₦airaland Forum

Could a kind heart point to me 'rapture' from Revelation?

destinedtee:
Haba bro... I haven't said anything about suspending our reasoning faculties . Read my earlier post well. I said they (intellect and brain) are wonderful avenues but the Spirit takes the first place in the life of the believer. I further went ahead to even say I already have a second degree and may even proceed. Get me right please. Our minds, brain et al have their great functions. They were given to us by the Lord to use them effectively as we go about our daily lives.

There are times what we know or have learnt will be in contrast with the Spirit. At those moments, what we need to do is of course let the Spirit lead while we suspend what we know in the natural.

I am not in support of spiritual extremists who suspend their reasoning faculty when it isn't even appropriate to do so. We have to balance things here so we don't find ourselves at the extreme of two lines.

Do you get my point sir?

I agree with you 120%

Sometimes back on this thread I wondered how come even Spirit filled believers may not agree on a particular doctrine or scripture. I suggested the answer is simply the fact that our beliefs are informed by many things and not just the voice of the Holy Spirit. What you aptly call 'what we have learnt' are essentially different voices speaking to us over something at the same time as the voice of the Holy Spirit.

These voices would include: our own reasoning/intellect, what we have read or heard elsewhere and so forth.

So once again, I agree with you totally that God ofttimes requires us to abandon what we know, our convictions and intuition and listen to Him

Stay blessed

destinedtee:
@vooks : To buttress what I said earlier. The Lord told Peter to come on water. The law we know in physics (Archimedes) is clearly against that. Reason, brain and intellect wouldn't agree with such seemingly unwise instruction. If Peter were to primarily follow his brain / mind, he will not even step out of the boat.

That doesn't mean Peter did not go on to make use of his brain and thinking faculties after that encounter. Our brain has its function and believe me sir it's excellent. We must not walk 'out of our minds' but it remains important to always allow the Holy Spirit take the lead.

There is a thin line between being Spirit led and being a religious fanatic / extremist. We have got to be balanced bro. I am not in any way against the use of our brains but I will personally SUSPEND it if it is in contrast with what the Lord is asking me to do(That's a personal decision)

Thanks bro

destinedtee,
Faith is NEVER unreasonable.
Take your example of Peter
1. Jesus Himself was walking on water
2. Jesus, the Son of the Living God bids you to do do something, to walk on water

These two ought to give you all the confidence to step out.

I see Peter as an extremely rational being. He is 'testing the spirits'. Remember the disciples were at first afraid that they were seeing ghosts. Peter DARES Jesus to prove himself and willingly risks his life while at it.

Trusting God against all odds is not suspending reason; God is all-powerful and the most reasonable thing to do is to trust the most powerful being...this informed Moses signs in front of Pharaoh, or Daniel interpretation of Nebchadnezzer dreams when everyone else had failed.

Now,
When I say faith is not the opposite of reason I mean God does not discard our intellect when using us, He works through whatever He has already deposited in us.

What we need is humility in appreciating that God's ways are way above our ways and even at our best, we may not grasp it. This means subjecting our intellectual faculties to His Word and Will. But Hod would never punish us for trying to understand Him. Moses said the secret things belong to God but those He has revealed is for us and our children. This means there is a realm God expects us to employ our faculties.

Sometimes back in college I learnt that delegates power can't be delegated. There was a Latin maxim for this. When I study Genesis, I see a perfect example of this. God instructs Adam to name animals. He leaves him to the task. Imagine Adam going back to God to ask Him which names he should give!

The point is, God had placed in Adam CAPACITY to carry out this exercise and He expected Adam to use it. Likewise, God has given us intellectual capacity to relate to Him. We should not shy away from using it to do just that all the while acknowledging its limits.

This is so rare that the Muslims may be feted. Why is it this RARE?

http://www.nation.co.ke/counties/Two-dead-3-injured-Mandera-bus-attack/-/1107872/3004522/-/12gsxkc/-/index.html

the intellect is not the antithesis of the spiritual. They are not mutually exclusive. While knowledge puffeth, people perish because of lack of knowledge.

God gave us brains and at no time are we supposed to suspend reason.

Very many dangerous movements and sects have been born out of suspension of reason.

Remember it is always easy to tag anything as 'spiritual' and above reproach and hence acceptable.

Here is an excellent article on logic and reason and Christianity

That favorite version of the bible you use is not a product of 'spiritual maturity' as such but a rigorous intellectual exercise called theology.

italo:
My question was: In Joshua7:6 Did they bow to the images on the Ark or to God before the Ark? Please answer.


Exodus 20:4

4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.


