₦airaland Forum

true2god:
Criticism of Islam is termed blasphemy by all the 5 schools of Islamic jurisprudence. The so-called radical muslims are simply following core Islamic teachings, or the sunnah.

The bolded will surely lead to an early grave for anyone who say such thing in Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Iran, Sudan, etc. If I say such thing in the US, Canada and Europe, I cant go scot-free, because Muslims are in the minority.

While I appreciate your attempt at moderating the reactions of Muslims with regards to criticism of religion, do not spread a wrong information concerning an issue like this.

Yeah, I know. Please read the warnings and disclaimers at the beginning of this thread - https://www.nairaland.com/4789914/quran-human-rights-freedom-equity#72197618

I never claimed to speak on behalf of any Islamic school or sect. I speak on authority of the Qur'anic verses I've cited; 13:32, 4:140, 9:65-66, 33:48, 15:94-97.

Lastly, I'm not attempting to moderate reactions of Muslims. This thread is dedicated only to Muslims who appreciate human rights and freedom but are unsure if the Qur'an support them.

tintingz:
I don't seem to get the bolded part.

What I mean is that scientific knowledge is not always perfect and consistent yardstick for scrutinizing religious text like Qur'an.

tintingz:
Then you should be agnostic, religion make claims everything in their scriptures is 100% true and fact.

Be honest with your position.

There are already scientific research that makes the Quran claims fairytales.

Did you turn atheist over night? Do realize scientific facts of yesterday are myths of today? And myths of yesterday are facts of today?

This is a complicated subject and in the meantime I'll give the Qur'an benefit of doubt. I'm definitely shifting my approach to Qur'an and venturing into in-depth analysis of verses relevant to science and history.

Seek knowledge from the Orthodox creed and Schools of taught, evolution is a theory that tries to make the One Who revealed the Qur'an to look imperfect. So please sir make a bit of research before answering topics like this. I am sorry if sound too harsh, but I am just being frank.

I'm sorry if I gave the impression that I support evolution, I'm not fully convinced of it either. But evolution is not the bone of contention. The bone of contention is whether man was made from clay as the Qur'an states. And I'm saying scientific knowledge contradicts that.

najib632: You think you know more than people who spend life times studying the Qur'an? If this is not hypocrisy I don't know what else to call it, you don't even know the basics of Islam.

Because I reject the basics doesn't mean I don't know the basics. It is not rocket science.

For you not to knowing this verse shows your ignorance and rash conclusions and the hypocrisy of your love towards the Qur'an, don't be like tintinz who got misguided due to his arrogance with ignorance, seek knowledge and don't jump into conclusion a single Google search would have saved me the trouble of typing all of this.

My approach to the Qur'an is multilateral. OK, 21:30 may roughly resemble Big Bang theory. But you know what? In several other ancient mythologies, like the Greeks, the Sumerians, or even Hindu scriptures, the heaven and earth were originally one joint entity before they were parted.

najib632: This shows your high level of ignorance... in the book of Isiah chapter 29 verse 12: And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, say ing, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned.

OK, but this passage doesn't indicate that the one to whom the book is delivered remained ignorant till death. For a man who supposedly enjoined people to seek knowledge even from China, it is completely unbelievable that he never learnt to read and write. And how exactly did he even cross check what his scribes wrote from his dictation?

This is evidence from the Torah that came before him that he was an illiterate, You just presented a verse that you don't know it's purpose of revelation and you, think you can use the Qur'an against Islam?

Use what against what? See, I couldn't care less about "Islam". Qur'an is what I bother with. I am a Muslim, but I don't want to be just any Muslim, I want to approach Qur'an with less partiality than the common Muslims. I'm not out against Islam, I'm just stating what I understand the Qur'an states.

najib632: How come you don't appreciate the astronomical achievements of the Muslims that they discovered through the Quran? You don't appreciate the optics and algebra? You don't appreciate the use of honey as medicine? These were discovered from the knowledge of the Qur'an and the hadith(that you reject

I appreciate these achievements, but I think it is too much of a stretch to attribute them to Qur'an. Muslims had the Qur'an for 23 years of Muhammad's prophethood, 29 years of 'Rightly Guided' caliphs and 89 years of Ummayad caliphate, how much did they achieve in those period?

