₦airaland Forum

adeniyitheprof:
SHOW ME IN THE BIBLE WHERE a fish is a symbol of Christ

Sarcastically, I think your praying, worshiping and bowing down before the image of Mary shows that you have the perfect understanding of the scriptures....Hahahahaha........ NO DIFFERENCE BETWEEN CATHOLICISM AND IDOL WORSHIPING RELIGIONS

adeniyitheprof:
Wonders shall never end ooo. So Catholics are also creating the upside down cross of brother Peter. Do you, people also bow before the cross of brother Peter? That is why I like this song "JESUS ONLY IS OUR MESSAGE"

b]If you should say that there is “You shall not make any graven images" in catechism of the catholic church, why do Catholics still make images of Mary? and Why do Catholics still bow before the images of Mary and whereas it is clearly written that "Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them..." —Exodus 20:5?[/b]

[img]http://www.inplainsite.org/assets/images/Pope-Mary-3.jpg[/img

SalC:
Uben you've started again

Kizmarty:
I'm still finding it hard to put the strings together.

I know of this teaching but its way apart from the new heaven and new earth theory.

Syncan:
hmm...bro, I believe its just the chronology of events. Each of those mysteries are as sorrowful as sorrow can be. Eg, We've heard of people dying of sorrow, yet their sorrow wasn't strong enough to cause their tears to turn to blood. There is a book called "Mystical city of God" by Mary of Agreda, you need to read this book to get an insight into the scorging and the rest, when you think of the scorging for instance; think of those aluu students that were beating till they died.Each was done to the point of death, Jesus did not die in either of them because he was meant to die on the cross. A quick insight you can get from a small and easily available book called "Pieta".

Bobbysworld28:
If the Bible did not record Jesus using images, is it not sufficient dt u dont use it?

Jesus who was always in God's presence did not use image nor did he ask us to.

Oh and u prefer to pray to brother Timothy than talk with the Holy Spirit who's communion is with u forever? Talk abt stickler for idolatry!

Bobbysworld28:
I have wondered so and these points pop up:
If Christ brought direct access to God, wht could then be d purpose of these images? None in my view.

At least it should be on record that either Christ or his apostles would have used it for once. They did not! Dt kind of suggests that it was brought in much later.

It will amount to belittling the ministry of the Holy Spirit and his influence in our lives if we esteem man-made objects to replace him.

Pls read John 14-16. Those three chapters detail out his ministry.

Imagine this scenario: u lose an object u hold dear. Then u resort to praying TO saint Anthony to look for it when u obviously have a guide and comforter in the Holy Spirit who is with u forever. Does dt not amount to idolatry in dt man takes the place of God to u?

Bobbysworld28:
rev5.8.kjv And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

Question: r saints only in Heaven?

eph1.1.kjv Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:

php1.1.kjv Paul and Timotheus, the servants of Jesus Christ, to all the saints in Christ Jesus which are at Philippi, with the bishops and deacons:

col1.1-2.kjv Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timotheus our brother, To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ which are at Colosse: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.


From the 3 scriptures above, can u see d REAL meaning of saints? Obviously these people called saints are brethren in the cities dt Paul was writing to. WE ARE THE SAINTS OF GOD!

Trailblazer1:
Like I said earlier, argument only makes a man of different view hardened and defensive of his views.
If Jesus and all the holy apostles who are an example unto us didn't call on any dead believer to pray or interceed for them why should the catholic church invent this unbiblical practice?

Do we follow the apostolic practices or the invented Catholic tradition?

If you think Mary's motherhood will persuade God to Change his mind towards you maybe you should try EVE the mother of all mankind

Even the bible says "ye are gods".

At the death of Christ, the veil of the temple which covers the Holies of holies, preventing all and sundry from Gods symbolic presence in the ark of covenant was rented(torn), giving all and sundry an unlimited access into Gods presence.
The only condition was stated by Jesus when he said "I am the way, the truth and the life, no one cometh unto the father but by me" NB: Mary was never in the context. Why should I trade this open cheque given to me through the death of Christ by engaging Mary? If I needed Mary to intercede for me as practised by the old Testament priests, then I don't need Christ and his death would be in vain.

I urge you my dear brethren with:
Galatians 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

Papist:
So was the high priest commiting sacrilege in the Holy of Holies?

Bobbysworld28:
Furthermore, there is nothing absolutely wrong with intercessory prayer at all. When however u cede ur priestly function of communicating directly with God and depend absolutely of intercession, there is a problem.

Furthermore, while Paul asked the brethren to pray for him, throughout the whole Bible we cannot find a place where departed brethren have or can interceed for anyone. Therefore using this as an excuse is quite incredible if not utterly ridiculous.

Bobbysworld28:
Bros, only d high priest goes into the holy of holies once in a year. Stop carrying on as though everyone had access to it.

Jesus did not use images and u hv been unable to disprove this fact with one verse.

