₦airaland Forum

debosky:
by simply borrowing he started the problem? that doesn't strike me as thorough examination of the issues

is the mere fact that he took the loans the cause of the debt burden or its utilisation and the appropriate pay back of the loans as and when due?

were his borrowings profilgate or judicious? were the loans used for the purposes described and were benefits apparent?

I refer you to my earlier quote.
5. Obasanjo also departed from the tradition of borrowing from multilateral/bilateral institutions to sourcing loans from the international capital market. It was at this point Nigeria laid herself open to the possibility of external debt peonage. This was because the jumbo loan had higher and variable interest as well as shorter maturity date and repayment period

OBJ started us off on the path of[b] 'jumbo' loans at higher and variable interest rates (and in doing this personally enriched himself and his cronies, while impoverishing us.[/b]

debosky:
you cannot just make blanket accusations because of your dislike for the man, please give the concrete proof to back up your claims

I do not dislike anyone, as much as I dislike all the crooks that have passed as our leaders. Unlike you, I do not engage in hair-splitting.

You infer IBB is a crook (I agree), but he has not been convicted. I infer they are all crooks, and the only proof I have are the following (collateral proof).

1. They all borrowed huge sums of money, and the estimated valuation of the projects they carried out was substantially below the borrowed sums.

2. They all left office much richer than they came in (OBJ -twice) and their wealth cannot be tied to their approved earnings over their careers.

3. They all claim (as ridiculously as Atiku), that their investments paid off ridiculously handsomely.

4. They all refuse to state publicly what they are worth, hiding behind the aprons of constitutionality for a purely 'public interest' matter.

debosky:
was the GDP slump in '77 tied to Obasanjo himself or an oil price crash or other economic activity?

we need more in depth anayses than these 'in '99 it was x, now in 2007 it is y' arguments.

Oil prices started a slump in 1973/74 but by 1977/78 (lowest - $33/ barrel Bonny light crude) were on the rise, peaking to just under $70 during the Iran/Iraq war.

In comparison, during the 1985-1999 period (including the first Gulf war), the maximum was under $30/ bbl Bonny light.

Prices again started their peaking after 1999.

OBJ has always served in a high oil price (read, revenue) environment.

So, the sharp drop in GDP growth had NOTHING to do with oil prices.

Read my lips, profligacy and a culture of borrowing to build grandiose structures, with no supporting infrastructure, are the at the root of any country's difficulties in development.

[quote author=Iyke-D link=topic=65526.msg1291487#msg1291487 date=1184441427]@Davidlan

I hope what you said above is factual - I wouldn't want you to disappoint some fellow Nigerians who holds Obasanjo
responsible for every single thing wrong with the country.[/quote]What he said, does not contradict my premise. OBJ started the cycle, Shagari and IBB mastered it. The progenitor, in my books, cannot be exonerated.

Where una dey? Doing research abi una don tire?

I dey wait!!!

debosky:
@ Iyke-D some people will not be satisfied unless things are carried out exactly as they feel it should in their minds

even in the US when mob bosses were being prosecuted, small fish were usually prosecuted first, building up experience and skills along the way before the big boss himself could be taken down.
If Obj can be proven in court to be corrupt, the best way to go IMO is to prosecute the governors who were supposedly his partners in crime. experience gained by their prosecution will lead to a better hold in Obj's case if it ever comes to that.

Hmmm, escapism has many disciples.

GNature:
According to New start Nigeria, Shagari's govt took out more loans than any other govt. (The figures below does not include money we use to owe Italy).
Shagari

AND? So how does this exonerate OBJ from the cycle of profligacy he initiated?

It may be interesting to note that Nigeria's GDP growth, started its slump in 1977, dropping frlm 6% in 1977 to -5.8% in 1978 (World bank, 1999).
Somebody was clearly responsible for this.

debosky:
thanks for the link GNature, at least that clearly debunks the '8% interest till 2004' theory.

GNature:
No probs bros. 

Not sure what this is about, and the estimate indicated is a balanced one based on OBJ's borrowing that covered official Bilateral (Paris club/ non-Paris), Multilateral, Private (e.g Promissory notes, Banks-London club). They were different interest rate regimes applied, some lower and some higher than 8%. A weighted average of 8% was used to indicate the impact, not absolute value.

GNature, my source for the figures is the Federal Ministry of Finance, Central Bank of Nigeria (CBN), Annual Report 1988, p. 22.

Methinks this is more authentic than your 'foreign' news sources, but again, you may beg to differ.

As additional information, yes Shagari ($9 billion: 1981- 1982) and IBB ($6 billion) were larger loans, but that does not exonerate OBJ (I, unlike some of you, do not defend one profligacy against another).

Ugwumba:
Strictly for those interested in intelligent discourse. I do not intend to suffer any fools, gladly or otherwise.