So are you saying all sculptures, paintings, pictures and drawings of landscape, trees, fish, humans, angels, saints, Jesus...are sinful? Please answer.



So Joshua was a pagan? Moses was a pagan? Anyway, we use the images for the same reasons Joshua and Moses used images: to draw our minds to the things of God...and God manifests his presence through such images when they are consecrated. Images don't detract from worshiping God in spirit and truth. Paul's handkerchief healed people. Does it mean he was a pagan. Why did he send his handkerchief instead of telling them to talk to God directly. Was Paul a pagan too?



What has crying got to do with anything. I said if you must argue against Catholic belief, do so. Don't make up beliefs for us and argue against your own lies.

The satanist and idolaters now seeks vindication in the Torah?

I doubt MFM violent prayers can deliver her

Ok.
Scriptures for now;
1. It is God who COMMANDED the ark to be made and gave elaborate details of the same

Exodus 25:22 King James Version (KJV)
22 And there I will meet with thee, and I will commune with thee from above the mercy seat, from between the two cherubims which are upon the ark of the testimony, of all things which I will give thee in commandment unto the children of Israel.

2. The Israelites NEVER went any further than what YHWH had commanded

3. Catholicism has gone BEYOND what YHWH have to Moses and manufactured idols and called them 'Jesus', 'Mary',the apostles.....and made shrines to them

KingEbukasBlog:
No one ever said disease came from the supernatural realm instead they said diseases were used by the supernatural to inflict pain on anyone . Which is true . Even God used diseases - boils - to punish the Egyptians in one of the plagues .

As an atheist you cant agree or disagree to the above .


There is no research to be made that will silence God . Man has not been able to find answers to the holes of cosmic evolution and he wants to find what caused the big bang ?

Anyways thanks for exhibiting faith in science which has its many limitations but you overlooked and strongly believe will provide your answers to questions concerning the universe .


Weird you guys mock Christians who have faith in God but cheers anyway .



Its fine if wishful thinking makes you feel better

Don't you just love the way antitheists hide behind ignorance?

Of course knowledge keeps on increasing but PRESENT knowledge suffices to rule out chance as being responsible of the the incredible complex and ordered life. For instance, just as no amount of knowledge changes the FACT that it is IMPOSSIBLE for random processes to generate a Subaru,no amount of knowledge can turn abiogenesis hoax into a fact.

Little wonder 'scientists' shy away from Origins. Did you know they worked super hard to drop the term 'chemical evolution' and instead adopted abiogenesis?

If you are going to explain how life has evolved in complexity, you need to explain where life came from in the first place

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dmandy:
Scene 2 opens with italo educating one vooks that the bible was inspired by the holy spirit and cannot lie.


Vooks: ...yah, blessed rather are those that heard the word of God and kept it not Mary.

italo: But Mary heard the word and kept it.

vooks: she kept words shared by angel (implying that was not God's word) and therefore cannot be special.

italo: But Elizabeth under the influence of the Holy spirit thinks she was special.

vooks; No, that was Elizabeth's opinion

italo: But she was under the influence of the holy spirit and Holy spirit cannot supervise heresy

probably convinced that the Holy Spirit thinks Mary special or lacking any other straw to grasp, vooks disappeared from scene, then appears brocab (remember him from scene one). Yes, the one that says snapping passport is idolatry.

brocab: You call us Mary haters but we are telling you the word of God.

italo: But Luke 1 41-45 is the word of God

brocab: Yes that is true but (I have to just find something to prove the bible wrong, ok let me think) But You worship worship Mary as your savior, (not knowing how to prove that assertion, he forgot he was opposed to Elizabeth being filled with the holy spirit and went on. But Elizabeth is also favored by God why don't you worship her.

italo: (Understanding now that brocab is irredeemable answered) We also honour St. Elizabeth the same way we honor St. Mary.

brocab: (Obviously confused) I am also a saint my name is St. Brocab . Why don't you honor me? (understanding that that doesn't make any sense went on) But the church is in error

dmandy appears in the scene

dmandy: The church is error? You cannot continue ranting, but the bible says the gate of hell shall not prevail against it.

brocab: No, the church is just two or three who are gathered in the name of Jesus.

dmandy: Its much more than that, Jesus actually built a church and commissioned it to spread

brocab: Jesus said he will build a church. The passage is not talking about any church.

dmandy: But Jesus actually built a church and there is no parallel church.

brocab: You have to put Jesus first

dmandy: Yes I put Jesus first. But how can you explain Jesus to a kid?

brocab: Just talk to him about Jesus and show him Jesus in your life

dmandy: But that is my question, how do you make the kid understand what you are talking about Jesus?

brocab: ....

brocab: ....


