₦airaland Forum

Thank you both(Ifeann & BabaGnoni), am actually glad you enjoyed the documentary. An important fact left out of it is the protection and support the Islamists enjoy from the western government/politicians like Obama, western leftists and mainstream media, all thanks to multiculturalism and political correctness. This sabotage the effort of the reform minded Muslims willing to integrate and defend western values like freedom, tolerance and secularism.

We can understand this clearer by considering this forum. The Admin has not only given an entire section to Muslims but empowered Islamofascists, supremacist and militant Muslims to moderate and dominate the section, such that moderate, secular Muslims like me can't air their views, let alone non-Muslims. Only Muslims are permitted to post there and even then, only mainstream or orthodox teachings are tolerated in Islam section.

Still, the Admin continue to feed Islamofascists in this forum by authorizing them to censor topics even in Religion or Politics section. Ifeann, that is why your topic was deleted.

Not all Muslims are Islamists but an alarming fraction are. Any Muslim with a supremacist, absolutist and militant position on Islam is an Islamist even if he campaigns against Boko Haram. Islamists are wolves in sheep clothing, parasitizes on Islam and have a very twisted, demented and devious vision for the world. The earlier people like the Admin of this forum realizes that, the better.

Ifeann:
This is exactly why u are my favorite Muslim and one day hopefully a brother in Christ. . .

I will repost again after it is watered down. .i don't want to offend anyone. .

i was discussing with a muslim on nairaland, i think empiree or abuaman i can't recall and i posted something u said about the hadiths and asked why they attack you for your stance . .the Muslim says u are not a real Muslim and added some other choice insults. ..i don't know if you have seen the thread.

Hmm.... I cannot expect anything less from such individuals who lack a sense of right and wrong. I expose the self-righteousness, deceit and ignorance within them, most times they had no logical response and cowardly resort to insults, banning me and deleting my threads. They basically escaped from me.

why are Muslims so anti critical thinking, freedom of expression and objective reasoning? ? Why do they attack any opposition to the status quo.. even if it is clearly ridiculous. .don't they know that Islam will be less of a laughing stock without the hadiths.

It is called ego. They have been brought up with a militant, irrational and supremacist understanding of their religion and therefore objectivity, rationality and freedom of expression have no place in their mindset. That is why they find it wrong for Christians to kill apostates but justify Muslims killing apostates. There is a battle for Islam among between such Muslims and Reform minded Muslims like me. Here is a brilliant documentary that captures it;


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A0ZECSUg8iY

Ifeann:
I posted it here in the general religion section. .. i have NEVER posted any thing in the Islam for Muslim section. ..

The thread was a simple and blunt article i wrote on the issues with islam and the vast differences between the teachings of Jesus and Mohammed which should compel any human with a conscience to leave Islam. Some people asked for it to be posted to the fp while Muslims insulted. In the end fear got the better of the mods. ..

I will dilute the article and repost soon. ..
Hope you are having a nice weekend. .

Thanks, am doing good. Should you re-post it, i have your back. On no account should a secular forum like this be censored by religious supremacists. Whoever is sick of your criticisms should not view your thread.

Peace to all.

I want to present the leading Shari'ah book in Shafi school of law, Sunni(mainstream) Islam: RELIANCE OF THE TRAVELLER. I am a Muslim who from an Islamic, moral or rational view point oppose Shari'ah as outlined in orthodox/mainstream Islam. Here are extracts from the Book:

08.1 When a person who has reached puberty and is sane voluntarily apostatizes from Islam, he deserves to be killed.

oX.4 There is no indemnity for killing an apostate (0: or any expiation, since it is killing someone who deserves to die).

09.13 In Jihad, when a child or a woman is taken captive, they become slaves by the fact of capture, and the woman's previous marriage is immediately annulled.

09.15 It is permissible in jihad to cut down the enemy's trees and destroy their dwellings.

If you are a Muslim who believe in establishing of Shari'ah state, you may want to reconsider your position. Shari'ah is anti-Islam, not Islam. A secular democracy like Canada is closer to Islam than a typical Shari'ah state. If you are a non-Muslim out there who believe that in line with religious freedom and tolerance, Shar'ah deserves a place in the society, you may want to study Shari'ah better instead of playing ''NICE GUY''.

In three lengthy papers, i have covered Shari'ah, exposing some of the unholy and ugly sides of this law which the clergy, scholars and apologist Muslims won't tell you or the non-Muslims.

