₦airaland Forum

debosky: Only by outright rejection of the very salvation offered by Christ can a Christian (now a former Christian by his rejection) ever become subject to the law.

i don't even see that person being subjected to law if he was never under the law prior to becoming a Christian (accepting Christ). e.g. a gentile. unless he now chose to subject himself to the law.

debosky: Even in the event of an 'unrighteous Christian' arising, the recourse is still not to the law, and certainly not to Deuteronomy 28, which describes curses/punishments intended to scare/dissuade people from sinning.

A Christian who, by definition, has been redeemed from the curse by the death of Jesus does not suddenly become subject to the curses in Deuteronomy 28 because he commits a sin or a number of sins/acts 'unrighteously'. Only by outright rejection of the very salvation offered by Christ can a Christian (now a former Christian by his rejection) ever become subject to the law.

Firstly it is the Spirit that convicts a Christian of sin and unrighteousness, not the law of Moses.

Secondly, the route back to righteous acts (not righteousness) is also not through the law of Moses. The erring Christian is 'corrected' gently by those who live by the Spirit (not by the law of Moses).

correct. my view exactly.

Ihedinobi: Do you have any disagreements?

you have explained what you meant by 'unrighteous Christian'. the only outstanding now is the bit where you said Deuteronomy 28 applies to (unrighteous) Christians.

Bidam: nope.the law of the Spirit of Life in Christ has set me free from the law of sin and death.

Okay then. welcome to the club

Ihedinobi: @Zikkyy

I'm waiting on you. Or is your answer the same as Goshen's?

i have difficulty relating your explanation to our discussion. am not willing to take on a new topic. i do one topic at a time. maybe i still don't understand what you are getting at.

if you can guarantee we stay on topic, you have a yes answer from me.

Bidam: No one is disputing his election by grace..but shall we continue to sin that grace may abound?

is it the mosaic law that will stop you from sin?

Bidam: THIS IS AN ERROR it actually adds because we now have a full understanding why Christ came to earth.

Now that you have received full understanding why can't you just move on

Ihedinobi: @Zikkyy

Do you understand and agree with the idea that "we Christians are saved, being saved and yet to be saved"?

Please explain. Only then can I understand. Thanks

Ihedinobi: That being so, there are times when the law may apply to a Christian, such times as when he acts unrighteously, no? If that is true, then Deuteronomy 28 is meant for Christians.

Please be careful to ascertain that we disagree and where we do before you respond to this post if you are going to call me out again.

I do disagree on the bold, partly because I don't understand what you mean by unrighteous Christian and partly because I don't understand why a Christian that falls to temptation of sin will now be judged/condemned under the mosaic law.

Ihedinobi: Now, when the Perfect comes, the imperfect or incomplete or shadow fades back into it since it derived from It. Now, if this is so, those who live by the Perfect will not contradict the imperfect, yes? On that, I insist that we are agreed. Now, if the Perfect says no more than "Love everyone", should it be strange that when someone is stealing or sleeping with women without any discrimination or things like that, another should say to him, "you say that you love, and we know that love fulfills the law and the law says that this and that is unrighteous and wrong and you do these things.

No wahala

Ihedinobi: So let me make this clear: there has only ever been one Law. That Law is Christ. It is the "pattern" that God showed to Moses in the mountain and commanded him to model what we call Judaism after. The "law of Moses" then was patterned after it. And if it was, it did not contradict it. But if it was only patterned after it, then itself was not the perfect Law, but merely a copy or a shadow.

No wahala

Ihedinobi: My word! It is impossible to agree with you people, is it not?

my brother na so I see am. Sometimes we have to disagree to agree. So don't be annoyed

Ihedinobi: What are you saying that is so different from what I am saying?

To be honest, we are saying just about the same thing, except for the part where keep going back to the mosaic law for support.

Enigma: @Zikky

How do you interprete the passage below?

1 Cor 9

That just Paul proving his right to support. His reference to some human practices and mosaic law by highlighting the underlying principle behind them was to show that his request is not abnormal.

Ihedinobi: This is not necessarily the same as putting oneself back under the Law. Under the Law, we are obligated to obey God, under Grace we're not. But in both cases, the things that please God are made known to us and those things are spiritually the same under both conditions.