Now, this is my lesson from this little drama:

(i) These people are uncomfortable where they are.

(ii) Seeing that they can never agree on anything since the teachings of General Overseer on a particular topic is very different from that of Man of God and that of Bishop is no where near that of Apostle which of course makes a mockery of the teachings of the Senior Prophet.

(iii) Faced with so much chaotic and diverse views about God and his Word they seek a point of unity

(iv) Hunted by the fact there can't possibly be any unity in their shameful diversity, they envy anything that is uniform and organized. You hear them talk of organized religion and all that a feat they lack.

(v) afraid that since they don't agree on anything, obviously some of them are wrong since only one can be right, they fear they might loose heaven and then the fear breeds attack.

(vi) They attack everything and anything Catholic because they don't understand how it is possible that Catholic Church can agree.

(vii) Because it is impossible to them, they think the devil must be responsible because according to them God cannot be so organized.

(viii) When bring up their own version of Catholic teaching and you point to them the correct church teaching, they say but its not in the bible and when you point it out in the bible, they say but it is a one-off event, when you show them another similar event, they go on sabbatical and never answer you again waiting secretly for another member of their camp to raise yet another issue into which they jump with all their might and the cycle continues...

In conclusion, Satan did not rest when he was tempting Jesus (alas even with scriptures) until Jesus stopped preaching and Rebuked him. Having said this I will end with ' GET LOST SATAN, and keep believing whatever makes you feel comfortable wherever you are until you meet your creator'.

[/size]

You are full of sh*t
1. You hallucinate about nobody envying Catholicism
2. You hallucinate further about the cause for everyone envying Catholicism as being their 'unity'


Now now,
Am no psychiatrist so I have no remedy for your schizophrenia. Instead, I will concern meself with scriptures;

FACT #1
Elizabeth says Mary is blessed
Luke 1:42 (KJV)
And she spake out with a loud voice, and said, Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb

FACT #2
A woman says Mary is blessed
Luke 11:27 (KJV)
And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed is the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked

FACT #3
Jesus says MORE BLESSED are those that keep His Word
Luke 11:28 (KJV)
But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it.

Luke 11:28 (HCSB)
28 He said, “Even more, those who hear the word of God and keep it are blessed!”

Conclusions
1. Catholicism is right in pointing out the blessedness of Mary
2. Catholicism is flat out wrong in insinuating that Mary's blessedness far much EXCEEDS that of other men

I understand that even pagans have to exalt objects first before worshipping them, this is why Catholicism exalts Mary. But as Jesus told hat woman, any 'special' blessedness Mary possessed is equaled and exceeded by the hearers and doers if the Word.

Read a brief history of this scam from here

A SPOILER

And thus we have a ten-cent tour of the history of Rosicrucian mysticism. It was invented in the early 1600's by European intellectuals who wrote allegorical tales blending alchemy with Protestant Christianity. It was revived in the early 1900's by the New Thought movement seeking ancient forms of mysticism that appealed to the notions of a population just beginning to learn that such a thing as a cosmic universe existed, and searching for meaning within it. And a century later, Rosicrucianism remains just one more flavor of for-profit New Age products, leveraging claims to ancient wisdom into bank deposits. It professes that the "keys to the universe" were known to a handful of Europeans 400 years ago, they just never managed to do much with them, since recurring credit card billing hadn't been invented yet.

I will close with the phrase that Rosicrucians like to put at the bottom of all their written communications. It means "So it shall be" and is often used to mean "Amen" or "In the name of God":

So Mote It Be!

What I find funny? The same who chide Negroes for taking to oyinbo religion have no qualms belonging to this Caucasian scam


Cc plaetton

Michaelangelo100:
Now brethren in the lord in regard to things which our sister said What says the Scriptures? Man is not conscious in death: "His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish." "The living know that they shall die: but the dead knows not anything.... Their love, and their hatred,and their , is now perished; neither have they any more a portion forever in anything that is done under the sun." "The grave cannot praise thee, death cannot celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth. The living, the living, he shall praise thee, as i do this day." "In death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks? Psalm 146:4; Ecclesiastes 9:5, 6; Isaiah 38:18, 19; Psalm 6:5.

Lastly brethren Spirits of Devils personating relatives or Someone who has lived before will appeal to our tender Sympathies and will work miracles. We must withstand them with the Bible truth that the dead know not anything and that they who they appear are the spirits of devils.

Excellent write up.

But you seem to argue that man has no consciousness that survives death, and as such, anything resembling the departed can only be demons.