Shari'ah: The Great Brain Robbery
Dealt with criminal law including amputation for theft, stoning for adultery and execution for apostasy.

Shari'ah II: Phantom Heaven
Covered Civil matters like divorce, inheritance; Religious coercion and Blasphemy.

Shari'ah III: War!
An exposition on Jihad, Slavery and "Jizya" under mainstream Shari'ah.

And most importantly, here is the link to download Reliance Of The Traveller, Shari'ah directly from the horse 's mouth. No apologetics, no sentiments, no lies. Every truthseeker on Islam must own this or the like.

http://www.islamicbulletin.org/free_downloads/resources/reliance2_complete.pdf

AltarBoy1:
you find nothing wrong or its not wrong according to your teaching.? Wch one.

It is not wrong according to Islamic teachings. Any more question?

AltarBoy1:
For quite a very long time, my muslims friends have always maintained that muslim women are not allowed to post their pix on social media... But how come, buhari's daugther is spreading her pix all over twitter or is her own brand of islam different frm that of my friends...

That is your Muslim' friends understanding of Islam. Some Muslims out there will disagree with your friend even on a theological ground. Am a Muslim and i find nothing wrong with women posting their pics online as men do.

Ifeann:
Back to the point. .no God but God is so vague in all respects. .. when u accept Christ u have to profess it. .When u accept Islam u have to say the hadith approved shahadda. . And that makes sense. .

Islam is not a monolithic or supremacist religion. While in our society, to be a Muslim is to believe in Muhammad and Qur'an, this is false from the Qur'anic perspective. Here are some verses;

Qur'an 2: 62
Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the f Christians, and the Sabians, whoever believes in God and the Last day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord, and there is no fear for them, nor shall they grieve.

As such, you don't need to believe and testify to Muhammad to be a Muslim. Islam is a God centric system, not God + Muhammad. There is no verse throughout the Quran where "....and Muhammad is His messenger" is attached to "No god but God", the official testimony of Islam. The mainstream Muslim shahadah is a Muslim innovation, an heresy when judged from the Quranic angle.

i don't understand why u reject the hadith when at least 90 percent of Muslims revere commands and stories from it especially the sahih ones. .. can these Muslims all be wrong. .

I am not the only one rejecting Hadith, there are many Muslims who reject those traditions as an authority in Islam. Despite orthodoxy being the status quo, there have be Muslims who stood against canonization of Hadith right from time. The very existence of Hadith is a violation of Muhammad 's teachings and i can prove this even from Hadith books. I don't look at the position of majority, i look at facts. The mere approval of a product by majority doesn't accredit the product.

What kind of a god will allow such deciet to exist in his religion. ..

The Qur'an prophesied that Muslims will desert its message. So am not surprised at all. The Tanakh prophesied that the Isrealites will desert it and the Gospel prophesy that many will be rejected by Jesus on the last day. Now, i hope you get why the majority is not always right.

Ifeann:
Wow. ..usermane you are no longer making fact based statements.... orthodox christains still cling to their traditions, with the exception of Anglicans. .. but they aren't really orthodox...

Here let me remind you about the current statistics of christains that u said i got wrong. ..

Catholic Church - 1,166[1]−1,229 million
Latin Church - 1,149 million
Catholic Charismatic Renewal - 160 million[2]
Society of St. Pius X - 0.5 million[3]
Personal Ordinariate for former Anglicans - 0.005 million
Eastern Catholic Churches - 17 million
Alexandrian Rite
Ethiopian Catholic Church - 0.2 million[4]
Coptic Catholic Church - 0.2 million[4]
Antiochene Rite
Maronite Catholic Church - 3.1 million[4]
Syro-Malankara Catholic Church - 0.4 million[4]
Syriac Catholic Church - 0.1 million[4]
Armenian Rite
Armenian Catholic Church - 0.4 million[4]
Chaldean Rite
Syro-Malabar Catholic Church - 3.8 million[4]
Chaldean Catholic Church - 0.4 million[4]
Byzantine Rite
Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church - 4.3 million[4]
Melkite Greek Catholic Church - 1.3 million[4]
Romanian Catholic Church - 0.7 million[4]
Ruthenian Catholic Church - 0.5 million[4]
Hungarian Greek Catholic Church - 0.3 million[4]
Slovak Greek Catholic Church - 0.2 million[4]
Italo-Albanian Catholic Church - 0.1 million[4]
Belarusian Greek Catholic Church - 0.1 million[4]
Georgian Byzantine Catholic Church - 0.01 million[5]
Albanian Byzantine Catholic Church - 0.01 million[4]
Bulgarian Greek Catholic Church - 0.01 million[4]
Croatian Greek Catholic Church - 0.01 million[4]
Greek Byzantine Catholic Church - 0.01 million[4]
Macedonian Greek Catholic Church - 0.01 million[4]
Russian Greek Catholic Church - 0.01 million[4]
Breakaway Catholic Churches - 28 million[6]
Philippine Independent Church - 6 million[7]
Chinese Patriotic Catholic Association - 5 million[8]
Brazilian Catholic Apostolic Church - 5 million[9]
Apostolic Catholic Church - 5 million
Old Catholic Church - 0.6 million
Polish National Catholic Church - 0.025 million
Protestantism - 800 million.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_denominations_by_number_of_members



