₦airaland Forum

Simple question.

shdemidemi:
Are you of the flesh or of the spirit?

i am of the spirit.

Now the interesting question.

Is it posible for one in the spirit to do the work of the flesh?

In other words, can the justified sin?

Hehehehe,

you came with the idea of those "called", i reference the scripture that say many are called few are chosen and you came back throwing pauline scriptures around.
Let us take a look!

shdemidemi:
Romans 8

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified..


See how God did the work from foreknowledge to glorification of the Saint according to this passage. No part of this process was played by man's ability but God's.

you are argueing against your own strawman.
I never said that man has the ability to justify or sanctity or glorify himself. I NEVER SAID THAT.

But since you brought up scriptures about those who God foreknew and called, i'll show you the people who God first foreknew.



Roman 11

I ask, then, has God rejected his
people? By no means! For I myself
am an Israelite, a descendant of
Abraham, 1 a member of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew. Do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah,
how he appeals to God against Israel?
3 l “Lord, they have killed your prophets, they have demolished your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life.”
4 But what is God's reply to him? “I have kept for myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” 5 So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace.



This is what happened to the first people who God foreknew, NOT ALL OF THEM WERE SAVED, ONLY A REMNANT WAS SAVED.

So i'm also telling you, not all who he foreknew will be saved, not all who are called are chosen.

How was your day?

plappville:
You are still deceiving people with this your Oyibo festival that has no trace/root in the book of God. You cannot back your festival with scripture. Scripture never in any potion of the bible tagged Christ with a birthday. Not any of the prophets in the bible. You people will please God when you will only put in practice what He instructed you. Instead of Man traditions.

oh, you are still clinging to a rebuted objection.

JMAN05:
That date is in history.

That Mithra celebrates Dec 25th as the birth of there god is a word of accuracy. You have to show me a document from the 2nd century that said it is not.

simple logic,
the burden of proof lies with the person making the claim,

the burden of proof lies with you! Show historic proof that says mithra celebrated is birthday on the 25 of dec

JMAN05:
What I said was found a Catholic encyclopedia, a good reference work that the RCC has never disassociated itself from either publicly or through writing or even sued to Court. Encyclopedias of a religion are not just written any how.

The internet New Catholic encyclopedia I quoted previously never mentioned Usener, but holds that the pagan festivities has a strong claim for the present Xmas you guys celebrate.

hehehe,

if the date is so correct all you need to do is show me an historic source that says so!

Ubenedictus:
i'll even push it futher!

Scriptures also associates justification with baptism, when peter was asked what do we do to be saved, scriptures record.

Act 2:38 "repent and be baptised all of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sin and ye shall receive the gift of the holy spirit"
in 1 cor 6: 11 st paul says "you are washed, you are sanctified, you are justified in the name of Jesus christ and the spirit of our God.

Act 22:16, paul have a even deeper teaching in Rm 6:3-11, he shows that baptism associates us with Christ death, we die in him and we are raised to new life. That i believe is the way justification is effected.

*smiles*

and lastly

we can lose justification, most of the passage have already been quoted,


Galatians 5:19-20: "Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are (these): fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousies, wraths, factions, divisions, parties, envyings,
drunkenness, revelings, and such like; of which I forewarn you, even as I did forewarn you, that they who practice such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.


I forewarn those on the thread as paul did, those who willingly commit sins as those listed above should know they won't inherit eternal life. They will by their own disobedience reject God's gift.

shdemidemi:
I am still yet to see where you proved God's call isn't enough to make us qualified for eternal salvation?

that reminds me, doesn't scripture say many are called few are chosen? The call doesn't grant automatic salvation to anyone, there is a response to the call, then there is faith, after that comes baptism and justification, sanctification and then glorification.

If the call qualified everyone to eternal salvation, all who are called will be saved.

shdemidemi:
I'm waiting.

i have written it already, it follows my first post on justification.

shdemidemi:
John Calvin himself might not agree with him that I am Calvinist because my decision to rightly divide God's word or OSAS was not influenced by him. I don't agree with some other ideologies that is associated with the man. That we agree on one aspect of theology does not make us the same.

you don't need to agree with all his ideologies, the OSAS theology alone qualifies you to be a calvinist.

