₦airaland Forum

plaetton:
You really have learning disabilities.

If we all had rccg's balance sheet in our hands, we would actually know what figures we are dealing with here.

The issue here, in case your knee-jerk cognitive dissonance would allow you, is trying to figure out what they really do with their moneys in the backdrop of internal revenue from offerings, tithes and other frauds, as well as from external revenues from the known numerous FOR-PROFIT businesses that they run.

Should not their finances be open to all the rank and file members of the church?
If not, then are select few running an organised crime syndicate in the name of religion ?

You are soooo insecure, that you don't even recognize when our views converge or diverge.
You just have a compulsion to argu stupidly.

Not so fast m0ron,
You don't have figures but you have enough gonads to conjecture trillions are being wasted and then you have a fit when I call out your speculative bullshiet.

You don't know nothing. This don't make your bullshiet right, can't be disproved any more than you can prove they don't waste the trillions.

analice107:
No dear sir. It's not on TV or Radio. At least not yet. It's going out in the early hours of the morning and talk to people in a calm and gentle voice. Lol.

I see. Go for it dear one

plaetton:
You contradict yourself when you half-think.

Earlier on you asked him if their church made monthly or quarterly financial statements.
He replied that issues of finance were kept very secretive.
That's is the smoking gun.

No one knows the finances, how much rccg generates on a monthly basis, because they don't want anyone to know.

That is the issue here. The secrecy surounding church revenues from both internal and from businesses.

This is why we can only speculate, and suspect that a serious and entrenched crime syndicate is operating the pentecostal movement in Nigeria.

Idiot,
Suspecting/speculating is your right but you really have nothing to work on. What are RCCG's expenditures vs expenses? How much do they burn on remuneration,charity,capex? See what I mean?

I don't cheer opaqueness in case your puny brains missed this in my earlier comment because I know that's sign of mismanagement but you really have nothing to work on. Your 'trillions' are bullshiet in other words

oyeludef:
i totally agree with you on that. Christ is the central theme of the scripture from Genesis to revelation and He alone should be our focus and not gifts. John wesley experienced spiritual manifestations in his meetings. There are cases of people who got healed and even their doctors came to testify. I read about it in God's general (the revolutionist)

Thank you sir, I will look further into Wesley.

plaetton:
Again, using only half of your brain has serious consequences.
Redeem church finances are not different from the bottom up finances of every megachurch or Pentecostal movement.
Your brain is too restricted to think that far.

Even the Catholic church is pretty much organised in similar fashion.
The only difference is that the Catholic church runs daycare centers, primary and secondary schools, clinics, hospitals, orphanages and assorted charities with the moneys they generate.

What do Pentecostal churches do with the billions they collect from the masses of sheep?

Is this an organised crime syndicate?

M0ron,
Let me speak of Anglicans and Presbyterians. Every year they start with a budget comprising of their expenses outlay for the year plus a levy from the head quarter. They meet this and they keep the rest which they use to open schools, clinics ..... Catholicism I been told run on a similar model but am no authority on Catholicism.

What do Pentecostals do with the trillions?
First, in absence of transparency, you can't reasonably claim they have billions. Everything from here is speculative. The OP has no idea how much the 70% amounted to for instance. Secondly, since you are guessing and knowing your antitheistic bullshiet, I choose not to wallow in your mire.

Get me hard stats and we can carry on from there

dearpreye:
And all these caustic barrage of insults escaped from the mouth of ' a genuine believer?'.........

What are you doing about it barring ranting on NL?

plaetton:
The hypocrisy of the religious mind.

You are sounding more and more like an insecure religious nut.
Every religion is bad, except yours.
Every other Christian denomination is a cult, except yours.

You, Vooks, are a very insecure little man, and as usual, masking your insecurity with sanctimonious religiosity.

Remove first the log in thy own eyes before thou pointeth at
Speck in another's eye.

The only insecure m0ron I see here is you. Your antitheism speaks volumes about your insecurities. Idiot troll.

Wake me up when your atheistic neuron win a Nobel

dearpreye:
I'm sorry I thought I was engaging a liberal minded fellow. I've deliberately avoided some of your impudent comments towards me.....

That will be all.

I thought I was dealing with a genuine believer not a murmurer
Once again, you have stated your case here on NL, made it to FP, garnered a few likes. What else are you doing about it, or is this all?

dearpreye:
I've already answered that in an earlier post.

No you haven't. EXACTLY what are you going to do or are you doing about it barring ranting here on NL?

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plaetton:
If you were not a habitual half-thinker, you would have asked yourself some pertinent questions before rushing, as usual , into a babble that begs common sense.