Therefore, when I find myself in contravention of Moses' law, I shall also find that I am in contravention of Christ for God does not change in what He wants, there is no shadow of turning with Him.

what i am unable to understand is why you insist on holding on to a law you obviously don't need. If Under grace i am better able to obey God, why hold on to the mosaic law? it's not like there is a command missing in the law of Christ that can be fulfilled under mosaic law. please correct me if am wrong, but the impression i get here is that we can only be sure we are on track only when we measure our activities using the commands in the mosaic law as the standard.

MostHigh: On point.

This man, you still dey here

Ihedinobi: This is what the Gospel is: that the law is no longer above us demanding and threatening, rather it is within us as righteous desires. It is now our nature, no longer obligation, to do the things that are right and please God.

You should understand that when you make the transition from the text in red to the text (blue), the text in red is no longer relevant to you. If you continue to hold on to it, then you can never fully transit to that state where doing things you find in the law becomes a nature. If you are successful in making that transition (doing away with text in red), you are no longer living by the mosaic law. You should understand that it is no longer the Mosaic law that is within us as righteous desires that we now obey. The mosaic law is (using your words) 'demanding and threatening' and you cannot change it.

Ihedinobi: The right use of the Law for the Christian is to ensure that he is not breaking with his true character.

This amounts to going back to your vomit. Using the Lagos traffic law example, this will be me using the requirements of the Lagos traffic laws to ensure i am not compromising on the my principle of ensuring the safety of other road users. The day the Lagos traffic law begins to shape/influence my behavior on the road is the day i decide to do away with my principles.

Ihedinobi: The right use of the Law for the Christian is to ensure that he is not breaking with his true character.

when i begin to measure my Christian behavior using the mosaic law, then the law written in my heart will be rendered redundant/irrelevant.

Goshen360: We're not of them that peddles the word for profit. Treasurer, open your mouth and the Living God shall fill it.

MostHigh: 23 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and PASTORS, you hypocrites! You are collecting tithes. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should not have practiced the latter, and neglected the former. 24 You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel

can you please explain the word law and justice above in the right context

pls pls pls no quotations from paul

try and use the masters words more often.

This man, you don change the format of ya question? why

Pastor Goshen, all this ya teachings dey result in too much arguments, e be like boys (& girls) no dey in the mood for this ya kind of teachings o! people get too much issues to sort out. you see the way the prosperity loving crew dey attack you left right and center e be like you go change strategy and dish out some nice teachings on prosperity maybe you fit even receive some cheque via postal mail to keep the ministry going am just advising as your able treasurer. inflows have not been encouraging o!

obadiah777: [img]http://74.91.19.186/attachments/1085943_closed_jpgf8f988d58b725e9fd370131869aaaf9b[/img]

Lol! I no fit shout

MostHigh: Wrong

Christ obeyed the mosaic law willingly and not through any coercion
Which one come be your own?

Are you Jesus?

MostHigh: 23 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and PASTORS, you hypocrites! You are collecting tithes. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should not have practiced the latter, and neglected the former. 24 You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel.

1. Can you see the phrase more impoertant matters of the LAW in the above statement?

Yes, i can

MostHigh: 2. Can you see the phrase law/justice in the above statement?

Yes, i can

MostHigh: 3. Is the law not judgement?

If you say so

MostHigh: I am sure you cant being a desciple of paul

This na bad belle

MostHigh: I am expecting your response to be pauline pls suprise me and quote Yashua if you can

i hope i did not disappoint

MostHigh: see as you expose your vain thoughts for all to see.

It's good na. i have nothing to hide

MostHigh: Do as I do should be the way (Do as yashua do)

i want to ask, do you have plans of having ya self nailed to a cross in the near future

MostHigh: From the above it is clear that yashua obeyed the mosaic law to the end

i can see you made up ya mind to obey mosaic law thereby ignoring Christ law. so when are you having your next burnt offering service? i need to visit you. i want to witness it and if possible record it so generations to come can see what a burnt offering service looks like

MostHigh: MORE CONFUSION

Lol! am not sure you read my post. you must have programmed yaself to respond in a particular manner to my posts

Alwaystrue: @Image123,
Thus looking in the mirror as a renewed christian, we see Jesus in us. The day I got understanding of this, I now understand why the Grace Jesus gave us is priceless.