Rich4god:
As an individual, he didnt... But as a priest standing on the pulpit as at the time of his statement, its kinda awkward talking down on a leader in a childish manner.

my problem is not in d "childish" manner he spoke, there is canon law against priest in politics, on two occasion he tries to preach politics from the pulpit, first he say to vote for jonathan (d man wey e say God dey e back), then he says there is need for change. A priest should never attempt to politicisied his sermons like that, giving prophesy to politicians on election outcome and calling another party "bokoharam party".

All those deserve to get him sanctioned, but i believe he and the enugu bishop are pals, besides he gets support from many in the enugu prebyterium. He pulls enough influence to give a bishop nighmares. I don't think he will recieve any sanction.

vest:
watsup pple hope u ar hving a holy sunday.

some days back we were singing a marian hymn "o come to the throne of grace,o come to the heart most pure, to mary our hope of life, in whom salvation is sure-------o lady of fatima hail-----

@ the bolded i jst want to undastd what that part means
tag:striktymi,italo,ubendictus,salC,rich4god nd all

dat one simple.

Mary nah one way road, anybody wey go follow am go reach Jesus.

She can only and always lead us to Christ that is why "salvation is sure".

Rich4god:
he who runs in the face of danger.... *wia my zing to complete my statemnt*

a man who cannot speak without his zing! What is he?

shdemidemi:
You are the one doing the grouping, I have never said I am a Calvinist. I might not agree to all of his views you never know.

Can't wait to hear your views as well, I understand the part where you say it can be overwhelming arriving late to a thread as this one.

you don't need to agree with all his views, taking up his stuff on salvation suffices to make u a calvinist

shdemidemi:
^^^ isn't this what we have been saying all along? I thought I would read some man made addendum to complete God's free gift of salvation from you.

not exactly i'm sure the next post which it seems you haven't seen will show you the first point where we differ.

Ubenedictus:
I'll limit myself to a few passages since much has already been quoted.

Romans 5:15-17
But the gift is not like the trespass.
For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! Nor can the
gift of God be compared with the
result of one man’s sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification. For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!


Romans 3:21–27

21 But now, apart from the law, God’s righteousness has been revealed — attested by the Law and the Prophets 22—that is, God’s righteousness through faith in Jesus Christ, to all who believe, since there is no distinction. 23 For all have sinned and fall short of
the glory of God. 24 They are justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus. 25 God presented Him as a propitiation through faith in His blood, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His restraint God passed over the sins previously committed. 26 God presented
Him to demonstrate His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be righteous and declare righteous the one who has faith in Jesus.

Ok
The word justification is used three times in the Romans. The word group is defined in the following manner: dike (root word of the group, meaning right or just), dikaios (meaning righteously or justly), dikaiosune (meaning righteousness or justice), dikaiosis (meaning “the
act of pronouncing righteous” or acquittal), dikaioma (meaning an
ordinance, a sentence of acquittal or condemnation, a righteous deed), dikaio (meaning “to show to be righteous” or “to declare
righteous”), and dikastase (meaning “to judge” or “a judge”). It appears that the word group, when taken as a whole, can convey both a sense of righteousness and justice.

Now justification in the passages above implies that we are decleared righteous, or rather, since God will not declear righteous that which isn't, justification is that God made us righteous!

The 1st point there is that it is given as grace! It is the free, undeserving help and favour that God gives us.
2nd it is recieved by faith!
3rd, this help has been merited for us by Jesus Christ.

When God "made us righteous" or rather "decleared us righteous" somethings happened. Scriptures says.
"We are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption which is in christ Jesus who God put forward as and expiation (atoning sacrifice for sin) by his blood"
the sacrifice that justifys us is a expiatory sacrifice, justification thus involves the remission(eph 1:7) of sin.
2nd, the imparting of God own righteousness to us, this is why it is called a rebirth!, there is a new creation (2 cor 5 :17, gal 6:15), a translation to life from death, from darkness to light. (col 1 :13).