You say headquarters has overheads? It's a cost center with no offerings?
Really?

First, what exactly are the overheads ? full time staff, electricity bills, promotional materials, travelling expenses for the top brass?
Anything else?
Like maintaining a fleet of jets( parking, insurance, parts, pilot salaries and aviation fuel)?

But what about the other half of the coin, such as headquarters income from their vast FOR-PROFIT businesses?

The have vast estates of real estate holdings that include rental and for sale properties.

They run very expensive private schools all over Nigeria.
They have shadow banking companies that finance short term businesses, contracts and LPOs at 40-50% interests.
They import cars with import waivers, and then sell the cars in the open market for huge profits, and of course, they charter their jets for profits.

Oh , I forgot to mention the billions they make from publishing books.

So, the bottom line is; headquarters makes enough profits from their business Enterprises to not only fund every church activity in every parish, but run social welfare programs for all its members nationwide.

Pentecostal Christianity is a profit oriented business, a religious fraud, period.


Let me wait for the knee jerk reaction.

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You are the one reason I believe evolution forgot Negroes behind. I was talking generally as I'm not acquainted with RCCG balance sheet nor their income statement. Head branch/office overheads are the only cost that should be spread out to all churches.Works for branched companies, multinationals...Is this too much for your Negro neuron? Or have you never studied management?

Mighty glad you are trolling me, but I'm not sure I can pass on this high IQ mantle to such a braindead m0ron

Your anti theistic puny brains has NEVER discovered nor developed nothing, period

dearpreye:
We are told our rewards are in Heaven; but the GOs and other top folks are already enjoying their rewards here.

I aksd what you are doing about it and you are yet to answer. Leaving RCCG, turning to atheism, satanism,starting your own or what?

oyeludef:
Bros Christianity is not a religious movement infact christianity isn't a religion seeing it as dat places it at d same level with islam, Buddhism et al. Islamic growth is based on birthrate, coercion, and brainwash. Christianity was also employing these tools before people like Martin Luther and William tyndale broke out of catholicism. Before d azusa street pentecostalism, we know of cases of people like John and Charles wesley who brought about the holiness movement and different manifestations of signs and wonders in their meetings. Charles finey too is a good example of a man of God who experience signs and wonders in meetings before d pentecostal era. This reminds me of Paul's words And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power: That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.
1 Corinthians 2:4-5 KJV.
I had to distinguish between faith and faithfulness because people do not realize dat it is the Holy Spirit dat gives faith(faith that produce results).
I grew up in a Bible teaching and believing church but it was all a boring experience alot of people we started children church together backslided before i even finished secondary school. I remember going to one of my youth leader to tell him about oppressions i usually experience at night he told me he wasn't used to such things and directed me to go and meet one brother like dat. I was very discouraged dat day because dis is my youth leader that could quote d Bible very well. Signs aren't and shouldn't be our focus cos dey will happen effortlessly as a matter of fact, a sinner can only be convicted by the Holy Spirit.

Bros,
I know at times 'religion' is a derogatory term but I use it to mean any movement centered on a belief in the supernatural. In this regard, Christianity is a religious movement as any other. Coercion in Islam is restricted to Islamic countries. This can't possibly explain explosion of Islam in western countries. I also gave other examples within Christianity. Point remains; miracles and signs are not NECESSARY for church growth as evidenced by growth of Christianity without miracles over history.

John Wesley believed in continuity of gifts but his ministry was never characterized by them. Finney's active ministry fell in the 19th century. Remember my point was there are significant portions of Christian history which were not marked my these manifestations yet the church grew by leaps and bounds.

I'm no cessationist, those who advocate that the gifts have expired. I believe denying continuation of gifts robs believers of opportunity to live victoriously. I have walked in some gifts and witnessed others manifesting in others. What I oppose is making spiritual gifts the central feature of Christianity because clearly from the scriptures and history they are not. You know bro we can easily idolize God's gift? Study what became of Moses' brazen serpent-2 Kings 18:4

dearpreye:
No way...we don't have....and how can we have when the province has a firm and relentless grip over my parish? They won't even allow you manage your resources. You're just a vehicle for their wealth.

When you start blind without any target, is it not difficult or impossible to know when you achieve or even exceed some objectives?

Addicted2Women:
Oh
Wow.
I have a crappy liberty mutual insurance.

Sorry for that, I won't give my insurer lest you get a nasty experience and blame me. Get a close friend who has been through a claim and if they are all happy, switch to their insurer.

dearpreye:
As with the case with most Nigerian churches, that's not the case- it doesn't at all. ....or at least I'm not aware of....