Here read this also, it is beautiful written and very objective .

http://www.pewforum.org/2011/12/19/global-christianity-exec/

It turn out that Wikipedia confirms my estimate. Didn't i say that orthodox Christians are a minority today compared to the past? Given that Protestanism is a recent movement, decades from now, it will topple Catholicism which along with orthodox Christianity is not as rooted in traditions as in the past. Look at their nations today, secularized and democratized. This isn't the case with orthodox Muslims who carry their tradition up to national level.

Empiree:
Tashahud:



peace upon you o prophet

shirk?....seriously? something wrong with you

Thank you for the time, Empiree. If you had read the works i recommended in my response to Hkana, you would have been asking a different question. Repeatedly asking this same question mean you don't do your homework. Thanks, but no thanks.

Peace

^^^^
Stop obscuring the point, Mister. You know the salah/darood you recite on the Prophet particularly during tashahood or duas.

Any one who has discussed so far with me on this issue know the 'salah' am talking.

[At- Tirmidhi, Hasan Al- Albani]: “Duaa is suspended between heaven and earth and none of it is taken up until you send blessings upon your Prophet.”

[quote][/quote]

Ifeann:
Why is it unsafe to discuss about the religion of "peace".. why all the threats about fatwas..And insults from Muslims. this is terrible. . Freedom of expression on islam is dead. But its only for a time..The truth will always prevail.

Hi! Where did you post it, on this section or Islam section? I hope Islam section agents have not started pulling the strings on censorship in this section again?

Empiree:
Wrong! Qur'an revolves eternally.

Isn't it better to ask questions if you do not understand than jumping into conclusion? Are the following verses applicable in our time, do these verses address us as the direct subjects:

33:30 O wives of the prophet, if any of you commits a gross sin, the retribution will be doubled for her. This is easy for GOD to do.

33:53 O you who believe, do not enter the homes of the prophet unless you are invited to a meal, without you forcing such an invitation. But if you are invited, you may enter. And when you finish eating, you shall leave, without staying to wait for a narrative. This used to bother the prophet, and he was shy to tell you. But God does not shy away from the truth. And if you ask his wives for something, ask them from behind a barrier. This is purer for your hearts and their hearts. And it is not for you to harm the messenger of God, nor that you should marry his wives after him. This is indeed a gross offence with God.

33:9 O you who acknowledge, remember God's favor upon you when soldiers attacked you and We sent upon them a wind and invisible soldiers. God is Seer of everything you do.

9:1 This is an ultimatum from God and His messenger to those who set up partners with whom you had entered a treaty.

49:2 O you who acknowledge, do not raise your voices above the voice of the prophet, nor shall you speak loudly at him as you would speak loudly to each other, lest your works become nullified while you do not perceive.

Of all people, you shouldn't b d one telling us that Qur'an revolves eternally, after your sunni scholars teach that hundreds of verses in the Quran have been abrogated and no more applicable today. You contradict your own scholars and ideology.

Lastly, am done on this issue. Salawat is all about invoking Muhammad, since you believe he hears your salawat and responds to you. It is polytheism. You can brag about tawhid as much as you want.

Empiree:
Here, you still repeating and agreeing with mainstream. You dont have alternative.



Okay. "Support" not much of a problem for me. Question is prophet is no longer with us presently. How do we support him now according to you?.

That 's it, the Prophet is dead, we can't can't support him in the context of these verses any more. There are several verses of this chapter which is no longer applicable today. That 's my understanding.