In the christian sense justification is God's work on us that frees us from sins and impart the righteousness of God to us recieved through faith in Christ Jesus.

In another sense it is the transfering from the the state in which we were born as children of adam to a state of "fellowship", of grace, of adoption as the children of God.
Christ is now our righteousness, we now partake in his nature(1 cor 1 :30, 2pt 1: 4), friends with God and temple of his spirit.

i'll even push it futher!

Scriptures also associates justification with baptism, when peter was asked what do we do to be saved, scriptures record.

Act 2:38 "repent and be baptised all of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sin and ye shall receive the gift of the holy spirit"
in 1 cor 6: 11 st paul says "you are washed, you are sanctified, you are justified in the name of Jesus christ and the spirit of our God.

Act 22:16, paul have a even deeper teaching in Rm 6:3-11, he shows that baptism associates us with Christ death, we die in him and we are raised to new life. That i believe is the way justification is effected.

*smiles*

I'll limit myself to a few passages since much has already been quoted.

Romans 5:15-17
But the gift is not like the trespass.
For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! Nor can the
gift of God be compared with the
result of one man’s sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification. For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!


Romans 3:21–27

21 But now, apart from the law, God’s righteousness has been revealed — attested by the Law and the Prophets 22—that is, God’s righteousness through faith in Jesus Christ, to all who believe, since there is no distinction. 23 For all have sinned and fall short of
the glory of God. 24 They are justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus. 25 God presented Him as a propitiation through faith in His blood, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His restraint God passed over the sins previously committed. 26 God presented
Him to demonstrate His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be righteous and declare righteous the one who has faith in Jesus.

Ok
The word justification is used three times in the Romans. The word group is defined in the following manner: dike (root word of the group, meaning right or just), dikaios (meaning righteously or justly), dikaiosune (meaning righteousness or justice), dikaiosis (meaning “the
act of pronouncing righteous” or acquittal), dikaioma (meaning an
ordinance, a sentence of acquittal or condemnation, a righteous deed), dikaio (meaning “to show to be righteous” or “to declare
righteous”), and dikastase (meaning “to judge” or “a judge”). It appears that the word group, when taken as a whole, can convey both a sense of righteousness and justice.

Now justification in the passages above implies that we are decleared righteous, or rather, since God will not declear righteous that which isn't, justification is that God made us righteous!

The 1st point there is that it is given as grace! It is the free, undeserving help and favour that God gives us.
2nd it is recieved by faith!
3rd, this help has been merited for us by Jesus Christ.

When God "made us righteous" or rather "decleared us righteous" somethings happened. Scriptures says.
"We are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption which is in christ Jesus who God put forward as and expiation (atoning sacrifice for sin) by his blood"
the sacrifice that justifys us is a expiatory sacrifice, justification thus involves the remission(eph 1:7) of sin.
2nd, the imparting of God own righteousness to us, this is why it is called a rebirth!, there is a new creation (2 cor 5 :17, gal 6:15), a translation to life from death, from darkness to light. (col 1 :13).

In the christian sense justification is God's work on us that frees us from sins and impart the righteousness of God to us recieved through faith in Christ Jesus.

In another sense it is the transfering from the the state in which we were born as children of adam to a state of "fellowship", of grace, of adoption as the children of God.
Christ is now our righteousness, we now partake in his nature(1 cor 1 :30, 2pt 1: 4), friends with God and temple of his spirit.

babestell:
Ok what did I miss

SalC and Syncan just born pikin?

make i run go hide....

I no get power for this story.

@jman05,

you may be wondering why i asked for historic source on your mithra claim....

