₦airaland Forum

Thank you for following my counsel, watch brains at work from the sidelines.

PS: Jeering is allowed. Cheering too

Bidam:
Yeeepa! You nailed it. I thought as much, this debate is actually helping the poor fellow to believe scriptures and have a change of perspective.

my brother,
your argument is fatally flawed
In 1 Corinthians, Paul CORRECTED the abuse of spiritual gifts by teaching them the right way not discarding the gifts.
In Acts 15,if the error was in attaching circumcision to salvation, then the correction should have entailed restoring circumcision to its rightful place. The Holy Spirit called circumcision and the rest of Torah a BURDEN totally unnecessary for the Gentiles.
Later, Paul would ONLY circumcise when pressured by the Circumcision group.

I have noticed you claim that circumcision has some merits such as 'identifying with the covenant'. I asked you to explain whether an uncircumcised Christian who does not 'identify with the covenant' is missing anything. Please do tell us what circumcision is necessary for if at all

Gombs:
[size=4pt]I'm gonna say this once...the Jerusalem council DID NOT cancel the out the necessity of circumcision and tithing. What they did was that they decided that Gentile converts to Christianity were not obligated to keep most of the Law of Moses, including the rules concerning circumcision of males.

Now, neither circumcision nor tithing has their inception in the Laws of Moses. And they were not obligated to keep most of the law because certain individuals came down from Judea and were teaching the brothers, "Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved " . The council was prompt to debunk that. Same as I have been schooling you that circumcision NEVER made one righteous. [/size]They never as you claimed said tithing and circumcision were not necessary, they said circumcision was not necessary for righteousness. [size=4pt]Abraham was declared righteous by faith even before circumcision.

The Council did, however, retain the prohibitions on eating blood, meat containing blood, and meat of animals not properly slain, and on fornication and idolatry, sometimes referred to as the Apostolic Decree orJerusalem Quadrilateral.

As you can see from above, the Law was not completely abolished, a fact mba, Joagbaje me, bidam has been teaching here for ages. Goshen360 the confused grace preacher never seem to comprehend this.[/size]

The MoGs teach something totally ALIEN to scriptures; they invoke scriptures that talk about 22% to exact 10% from you and make you believe you have earned protection from the devourer. It is ignorance that makes them do so not absence of greed.

It is true there are three covenants ignoring Noah's which was more God-sided. Tithing was no part of the Abrahamic covenant any more than keeping concubines and slaves. These are things done under the covenant not parts of it

These are your favorite circular arguments. Tithing was not deemed unnecessary because the Levites and consequently Jewish Christians never demanded the same from Gentiles. Equally, Feasts,child dedication and turtledoves & Nazirite vows & uncleanness of women during their periods were never termed unnecessary because ONLY Jews did these. Jews were bound by these dregs of the Torah probably until 70 AD when the temple was destroyed.

This is what I told Gombs is Reductio ad Absurdum. It is absurd to CLING to EVERYTHING that was not deemed unnecessary.

How do you explain TOTAL absence of tithing principles invoked when giving exhortations were given?
Conjecture: The Jewish Christians and proselytes, do you think they gave their tithes to the Levites or to the apostles?

mbaemeka:
To make this your 'hard business' quips to make sense then the MOG that teach on tithes are not as greedy as you claim. Why, because they could have insisted on the 22% as stipulated by the law, yet they settled for a meagre 10%.

I can see how we have jumped from explaining Tithes pre-Mosaic to now asking for a distinction between freewill giving and tithes in the NT. Let me just chip in that there are actually 3 covenants in the bible:

Abrahamic covenant
Mosaic/ Old covenant
Christ/New covenant.

The one that was ABOLISHED is the OLD or Mosaic one. The Abrahamic one gave birth to the NEW one. So we can draw parallels between those covenants while we do away with the aspects that the NT expressly stated were now unnecessary.

Tithing was NEVER termed unnecessary again. I mean the one that Abraham did and he offered 10%. If anyone wants to tithe he MUST give atleast 10%. That's why it is called a tithe.

If you believe the contrary then provide one NT verse that lumps freewill offerings and tithes into one. Meanwhile Hebrews 7:7-8. Care to expound?

poor fallible Paul. Who told him there is purposing in your heart? it is God's property id!ot

There is ZERO distinction between freewill and mandatory offering in the NT. Those are 500 years late imports from the OT.