^^^^^^
You either didn't read the articles i recommended in my previous post or you read them without digesting them. The alternative meaning of "sallu" and "taslim" which you translate as ''send greetings" and "salute'' in this verse is ''reach out for(as in support)'' and ''regard'' respectively.

The former verses(53, 54 & 55) specified regulations on believers for the ease and sake of the Prophet. Complying with such regulations is what the 56th verse emphasizes as "sallu"(support) for the messenger.

33:56 GOD and His angels help and support the prophet. O you who believe, you shall help and support him, and regard him as he should be regarded

I translate and interpret in line with context. This verse urges Muslims to support the Prophet as God and his angels do for both Muslims and the Prophet.

There are those who 'd rather oppose or distress the messenger instead of supporting him, for instance, by not observing these regulations. The next verses address them.

33:57 Surely those who harm God and His messenger, God will curse them in this life and in the Hereafter; and He has prepared for them a shameful retribution.
33:58 Those who harm the believing men and the believing women, who did not do anything wrong, have committed not only a falsehood, but also a gross sin.

I don't get the point of 'salawat' in the whole context. The verses before and after verse 56 cannot be related with 'salawat' at all.

Hkana:
Usermane, what's the issue you have with salah on the Rasul (Sallallahu alaihi wa ahlihi was salam)?

First, i believe there is a distortion of Qur'an 33:56 in mainstream Islamic teachings. "Salah" as used in that verse is not exclusive to the Prophet alone throughout the Qur'an. Qur'an 33:43 and 2:157, 9:103 tells that "salah" is also done for believers by God and the Prophet was instructed to do the same for believers. 'Tasleem' also is not exclusive to greetings in Arabic, see Qur'an 4:65. When all the verses are cross-referenced with each other, we find that the orthodox interpretation of Qur'an 33:56 cannot be reconciled with the other verses where the same phrases are used with reversed roles. Learn more; http://www.quran-islam.org/main_topics/misinterpreted_verses/corruption_of_33:56_%28P1243%29.html

Aside that, i discussed my main issue with the ulama teachings on Salah on the Prophet here; https://www.nairaland.com/2112171/undercover-polytheism. Scroll down the thread and read it under the sub-heading; Invocation. Sending salah on the Prophet as endorsed by mainstream Islam is basically invoking Muhammad, taking him as mediator between man and God which is polytheistic, no different from what pre-Islamic Arabs were condemned for by the Qur'an.

Empiree:
Waste of time. At the time of the prophet (Allah's blessing be upon him and his household), there were differences, but they were called Muslims. Some of them even worst past you.

You better be careful what you wish for. Allah named us Muslims (al-Hajj 22:78). Your spurious excuses are pretty much irrelevant. Or let's say you are just bored. Just need attention. Fair enough?.

If you were candid, you would have translated the word "Muslim" like any other word in that verse. Did Jesus and his disciples, Abraham and his sons identify themselves with the word; "Muslim"?

Do you know better than those before us?. Great ulama like Sheik Ahmad Tijjani, Sheikul-Islam Ibn Tayyimiyah, Sheik Abdul Qudir Jilani or 20th century Shuyuk(p), sheik Adam Abdullah Al-ilory, sheik Kamaldeen Adabiy etc. You know better than these people?. We follow their footsteps even though we can not strive the way they did.

Do you know better than the Popes of Catholicism? Ibn Tamiyyah whom you mention didn't practice taqlid(sheer compliance of scholars) like you.

Just because you are intellectually deficient (no offense intended) in comprehending salaawat, 'salah' on the prophet doesn't mean we Muslims are polytheists. Quran is healing for disease in the heart.

So much, so much for Tawhid.

For the disease to be cured, you first of need to submit to what Allah revealed to His messanger whether you understand it or not...understanding comes later.

Yeah, i see. That is why you believe fables like Muhammad splited the moon, half of which landed in Ali 's yard and accept injustice like death for apostates

Swallow your pride of "i know it all". It's after that Quran will penetrates your heart. Otherwise, same Quran can be your major obstacle.

Allah says:



^That's why you keep getting confused. Everything is Muslim even animals and trees.

So long, my friend. So long

ayinba1:
You have never identified yourself as a Muslim. And I doubt that anyone is compelling you to. I asked you a direct question on the main Religion forum. Even unbelievers are proving to be more straightforward than you. You must have a designation but I did not get a Yes or No answer to this one important question.