I have been doing some reading and i found out that the earliest reference to Mithras being born on December 25, is in the anti-Catholic work of Paul Jablonski, an
18th century Protestant attempting to argue that the Catholic Church had become paganized, and that the date of Christmas was simply a heretical adoption of a pagan festivity, specifically the celebration of the
birth of Mithras. I am always skeptical of agenda driven claims, especially when they are accompanied by a complete lack of substantive evidence, as they were in Jablonski's case.
Ironically, later in the 18th century the same claim was made by the Catholic cleric Jean Hardouin, who asserted that the Catholic Church had rightly 'Christianized' the celebration of Mithras' birth. Like
Jablonski, his argument was without substantive evidence. This blunder was widely popularized in the 19th century literature by Hermann Usener, and has remained influential ever since.
However, Usener's lines of evidence were extremely tenuous, and modern scholarship specifically in the field of Roman
religion and Mithraic studies, has debunked his theory comprehensively.

That is why i still hold that unless you can link the so called mithra bithday to historic sources, you are simply walking on water.

@dolphinheart,

i never said christians kept their records in the temple! You are making a strawman.

Those responsible for adding a 13th month periodically to the calender were the sahendrine, those fell from popularity when the temple fell, that is why the rabbi hellie had to twitch the calendar a little and automated it.

2ndly all christian dates where truly moved to the julian calendar, that is why the ancient churches still celebrate the annuciation of a fixed dates and the memorial of matyrs, the only date that was later spaired was easter. Christian didn't always celebrate easter together, the african church have fixed it around 25 march, the eastern church had their own date and the roman church had theirs. It was in the council of nicea that it was decided that the julian date shouldn't be used instead it should be conformed with the jewish passover.


As for your discuss on the calender, i do not have the time to argue with you that the present gregorian calender isn't 2000yrs old and thus hasn't shifted by up to a single day. I also do not have the time to tell you that the gregorian measured time more accurately than the ever shifting hebrew calendar. I'll prefer you learn that urself.
Thanks.

JMAN05:
The World Book Encyclopedia states: “This celebration [Christmas] was probably influenced by pagan (unchristian) festivals held at that time. The ancient Romans held year-end celebrations to honor Saturn, their harvest god; and Mithras [the sun god].”

It thus appears Saturnalia ended on 23/24th while Mithra did their's on 25th.

This however, does not perforce mean that Mithra worshipers never celebrated this birth day on their own. I ve not seen any reason against that.

so u have gone back to ur 24th date even though wiki was very clear that is only reach 24th during the latter republic?

Beside the encyclopedia isn't a historic source. You need to provide a historic source that say mithra celebrated on the 25th, that mean d quote should come from a work dated around the 2nd, 3rd and 4th cent, the time of mithra.

JMAN05:
Better.



Even at that, is it over 200 years?

yes dear.

Goshen360:
You still don't understand this gospel. ..in the finished works of Christ, do you?...... . If I give you scriptures, can you refute the Apostolic teachings of the finished works of Christ?

oh dear, i understand the gospel of the finished work of christ, your understanding of that work applied to us is what i do not accept.

vooks:
FortresOfChrist
I know your thread has been jacked.
here is my response to you
1. Believers can and they do sin though this is by going against the very same conscience Jesus raised in them when He saved/justified them

2. God hates sin

3. God is on record casting believers to hell. You have Matthew which we hammered before, John 15 with Jesus exhorting his disciples to REMAIN in Him lest they are cut off, Acts 8 of Simon Magus who believed,was baptized and recieved Holy Spirit yet he was rebuked by Peter. He turned out to be the worst persecutor of the church, Hebrews 6 and 3:15 warning us on the dangers of apostasy. You have innumerable warnings against falling away.

4. Nobody can undo what Christ has done in you except you alone. The devil could not rob Jesus of his position but attempted to tempt him to rebel against God. He failed but he succeeded with Adam and you see the consequences. Adam was only as secure as long as he remained in obedience.

5. The lie that a born again believer can never go to hell is actually a lie from hell. Faith is not a historical event but a lifestyle. You are saved by faith and you remain saved by faith. Think of all the warnings and caution against sin in the NT. What purpose do they serve?

Thank you and have a good week ahead

thank you!

dolphinheart:
Haba sir, accurately but not perfectly ? That statement needs explanation o!

yeah, the present calender has an accuracy of 0.000... Which means it is pretty accurate. That doesn't mean it is perfect.

