves pure and undefiled before Him in truth.

I have walked the road of the “Celibate Christian Single” and would hope – and be delighted - to share some of my experiences on the journey in the hope that others may be blessed.

Many contributions beg questions and I have seen many points raised in passing. I will endeavour to share my beliefs and experience on as many as I can as time permits.

A bit about my journey;
I rode my faith – hard – all the way to a blissful marital union. Along the way The Lord broke down many of my prejudices, erroneous notions and misconceptions. I believe Gods aim is always to purify and refine our characters and prepare us for what’s ahead (ultimately, it’s the measure, the stature, the fullness..). With the benefit of hindsight I can see why it took the time it did, but sometimes it felt like an interminable amount of time had passed with still no end in sight. I thank God for His grace.

When I first became a Christian, thoughts of marriage were very far from me for a long time. When eventually my thoughts did turn this way, I had a very clear sense of abstinence as a requirement, a grace and a gift. And I desired to do it His way with all my heart. I believed God. I believed it was what He required and I believed He would enable me. And He did. God is no respecter of persons, He doesn’t play favourites. He doesn’t have to. I truly believe the grace afforded me is there for all who believe and trust Him for it.

I also set out my stall. It had to be the right one or no one. If that meant a life of celibacy, then so be it. The possibility of my “not getting married” was a very real option. I truly believe you have to give it your all with God – not to say that all “alls” are the same – and He will surely deliver. Maybe not when or how you expect, but when God delivers, it is truly wonderful.

Forget enemies, leave out haters. As time went by, it was my church fellows, my family and my closest friends that questioned my resolve and counselled alternatives and shortcuts. How many times did I hear the words “don’t take this Christian thing to far” or words to that effect? By Gods grace I stood firm. There were many “Ishmaels” and near misses, but truly he delivered me. Oft times I didn’t actually have a clue what transpired, only looked back and saw tragedy had been averted. I met so many "potential mates", but I absolutely believe I am with the right one. I don't look back at any of the women I met and think "hmmm...maybe".

Were there mishaps, mistakes? Did I slip, did I stumble? Sure I did, but only when I looked away from Him, only when I sought recourse in the arm of the flesh. Where my defences breached? Very rarely, and only due to my initial immaturity or being overly trusting (the flesh again).

Even as He refined and equipped me, whilst keeping me safe, I became bolder and more confident full of faith and was able to “go finding” for myself. Who really wants a wife he didn’t win? But I was always aware - and sometimes had to be reminded – that my surety was in Him. Not by might nor by power. No boasting in my knowledge or my understanding.

I the end, I was stronger and more grounded in faith, I believed deeper, I was more in awe and I was a much more mature Christian. As well as happily married. And you know what? There’s a whole different measure of grace once wed.

Particulars on some of the points I’ve noted to follow. Or I’m happy to field questions, if there are any.

Let me leave you with this – try not to get too caught up in this desire. Keep doing other things, furthering yourself . Try not to become obsessed or depressed. Do not make a idol of it. Be prayerful, patient and have faith

Ride your faith brethren!

God bless
TV

Kobojunkie: At poster, men should never lay their hands on women.

A number of posters on this board have posted words to this effect.

Is this an "immutable law" of some kind?
It seems somewhat odd that it's not at the very least "gender-neutral". How one-sided, not to mention non-PC is that?

Are women allowed to lay their hands on men? Wouldn't a refrain on violence of any sort, from either sex be more beneficial?
Is their an equivalent female "no-no"? For example; "women should never provoke men"? or say "never not be submissive to men?

The pressure may lead men to open threads vowing to "never beat ones wife"

Oh dang...

A simplistic scenario, to which the simplistic response is "yes (it is)".

Introducing any number of other variables will mean reconsidering this "objective" analysis, even if it doesn't change the conclusion.

Hope all's well.

Best
TV

maclatunji: Me, I no support this going to tell your siblings thingy O. Ok, your mom if you must but since you didn't tell your siblings at the beginning, why upset them when you're supposed to be at an advanced stage of healing in the future?

Your mom would have seen enough of life to laugh about it. Those old people are full of secrets, it will amaze you what they know but hide from you.

Only old people?
(don't be surprised if they have'nt already sussed sef. Their paradigms and experience may have led to "seeming disinterest", but perhaps they are being kind in not letting you expose your unclothedness?). No matter how good it "may seem" to tell, it's always better to resolve things between you.

If you get over this, are able to heal forgive and move on, you'll be surprised that "others" may not, and simply present yet another potential breach to your relationship

The "brutal brothers" sef, are their lives open books? (A proclivity to "brutality" speaks volumes).

I wish you all the best at in this trying time. Please don't let pride cloud your judgement. And be careful, there's been quite a bit of faulty reasoning and short-sighted advice on this thread. I'm late to the table so won't touch on everything. Be wise.


Regards
TV