Soul Sleep is the name given to this doctrine. Among its proponents are Jehovah's Witnesses, Seventh Day Adventists and so forth

There is another option. There is a conscious human spirit that survives death but they are displaced from the land of the living to await resurrection/judgement.

This is what Jesus taught indirectly in the Rich Man and Lazarus Parable in Luke 16.

In the same Exclesiastes ever favorite among Soul Sleep proponents, we come across this;

Ecclesiastes 3:21 (KJV)
Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?

Question is, what is this 'spirit' that goes upward or downward? Is it conscious, or is this a mere figure of speech? And if it is a figure of speech, why would it puzzle the Preacher?

From beyond he grave the Rich man had a consciousness as did Lazarus and also memory of his life on earth.

Luke 16:23 (KJV)
And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom

And IN HELL....

Before you resort to the standard defense, 'it is a parable', let me remind you that ALL parables of Jesus were founded on REALISM

dolphinheart:
Maybe I'm wrong, but what do they do on Dec 25th? of was that not the day they said jesus was born?

That fewer and fewer people are singing happy birthday song for jesus shows two things
1. Pagans are Taking their celebration back
2. People are realizing the truth that they have been fed lies about Dec 25th.

And you are right, no need to weep more than the bereaved

The date of birth of Jesus is a very MINOR point of Christmas, Christians celebrate INCARNATION; God/Word becoming flesh.

CAPTIVATOR:
@ falopey


Show me how roman 14:5,6 support christmas ?

The DAYS are Jewish celebrations commanded by God ? A simple yes or no is required

Nonsense
Do you keep Passover, Weeks and all the rest because they are 'commanded by God'?
The point of that verse is esteeming a day to the Lord is as good as esteeming none. The Christian who observes Christmas is no better than one who doesn't. This is regardless of the origins of the day.

For your information, the concept of synagogues was developed during captivity so it is entirely pagan. This was borrowed by Christians in establishing church structures. Do we lose sleep over trivialities such as origin or do we not focus on the purpose/intent?

lacum:
pls be reasonable in ur arguement. ur repetition of 450yrs is uncalled for when Uben hv shown u d tots on church men who lived around the first century.

Reasonable?
Facts are stubborn Negro!
No infant baptism took place for the first 450 years of Christianity. If you think this is false, adduce evidence to the contrary

John 1:29 (KJV)
The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AI6dYR_aQ4I

Now Behold the Lamb(1995) by Kirk Franklin and the Family

Lyrics
[b][Verse 1]
Now behold the Lamb
The Precious Lamb of God
Born into sin that I may live again
The Precious Lamb of God (2x)

[Verse 2]
Holy is the Lamb
The Precious Lamb of God
Why You love me so, Lord
I shall never know
The Precious lamb of God (2X)

Repeat Verse 1

Solo
Now behold the Lamb
The Precious Lamb of God
Born into sin that I may live again
He's the precious Lamb of God

When I always didn't do right
I went left, He told me to go right
But I'm standing right here
In the midst of my tears, Lord
I claim You to be the Lamb of God

[Pre-Chorus]
Thank You for the Lamb
The Precious Lamb of God
Because of Your grace
I can finish this race
The Precious Lamb of God

Solo
Even when I broke Your heart
My sins tore us apart
But I'm standing right here
In the midst of my tears
I claim You to be the Lamb of God

New life can begin (yeah),
For You washed away, washed away every one of my sins
Whom the Son sets free, is truly free indeed
claim You to be the Lamb of God

Chorus
Now behold the Lamb
The Precious Lamb of God
Born into sin that I may live again
The Precious Lamb of God

[Bridge]
Oh Oh Oh
Oh Oh Oh

[Verse 3]
Worthy is the Lamb
the precious lamb of God
Praise his holy name, o Lord
The Precious Lamb of God

Why You love me so, Lord
I shall never know
Why You love me so, Lord
I shall never know
Why You love me so, Lord
I shall never know
The Precious Lamb of God

Oh Oh Oh
Oh Oh Oh
Oh Oh Oh

Why You love me so,oh Lord
I worship you
The Precious Lamb of God

Uh....
Uh....oh....
You love me, Jesus
You died for me, Jesus just for me
You shed your blood on the cross for me, Jesus On The Cross


Thank you for Being Born For Me, Jesus
Thank you Jesus, Thank you Jesus
For lovin' me so, Oh, Lord
I shall never know
Thank you Jesus
He's the precious lamb of God
Thank you
For lovin' me so yeah.
Thank you for your blood yeah...
Why you love me so, Lord
I shall never know
The Precious Lamb of God[/b]

PastorOluT:
Smile, u are obviosly only out for arguement not reason. U have a complicated mind making mountain out a mole hill.