I showed u severally hw he prayed and where he prayed. There was no rosary neither was there a scapula.

antiquity:
@Ubenedictus, my friend is from a royal family and Elaho was passed to him by inheritance.

Bobbysworld28:
You hv thrown the bait, I will bite. Suppose I say let us pray:
Hail Mary, full of grace...
Now who is d object of ur 'prayer'?
Mary of course
Contrast that with Jesus' instruction:
mat6.9.kjv After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.

Luke 6:12

One of those days Jesus went out to a mountainside to pray, and spent the night praying to God.


Luke 22:41-44

He withdrew about a stone's throw beyond them, knelt down and prayed, "Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done." An angel from heaven appeared to him and strengthened him. And being in anguish, he prayed more earnestly, and his sweat was like drops of blood falling to the ground.

John 11:41-42

So they took away the stone. Then Jesus looked up and said, "Father, I thank you that you have heard me. I knew that you always hear me, but I said this for the benefit of the people standing here, that they may believe that you sent me."

John 17:1-26

After Jesus said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed: "Father, the time has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you.

Hebrews 5:7

During the days of Jesus' life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with loud cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission.


Now see Paul's example:
eph1.16-17.kjv Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers; That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:

php1.9.kjv And this I pray, that your love may abound yet more and more in knowledge and in all judgment;

col1.3.kjv We give thanks to God and the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you,

See Peter:
1pe1.3.kjv Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us

John:
2jn1.3.kjv Grace be with you, mercy, and peace, from God the Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the

U will agree with me dt the pattern is simple. Prayer is to God ALONE.

BTW, I hope u understand dt hail mary is a greeting. It has no place in prayer. I will deal with dt line of thought later.
Also, if u insist on praying TO dead brethren, spare a thought that after Stephen died no one prayed to him.

U dont even need to bother asking Jesus, d way is open straight to the Father:
jhn16.23.kjv And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you.

I know it is difficult for ur indoctrinated mind to accept free access to the Father but I urge u to:

gal5.1.kjv Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

Trailblazer1:
Sorry dear, I didn't mean to insult you but rather appeal to your conscience. My cause will not be noble if I resort to insults.

I don't like to argue cos it can never help you to win a soul, it rather makes a sinner to become defensive and hardened. I only subscribe to correcting an error with a fact through the Word of God, hence my approval of Bobbysworld28

permit me to quote you

Your logic in your first paragraph is skewed because you didn't quote where Jesus or Paul used an image. Sorry to say.

Going by your 2nd paragraph, I suffice to say that you still belong to the old Testament(covenant). Let me help you by quoting from the scriptures

Hebrew 7:22 By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament. 23 And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death: 24 But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood. 25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.
Has Mary and other saints taken over the duty of Jesus?

Bobbysworld28:
Unless u can actually show documented evidence dt Jesus knelt in front of a statue to pray to God, I am afraid u r only presenting conjectures. So he was a Jew and went to d temple? Does dt mean he knelt before a statue? Statue of who? Did he also pray to Mary? Or Abraham? Or Moses?
Get out of d mentality that u can be an idolater and it is ok with God, neither can u talk to Mary to plead with God on ur behalf as though u hv limited access to God

tpacalipse:
So? Your point is?

Papist:
Does God change? Or is He unchangeable? Does He regard one act as holy today and then regard it as evil tomorrow?

Trailblazer1:
After reading through every post on this thread, I now deem it fit to comment on this juncture.

@bobbysworld28 I covet your wisdom.
The wisdom of God in you through the knowledge and understanding of his word has shut the mouth of the naysayers.
Jesus said in
Luke 21:15 For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist.

You've asked so many unanswered questions which Ubenedictus and others could not oppose but intelligently dodged it.

If at all they have a conscience, they should be in a sober reflection on all the revelations on this thread.

You've proven them wrong both in logic and through the word that we don't need any proxy to God.

My prayer is for the Knowledge of God to full this world as waters cover the sea
Shalom.

Bobbysworld28:
Uben, my dear friend!
So kneeling down before a statue is for recollection? Honestly, the utter absurdity of that statement makes me cringe!

Bowing down to, before an image, elevating pastors/god of men unduly, etc is Idolatry.

When u r to pray, kindly pray to d all-seeing Father in secret as Our Master Jesus has commanded
mat6.5-8.kjv And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly. But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.

Kindly refrain from referring to me as Protestant. What am I protesting? D divinity of Christ? I am christian, dts all

Bobbysworld28:
Paul requested prayers of other brethren. Show me a scripture where he asked stephen or other dead christians to pray for him.

Btw, u say dt u pray before an image and not to d image, what does dt even mean? Like I am chatting before u and not with u now? Like d children of Israel were dancing before d golden calf but not to it? Like shadrach, meshach and abednego did not bow to or before? Very amusing, this point of view. Unfortunately it is pointless. U bow before an image to pray like Yoruba's bow before their elders and u say it is not bowing to?
Please critically review this stance and weed out d inherent absurdities.