Tithing was hard business. This is the ONLY reason the Pharisee who managed to keep the Laws felt like somebody, had to remind God that he did it. I can picture him with a constipated grin, 'I am not like other men'. Made him feel special. A guy doing 22% in tithes feels special. Another doing a paltry 10% is actually a goD. Little wonder they fete the 'best givers'

mbaemeka:
This is a stand you have to take to make your stance on tithing worth its salt. There is TITHING and there is FREEWILL GIVING. There is no fixed % on the latter but the former means 10% or one-tenth. It basically defines itself.

If anyone wants to tithe he MUST not give less than 10% otherwise it is not a tithe. Whereas if anyone wants to give anything freewillingly then he is free to do so underzero compulsion.

How do you accuse children of childishness!

Image123:
I wasn't joking, don't assume vaguely.

My broda,
That was sarcasm but it is well.

It is dangerous to appeal to numbers to stall doctrinal examination. It is two-edged, it really motivates the good guys just as it does the deluded guys. use them for anything else like vanity cat fights but not to gauge the truth.

Don't just hope am well, buy me a 128GB iPhone 6+ and it shall be well with my soul for the day

PS: make it space gray

mbaemeka:
Bro, you're off your game today. Hope all is well. I explained to you why mentioning the numbers was necessary SOMETIMES and you admitted to it, so the only case you should be making is that the numbers were thrown about inappositely and you are yet to do so. What I mean is: Someone claimed to be making impact with his own thread and Gombs proved that he was not. When the issue was posed back at Gombs, he proved why he was making the said impact by providing his own numbers. That's in order.

If someone says your church isn't making any impact, what bible passage should he use to debate it? None man. All he has to do is to throw his numbers to buttress his claims while to rebutting the zero-impact claim tossed at him. Period.

I am sure you understand.

of course it was a typo. Those are the kind of jokes I can make do. Not mocking sick folk.

I have labored so hard in your life, I am entitled to your tithe this month. I will give you my paypal account shortly. Aight?

Bidam:
It was a typo error which i knew you guessed but wanted to play pranks, i am not interested in a logic which doesn't agree with bible sense. Pls refer to the beginning of the the debate i recommended the risperidone.

How do you claim that Reductio ad Absurdum is not found in the Bible? Please tell me it was a joke. You were unwinding after a long day right?

EDUCATE yourself on the progress of a debate and then contribute your two mites. Should this prove impossible, stay on the sidelines and watch brains at work

PS: it is REDUCTIO not reducdito. Of course it is nonsense, how can it make sense to you?

Bidam:
Was the debate not on tithe where you brought in animal sacrifice and circumcision and reducdito nonsense. Is that to hard for you?
Your preconceived opinion my broda which has no legs to stand. Go back and understand my posts, i asked you a question, you started quoting coveting scripture that has nothing to do with God but humans. God is not a man. You don't use such scripture and automatically say it applies to God when God never made it such.Such notions is a schizophrenic idea.

Or gay suicide bombers

ducii:
If the Male suicide bombers are rewarded with 72 virgins in Heaven, what is the reward for the female suicide bombers?

Take time and UNDERSTAND the flow of a debate before jumping in. Is that too hard for you?
I called your disease BUTTING INTO DEBATES IN IGNORANCE. You said I had schizophrenia severally and prescribed drugs. That is super sick. Those are people like you my brother. Pick intelligent insults that have nothing to do with the lame,maimed or sick. Rain on me 247, I can handle that. Am immune

Bidam:
Quit the utter nonsense, you said you never called me such, i highlighted where you did, so what's all this misleading misinformation you have against me which are nothing but your mere preconceived opinions BTW? I also made it clear what your problem was when i asked you a question and you started quoting irrelevancies.

Bidam:
It is well bro..here it is.

vooks:
This is the disease I was talking about; butting into discussions that have nothing to do with you WITHOUT understanding them.

Don't be mischievous by quoting half-truths to make us equal. I made it clear what your problem with.
Whenever you do that,
1. You disrupt a debate that had nothing to do with you
2. Waste my time in bringing you to speed to the subject
3.Waste other participants' time as they patiently wait for you to be brought to speed

Compare that with calling me schizophrenic out of blues and prescribing drugs. And worse is REPEATING the same after apologizing. It means your apology was mere lip service. You have even infected Gombs with the disease

Gombs still insist that physical circumcision is a means of identifying with the promise.
Circumcision has ZERO spiritual value to no Christian. Can he confirm that he stands by this?