NB Note I have not taken a stand on the question but giving room for all to delibrate. Take a chill pill n see life from a simple perception may be ur life will be less complicated?

This is your error; hypothesizing.
In your own imagination, Judas has repented. My question is, in that same imagination, has God condemned him to perdition or not?

analice107:
Good morning brethren and Merry Christmas.

@Destindtee. what I just recounted is not reincarnation. Reincarnation to those who believe, is the spirit of a loved dead person (mostly elderly)being reborn by a family member.

This is a demon takingup a dead person's body, exactly the person, living the person's life, bearing the person's name.
she even a had Child who still lives today.

my dear, I didn't delve into this. It happened in my neighbourhood. Nobody called it reincarnation. These things are believed to be happening, so nobody raised so much dust, only that it happened around us.

When I started reading my Bible, I found out, man dies once. I believe that. God created His World, he alone decides how we enter and exit it. But this phenomenon is veryyyyyyyyy strange.

This is the greatest of satanic deceptions.
But that child, I mean her Son, will he be possessed? can he live a normal life? can he be born again? so many questions.

I didn't raise this strange phenomenon here to cause confusion pls. I just need an explantation, if anyone can explain it.

Anas09,
That is just about the craziest thing I've heard in a loooong time.

I have read of stories of the dead showing up temporarily but yours is in its own league.

Acts 12:12-15 (KJV)
And when he had considered the thing, he came to the house of Mary the mother of John, whose surname was Mark; where many were gathered together praying. 13 And as Peter knocked at the door of the gate, a damsel came to hearken, named Rhoda. 14 And when she knew Peter's voice, she opened not the gate for gladness, but ran in, and told how Peter stood before the gate. 15 And they said unto her, Thou art mad. But she constantly affirmed that it was even so. Then said they, It is his angel.


From this account at least we can tell there was some belief that spirits could impersonate men

Ubenedictus:
From the standpoint of church history infant
baptism was an ancient practice accepted by
the Eastern Orthodox, Roman Catholic, and
Oriental Orthodox churches. It was even
accepted by the mainstream Protestant
churches: Lutheran, Reformed, and Anglican. But it was rejected by the radical Anabaptists
then by the Baptists. In time it became popular
among many Protestants, especially
Evangelicals and Pentecostals. Thus, the strict
credobaptist position which rejects
paedobaptism is a doctrinal novelty that originated in the 1500s and marks a major
departure from the historic Christian faith

None of this changes the fact that it was INVENTED in the fifth century. Why couldn't God save the infants born to Christians for the first 450yrs of Christianity?

It's like you think, 'everyone once did it so it's cool'. God is not a democracy my broda

OP what's the big deal with a Tecno? Did you know that Tecno is one of the smallest phone manufacturers from China? I have contracted the Chinese and worked with them for years. They are madly in love with iPhones and Samsung. Hey just don't trust their own sh*t.

You will have truly matured when you will have used iPhone 6 Plus, HTC One M8, Galaxy Note 4 and Blackberry Q10 all in under 12 months like yours truly and you are least bothered.

Phones are status symbols for idiots and deranged broke-ass m0rons.

What were you saying?

magicminister:
Tb Joshua does this almost weekly without thr whole press and fanfare.

Oh well!!

Every donation TB Joshua does is highly publicized you liar.

Besides, charity is not an accomplishment but the gospel in deed.

To measure charity efforts you need these two parameters plus your brain;
1. Your total income/ revenues
2. Total value of gifts

Next, compute the proportion of your income that you call charity.

How much does SCOAN/TB Joshua collect in a week?
How much of that goes to charity?

I can realistically hazard that it is less than 1%

This is the whole logic of the woman giving a mite

So don't be fooled by publicity stunts. The needy sure do need it, but the givers who advertise have their reward right here namely; praises of men

Syncan:
Despite the fact that I already told you that breaking my posts in such fashion helps you be mischievous, you went ahead and did it again because you actually want to be mischievous and hide the fact that you're lying against scripture. You talked about "angel casting the incense on earth" when I asked you to show me from scripture you quoted this: Revelation 8:5 (AMP) "So the angel took the censer and filled it with fire from the altar and cast it upon the earth. Then there followed peals of thunder and loud rumblings and blasts and noises, and flashes of lightning and an earthquake". Please where in this scripture did the angel cast incense on earth? You just put on your robe of accusations and come facing the brethren, yet in Ignorance you pontificate and make a mess of yourself. Scripture is right that only the truth shall set you free and so it is. I have made bold in red font; what the angel cast on earth, since you no longer can read your own scriptural quotes. What the angel cast on earth in verse 5; was "fire taken from the alter of God", this was after the smoke of the incense had "ascended up before God out of the hand of the angel" as seen in verse 4. Please say the truth always, that's how you'll come closer to Christ.