On the thread you asked me that question, i had defended Islam by correcting certain myth and distortions about Qur'anic teachings. No non-Muslim will take the pain to do that. Merely reading my posts would have answered your question but somehow it didn't.

Are you a muslim?

.....Yes!!!

Is not God enough for his Servant? But they try to frighten thee with other besides Him! for whoever God leaves to stray, there can be no guide.

[quote author=Quran 4:48]Indeed, Allah does not forgive association with Him, but He forgives what is less than that for whom He wills. And he who associates others with Allah has certainly commited a tremendous sin.[/quote]Stop sheer compliance with saints or sages and adopt independent thought and analysis. Read Chapter 39 of the Qur'an, it deals thoroughly with features of polytheism in several verses like 3, 43, 45. Get a less orthodox translation like "Monotheist Translation" or "Reformist Translation" available on google in PDF for free.

Peace and Have Faith.

Here, we have it that Muhammad is the mediator between man and God, for supplications cannot proceed to God without greetings from the supplicant to Muhammad and his response to it. The implication is that Muhammad 's response confirms the supplicant, enabling the supplication to proceed through Heavens to God. Muhammad 's role as a mediator invariably renders him a partner of God, an idol and this is the severest form of undercover polytheism.



Are you shocked to learn this? After the conquer of Makkah by the Muslims, most of the Arab polytheist embraced Islam for political reason but the seed of polytheism remained within them. Forced to give up their gods for one omnipotent being, the carved the messenger of God into their new idol or partner with God. The historic Arab polytheists didn't believe supplications from man could reach God directly, they too had gods to serve as mediator to God. They invoked these idols hoping to draw themselves closer to God. We can see how the same belief or doctrines have crept into Islam via human traditions(Hadith) deceptively attributed to God.


[quote author=Quran 39:3]Is it not to God that religion is due? But those who take for partners other than God (say): "We only serve them in order that they may bring us nearer to God." Truly God will judge between them in that wherein they differ. But God guides not such as are false and ungrateful.[/quote][quote author=Quran 34:22]Say: "Call upon those whom ye set up beside God! They possess not an atom's weight either in the heavens or in the earth, nor have they any share in either, nor hath He an helper among them."[/quote]

As stated in the above tradition, the supplication never reaches God, untill the supplicant sends his greetings to Muhammad.

Here is the main problem, the clergy also teach that Muhammad hears and respond to this greeting from wherever the supplicant is!

[quote author=Abu Dawood, Saheeh Al- Albani]Abu Hurayrah (May Allah be pleased with him) reported: The Messenger of Allah sal Allahu alayhi wa sallam said, “There is not one of you who sends his greetings upon me except that Allah returns the soul to my body (in the grave) and I return his greeting.”[/quote]To invoke a god, spirit or dead is to speak or address them verbally in expectation of their hearing and response to you. In a nutshell, sending greetings to Muhammad according to orthodox teachings is basically invoking Muhammad!!!

Invocation

[quote author=Quran 17:56]Say, "Invoke whatever idols you have set up beside Him." They have no power to relieve your afflictions, nor can they prevent them.[/quote]I have discussed these issues with Muslims in the past, not because i have a thing for religious argument but because i often get confronted by these Muslims over my approached to certain Islamic matters like salaat. In the end they maintain that they never invoke anyone besides God in their rites.

How true is that?

Orthodox Muslim clergy teach that supplication to God without greetings to Muhammad is null. They teach that when a Muslim supplicates, his supplication is first suspended mid-way between Heaven and Earth.

[quote author=[At- Tirmidhi, Hasan Al- Albani]“Duaa is suspended between heaven and earth and none of it is taken up until you send blessings upon your Prophet.”[/quote]

Customarily, Muslim pilgrims visit this mosque after their pilgrimage to Makkah, where they sanctify and venerate the tombs within it, particularly Muhammad 's tomb. They stand before this tomb addressing the Prophet as if he could hear and respond to them. Starting by greeting, saluting and praising him, then invoking for his intercession on the last day and supplicating to God. Some pilgrims even go further than this. An area in the mosque that formerly spans from Muhammad 's house to his pulpit is also venerated above other areas as paradise on earth. To learn more, see; Etiquette of Visiting Muhammad 's Tomb

There is just one holy site in Islam; the Mosque in Makkah. Even here, no area or object is accrued divine power in the scripture. Decades after the Prophet it was the so-called Muslims who began to idolize these sites and object. Of course, they claim to intend no more than respect Muhammad but none of them will be pleased to have a Muslim visit Makkah without visiting Medina where Muhammad 's tomb will be invariably venerated.