Look, I want my approach to Qur'an and Islam to be indifferent, impartial and multilateral.

Do you understand the Arabic yourself? I am sure you don't.

What do you insinuate? I understand little Arabic, but there are ample online resources like Corpus Qur'an and Arabic English dictionaries(Lisan al Arab) to assist me in translating Qur'an.

najib632:
Look at the diagram of zygote or and infant child and yell me where you find the testicles, the Quran is book that is book that will serve for therest of humanity so it's not everything that the early Muslims will be able to translate and Muhammad S.A.W will translate only as much as Allah wills.

Please read and digest that verse properly, it is speaking about sexual fluid from which zygote and fetus forms. I don't see where 'testicles' and 'infant' comes in. I'm yet to find a convincing interpretation clears all suspicion and doubts concerning that verse. I've read tafsir of Ibn Kathir, Ibn Abbas and Al Jalalayn and none of them make sense, they all repeat the ancient myth on the source of sexual fluids.

Early Muslims didn't translate the Qur'an, Qur'an is in their language. And, they should understand everything in it. I mean according you traditionalists, the sahabas were the most knowledgeable concerning the Book of Allah and the Sunnah.

tintingz:
Ok

No one knows the origin of life. Science have theories, religions have fairytales, mythology.

God who allowed evil to exist should have stop it but he did nothing and wants to punish his creation for what he caused, that alone is not fair. Life itself is not fair.

Fair point.

We don't let people get away with evil, there are laws that covers that. But for finite entity to be punished for eternity doesn't make any sense. There's no proof for afterlife, it's just a delusion religious people use to find comfort.

The laws only deals with those who are caught or held accountable by the authorities. Those who escape or are really powerful never face the law.

Lol, God does not protect anybody even in his worship place. Divine protection is imaginary.

Well, as long as the theists feel their prayers are getting answered, they don't care if it is imaginary or not. Their perception of reality is not necessarily grounded in rationality.

Make no mistake, my intent is not to defend theists. I just thought if you wonder why they undermine atheism, then I could help by sharing their issues with atheism.

Here are two more reasons theists dismiss atheism.

4- Eternal Life: People love life, they want to believe death is not the end. In return for a righteous life, theism promises them eternal life after death, while atheism doesn't.

5- What if God exist after all: Even if there is 99.9% proof for non-existence of God, atheism can be risky. For some, it is safer to continue in theism till death and never meet God than to turn atheist, only to come face to face with God after death.

Peace.

Regardless of the fanatics, in light of the aforementioned verses, non-Muslims should be free to make statements as "Muhammad was a false prophet, Muhammad was morally wrong to sleep with a 9 years old kid, Muhammad's massacre of Banu Qurayza is war crime".

These statement while blasphemous, do not directly insult or curse Muhammad and to punish or censor the speaker is not Qur'anically legit.

In informal or unofficial matters between persons, blasphemy or insulting of religion is no concern of the state, it does not threaten peace & diplomacy at a society level and so should be overlooked by the state.

Reconciling Courtesy & Tact With Freedom to Blaspheme

In official or formal discourse, Freedom for blasphemy may need be limited for the sake of peace and courtesy, so unwarranted insult and cursing of religion may be censored by the state. But polite criticism of religion must be permitted as criticism is needed for intellectual and rational discourse on religion.

For moderate Muslims, this is reasonable. But not so for the fanatic Muslims, because they can't even stand criticism - as seen from the cases above, they lump criticism of Islam with insulting of Islam and desire to harm/censor anyone whose statements or observations on Islam is negative.

Cont. Below

So, trust in God alone as you deduce salat with Qur'an and Reason. There is probability that the traditional salat procedure is an innovation after Muhammad.

It also helps to know the hadith confirms that the traditional Muslim salat procedure practiced today was not recognized or approved by some of Muhammad's earlier followers.

Yahya related to me from Malik from his paternal uncle Abu Suhayl ibn Malik that his uncle's father said, "I recognise nothing nowadays of what I saw the people (i.e. the companions of the Messenger, may Allah bless him and grant him peace ) doing except the call to prayer."
Muwatta Malik - Book of Prayer

Cont. Below

Salat is to be recited audibly(17:78), but hadith demand silent or very loud recitation. Traditional Muslim salat may seem impressive with so much scrupulosity, but it is sheer pretentiousness, and that is no guarantee it is THE valid procedure.