Gombs:
We've said it here, physical circumcision only means you identify with the promises, but it does not make you righteous.

What is 'identifying with the promise'? Are the uncircumcised Christians disadvantaged in ANY way for not 'identifying with the promise'?

trustman:
Matters Arising


On the issue of circumcision I want to believe we're now in agreement that it is NOT a precondition for anything today for the Christian. 
[size=4pt]
That was what Romans 4 clearly explained. 
"9 Is this blessing then only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? We say that faith was counted to Abraham as righteousness.
10 How then was it counted to him? Was it before or after he had been circumcised? It was not after, but before he was circumcised.
11 He received the sign of circumcision as a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. The purpose was to make him the father of all who believe without being circumcised, so that righteousness would be counted to them as well,"

This agrees with the position at the Jerusalem Council. At that council  this was said about some of them: "But some believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees rose up and said, "It is necessary to circumcise them and to order them to keep the law of Moses." (Acts 15:9). 

At the end of the council the Apostles and others agreed through the Holy Spirit to this: "28 For it has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay on you no greater burden than these requirements:
29 that you abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols, and from blood, and from what has been strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well. Farewell."

That decision through the Holy Spirit cancelled any necessity for physical circumcision as a precondition for anything in the spiritual life of the Christian.  

That decision also cancelled the necessity for any other observance, such as TITHING, as a requirement under the spiritual life of the Christian.

In addition, there is NOWHERE in scripture that talks about nor recommend the so-called 'tithing by faith'. Not one.  So, trying to justify the necessity for tithing by such a name is a fallacy. [/size]

It is insensitivity to the diseased that is sickening not vooks falling ill

Bidam:
Gombs, who God has blessed no man can curse, i wonder why his paranoia.

AM guilty, profuse apologies my broda. I can't recall doing it but apologies nevertheless

Bidam:
Ok, my apologies then, but don't forget you are also guilty of the same thing you accuse me of, you once mentioned curing my disease in your post.

There is something sick about mocking diseased and the physically handicapped.

Gombs:
You acted like you were na! . Besides, he didn't curse you, why ar e you making a mountain outta a termite hill?

Why then should you curse a fellow believer with schizophrenia?
Don't do that again. Polish your jokes

Bidam:
No one in Christ is diseased.Get that and you are home free. I keep wondering why folks like you keep propagating a diseased false demonic gospel.

Don't unwind by mocking the diseased. Joking with diseases shows your insensitivity to plight of the sufferers. Image123 has the guts to joke about blindness with MarkMiwerds a physically blind man.

If you want to insult me all day, please do. But don't mock the underprivileged. That is a line I won't cross. You do it again and I will not respond to you. When your brains overheat from imbibing my God-given wisdom, and you want me to stop, just mock the diseased and I will stop right away

Bidam:
My brother, you are cured in Jesus name.Go and sin no more.Don't get paranoid over my jokes. It's a way to unwind and ease off the stress. I noticed you take my post too seriously for your comfort.

Gombs my broda,
There is one one NT rule for giving; as you purpose in your heart & without compulsion.

An externally set fraction of giving goes against the 'as you purpose' aspect of giving

I would encourage the 10% giver equally to the 5%,15%,30% giver or the no-percentage-nonsense giver equally.

Pious fraudsters fear that the NT standards may not rake in enough. They set fractions robbing you of the freedom of choice. They also compel you by dangling utopia called financial breakthroughs,disease-free bliss,debt cancellation and they go as far as threatening you with hellfire. Calling you robber and invoking curse they won't hesitate.

These threads have just done that; taking deluded sheeple through Bible study so they can regain their freedom to give and get immunized from compulsion. Gloooooooooory

No they should not. Why would you discourage tithing? You should,if anything, try to understand their motivation.

If I told you am selling all my properties and giving it to your church, would you as my pastor not be interested to know why am doing it? What if I told you am selling all because the Lord is coming back in the next 6 months? Would you take it?

Gombs:
No, they can't!

My turn! Should one encourage a Christian to stop tithing? If yes, why?

You need deliverance from Hollywood

Can one catch diseases from non-payment of first fruits?

Gombs:
Bring it on, old sport!