All apologists to OBJ, ABACHA, IBB, SHAGARI, ABUBAKAR etc., beware. The more you sound off these ludicrous defences the more you fall into the category highlighted above.

debosky:
the point about Obj borrowing 1billion dollars sounds mischevious to me - were projects not implemented with the loans? Nigeria airways, refineries and other projects were tangible evidence of what the money was used for. surely you are not blaming Obj for ballooning the debt from over 2billion in 79 to 35 billion a few years ago? how is 2 billion out of 35 billion amounting to 'the bulk' of the debts? you're being clever by half my friend

Projects, as you call them, were implemented (in IBB's time as well), but graft was well established as part of the project process (hope you were not too young to remember the 10% days).

Might I be so 'clever by whole' as to point out that $2 billion borrowed in 1977 at an interest rate of 8% would amount to $15.98billion by 2004. Subsequent governments were either unable to or refused to pay back these debts and it is really the accumulated interest (in addition, of course, to further borrowing) that led to the bloated $35billion debt portfolio. OBJ was an integral part of this problem.

Not a single one of these persons could have achieved the wealth they have from anything they have worked for in their lives.

Our money, was, pure and simply, STOLEN by these crooks.

PS - Hiding under the camouflage of the constitution is, of course unnecessary,  if there is nothing to hide. Yaradua could very well have done this. Not doing so demonstrates both his understanding of the morality (and not only legality) of public service and his relative lack of the 'graft' bone that resides in our leaders.

debosky:
I repeat, until it is a requirement of the constitution (like in the US) for presidents to declare earnings and assets annually, simply expecting them to do so out of the goodness of their hearts is wishful thinking, the constitution makes for a declaration to the Code of Conduct Bureau, which he did, so as far as I am concerned, on that note he has complied fully with the laws of the land and you cannot imply corruption simply because someone refuses to go beyond what the law requires.

Nobody has argued the constitutional provisions for asset declaration of public office holders - so your point here is irrelevant.

Strictly for those interested in intelligent discourse. I do not intend to suffer any fools, gladly or otherwise.

Culled from an international report on Stolen wealth.

1. Initially, Nigeria borrowed concessionally only from the World Bank, a multilateral institution. This explains why in 1960 when Britain - Nigeria's colonial masters-handed over power to Nigeria, she had only incurred external debts of N82.4m.

2. Borrowings were however still done with caution, disciplinary prudence and fiscal responsibility until 1977.

3. That year, Nigeria's borrowing profile changed drastically. Nigeria's head of state, Gen. Olusegun Obasanjo (1976 - 1979) obtained a jumbo loan of one billion dollars - thus breaking the tradition of taking external loans in relatively small amount.

4. In strict terms, Nigeria's foreign debts rose from $762.9m in 1977 to $2163.8m in 1978.

5. Obasanjo also departed from the tradition of borrowing from multilateral/bilateral institutions to sourcing loans from the international capital market. It was at this point Nigeria laid herself open to the possibility of external debt peonage. This was because the jumbo loan had higher and variable interest as well as shorter maturity date and repayment period.

6. It is generally agreed firstly that the military were more responsible for the nation's debt crisis. Secondly, within the military ranks, Generals Muhammadu Buhari and Sani Abacha were credited with contributing far less to Nigeria's borrowing crisis than their military colleagues.

My points;

1. OBJ has been stealing us blind since 1977. The first statement on his 'worth' in 1999 came from one of his lieutenants (Mallam Nassir El-Rufai) and his stated bank balance (not net worth) was about N20,000. This was used to demonstrate that the man was at that time poor, since there is usually some correlation between liquid and non-liquid assets.

2. So, although he illegally amassed wealth before leaving in 1979, 20 years later he was not a very wealthy man.

3. OBJ's refusal to declare his assets should be enough vindication for those who insist he is as corrupt as the next Nigerian leader. Otherwise, in the light of Yaradua's declaration of his assets, what is there to fear?

4. OBJ's regime deserves some credit for paying back our loans, but considering he was responsible for a bulk of these debts, he has really taken our money (which could have been used to move our country forward) to pay off the ones he and his fellow 'thieves-in-arms' stole.

5. OBJ, Stella (may her soul RIP), the Abebe's stole us blind between 1999 - 2007 and hopefully the God-sent forces that impoverished him by 1999 will do this again. AMEN.

mamaput:
Then you gathered something wrong.
Du you not know that Holland is the Mecca for abotions in Europe?

@mamaput, since there seems to have been no legal issues raised in the doctor's disclosure to the husband i am certain that there are circumstances where the doctor-patient priviledge can be breached.

Anyway, this is not really the main issue. I am not interferring in their affairs and the post was purely to see in what direction the public leans on real issues like this (and if there are any points of advice i can pass on).