Interestingly, Hadith may even reflect this;

The messenger said; "A group of people will appear among you whose prayer, fasting and deeds will make you think little of your own prayer, fasting and deeds. They will recite the Qur'an, but it will not get past their throats, and they will pass through the deen like an arrow passes through game.
Muwatta malik - Book of Qur'an

Cont. Below

Examples: How Hadith turns Muslims from God

Hadith contradicts God's stipulations. For instance, fast is to be terminated at full darkness, night in Qur'an 2:187, yet hadith demand hastening to break fast only at sunset.

Zakat like other charities is to be donated to needy(30:37-38), but hadith limit it to the poor & prioritize or limit its recipients to Muslims. Hajj may be performed through the 4 sacred months(2:197), but hadith limit it to 5 days of only one month.

Cont. Below

So, I will not resort to twisting Qur'anic verses and scientific facts to justify such verses or cook up "scientific miracles" of Qur'an. Muslims need to to approach the their religious texts with less partiality and dogmatism.

Plus, I'd also be hesitant to defend the Qur'an because it has for long been hijacked as a weapon by fanatic Muslims for their transgression. I'm afraid that my defense of the Qur'an inadvertently strengthens the fanatic Muslims in Muslim community.

Peace & Adios.

Chapter 7: Let's Be Impartial Muslims

In response to tinting, I'll admit that Qur'an verses on Adam's creation seem contrary to scientific knowledge and I currently have no sure defense for the Qur'an here. Regardless of what Muslims think of this response, it is OK.

This may be doubting the Qur'an, but not tantamount to apostasy. Besides, scientific knowledge is dynamic, perhaps proof for the Qur'an will surface in the future. But for all we know now, these verses are not defensible.

Next, Albaqr states that he doesn't take Qur'an verses on human origins all literally.

If I didn't accept literalism of God having literal hand, why should I treat "created Adam from clay with my hands" literally?

Funny, without the privilege of living in an age of information and scientific breakthrough, Muslims can only afford an all literal interpretation of these verses. Also, how do Muslims exactly decide whether a verse is literal or non-literal or a mix?

[quote author=22:5-7]O people, if you are in doubt as to the resurrection, then We have created you from dust, then from a drop, then from a clot, then from a lump, so that We make it clear to you. That is because God gives life to the dead, and He is capable of all things. And God will resurrect those who are in the graves.[/quote]See? Qur'an likens our creation to eventual recreation from our graves, from dust on the last day. It would be strange to assume each human being will begin to re-evolve from stage to stage to emerge in their ultimate human form before meeting the Lord.

[quote author=5:110]Behold! will say God, “O Jesus, Behold! I strengthened you with Spirit, the Holy, you spoke to the Mankind in the cradle and walking. And behold! you created from the clay like shape of the bird with My will, but you blew in her, & she was a bird with My will.[/quote]By divine guidance, Jesus created a living bird from an inanimate clay statue. This isn't gradual evolution, this is instant creation. It is what makes sense if we regard God as the scriptures state - all perfect, all intelligent and all powerful.

Abu Layth says Qur'an support evolution, he cites 21:30 implies the common origin of all life - water. He says 23:12-13 refers to Adam placed as a drop on earth to initiate the evolution/succession chain, the khalifa(succession) mentioned in 2:30.

Say anything else? Yes, he said the one soul(7:189) all life emerged from is feminine, definitely not the soul of Adam. And speculated that such a soul might be a sort of progenitor to biogenesis. He states nothing about the Qur'anic verses emphasizing clay.

But the Qur'an verses I've cited previously imply creation, not evolution. Here are more verses to ponder;

Chapter 6: The Evolutionist Mufti

Albaqr: This is Mufti Abu Layth al-Maliki. He talks a lot on evolution, human before human being and briefly on Adam's being created from clay.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7CYLT19GX5k


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJ8YbFc_emg


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RJe0SL67QzM

You can bypass the videos of Mufti Abu Layth that Albaqr left at the end of page 4. If you insist on watching, skip the second video and the first 60 mins of the third video. Jeez, can somebody please give Albaqr a class in video editing or referencing?