The incense is not blown like dust, it is put in a censer with burning fire. The censer is cast down to earth. If the Angel was mediating and interceding as Carholicism would imagine he was, that effectively stops the moment the censer is cast to earth.

On the rest, I have nothing to say about you quarrel with scripture and your wild imaginations, attempting to divert attention from your lies against scripture, It's entirely your problem not mine.

The reason you have NOTHING on the wisdom dispensed above is because it exposes the foolishness of excusing necromancy in the name of 'God is a God of the living so dead saints are not dead really'. If you were consistent in in applying your 'fellowship of saints' you'd be telling widows that they have superb fellowship with their hubbies from purgatory. This is Nonsense Incarnate.

Praise be to God for the valiant reformers who tore through Catholicism rot

charlsecy:
The Bible says household. We do not know for certainty whether there're children in the household or not. So we cannot say.

There are good reasons children are ruled out;
1. Baptism is administered to believers and it is not reasonable to deem children(infants) who can't understand the gospel as believers

2. There are elaborate records of baptisms in history outside the scriptures and these omit infants. In fact, infant baptism started over 400 years after Pentecost. So we can trust that whatever may have been omitted in the scriptures most certainly could not have escaped these believers some of whom were the apostles' contemporaries or they met them

3. In Judaism baptism was practiced long before Christ, and even then, it was for adults not for infants. See this entry on Jewish Encyclopaedia

Infant baptism is just like Christmas; a late invention. The difference between them is infant baptism is given more weight and made a standard indispensable doctrine

Why was she not among the 116 'martyrs' buried alive by TB Joshua greed and myopia?

Syncan:
This is what my bible said happened to the incense "And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand". Please show me where yours talked about "angel casting the incense on earth". I'll like to see that to be sure you're not importing your imaginations in the name of scriptures.

Walk me through Revelation 8. What did the angel cast on earth?

Revelation 8:5 (AMP)
5 So the angel took the censer and filled it with fire from the altar and cast it upon the earth. Then there followed peals of thunder and loud rumblings and blasts and noises, and flashes of lightning and an earthquake.

Again on Zechariah you continue to stand by what you imagine and not what scripture shows.You're no longer sure it was Jesus since I have shown you why it isn't Jesus. Now you say it "looks like" Jesus praying in John 17, yet again you have suddenly start to "wonder if it was a prayer of any sort" Smh. Only the truth shall set you free.

Zechariah is an extremely tenous scripture to prop angel worship. I stand by my assertion that Zechariah mirrors John 17 and if it indeed was intercession, it was from Jesus Christ but it is not necessarily intercession.


The truth that worship of Angels is sin and worship of saints is necromancy. In fact those are not saints you contact but demons.

I really don't know how to help you on the matter of marriage, you seem to be asking me same questions that Jesus was asked, let me direct you to scriptures once again : "Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God. For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven. But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living"Matt.22:28-32. Just to help you, Jesus gives us two truths here: 1. The saints gone before us do not marry. 2. The saints gone before us are living. The problem is not Catholicism, It is either you believe Jesus or you doubt him, please make up your mind.

Catholicism claims to have 'fellowship' or 'communion' of saints either in heaven or earth. This means saints here can intercede just as saints in heaven,as there are really no dead saints seeing God is God of the living. Why not stretch this further to marriage? Why is it that death dissolves a marriage if there is zero distinction between the living and the dead?

In fact since we have communion of saints, we really don't have widows and widowers. Such asinine and depraved philosophy is nauseating

What is the difference between Negroes who visit cemeteries to talk to their deceased relations and a Catholic chatting with Mary or Mother Teresa?

PastorOluT:
It is very relavant cos once we can proof that he will be forgiven, then it will show the
exrent God can go in forgiving n the power of forgiveness.

NB It doesnt change the fate of Judas but it sure affect our perception of God

As I said, you are busy, too busy confusing facts with conjecture.
In your imagination, Judas repents. Why would he not be forgiven? Because God had said he would perish, right? But God can't say he will perish if he is going to repent.

In short you are inventing a contradiction, one where Judas repents but God won't forgive him because it is written he will perish.

#KeepDreaming

Syncan:
Personally I do not like breaking my posts into bits as you just did, that's an easy way for mischief and is tiresome for me. But I will oblige you this once.