It's a shame that modern pharisee parade their works of 10% which is supposed to be based on the Jew's 22%. They have nothing on the Pharisee who is 'not like other men', but they readily beat him in pride

hi my brother,
Apparently we have grownups who can read and write over here. Glooooooory

Bidam:
Here come the pied piper, i can see you have followers in the name of dorox and nep2ra, i will soon free them from your delusions. It's a matter of time.

What has that got to do with ANYTHING?

LambanoPeace:
He asked for your experience in soul winning and strategies, guess what your answers were? You have none, there is/are no shame in admitting. Good morning

Gombs,
You have exceeded your goD Oyaks in impact no debate about that
Now that we have done away with BS, let's talk doctrine

PS: Don't stoop low enough to mock the diseased. Bidam is allowed, you are too polished and intelligent for that

Don't get yourself worked up over nothing. Mine was a polite reminder. If you noted, Joagbaje made the dare on a thread that had nothing to do with him. I find it more appropriate reminding him of his 500k obligation on a thread made for him.

Processor01:
I am so disappointed with Pastor Kun and Voks! - What exactly is wrong with you guys?! Didn't your bible teach you that there's a time for everything? Do you guys think we are on nairaland to pick fights and make enemies of each other? Where is your love or are you just about bible knowledge with no fruits? Common guys, how dare you walk into a man's party only to insult him before his guests - you could have clicked on the next topic or simply shutdown your phone or PC! Haba guys! You could have gone into your closet to pray for him to be changed, or what exactly is your goal?

FYI, I am an anti-tither too!

Some ignorance is congenial.

nep2ra:
So for your mind now, you don yarn?

Coconut head.



Dialects and tribes do not mean the same thing and cannot be used interchangeably. A simple search on your much used search engine, Google will tell you why. Take note:

dialect: noun
a particular form of a language which is peculiar to a specific region or social group.
"the Lancashire dialect seemed like a foreign language"
synonyms: regional language, local language, local tongue, local speech, local parlance, variety of language;

tribe: noun
a social division in a traditional society consisting of families or communities linked by social, economic, religious, or blood ties, with a common culture and dialect, typically having a recognized leader.
"indigenous Indian tribes"
synonyms: ethnic group, people, race, nation;

I can see you enjoy prancing around this forum in your brightly colored garb of ignorance. Keep entertaining us by making a fool out of yourself. You are doing a fantastic job at the moment. Well done!

John 14:3 (ESV)
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also.

Am sure no believer would ever pick an offering theme from this verse. But not these charlatans. Here is how they put it;
' you know am your father, am the head and you are the body. The level God has taken me (jet,mansions....) that is what God is preparing you to enter as well. I see millionaires,jet owners,landlords,billionaires.....'

That's a long way of telling members to observe his prosperity and to know that they too are headed there. The tithe and offerings collector waxes fatter whether the payers and givers prosper or not. So their one out of one success chances can't be extrapolated on hapless members not entitled to such privilege. This is why the charlatans flaunt their bling and wealth. The more opulent they are, the more attractive. Who wants to hear a prosperity message from a slum dog?

Topgainer:
Quoted whole for emphasis,
You know these Criminals who rob using the name of God. Your description fits those of them who prefer the title of Prophet(Dr.) Wisdom Wealth aka God's general demon destroyer of a church with a title like Final bus stop holiness International Min.
After each show of their magicals, visions of 50 persons that will sow 50k each follows.

Oyedepo, Oyakhilome and Co have a subtle way of obtaining theirs, through foot soldiers(employed Pastors) on branches who must meet targets, remitting the same to Headquarters

what you are calling conjecture is EXACTLY what happens here. Gombs is notorious. He started with claiming his Rhapsodies thread has more impact than the WOF one. I pushed him to define 'impact'. He mumbled something to do with views,emails,prayers.....i called out this vanity. Does the views on a thread reflect the truth on a thread? It quickly turned into Rhapsodies distributed,branches. Somebody was being challenged to match that. Am not too old on NL but I have noticed that habit of throwing around CE numbers at inconvenient occasions.

When you are accused of peddling false doctrine, please justify your position Biblically not from subjective parameters such as 'millions' of Rhapsodies distributed or bought by branches.

There comes a time when I know that you know the point am making whether you admit it or not and you agree with me. This is it.