Given that the objective of the pilgrimage is focus on God, one is left wondering why a genuine monotheist will engage in rites that entails veneration and sanctification of other figures upon completing the pilgrimage.

[quote author=Qur'an 13:14]To Him is prayer in Truth: any others that they call upon besides Him hear them no more than if they were to stretch forth their hands for water to reach their mouths but it reaches them not: for the prayer of those without Faith is nothing but wandering.[/quote]

D. Veneration and Consecration

[quote author=Quran 7:197]They on whom ye call beside Him have no power to help you, nor can they help you, nor can they help themselves.[/quote]In the realm of polytheism, sanctification of tombs, altars or shrines is customary. Hoping to expiate their sins, purify their souls or earn bountiful reward from God, polytheists visit and venerate these centres, deemed noble or sacred. All such beliefs and practices have no place in pristine Islam but those who couldn't grasp the concept of monotheism introduced them into Islam as can be observed today.

Pilgrimage

The second holiest site of orthodox Islam is the "The Mosque of the Prophet" in Medina, Saudi Arabia. The Mosque originally built by pioneer Muslims was numerous times smaller than it is today. Subsequent expansion by Arab emperors incorporated the Muhammad 's house site and tomb into the mosque, with a dome erected over the tomb. There are several other tombs in this mosque.

Hence, there is no big deal about intercession, non is assured the right to interceed and non will find it beneficial either. Hence, there is no place for intercession or intercessors in genuine monotheism.

In this area, the difference between historical Arab religion and mainstream/orthodox Muslim creed is that the former endorsed several beings like angels, spirits and dieties as intercessors while the latter mainly endorse Muhammad. Aside Muhammad, saints and sages are accorded power of intercession by minor Muslim sects.

We tend to conclude that belief in the last day is just belief in ressurection. If so, why did God condemn the historic Arab as polytheists and deniers of the last day when their admission of intercession should simply pass of as belief in the last day?

Basically, belief in intercession or intercessors on the last day is disbelief in the last day which God reiterate will not involve intercessors. The end result is idolization of these intercessors and undercover polytheism.

[quote author=Quran 10:18]They serve, besides God, things that hurt them not nor profit them, and they say: "These are our intercessors with God." Say: "Do ye indeed inform Allah of something He knows not, in the heavens or on earth?- Glory to Him! and far is He above the partners they ascribe!"[/quote]

C. Intercession

[quote author=Quran 39:43]Have they taken others as intercessors besides God? Say: "Even if they have power over nothing whatever and have no intelligence?"[/quote]Most orthodox Muslims are of the belief that Muhammad will intercede for Muslims as spelt out in their traditions. The tradition even goes further to guarantee power of intercession to individuals that complete certain tasks like memorizing the entire Arabic Quran. Though, a number of verses in the Qur'an tells that permission for intercession will be granted to those God is pleased with on the last day, several verses indicate that intercession will not be useful to anyone. Those who did not pass God 's test before death will have no one on the last day, so God rules that man must strive for himself.

[quote author=Quran 19:87]None shall have the power of intercession, but such a one as has received permission from Most Gracious.[/quote][quote author=Quran 2:48]Then guard yourselves against a day when one soul shall not avail another nor shall intercession be accepted for her, nor shall compensation be taken from her, nor shall anyone be helped.[/quote][quote author=Quran 6:51]And warn by it(Qur'an) those who fear that they will be gathered before their Lord - for them besides Him will be no protector and no intercessor - that they might become righteous[/quote]

B. Relious rulings from other than God

[quote author=Qur'an 42:21]Or have they partners who have prescribed for them in religion that which God prescribed not?
And but for a decisive word, it would have been judged between them. Lo! for wrong-doers is a painful doom.[/quote]As the historic Arab polytheists wouldn't understand that every religious rule had to be from God, in the name of their idols, they did keep rules which God did not fix. Of course, they attributed these rules to God, afterall they believed their idols rule on authority of God. Similarly, God is not the only ruler or legislator in the ideology of mainstream Islam. Traditional clergy differentiate "Obey God" from "Obey messenger", holding that God decrees and His messenger also decrees. Indirectly Muhammad is set on virtually the same level with God, where he not only expand God 's law but over rule or abrogate them.


