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IslamRe: Qur'an: Human Rights, Freedom & Equity by usermane(op): 4:29am On Mar 25, 2019
najib632:
This shows you're a stupid person. How do you expect 1400 years to be the same as these normal times?
You're faith blind. What makes pedophilia not OK in 2019 if it is OK in 623?
Time to dump this argument because Muslims scholars of today have no issue with pedophilia. Khomeini lowered age of girl marriage to 9 in Iran after coming to power. In many rural pockets of Muslimdom, child brides continue partly under influence of Islam.
IslamRe: Allah Created Humans From Clay/sand? - Thread Commentary by usermane(op): 6:51am On Mar 24, 2019
The implication is none other than mechanical manipulation or alteration of a physical mass. It deals with form, structure and shape. In context of "hama-in masnunin", the impression is mud mechanically altered, much similar to the procedure of molding clay into man than the process of evolving man from clay.
IslamRe: Allah Created Humans From Clay/sand? - Thread Commentary by usermane(op): 6:50am On Mar 24, 2019
مَسْنُونٌ [Bitten with the teeth: whence, app., what next follows]. You say أَرْضٌ مَسْنُونَــةٌ and ↓ سَنِينٌ meaning Land of which the herbage has been eaten.

(L, K.) B2: Sharpened, or whetted, or made sharp-pointed, and polished; as also ↓ سَنِينٌ; (M, L, Kwink applied to a knife (K) or thing [of any kind].

(M, L.) Made smooth. (S, L.) Formed, fashioned, or shaped. (S, M, L.) Made long. (L.) You say وَجْهٌ مَسْنُونٌ (assumed tropicalsmiley A face in which is length, without breadth; (مَخْروُطٌwink smooth and even; or smooth and long; or long, and not high in the ball; or soft, tender, thin, and even; as though the flesh were ground (سُنَّ [like as a thing is ground in sharpening and polishing]) from it. (M, L.) And رَجُلٌ مَسْنُونُ الوَجْهِ (assumed tropicalsmiley A man beautiful and smooth in the face: (Lh, M, L, Ksmiley or a man in whose nose and face is length: (S, L, Ksmiley or beautiful and long in the face.
http://lisaan.net/search/%D9%85%D8%B3%D9%86%D9%88%D9%86?cat=50
IslamRe: Allah Created Humans From Clay/sand? - Thread Commentary by usermane(op): 6:49am On Mar 24, 2019
The primary impression formed from all the underlined words in all the tafsir cited is that 'hama-in masnumin' implies mechanical manipulation of mud, molding. These sages thought that Qur'an meant mud was molded into man form, smoothed and dried to sounding clay and the inanimate mass was imbued with life.

Lets see what the dictionary William Edward Lane, Arabic English Lexicon define 'masnunin' as;
IslamRe: Allah Created Humans From Clay/sand? - Thread Commentary by usermane(op): 6:48am On Mar 24, 2019
Ibn Kathir
(of altered mud) means the dried clay that comes from mud, which is soil. "Altered'' here means smooth.

Abu ala Maududi
"Masnun" has a double meaning: (a) "rotten clay which has become greasy" (b) clay which has been molded into a shape." It is clear from the wording of the text that at first the image of man was made of clay from rotten earth and when it dried up, soul was breathed into it.

Thus the Qur'an positively refutes the Darwinian theory of Evolution that man came into existence after passing through continuous genetic adaptations. It will, therefore, be a futile attempt, as some modernized commentators have done, to prove that theory from the Qur'an.
Citations here; https://quranx.com/tafsirs/15.26
IslamRe: Allah Created Humans From Clay/sand? - Thread Commentary by usermane(op): 6:47am On Mar 24, 2019
Al Jalalayn
And verily We created man, Adam, out of a dry [clinking] clay, that gives off a clinking sound when it is tapped, of malleable mud, black [mud].

Kashani Kashani
And verily We created man out of a dry [clinking] clay of malleable mud, that is, out of the four admixed elements, since ḥamaÌ is mud that changes and masnūn is that [mud] on which water is poured until it is rid of hard or rough particles that are intemperate and are resistant to the acceptance of the form that is to be conceptualised from it; al-ṣalṣāl is that [clay] which is penetrated by air and becomes dry by heating.
IslamRe: Allah Created Humans From Clay/sand? - Thread Commentary by usermane(op): 6:46am On Mar 24, 2019
Tafsir Ibn Abbas
(Verily We created man) Adam (of potter's clay) of dry clay (of black mud altered) clay that stinks; it is also said that this means: shaped clay.

Asrar Kashf Al Asrar
Kaʿb said to a man among those sitting with him, “Ask Ibn ʿUmar from what God created Adam.” Ibn ʿUmar said, “He created Adam from five things: clay, water, fire, light, and wind.”