Shalom

mbaemeka:
The emboldened is on a wheelchair man- lame. That's just conjecture that we don't take serious or bother responding to as it is nothing like us. A proper exchange would have been:

Vooks: WOF teaches a false gospel and the Pastors are all fake.
Mbaemeka: but Millions have listened to the gospel from the so-called WOF men and they seem to be doing well off. Sicknesses are healed, poor are becoming rich, ignorance seems a thing of the past.
Vooks: numbers is sideshow. False signs and false prophets shall arise.
Mbaemeka:

Escapist is throwing numbers in a doctrinal debate.
False religions can and they do flourish. So appealing to growth adds NOTHING to the debate, it is sideshow.

Whether believers can/should/do perform miracles and exceed Jesus ( something NOBODY has ever seen) or not is equally irrelevant.

Vooks: why is Oyaks telling members who don't give Firstfruits that they will catch HIV?
mbaemeka: last year we were 166,392,111 members, this year we are 167,258,966.77 gloooooory
Vooks: say what?
mbaemeka: last week, fibroids disappeared off a woman at Canada Healing School

mbaemeka:
This is escapist. I am not talking about whatever false religions that thrive or exist. That's why I said in the BIBLE and why I related it between people who call themselves christians.

If you insist on tossing in the feeble excuse of 'false religions have power or false religions garner numbers' then Paul was wrong for listing his credentials in 2 Corinthians 12:12 and Jesus was wrong in pointing John the Baptist's disciples to his miracles.

Luke 6:28 Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
28 bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you.

Just following Jesus Christ

You too are blessed my broda, and am sorry for calling you a woman. It was an honest mistake and I hope you found it in your heart to forgive me. I just learnt that the 'm' and 'f' behind monikers represent gender

Image123:
Is this positive confession? WoF admirer alert.

There is a man I know. He is quite aggressive at collecting impromptu offerings. The kind of guy who go like 'the Lord showed me eight businessmen who will sow one million....RUSH to the front. The LORD wants to lift and elevate you to dumbfounding levels'. Four negroes show up. He aks for the remaining four. Nine show up and he be like, 'The Lord showed me eight.....but er it is well'

Next, he be like, 'if you are out there and you want to DARE God with five hundred thousand, not by faith but by latest tomorrow, rush to the front and queue behind these...o God the anointing in this place..(speaks in tongues)...

Next he will call one hundred thousand guys.

After this he will go to fifty thousand. By this time the altar is packed. he goes like, 'ushers quick, distribute the envelopes. Please remain where you @'

And finally the losers and suckaz like you and I are aksd to pick envelopes form ushers and raise them up to CONNECT with the SAME Word/anointing for ANY AMOUNT so as not to be left behind

The million dudes at the front get hands laid on them, 'prophetic word' spoken. Some fall of course. He can't get through the the half a million crown. He just aks everyone to ' RECEIVE!!!'

The only bit I forgot to insert was after the first four millionaires, he be like,'you may not have it here with your or you left your chequebook in the car....Oh my God, you know yourselves....don't MISS it for nothing, if you will need to borrow, borrow to top up by tomorrow...NOTE, this is not coercion or manipulation.'

I have a simple policy under such circumstances; I aks God to tell me exactly where I should be. Obviously am aksing because He has not spoken nothing.Never has God ever told me to follow no man's instruction. SO I head home minus the special anointing

That's just about the worst I have observed.

This borrowing to give regular offerings as acts of faith? That's another dimension.
Am sure there are urban legends about a man/woman who stood to connect in country X and he/she had no cash with them or in the account and they wrote the cheque 'in faith' and the next day money was deposited in their account and the cheque never bounced.

How many times do they remind you at MLM seminars of such rare 'success' stories to psyche you up?

PastorKun:
Lolz I see you have been too exposed to these religious fraudsters. But those that borrow to give to Oyak's and other charlatans end up being bankrupt like pastor Dolapo oni and several other cec victims.

Parrot. They are good at mimicking sounds.

Bidam:
You are the one making sexist chauvinistic and completely moronic statement about image being a woman. Do you respect your mother, wife and daugthers if you have any?Why bring them here to degrade them and poo on them?

The point is you knew exactly what i mean't just like i intended it to be. You are still having the root of bitterness and bile against your person cos you can't forgive yourself talk more of others.
Who said i had fits? Last time i checked you are the guy with the schizophrenic tendecies na.