1. Zechariah 2:3-4 was to show you that the angel in Zechariah.1:12 is not Jesus. If he were Jesus, the second angel will not address him like this “Run, say to that young man..." No angel can address Jesus in that manner. So if he wasn't Jesus, then an angel prayed for men in Zechariah 1:12. Now I see you don't even read my posts, you're clouded by what you have already learnt.

2. I cannot help you if you're quarreling with scriptures, all I do is point them out to you.

3. You want to know my theology on "angels casting incense on earth"? Please I need you to show me which part of scripture this happened, or is that a lie against scripture?

4.On your wild imaginations concerning marriage, wife and husbands, all I can do is refer you to Jesus words in Matt.22:28-33.

Go back to Revelation and tell me what happens when the angel is given incense.

About Zechariah, I said this looks like Jesus praying in John 17 but I wonder whether it is a prayer or any sort in the first place.

On marriage, It is not wild imagination sir, Catholicism would like to imagine there is no death and dead men are as good as the living seeing God is a God of the living. Following this thought, it goes without saying you still retain dead spouses still retain 'fellowship' with the living. If you can invoke this to justify praying to demons and calling them saints, why not apply the same to marriage?

plappville:
Man live a competitive life. But we should pray for God to help us ovecome it.

Think about it sir, is competition the antithesis of love as image123 posits?

Syncan:
I am not moved by taunts or off point insinuations. I simply showed you clearly with Zechariah 1:12, and 2:3-4 that angels do pray for men and that the angel you erroneously claimed was Jesus; was not Jesus, but an angel as scripture said.

Could you please walk me through what part of these verses is intercession?
Zechariah 2:3-4 (ESV)
3 And behold, the angel who talked with me came forward, and another angel came forward to meet him 4 and said to him, “Run, say to that young man, Jerusalem shall be inhabited as villages without walls, because of the multitude of people and livestock in it. 5 And I will be to her a wall of fire all around, declares the Lord, and I will be the glory in her midst.’”

About Zechariah 1:12, I said this eerily reminds me of John 17 Jesus praying and is it a prayer anyway?

Again I went further to use another passage of scripture Rev.8:3-4 to show you that angels still do intercede.

This is not intercession my broda, if you are determined to read your own things, this is fine with me. You have prayers and you have incense. The prayers are before God already.

Since you had nothing to say on Zechariah; you went to revelations to play around.

I have touched on Xechariah. Stop lying

Why I didn't touch it with a 12ft pole ? I didn't come to this passage because you requested I concentrate on angels intercession and not human saints, so it's a passage I'm pleased to associate with as with all parts of scripture. In that passage Rev 5:8 that you brought out, you are actually showing the twenty four elders, who are depicted as the leaders of the people of God in heaven, interceding for men on earth, the people of God in heaven were once on earth weren't they? However I see you got confused on prayers and incense, maybe you can tell me what the prayers looked like different from the incense. Take a look again at the passage you quoted "Revelation 5:8 (ESV)"And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. Can you see the bold in red? what is described as the prayers of the saints? While you're at it, also take a look at Psalm 141:2 "Let my prayer be like incense offered before you...", it says let the prayers be like incense, it means let it be so sweet and acceptable, a prayer which is like incense before God is a prayer which is pleasing to God, an effective prayer, hence must have come from the humble or righteous as I have mentioned earlier. James 5:6. What is intercession or mediation in terms of prayers, isn't it the presentation of the prayers before God?

I need evidence of dead men praying for the living or angels. So far, you have zilch.

I have told you earlier how Jesus is the one Mediator between God and Man, and here in the revelations, you've seen angels and you've seen human saints sharing in proportions; that intercessory role of Jesus, by presenting prayers before the Lamb of God.

Prayers of the saints in Revelation are exactly that; prayers by the saints.

I noticed you ignored the bit about the angel casting the incense on earth. What comes to your mind when you read that? I need to pick your theology on that.

Let me ignore the last part of your post, since i do not understand what you're driving at, It seems you want to prove Jesus wrong. The essence isn't to try and win a debate by ignoring scriptures,it is to open your heart to accept truth when it's brought before you...yes, even and especially by a Catholic.

Why are you ignoring it? You are a married man if not a eunuch. You die. Since there 'communion of saints' bla de bla then your wife's still married to you. She has remarried. So she now has two husbands, one in spirit and another in flesh. Is this so because God is God of the living and not dead?

destinedtee:
@everybody : I want to ask a question about wet dreams. Is it all wet dreams that is associated with a demonic undertone?