I gather from the replies that the best i can do is to MIND MY OWN BUSINESS.

I no dey drink any panadol for my friend headache oh!!!

I have kept my advice to a minimum and just point out to both of them to take the children's interest first in whatever they do.

Both my friend and his wife know that i am not taking sides in this matter.

As to the money i gave his wife, this is the best i could do as a friend and knowing my friend he would likely misunderstand this to mean i am on his wife's side (he knows me well enough not to suspect me of paying undue attention to his wife).

mamaput:
This Ladys Doctor has a big mouth.
You cannot send a grown woman back to Nigeria he will Find her way back.
So this time he is annoyed becauseit was a white man.
I would like to ask a personal Question don't be annoyed.
Is it possible that the man your Friend is not so well off?
is it possible he was "trying" to be forgiving because of the extra mony she was bringing in.
Is it possible that now that she did it with a white man the sings were black and white on the wall.

I gather that the lady's doctor is permitted to divulge this information to her husband as the issue of a married woman aborting a pregnancy under non-health grounds is not covered by the doctor-patient confidentiality (at least, not to the partner).

Yes, part of my friend's annoyance is that it is a white guy (this time) - he has said that if na becos of him performance madam dey stray, na further insult say white man dey perform pass am.

Now, since i cannot measure / assess my friend's performance, how i go fit answer whether im dey good or not?

Onye ji ike ya eti aku, og'eji nkume (okwute) eme gini?

Literal - He who uses his buttocks to crack palm kernels, would use a stone for what?
Meaning - use implements for what they are meant to be used.

Onye gbajiri ukwu n'elu akwa, ga gbaji kwa ya n'igba oso.

Literal - He who breaks a leg while lying on a bed, will also break it while running.
Meaning - The lazy man will always find a reason why he has done no work.

Eze ta nkikiri eze, ohu ata ogwu.

Literal - when a king chews the small of his teeth, the slave eats thorns.
Meaning - the anger of the king is not spared on the slave.

Why exactly are you 'playing' hard-to-get?

If you finally start a relationship with him, all your hard-to-get gra-gra will be worth nothing.

So, take a chance with love, and if he's tha man you think he is, then he'll appreciate you - hard-to-get or not.

Been away for sometime from this post - an update.

My friend is currently making plans to move to Canada - BUT WITHOUT HIS WIFE & KIDS.

I have told him that running away from his family is not a solution. The wife has (as far as I know) behaved herself since the last incidence, but since the thing is public knowledge, my friend still (rightfully?) feels humiliated.

I have advised that relocation (with the family) is a good option for a new start, but considering that he has already tried this (in coming from Nigeria to the Netherlands ), there is no guarantee this will work.

@ Seun's thoughts coincide with mine - what is the guarantee that a new woman would be better. As I mentioned, apart from her weakness with sex, she is a super mum and wife.

Some friends have talked about 'sex-therapy', but neither them nor I know how and whether at all this wotks.

We should all wish Thierry well, for all the service to the Gunners and the Premiership. My only issue is that the price was low and we also have not tried to get any top notch striker for next season.

@mukina2, if you are wise (I know you are), you will ignore the previous poster  and his rabid posts, as I have done in the past.

"Thank God, God no be man oh,
For if man be God oh,
I for don die oh,
I for don kpeme oh".

GNature:
IBB stole money when he was in power. What does OBJ have to do with this ? These are two different times in history

@GNat, the original author's point, which you sadly, or purposely, missed was that OBJ's anti-corruption fight failed, if knowing that IBB stole our money, nothing was done about him.

PS1 - We Nigerians seem to have this habit of 'splitting hairs' when it comes to corruption. A conflict of interest, which leads to a leader enriching himself is as much of corruption as the brazen looting of the nation's treasury. Until, and unless, we start to think in this manner, corruption, and its attendant impoverishing of our nation, will remain with us.

PS2- In the Netherlands, where I live, a councillor was 'forced' to leave office by his (unaccounted for) entertainment expenses of Euro1,000 (about N170,000). Now, that is zero tolerance for corruption - little wonder that the Netherlands frequently makes the top ten of 'least corrupt' nations in the world.

luvhenry:
from a very relaible source
okocha late 40's
kanu 42 dot
oruma 57.
mr garba lawal between 65 and 70
taribo is in his late 50's almost 60

@ luvhenry, your 'reliable' source is very unreliable if it quotes that age for Austin Okocha. Austin's older brother (the real Jay-jay) may be over 40, but I know for a fact that Austin himself is 37 this year (I think he claims about 32-34). Why am I so certain? I played soccer with Jay-jay in Enugu and we are about the same age - Austin was just a year older than my little cousin, born after the civil war in 1971.

desorlah:
Didnt you see what i posted? i said my intelligence, the way i walk, my pointed nose and my smile.