At Ibn ʿUmar's response, Kaʿb said, “Sit with him, for surely he is a man of knowledge.” What is understood from this report is that the Exalted Lord created Adam from five things: clay, water, fire, light, and wind.
IslamRe: Allah Created Humans From Clay/sand? - Thread Commentary by usermane(op):
Word for word translation: And Verily We created man from/of salsalin from/of hama-in masnunin.

Note the transliterated words; salsalin, hama-in, masnunin. Salsalin is clear, dried & sounding clay like pottery(55:4) and hama-in is clear too, mud - mix of water/soil(clay). And then we come to masnunin, all kinds of translations; altered, molded, fashioned, aged, transmuted. Which is right? What does masnunin mean?

Let see how earlier Muslims understood this term.
IslamRe: Allah Created Humans From Clay/sand? - Thread Commentary by usermane(op): 6:44am On Mar 24, 2019
Muhammad Sarwar: We have created the human being out of pure mud-moulded clay

Mohsin Khan: And indeed, We created man from sounding clay of altered black smooth mud.

Edip-Layth: We have created the human being from hardened clay of aged mud.

Muhammad Asad: AND, INDEED, We have created man out of sounding clay, out of dark-slime transmuted
IslamRe: Allah Created Humans From Clay/sand? - Thread Commentary by usermane(op): 6:44am On Mar 24, 2019
Qur'an 15:26

Sahih International: And We did certainly create man out of clay from an altered black mud.

Pickthall: Verily We created man of potter's clay of black mud altered,

Yusuf Ali: We created man from sounding clay, from mud moulded into shape;

Shakir: And certainly We created man of clay that gives forth sound, of black mud fashioned in shape.
IslamRe: Allah Created Humans From Clay/sand? - Thread Commentary by usermane(op):
Nothing new, still buttressing his view earlier on. As shown in chapter 4, Qur'an strongly implies what Albaqr denies - that God hath literally molded clay into human form, according to Qur'an. For a Muslim known to research broadly on Islamic issues before drawing conclusion, Albaqr seem to have lost his touch here.

Lets see more of what the Qur'an reveals on genesis of man.
IslamRe: Allah Created Humans From Clay/sand? - Thread Commentary by usermane(op): 6:41am On Mar 24, 2019
Chapter 8: Update!! Qur'an - Man evolved from clay or clay molded to man?

Asalam alaykum

I see that Albaqr has updated his contribution on the thread I'm commenting on. Lets get into it.

Albaqr: ORIGIN OF LIFE

Why is it alien to some skeptics that Adam was created from "clay"? We are not giving the idea of molding clay into human form blah blah blah blah blah. Anyway, watch this:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xyhZcEY5PCQ&t=245s
IslamRe: Qur'an: Human Rights, Freedom & Equity by usermane(op): 12:50pm On Mar 23, 2019
true2god:
It will be fair for you to understand the context surah albaqra 256. This is not a general rule for religious freedom in Islam according to the tafsir of Ibn Kathir on this ayah (quran 2:256). And again surah 9 (the last surah of the quran) of the quran abrogated all the previous surah (according to Ibn Kathir). So if you want to make a final decision on this matter, surah 9 will give you a better guide and nowhere did surah 9 advocated for religious freedom.
You made a good argument. Verses like 9:5 & 9:29, 5:33 comes to mind here. But although my out look on Qur'an is not the same as when I started this thread, my purpose here is still the same. I want this as a love letter to liberal Muslims who identify as Muslims but are out there fighting for UHRFE in Muslim countries. And so for this one thread, I'll let aside Abrogation.
IslamRe: Qur'an: Human Rights, Freedom & Equity by usermane(op):
The role of Muhammad is repeatedly limited to delivering Qur'an. As evident, these verses absolves Muhammad of other obligations like enforcing "sharia" as fanatic Muslims seek. If even the messenger, the first Head of the first Muslim State didn't have the authority to enforce, then no Muslim have such authority.

NB: These verses and their apparent support for freedom of belief and expression are overlooked and unappreciated in the traditional Muslim theology because they are considered as abrogated. Thus explaining why several traditional Islamic principles and laws oppose these verses.
IslamRe: Qur'an: Human Rights, Freedom & Equity by usermane(op): 8:51am On Mar 23, 2019
42:48
But if they turn away, then We did not send you as their guardian. You are only required to deliver.

88:21-22
So remind, only you are a reminder. You are not over them a controller/supervisor.
IslamRe: Qur'an: Human Rights, Freedom & Equity by usermane(op): 8:50am On Mar 23, 2019
5:99
The only duty of the messenger is to deliver. God knows what you reveal and what you conceal.