From my experience, the defence by the clergy over their position is that the messenger decrees on inspiration from God. However, this defense is no more convincing than the defense of the historic Arab polytheists;

[quote author=Quran 16:35]Those who associate partners say: "If God had so willed, we would not have served anyone but Him - neither we nor our fathers,- nor should we have prescribed prohibitions other than His." So did those who went before them. But what is the mission of messengers but to preach the Clear Message?[/quote]

Ifeann: I have studied several teachings of the quran and hadiths...a lot of it entirely contradicts the treaching of Christ. .. this has lead me and every bible reading christain to conclude the god of Islam is not the true God we christains worship. .we can discuss examples of you want. .

^^^^
My post was in response to your question. You asked, 'if the testimony was merely "No God but God", which God is the Muslim testifying to?' I meant it is the God of the scripture the Muslim abide by that he is testifying.

Ifeann:
author=usermane



Please who told u most Christians reject the traditions of the Church, the Catholics, eastern othodox, oriental othodox , coptic etc all have similar practises on christain traditions that dates back to the apostles and together they make up to over 1 billion christains. .while protestants number to about 900million. The protestants (Sola scriptura adherents) are the ones who reject traditions and theyhave good reasons according to them and that is why we see herectics like the word of faith, Jehovah witnesses bending scripture and interpreting it to satisfy their greed as we see with prosperity preachers. Even past Catholics popes have been know to
Do this.. but reading the bible is clear no matter which christain group you choose.

Your estimate is not correct. Orthodox Christians made up majority of Christendom in the middle ages, i don't need to remind you of the atrocities that were commited in the name of Jesus or the Church. Majority of the Christians today are protestant, unorthodox. Even the orthodox Christians don't even cling top their traditions as their ancestors did or as orthodox Muslims cling to theirs.

Please which historical analysis refutes the slaughter.

I focus on the issues with the hadiths and quran. .. it is not all evil. . Mohammed did say some nice things when he was a warner in mecca before he turned to a warrior in Medina. . If u Muslims choose to belive in the stories of his alleged miracles and contradictthe quran thats their cupof tea.. even the quran said Allah will provide no miracles. ..

So you reject the traditions concerning Muhammad 's miracle in favor of the Qur'an. That Hadith is an authentic Hadith, remember? I reject those Hadith that reported Muhammad attacked peaceful people, enslaved women and children because the Quranic teachings doesn't confirm it.

By the way, here is a message for you; A Bloody Lie: Massacre of Banu Qurayza Jews

Ifeann:
Please give evidence of this from the verses in your quran... where does it say pray 5 times in the quran..just for clarity purposes.

Qur'an 24:58, 17:78, 11:114, 2:138

I tend toagree with you on this point however 80 to 90 percent of the Muslim on earth follow the hadith on this.
Why is the overwhelming majority not making this argument for the quran.

Because, they don't believe Qur'an is the complete word of God

Sorry if i quoted a wrong number for a verse. . I try to be as accurate as possible. . But mistakes do happen. .
Yes the quran says it is clear etc but why is it so easily and often misunderstood... why arethere claims of misinterpretation and so many scholar conflicting with each other on interpretations and abrogations. . Why all these talk of exegesis and re interpretations..i have even had Muslims here in nairaland use a verse in 2 opposing interpretation and meaning to defend their argument. .

hapharzad reading, bias mindset, deliberate distortion of Arabic terms, hasty conclusions are the cause of varying interpretation despite Qur'an states it is clear.

I still stand by what i said and what several Islamic scholars say. .. the quran had little information on Mohammed. .. their is no way to understand his character by reading the quran alone. . The Muslims often claim that excellent work was done in compiling the hadiths on scales of authenticity. And why would Allah allow the hadiths be compromised and used to redicule his religion if he is all knowing like Muslims claim. . We see no such problems with christainity. .

I believe Muhammad got his examples from Qur'anic teachings, so far that is the only document he left behind. It is the true source of his examples

No god but God. .. wow. .. so this is all one had to say? ? Which god will the person be talking about. .. the god worshiped by the Hindus , Egyptians, cannanites etc, it's the hadith that let's you know its the one Mohammed claimed to serve. .

The God of the scripture you abide by.

Against The Grain

One reason why i have a hard time identifying myself with the word "Muslim" is that i find the creed of mainstream Muslims too contrary to the teachings of the scriptures. In a world where the clergymen and jurists define the Muslim creed, i rise against the grain.

See more at; https://www.nairaland.com/2112171/undercover-polytheism#30112793