We operate a religious system that almost totally outlaws decent disagreement with perceived authority but someone's got to do the talking at the higher levels someday....maybe I'll be that person.

Funny, start yours

There's a lot of secrecy surrounding the cash....

This is serious. So you don't know how much you raised like last year let alone it's 70%?
As a church, do you have an annual budget/goals for the year?

Addicted2Women:
Is the new car you got in the same price range as your old/wrecked car ??

They just repaired the damage. There is a threshold I suppose. If the damage exceeds 50% of sum assured, it is written off and you get the sum assured in cold cash plus the first right to buy the wreck. Otherwise they repair the damage. My sum assured is over $8000 can't remember the exact figure

dearpreye:
I agree. God didn't fashion us as robots but as humans with the necessary faculties and talents to make our world a better place. Oftentimes I appear a nonconformist because I just don't get the mindless religious drift most people get into......It's insane.....Nigerians have turned their portion of responsibility to God almighty.......

What do I want to do? Let the parishes keep and account for 70% of whatever they generate. Let them take care of their leaders and their immediate families. That's all.

Does RCCG publish its annual accounts for al and sundry?
I mean at zonal,parish and churches/branches and of course national level. The reason I aks is because opaqueness goes hand in hand with poor stewardship

dearpreye:
I totally agree with your closing paragraph. This madness is very prevalent within Pentecostals. You can't suspend the deployment of common sense. Chaos will follow.

My broda,
Go back to Eden. God has just created Adam. He gives him an assignment; naming all the animals. Imagine Adam rushing back to God in prayer and 21-day fasting for revelation of what names to give to animals! Further imagine Adam refusing to give names except God gives him names. This is exactly what happens when we delegate back to God what He delegated to us.

When God gave you a brain, you are supposed to use that. You can't possibly fail to use it and demand or expect God to come to your aid.

Having said that, I understand that God is perfect but human beings made in His image are imperfect. He may delegate some perfect responsibilities to imperfect beings and you can bet less than perfect results ensue. This is why no congregation or church is perfect. In the early church in Acts, there was some murmuring about mismanagement of funds. You may want to start your perfect one and a few years from now, somebody will be ranting here about how unreasonable you are.

May I ask what you intend to do about this?

tartar9:
didn't bother to read his article.what I know is yours will be far more stupid @whorè parisbookaddict

M0ron, how do you call strangers hoe when your prophet masturbated on a 6 year old thighs for 3 years. Idiot

Parisbookaddict, is this the Neanderthal who was buying anti-depressants?
Forgive him oo

Addicted2Women:
Shut up.
What are car insurance for ??

Why would you be on house arrest for smashing your garage door ??
You can only deceive the people that live outside of the USA

M0rons are too stingy to part with probably $200 comprehensive insurance per annum which gives you peace of mind. Now she is paying over 6 times that. Mine was rammed from the rear last Dec and I get a courtesy car from the insurance for 7 days. Total damages came to ~$1,400. Got my ride after 3 weeks. Last year but one another accident. Skid on some slippery muddy road. Total damages came to $1,800. Got my ride after 3 weeks. My insurance is ~$280.

But guess what, some superstitious idiots think insurance is bad omen. What a waste of government funds educating them!

dalaman:
That is because you guys are worshiping nobody but your selves.

You are so full of wisdom, Eistein step aside for this genius

oyeludef:
brother if you take signs and wonders away from Christianity, it becomes a dead religion.

1. Nobody is 'taking away signs from Christianity
2. It is patently false that Christianity is founded on signs and wonders, and such are NECESSARY for its growth. Islam has exploded without signs, false Christian sects have mushroomed without signs. And finally,before Pentecostalism broke in the mid 19th century, signs and wonders were unheard of. Study Christian history and you will learn the truth of my statement. It shows you that religious movements don't need signs to grow.

There are some signs that must follow every Christian as Jesus said in mark 16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
Mark 16:16-18 KJV
We are limited by the amount of Truth we receive as believers e.g a believer who doesnt believe in baptism of the Holy Spirit will not get it by proxy no matter how good dat individual is.

Agreed. Signs are a PROMISE.

What we should fight against is building doctrines out of experiences.

We should equally fight against losing balance. Some overemphasize prayer,praise,spiritual gifts at the expense of others. I always remind brethren that spiritual gifts manifested in freshly born again brethren in the scriptures. This means the gifts are in no way a measure of our maturity of a believer. But we obsess with those manifesting, we elevate them, place them on pedestals as if they are supermen. This ought not to be so.

Talking about faith, there is a difference between faith as a fruit of the Spirit and faith as a spiritual gift. In galatians 5, there was a mistranslation in d king James version. What was called faith as a fruit of the Spirit is actually faithfulness(which is synonymous to dedication to duty or responsibilities) and u can confirm dis by checking other versions.