Ehhmmmm, i was replying to ika (ikamefa).

sw:
Tellthem, i think we are compatible, just e-mail me, tell your boyfriend that u've gotten someone that appreciate u. waiting for you reply.

sw:
kachi_face, me first!


Cute_asss can i hook up with u as i plan to visit Norway before d end of the year

@sw, are you trying to be helpful or just fishing?

ikamefa:
Lmao when will you change? toe nails of all things!

bia you dey grow diamond encrusted toe nails or what?

ika, all the other things described are too 'normal' for me oh!!! who hasn't seen intelligent people, big b**bs and a$$, nice smile, fine bear-bear, fine legs, etc. Let's go beyond the ordinary.

PS - u no talk your own oh!!!!

My toe nails.

Igbo, ekelem'unu oh!!! Y'all are clearly enjoying this thread, going by the number of posts. KEEP IT GOING!!!!  

mrpataki:
Be ready for massive rushing by the boiz!

Just be careful for wolves in sheep clothing

Can't rush what you can't see. Let her post some pics, then the rushing can start.

Theoretical physics.

ps - don't all careers require creativity?

tatajega:
Seun Asewa,seun,, seun, whats da big deal about this guy or girl or maybe an existent software created to watch and carefully moderate sessions on this forum, I ask only one question,,,''HAS ANY BODY REALLY SEEN OR MET THIS SEUN B4'',have you ever thought that this guy might really be different persons on a cue in a time table,''DO U THINK IT IS POSSIBLE 4 ONE MAN TO MODERATE THIS FORUM''?i need answers plsssssssssssssss.

myssfyne:
You don't see foreign actors in our movies because all nollywood ever acts is how we think as Nigerians.I don't see a white man coming to act a witchcraft movie or iya basira or babalawo!!!!!

ROFLMAO - 

The best and smartest contribution, so far.

Even as a die hard Gunner, MANU deserves all the accolades this season. Never thought I would say this, but here goes - UP MAN U!!!

Thanks for putting Chelski in their place (with our help oh!!), and hope we can resume the 'real' premiership rivalry next season (not this 'fake' Chelsea thing).

Calling anyone 'poor' and 'lowly' simply because they have asked for help is rather mean. Let's all try and remember the desperation that comes with hunger and the struggle to make ends meet back home, and not get pig-headed by the opportunity and luck we may have had in life.

So, your Naija friends, family etc. ask for help? Do what you can, within reason, to help and you will be richly rewarded. God blesses those who bless others.

[quote author=Iyke-D link=topic=49143.msg1047452#msg1047452 date=1176849164]@Ugwumba

You seem to be all for Obasanjo conducting himself with the highest standard of probity and accountability, but strangely enough (maybe I missed it) I
don't see you making such calls on Atiku and the likes. If we are talking about highest standards here, Atiku should not be presenting himself to contest,
rather he should be hiding in shame somewhere. Please name the country in the world where a VP that was elected in a joint ticket, quits his party and
yet wants to claim the right as VP to contest in another election. I am not even discussing PDTF here. Where else does that happen but in a mad country
like outs? What happened to resignation, isn't that what people do when they disagree and can no longer work together?[/quote]When you find the post where I support Atiku, please kindly inform the forum. I was actually categorical that Atiku must be voted against.

Ugwumba:
While we celebrate this victory of the separation of powers, I urge my brothers to vote against Atiku, PDP and all they represent.

I still find it difficult to understand how people cannot make the distinction between the perception that one is corrupt and a conviction by a court. In the former, we may use our democratic right to vote to ensure the individual is not elected (since he cannot be disqualified based on this perception), while in the latter the courts will disqualify him/her.

To answer your other question - which country do you know where a sitting VP is sacked from the party he belongs, banned from contesting primaries, insulted by those appointed by him at a FEC meeting, asked to give up his immunity to be prosecuted, prevented from carrying out any duties etc. etc. etc. You may not agree, but resignation, sometimes, is cowardly. Better to stand your ground and fight for your life (Clinton did not resign over the Lewinsky scandal).

YOU OBJ APOLOGISTS MUST STOP THIS NONESENSE, because each of your arguments have been trashed 15 out of 16 times by an independent adjudicator (the courts, not me), and yet you still cannot see how very wrong you have been.

@ McKren, again I will disagree on a rather minor (in the context you have presented it), but important point.

McKren:
@Ugwumba
I do also think the President deserve some respect for allowing the Judges do their job without interfering.

It is only in Africa that a democratically elected president will be assumed to have done good for abiding by the doctrine of the 'separation of powers', entrenched in the same constitution he has sworn to uphold. The truth is that any interference should have been roundly condemned, while non-interference is not to be praised, but expected.

We must learn to hold our leaders to the highest standards of probity and accountability for their actions and inactions, as other developed democracies hold theirs.