24:54
Say: "Obey God, and obey the messenger." But if you turn away, then he is only responsible for his obligation, and you are responsible for your obligations. And if you obey him, you will be guided. The messenger is only required to deliver clearly.
IslamRe: Qur'an: Human Rights, Freedom & Equity by usermane(op): 8:49am On Mar 23, 2019
If there is room for an authority to ensure Muslims abide by Islamic rules on salat, zakat, pork or alcohol etc, Qur'an would have instructed Muhammad on strict measures against Muslims who do not abide. Yet here is what the Qur'an instruct him to do with such Muslims.

26:215-217
And lower your wing for any who follow you of the believers. But, if they disobey you, say: "I am innocent from what you do." And put trust in the All mighty, Most merciful
IslamRe: Qur'an: Human Rights, Freedom & Equity by usermane(op):
Right of Muslims or Anyone to Disregard Islamic laws

68:44 & 26:216
So leave me Me and whoever denies this message. We'll lead them from where not they know.
This verse sure proves even Muslims have the individual right to disobey Islamic laws if they want. Because if Muslims opt to disobey any Qur'anic stipulation, then they deny Qur'an indirectly. And as shown in this verse, such persons who deny Qur'an are to be left to God. Not bothered in any way by any man.
IslamRe: Qur'an: Human Rights, Freedom & Equity by usermane(op):
Right of Non-Muslims to reject Islam & Muslims to apostatize from Islam unconditionally

2:256 & 18:29
There shall be no compulsion in religion: the right way is now distinct from the wrong way.

Say, "The truth is from your Lord, whoever desires may acknowledge, and whoever desires may reject.
If a single verse that support Freedom of Belief and Expression is wanted, either of these verses suffice. They accept apostasy by Muslims, reject forced conversion explicitly, but on closer inspection seem opposed to the Hisba or Dhimmi system which are basically covert means of repressing freedom of belief and expression in traditional Islam.
IslamRe: Qur'an: Human Rights, Freedom & Equity by usermane(op): 8:48am On Mar 23, 2019
Freedom Of Belief and Expression

Qur'anic verses abound supporting the rights of;

(a) Non-Muslims to reject Islam unconditionally
(b) Muslims to reject apostatize unconditionally.
(c) Muslims to disregard Islamic laws.

Next, I'll cite these verses and afterwards expose how corrupt and fanatic Muslims infringe on these three basic rights.
IslamRe: Muslim: Monotheist Vs Anti-monotheist by usermane(op): 7:55am On Mar 23, 2019
See how these hadith breed complacency and undermine righteousness? This will make a interesting topic for some other day. But notice how much weakness plague them, yet this is only the beginning. The beginning of a long trail that inevitably expose the deification of Muhammad in traditional Islam.
IslamRe: Muslim: Monotheist Vs Anti-monotheist by usermane(op): 7:54am On Mar 23, 2019
Jami` at-Tirmidhi » Chapters on Virtues
"Whoever cheats the Arabs, he will not be included in my intercession, and my love shall not reach him."
One condition you must meet to get intercession... is not to cheat the Arabs. But you can cheat the Persians or the Byzantines or the Indians. And in case you cheat the Arabs, no worries. Just fast every Arafat and Ashura day till death, all your past and future sins will be forgiven by your time of death.
IslamRe: Muslim: Monotheist Vs Anti-monotheist by usermane(op): 7:54am On Mar 23, 2019
Sahih Muslim » The Book of Prayer - Funerals
If a company of Muslims numbering one hundred pray over a dead person, all of them interceding for him, their intercession for him will be accepted.
Yes, I guess it matter not how you live but how you're buried in traditional Islam. You can rape, plunder, drink, gamble and massacre all your life. Then hire 100 Muslims to pray over your corpse after you die, and paradise is yours.
IslamRe: Muslim: Monotheist Vs Anti-monotheist by usermane(op):
Hadith on Intercession breeding Complacency & Undermining Good deeds

Jami` at-Tirmidhi » Chapters on the description of the Day of Judgement
"My intercession is for the people who committed the major sins in my Ummah."
If people commit any sin, God is always available for sincere repentance(Qur'an 2:186). There is really no need for Muhammad's intercession. If the sinner dies before he repents, then he's doomed. Even Muhammad cannot save him. No shortcut or cheat code to paradise. You reap what you sow.
IslamRe: Muslim: Monotheist Vs Anti-monotheist by usermane(op): 7:52am On Mar 23, 2019
For Muhammad to condemn intercessors other than Allah, and then turn around to declare himself or anyone else, or anything else as intercessor other than Allah is deceptively contradictory & tantamount to him declaring himself a partner with God, a mediator between God & man, which is polytheistic.