you people are as confused as ever. if you look at the law, you will not see Jesus o! you more likely to see Moses ...and if you are unlucky what you see is an hypocritical paharisee if you want to see Jesus look in the revised law instead

Image123: The law is like a mirror, showing us our faults and what we should do.

you are either confused or you are deceiving yourself. oga image123, you mean you need an incomplete law to show you your faults okay for those faults not covered by the law (see Mathew 5 for sample), tell me how the law will 'mirror' you (pardon my grammar ) and tell us the solution provided in the law (mosaic). You can see you are deceiving yourself you better move up to the next level, come join the happening guys & gurls in Christ

Image123: What we need to KNOW about the law whatever law(whether found in Genesis or Revelation) is that it is given to show us the truth. It is given that all men may stand guilty as it were.

Now that you found the truth, why are stuck to a law that was given to show you the truth? abi you never recover from the shock you better move on by taking the next step (Jesus is calling you )

Image123: BTW, the laws found in new testament are more difficult and even impossible to keep by our strength, compared to those found in the OT.

so this is why you chose to remain old school? lazy man

Image123: It is Jesus that can wash us by His grace, word and blood. That's what makes the new covenant/agreement better.

...you agree that there is a new covenant/agreement and it is better. that's good

Image123: The law is like a mirror, showing us our faults and what we should do. But it is faulty in that it cannot help us.

Image123, you are not a serious man o! so you even know the mosaic law cannot help you i.e. it is not a law for you, so why the do or die approach to defending a usefulness you know was never there you know you have been defending it as if your means of livelihood depends on adherence to the mosaic law

Image123: All the commands from Genesis to Revelation are rooted in love, and God is love.

so why not allow love take control instead of this ya mechanical approach to obedience if you allow a love driven approach to obeying God's command, you will not even remember that there is a mosaic law somewhere. Only those peeps deceiving themselves or forcing themselves to obeying God commands remembers the mosaic law. You know the law was meant for evil doers. Do you belong to that camp?

MostHigh: My response to the law is based on obedience

Response to both laws (Christ & Mosaic) is based on obedience. The difference? Obedience to Christ law is driven by love while obedience to mosaic law is by force True Christians don't obey mosaic law, they obey Christ law. So where do you stand. what laws are you keeping? Christ or Moses?

Ihedinobi: True, but then if anyone has Christ, his life will not contradict the law of Moses, will it?

True, his life will not contradict the law of Moses (i believe we are talking about the 10 commandments). because elements of the mosaic law is found in Christ's law. But what the law of Moses failed to achieve can is achieved in Christ. so why go back to adopt a life based on the mosaic law, when you have a more effective law in Christ. Doing that amounts to rejecting Christ cos one cannot live by both laws at the same time. The response or approach to obedience differs.

MostHigh: what are the ordinances of this new law/order

so this is the reason you've been calling me reprobate you are thinking new set of law

MostHigh: please can you clearly tell us the difference between the law you speak about and the mosaic law?

I will try

1. Christ law is perfect (complete) -- Mosaic law incomplete
2. Christ law applies to everybody -- Mosaic law was given to the Jews
3. Motives for practicing differs
Christ law - motive for adhering/obedience to Christ's law is love.
Mosaic law - Fear being the motive for compliance (ask the regular tithers ),
3b. Christ law - Being based on love, it is no longer a burden and much easier to obey
Mosaic law - Because it is by force, it became a burden for the those subjected to the law.
4. Mosaic law focused on external acts. (the reason one can say he has satisfied the command not to kill even when there is hate in his heart)
Christ law - obedience comes from the mind/heart. actions are based on the state of the heart.

My brother check yourself o! if your response to the law is based on fear, then you are old school (the mosaic school ), For Christians that respond to Christ law (the law based on love), the mosaic law is irrelevant

MostHigh: my intention is not to derail

but to apply fire

Lol! Goshen you are in trouble o!

The guy follow you come where you come report am Lol!

obadiah777: WE HAVE PROVIDED A CONTRARY VIEW FOR A LONG TIME BUT GOSHEN IS AS STIFF NECKED AND REBELLIOUS AS THE ISRAEL OF OLD. THE MAN WILL RATHER FORBEAR THAN HEAR *SMDH*

i think you should continue to provide contrary views, that will soften the 'stiff neck'. insults will further harden the already stiff neck