Not sure what purpose this serves bro

The gift of faith is part of the 9 gifts of the Holy Spirit and it is part of demonstrations of signs and wonders. All d gifts of d spirit are minute fractions of God's ability that gets demonstrated in believers from time to time dat is y even faith as little as mustard seed can move mountains.

1 Corinthians 12:8-10 (ESV)
8 For to one is given through the Spirit the utterance of wisdom, and to another the utterance of knowledge according to the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit, 10 to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another the ability to distinguish between spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues
Let us not go beyond what is written. Here we can see a clear distinction between the gifts of Faith and Miracles

Again, these gifts manifest in very young believers. This means the gifts are not a measure of maturity. Example

Acts 19:6 (ESV)
6 And when Paul had laid his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they began speaking in tongues and prophesying.

Scriptural balance does not necessarily mean being at d middle, it means being where d Bible is i.e doing things d Bible way.

One can easily be thrown off balance by overemphasis of the right thing sir.

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dalaman:
In Nigeria the only God that truly exist is money. Money is the only God people are seeking and hoping for when they visit these religious houses. Pastors only preach about how God will make your rich, give you money, make you prosper in all that you do, give you that dream job, give you that dream wife/husband, secure your life, make you happy etc. Everything that goes on in the Nigerian church is all about personal aggrandizement.

This show of shame continues to linger, because most people are poor and badly in need of money, the pastors know these things and are willing to exploit people to the fullest. Our churches are always full only because our society is so disorganized and our people want money(Sermons in churches begin and end with money and personal aggrandizement). The Nigerian churches preach and promote nothing but selfishness, greed, criminality, confusion and madness. This is evident in the society. You will always, I repeat always trust an irreligious non church attending and non God believing European with your 1000 euros, than trust a bible wielding and constantly church attending Nigerian with your 10,000 naira. That reason alone has shown us that our churches have failed us, they are all business empires, where people go and buy hope(they tell you that your lives will get better in always if only you pay God for it by sowing seed or giving tithes). It is only in Nigeria that hope is sold to people for money. And the place where hope is sold is called the church.

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Atheism is the answer, ain't it plaetton ?

Candour:
Dear vooks, how are u doing bro?

These our mog never stop in their determination to bring Christianity into ridicule. Imagine the brazen exploitation?

I'm faring well in Jesus Christ. The relationship between h/o and branches is a thorny one. First, the H/o has overheads, is a cost center so to speak seeing it receives no offerings. So it's overheads must be spread out across all branches.

If it were down to me, I'd spread h/o's budget for the year together with a 10% contingency across all parishes/zones on the basis of their previous year's total revenues. They can keep the rest as soon as they meet their quota. The zones will then escalate their share to the individual branches.

But come to think of it, mega churches with hundreds of branches just attract needless nightmares. Why not commission ministers and release them? The size and numbers just pamper GO's ego.

Does it not strike you as funny that mainstream churches, Anglican, Presbyterian and Catholic have no such worries with branch management? There is something wrong with Pentecostalism, and this is imagining that you can suspend common sense and receive spiritual wisdom instead. We need to study how these 'unspiritual' institutions do their thing

analice107:
@Superior and vooks, and others. I posted my amateur sermon up there, pls edit it for me. Thanks.

Anas09 dearest,
If I take away a jot from our sermon, I'll be guilty of something close to what John warns us against in Revelation.

This broadcast evangelism, are you doing it on tv/radio, and do you have a fixed time slot? If you do, my advice is you rehearse your sermon and time yourself, see how long it takes. This will save it from being truncated halfway. If you are posting it somewhere in a blog/site or magazine, I can try and help with the grammar,structure and paragraphs and all

Here is a broad structure of your powerful message
Title: Revelation of Jesus Christ

1. Who is Jesus to others 'out there'?

2. Who is Jesus to you? Not all following Christ closely know who He is

3. The necessity of revelation of Jesus Christ

3(a). Removes the need for intermediaries
3(b). Gives you boldness in the face of attacks and adversities
3(c). Saves you from spiritual abuse

If nobody gets to hear it, I'm certainly blessed by it. Deeply challenged as well.

analice107:
My dearest.
don't mind this fool with his paranoia. To him, he has done so well. He cant even see his stupidity.

My sista ooo,
When you are stung by freemasonry and illuminati bug, you see hidden symbols everywhere. You walk around feeling like everyone else is a fool for missing it and you are the only wise primate for seeing it.