Let's see how this polytheistic doctrine of intercession was incorporated into tradition Islam.
IslamRe: Muslim: Monotheist Vs Anti-monotheist by usermane(op): 7:52am On Mar 23, 2019
So, practically there is really no intercession. It is an empty promise that only polytheists share. What is worse, traditional Muslims have not only accorded Muhammad the power of intercession as pagans accorded stones and statue, but they posit that inanimate and intangible objects like salat or Qur'an have the power to intercede, and so do individual Muslims like those who have memorized the whole Qur'an.

Here is what Muhammad said about the Arabs taking intercessors;

[quote author=39:43]Or choose they intercessors other than Allah? Say: What! Even though they have power over nothing and have no intelligence?[/quote]
IslamRe: Muslim: Monotheist Vs Anti-monotheist by usermane(op): 7:50am On Mar 23, 2019
Intercession - Smoking gun of Polytheism

There is intercession on the day of Judgement.

[quote author=Qur'an 20:109]On that Day shall no intercession avail except for those for whom permission has been granted by Most Gracious and whose word is acceptable to Him.[/quote]But this intercession is neither a unique power of anyone nor beneficial to anyone.

[quote author=40:18]Warn them of the Day of the approaching, when the hearts will be choking the throats, there will be no friend for the wrong-doers, nor any intercessor who will be heard.[/quote]
IslamRe: Challenge Of The Quran : Produce The Like Of This Quran by usermane(m):
LordReed2nd: LoL! I was expecting this answer. The Qur'an's purported intricate numeric patterns pales in comparison with feats of mathematical genius men have come up with. Just as an example it will take a supercomputer till the end of the universe to break the strongest encryption codes men have devised.
Encrypting codes is not the same as embedding numeric patterns within a coherent prose. The challenge is for you to create a text book with so many sentences permeated with such an extensive numeric pattern.

NB: I may have reservations for the Numerical miracle but I got to admit it does seem quite extraordinary.

true2god: Quite interesting! If only you can justify your claims by providing evidence from Islamic source documents.
Man, have you not read Muslim writings on these subjects. Why not refer to Muslim evangelical(dawah) websites.

tintingz: I disagree, i don't think the arabs in 7th century were all illiterates.
They were virtually all illiterates. Like I said, Written Arabic was at infancy during Qur'an revelation. This is why the original Qur'an manuscript lacked diacritic or vowel marks. You can't have literacy in a language while the alphabets are still being developed.
Now, when the Qur'an was written it was something unique, at least for its time.

I don't see how this is a miracle and make any sense. Anybody can formulate anything out like a puzzle. Why not present this numerical miracle of the Quran and it usefulness.
Just Google "Miracle of 19" or "Numerical miracles of Qur'an". You can start here; https://submission.org/miracle.html

Mention them.
You should know my position on these miracles by now. Have you not seen my posts? Still some Muslims swear by them, so I guess if you are to write your own Qur'an, you have to incorporate scientific miracles.

Google "Scientific Miracles of Qur'an".

Same goes for numerical miracles.

And where is the splitted moon?
Man, how can you leave Islam before learning this?

See; https://submission.org/splitting_of_the_moon.html

NB: Of course there may be flaws, but it is quite intriguing.

And as more and more Muslims are buying into this as prophecy, then I guess you should keep it in mind while producing your own Qur'an.

I can write a well rational and scientific revelation that will beat the Quran challenge.
Can you write scientific stuff that scientists have not yet uncovered? This is what scientific miracle mean. Of course, there is no scientific miracle in the Qur'an, but that is my own conclusion.

Unfortunately the Quran didn't mention any parameters as to meet the Quran challenge.
Fair point.

He's a Quranist, he doesn't believe in the Hadith.
Says who? I no longer bother with tags, 'Qur'anist', or 'Muslim', 'Christian', 'Atheist'. Can't you see these tags breeds divisions, disunity, distrust and hate? I am just me - a dispassionate reader of the Scriptures.
IslamRe: Challenge Of The Quran : Produce The Like Of This Quran by usermane(m): 7:16am On Mar 19, 2019
Peace.

To challenge the Qur'an based on this verse, bear these in mind:

Qur'an was an outstanding literature for the 7th century Arabia. Especially, given that illiteracy was norm then and there. At the time of its revelation, Written Arabic was still at infancy.

Next, the Qur'an seem to possess a very elaborate and intricate numeric pattern that is embedded in the text and that many Muslims today are completely awed by. This is regarded as the Numerical Miracles of Qur'an.

Then the purported scientific miracles.

And lastly the purported prophecies like splitting of the moon.

Not that I mean to advocate for the Qur'an, only just contributing what I feel is necessary to keep in mind if one is to take on the Qur'an's challenge.

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