Now let me explain myself better... For males, there is a buildup of the seed (s*emen) in the body and this is released sometimes when they sleep. Some people belief this is just a biological activity / phenomenon. My issue is that this doesn't just happen sometimes without some scenes of profanity, nudity and the likes in the dream. Are we (brothers) just suppose to take it like that. There are some dreams which I know are just abnormal (intercourse in the dream and the likes). Is it that there is a thin line between these two issues or all dreams that causes the male specie to release their seeds are plain demonic?

Secondly, there are times dreams are mixed up with some profane scenes. Get me right. A situation whereby one is already having a dream that 'really makes sense' and in that same dream, an unpalatable scene (nude scenes) just comes up. Are we to just discard the entire dream or pick up the aspects that we really think contains a message?

Hmmmm... I don't know if I have been able to express myself well.

Over to you Men and Brethren...

This is my understanding
As a born again, you are a child of God in and out of dreamland. For this, dream activities should be governed by the same principles that govern your waking life. For this, there is something detestable about dreaming drinking human blood or gouging out eyes and frying them with garlic, or say sodomizing people.

While the scientific community has accepted wet dreams as a normal biological process and probably healthy, I regard sex in the dream and out of marriage as sin.

It is also commonly understood that preoccupation with sex, lust and porn all increase the frequency and the intensity of these dreams. This means we are not totally helpless against the content of our dreams. For this I don't think Christians should accept wet dreams as natural.

ifenes:
I hope to never reach your level of IQ. I mean no disrespect lol.

Please,do not take all my jokes too serious. I wish you all the best during your holidays.

Too much ambition breaks a man. I respect that

Aim lower

Syncan:
Now let me summarize things thus:

Vooks (Non Catholic): Angels have never prayed to God for men

ayoku777(Non catholic): Angels did pray to God for men, but stopped after Jesus became the One mediator.

Catholic Church teaching: Angels did pray and still do pray for men.

I agree with ayoku that angels did intercede for men, his examples are apt and solid. You dismiss Zech.1:12 were an angel interceeded for men by claiming that Jesus is the angel, but that's not what scripture says, for scripture never mentioned anything of such, rather we see in Zech.2:3-4 were another angel came to the first angel and told him "Run, speak to this young man, saying...". It cannot be an angel giving Jesus command like that to speak to the young man na haba. They were both angels and it clearly shows that the first angel prayed for men. Again the meaning of what Jesus meant in Matt 18:10 is simply as ayoku777 posited, he has used several examples to support that stand and I agree with him. However he failed it where he brought in an anti-scriptural claim that they have ceased to be before God, for nowhere in the entire scripture did you ever hear that angels of little children stopped being before God. Rather you even see them more as recorded in Rev. 8:3-4 : "[An] angel came and stood at the altar [in heaven] with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God".

As per your problem with dead humans, all I can tell you is, if you believe Jesus when he said that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are living, then you'll believe that Mary, Peter, Paul, the Martyrs and other saints who died in Him are living. The living pray, and the effectiveness of the prayer of the living depends on how close you are to God. The prayer of the righteous avails much James 5:16, who is sure to be more righteous than those who have won the crown of glory already? In Christ we all relate, we that are here and those who have gone to meet him. This is different from necromancy, even a mere check on the meaning of the word will tell you.

Nothing gives me great joy than when Catholicism runs to Revelation to support angels intercession.

Let's look at it in detail.
The angel offers incense
Incense rises up TOGETHER with prayers
Incense =/= prayers or at the very least they are not in this verse.

What happens NEXT?

Revelation 8:5 (KJV)
And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast it into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake.

Did the angel cast down to earth the prayers?

And finally, has it occurred to you that the prayers are already in heaven before the very throne of God?
There are two instances of prayer and incense in Revelation and am ever amazed at how Catholicism cherry picks which if the two to prop their doctrine. Let's look at the other one;

Revelation 5:8 (ESV)
8 And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.

Why won't you touch this with a 12ft pole? Because the prayers are offered by the 24 Elders who are simply a figure for the body of Christ. I hope you don't imagine they are some special creatures in heaven


Oh the argument about dead and the living! You are predictable.
Would you share your wife with another man?
Supposing you committed sepukku and your wife remarried. Would she be married to two men, one in purgatory and the other in Lagos?

ifenes:
Relax! Shouldn't you be in a church building at this time on a Sunday? The reason you cannot learn from me is simple- you are not at that level yet

I estimate that it would take you another 1B years before your generation can approach my IQ. This is assuming you won't be naturally selected outta genetic pool

ifenes:
That's interesting! About time you knew Jesus is pagan too.

I know all about it. The day I will learn anything from you I will commit sepukku as I will have disgraced all Homo sapiens
Here is a book for you; Caesar's Messiah