Somebody once told me that Solomon was a Freemason because he received a gift of gold weighing 666 talents (1 Kings 10:14). Another went further and insisted the bible with 66 books is Satanic. Idiots. May they receive sense in Jesus name!

analice107:
O my God, vooks. *Cover face*

Dearest, sometimes these monikers post like kids. How do you read a block paragraph of over 20 lines without commas or full stop?

Image123:
i don tell vooks before oh, in fact with vex sef. We will carry him to TB if symptoms persist.

I'm sorry, I missed it

analice107:
She is not a brother. She's a sister, married with kids.

I repent, I repent ,I repent
Pele plapville

Heard about illuminati and freemasonry conspiracy back in 1996 and I was smiling there with a self-important constipated grin across my face. I felt like I knew too much than my equals.

That's what conspiracy theorizing does; gives you an exaggerated sense of self importance. The OP probably thinks heaven is awaiting for him following how much he has enlightened the body of Christ with his 'discoveries'. Total m0ron

analice107:
Humm and wow, all together. Am a bit shaken. Although, am not the type who is drawn by signs, but I pray for signs so that the lost may draw close and want to ask questions, just like the Moses and the burning Bush you mentioned. I hope am not out of place?
As matter of fact. God remains God, whether the earth exist or not. Am certain of that. I need him, He doesn't need me Everything He needs, He has.
Sometimes, when I get angry and frustrated, I tell myself, you'll end up delaying your blessings. Get up and move. Your sulking doesn't touch God. He is moved by your faith, not by ur tears or moods. If you stay here, Satan will catch up with you, then who looses? Move.

Anas09,
I so love that attitude. Not tears but faith.
Once again, there is nothing wrong with signs and wonders, let's just say they are biblically and historically not perfect for drawing men to God. Signs are not that elusive formula for success in evangelism.

I know this is kinda hard digesting especially for an African given our 'natural' animism not to mention Pentecostalism, a movement founded on signs and wonders.

In my humble opinion, during biblical times signs and wonders were exceptional and not the rule. But today we have some who would have us believe that their ministries are founded on a 'lifestyle' of miracles...miracles popping right,left and center. To me this is not a measure of their great faith but deception. Little wonder the healing lines we watch on TV are carefully choreographed and edited.

analice107:
Go away and don't come back, we don't need you here, they said to him.
And am wondering, WHY?

Dearest Anas09,
This is very insightful.

It is one of those instances where unbelief was not shattered by the miraculous. Another one is Capernaum. See what Jesus has to say about them;
Matthew 11:23-24 (ESV)
23 And you, Capernaum, will you be exalted to heaven? You will be brought down to Hades. For if the mighty works done in you had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day. 24 But I tell you that it will be more tolerable on the day of judgment for the land of Sodom than for you.”

When you think about it, manifestation of the supernatural is supposed to draw our attention to the source( God) like the way the burning bush drew Moses. And they do to a good extent. On Pentecost, speaking in tongues attracted men. In the book of Acts, miracles were accompanied by men turning to Christ. But this is not NECESSARILY the case, and this is my point. We oft times are infatuated by signs, by the ease with which we can rebuke super bad sicknesses, cast out demons and so forth. Let's be honest. For most of us, nothing tickles us better than signs.

I wish to submit to us that we err greatly when we focus on the gifts...the manifestations as the missing ingredient to our effective witnessing. This is the fundamental fault of Pentecostalism. The fact that the miraculous did not stir up faith all the times should make us wary of obsessing with them.

John the Baptist did ZERO(John 10:41) miracles and he was quite effective in his ministry.

Christian history from 2nd century to mid 18th century was seldom punctuated by the miraculous. Signs and wonders are really a new phenomena. Yet Christianity spread like wild fire.

My point is not to trash the work of Holy Spirit. Remember spiritual gift of signs and healing and prophecy are all His. Rather what I wish to state is that we should not put more premium to supernatural manifestations than is necessary as we may easily lose balance.

Whereas some of us here were drawn to God by extravagant manifestation of His raw power, I'm prepared to bet that MOST of were just drawn to Him by the simple conviction of our sinfulness by the Holy Spirit. For this reason, it is better to pray that Holy Spirit may convict the world of its sin than to pray for supernatural manifestation regardless of how glorious they are.

I wish to end by highlighting another danger of obsessing with manifestations. This could be a sign of lack of faith. When you will ONLY pay attention to a minister/sermon if it is accompanied by manifestations, you lack faith. Jesus gave men bread and the next day they demanded for another sign! When you walk by faith, you are undeterred by absence of supernatural manifestation; God remains God whether you can see Him in action or not. Faith is evidence of things not seen. If you must see God to believe or to continue believing Him,you are faithless.

Selah