If the date was derived from the hebrew calender, then what's the date on the hebrew calender that it was derived from . Pls, pls , pls tell us that date! .

this question is harder, by 70AD the jerusalem temple had been burnt down, the christian converted all their dates to the julian calender except easter, so it is pretty hard to match the two calenders.

After some research it seems 25 dec in the julian calender usually falls around 25 of the month of kislev and 10 of tebet in the hebrew calender.

In the year 3BC which i believe to be the year of Christ birth 25 of dec in the julian calendar is 8/9 tebet of the hebrew calender.

I believe it is 8/9th tebet of 3 bc.

It is the beauty on commenting late.

I am not a religion police, and yes every christian teaching flying around seems to have its own history. Yours started in the 16th century and the main culprit is Calvin, unfortunately you have gone over and beyond you have decided to be the authority on the canon and you are now deciding "levels of inspiration" of different books in the bible.

Luther must be proud.

shdemidemi:
Who made UBenedictus a religion police?

All you want to do is call people names and group them based on their beliefs. When will you actually give your own response to the OP so everyone learn the truth from you?

don't worry u'll see my own beliefs.

SalC:
The bold is the ish here, but will that cause a convert or a catholic for that matter to be denied any aspect of the sacramental life?

a total rejection of "devotion to mary" is sufficient reason to be denied the sacramental life.

It is not a must one says the rosary, but devotion to mary and the saints is an intrinsic part of catholicism.

dolphinheart:
@ubenedictus , still waiting for answers to my question o!

i'll get right on them.

ayoku777:
This is how people make conclusions without reading through the entire thread. Don't say bottomline without reading to the bottom line.

I don't do Calvinism or any of those tags. And if you have continued reading, you would have seen where I made the lower post.

I corrected someone who said God doesn't see our sins.

what u preach is calvinism, a mild one to be precise but it is still calvinism.

And yes, i made a mistake and i'm sorry, i assumed you were in line with the explanation of others.

Forgive me, atleast you do not believe in a God blind to sins.

Goshen360:
Say that to the Apostle Paul when you're ready to open scriptures....

hehehehe, so the apostle paul told you that God is blind to the sin of Christian?

Hehehe,

did you really have to use the apostles name to tell lies?

JMAN05:
My point has been that the activities performed in the Xmas were copied from the Saturnalia. The birth of Mithra on Dec 25th was also a copy from sun god worship, ie Mithra.

so you agree that saturnalia was never on the 25th?

All you have to do is show me the historic source that reports that mithra was celebrated on the 25th of dec in ancient rome.

JMAN05:
That was not you said earlier. You said my source said "heliolatry came back to Rome under Elagabalus, the older cult of Sol had died down". Where did my source say that?

i never said i was quoting your source verbatim, your source say elagabalus introduced the sun god to rome. I simply took that part.

Nawa to you o. Jesus died in 33 AD na. It's not up to 200 years na, not to talk of being "over". But I think I understand where you are going.

actually history is supposed to be counted after Jesus birth not after his death.

Alwaystrue:
Uhm! Various angles. Thanks for bringing it to more light but you have given me an even deeper understanding. Thanks. I only read the I Corinthians 3 in context and that is below:


I Corinthians 3:11-15
11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.


Seems in this I Cor 3 case it is a micro-case showing man (us) and our materials(our works) unlike in 2 Timothy 2:19-21 that shows the big picture of Christ and his materials (us his people)...I hope you get me.

This is because if you just take a step further I Cor. 3:17 says:
16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

Now look at Paul saying if any man DEFILE the temple of God (we are His temple) because the Spirit of God dwells in us, God will destroy that man. Now we can ask what defiles a man? Jesus said it here:

Matthew 15:18-19
18 But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.
19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:
20b These are the things which defile a man

That is how I was able to deduce that evil works are not the types of materials that build the house, they are actually what defiles it. The good works not done well, or done with one's heart in hypocrisy may be the works that get burned. There might actually be some works of Gold and precious stones that will get rewarded.

weldone.

Of all the exegesis i saw on the thread, this one is simply beautiful.