To me, Atheism is not foolishness. In fact, it has attractive merits like deeper appreciation and focus for current life which may motivate human creativity or productivity. But it has strange drawbacks that lead many to just conclude it is foolish. I'll list a couple of them.

1. Origin of Life - Life can only originate from pre-existing life. Atheism still can't account for origin of life.
2. Divine justice - No difference between the fate of evil doers and good doers after death. Atheism tend to let people get away with evil.
3. Divine protection - People feel protected by their God/god(s), atheism is abandoning this 'protection', leaving people vulnerable to all harms.

Just my two cents. I hope tintingz, Akin1212 & other atheists now better understand why some theists speak so condescendingly about atheism.

Salat
See my previous inputs on salat and Qur'an:

Arabs Observed Salat Before Muhammad, God Never Condemned their Procedure

Salat Without Hadith

An Analysis of Qur'an 8:35: Did Pre-Islamic Arabs Literally Clap & Whistle as Salat

Clapping & Whistling in the Arabs' Salat

Singing, Humming & Clapping/Whistling in Traditionalists' salat

Relevant articles;
Salat - A Qur'anic Adaptation

Fasting
Procedures well stipulated in Qur'an. See relevant articles.
Fasting - A Qur'anic Adaptation

Zakat
Spending out of one's blessings - wealth, health, skill and knowledge for free. Relevant articles.
Zakat - A Qur'anic Adaptation

Salat, Fasting, Zakat & Hajj according to God Alone.

The challenge a Muslim might face upon turning to God alone is the procedure for observing religious rites.

Hajj - Visit the holy site, engaging in remembrance & service to God. Relevant conditions spelt out in Qur'an.
Essential reading on hajj;
Hajj - A Qur'anic Adaptation

As of now, Raif remain in prison, international outcries for his release have been futile and attempts by the Canadian authorities to obtain his release in 2018 was met with fierce reaction from Saudi Authorities - severing all ties between Saudi Arabia and Canada.

In the imprisonment of Raif Badawi and Aasia Bibi under sharia, we see violation of the Qur'anic verses I've cited. There is enough evidence in Qur'an to establish freedom of speech, but only those Muslims appreciative of freedom of speech will notice and regard such verses.

Victims Of Freedom of Speech Violation - Raif Badawi

Raif Badawi is a Saudi Muslim apostate or secular Muslim who ran a blog promoting secular democracy, condemning sharia and the Islamic right wing of Saudi Arabia. For his blogs, Raif was arrested, tried and sentenced to 10 years in prison with 1000 lashes in 2012.

Raif's supportive wife and kids had to seek asylum in Canada afterwards, where she has been campaigning for his release. While Raif's defense attorney, Waleed Abdulkhair , was later arrested and imprisoned for opposing sharia and promoting human rights.

Continue below

I resolved now that Qur'an can't bear scientific facts not discerned, incomprehensible and unverifiable by the primary audience - the early Arabs. The Qur'an states that it is clear and explained in details.

tinting: The funny thing is, I used to believe in this nonsense when I was a muslim. "Scientific miracles of the Quran".

I know, right? I decided to double check the miracles recently when I started reading mythologies of the Greeks, Vikings and Sumerians, finding myths clearly analogous to scientific facts today - like the clay origin of man or big bang theory or the heavenly origin of iron.

I started to wonder why these scientific miracle remain unheard of, until new theories emerge from the scientific community. How would complex facts like Blackholes or Solar Apex be revealed in Qur'an, neglecting simpler ones like the earth shape?

Chapter 5 - Miracles of Re-interpretation

tru2god: Then why are Muslims always trying to authenticate Islam using science?

Because they are brainwashed. In recent years, the Qur'an is being over-hyped as a deposit of undiscovered scientific facts. Numerous Muslim outlets do exists, dedicated to mining out these scientific facts from the Qur'an and publishing them as scientific miracles of Qur'an.

The publications on the purported scientific miracles of Qur'an can be convincing, especially for those who know only little Arabic, Science and History. Awed by the convoluted heap of exposition they read, they too begin to parrot the purported miracles.