₦airaland Forum

Boomark: ^Does any one know any church that give out of love from the heart?

NOT those that compel people to give 10% to a Pastor.

I think It's more of an individual/personal thing. There's no way you Will get a gathering where everyone gives out of love from the heart.

frosbel: Only sheeple will give money to the 'church system' and not to those who really need it.

Tell me, does God eat, drink or need any material things.

What is the money used for ? SMH .

You should know na. Tithers see the act as solutions to problems or to avoid one. Not really because they really want to give. They think they are smart, but pastor is way more intelligent.

Joagbaje: What of offerings or alms giving if I do these things which were also commanded under the law I'm I still in sin

You deliberately refused to listen so you can continue to argue here do you give alms & offering because its a requirement in the mosaic law? If you do then you are in bondage. Besides, some OT offerings were for atonement. Is that why you give offering today.

Joagbaje: You don't need this long epistle to pass a simple message. My point was that tithes and offerings were sources of welfare for the priests. So for Paul to liken it to the preaching of the gospel. So the question is not about money or material. They gave both for tithes and offerings.

And I showed you the nature of offerings received by OT priests. They were mainly burnt offerings. So if Paul liken OT priests welfare to those that preach the gospel, was he saying preachers of gospel should also source their welfare from tithe & burnt offerings? It is very clear that paul believed preachers can obtain source their welfare from preaching the gospel. But he did not say the nature of the welfare. Any addition to Paul's word is your own. Tithe and offerings are not difficult word to pronounce & Paul was not speaking in coded language. If he wanted the early Christians to tithe, he would have told them.

We read evidence of Paul collecting money to assist Christians in need, we read him receiving gifts, but we don't read him collecting tithe & offerings. We don't read him teaching tithe & offerings. If tithe was a spiritual principle and Christians are required to adhere to it for blessing, do you think Paul would forget to mention it? Or you think you know more than Paul?

Bidam: (1) Give the Lord first place in everything (Mt. 6:33). (2) Honor the Lord with your first fruits (Pr. 3:9-10). This means to set aside the tithe first--before all other bills and expenses. If you leave the tithe until last, God usually misses out. (3) Bring the tithe on the Lord's day (1 Co. 16:2).

This is also your personal creation. How does giving the lord first place amount to paying tithe first? Are you saying the only thing in your life that can be given to God is tithe? So you are saying that tithe is the only thing you do that is relevant to God?

Bidam: Nope.The tithe means ten percent. By comparing Ge. 14:20 with He. 7:2 we see that the tithe is ten percent of one's income.

It is your definition or that of your pastor. God did not define tithe as 10% of one's income. Genesis & Hebrews did not say anything about 10% of one's income. You and your pastor are the one adding to God's word.

Bidam: Under the Law tithing was commanded. Under Grace, we do not tithe legalistically, but because we love the Lord

Who are you deceiving? If you do not tithe legalistically, you will not be justifying your tithe practice by reference to the law. If you tithe because you love God, you should be looking to your heart to justify your action.

Bidam: Everyone is expected to tithe to the Lord one tenth of their income.

Says who? Your pastor?

Image123: BTW, you seem to have a lot of anger in your blood, dump the tension.

Dump wetin? and for your info i just gone a notch higher, sorry two notch higher

Image123: 1Co 16:2 Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.
The phrase "as God hath prospered him" is indicative of proportional giving.

Paul had pronunciation problems abi? tithe is a russian term and paul had difficulty pronouncing the word tithe to the extent he referred to tithe as "as God hath prospered him" when he could easily have told them to set outside their tithe and save some ink. you see yourself

Image123: Tithes fit this phrase like a round peg in a round hole.

for your mind

Image123: Tithing was not bondage for the Jews, the keeping of the law was bondage for them, and it is for anybody without God's grace. The pharisee heartily chirped about giving tithes of all that he possessed, it seems it was a piece of cake for him. For you today, what does Jesus have to say?

Tithing was not bondage for the Jews and they needed constant reminders? your malachi 3:10 was because the jews were happy paying tithe abi?

Image123: Tithing does not negate freewill giving. Tithing can be done with freewill. Nobody is condemning freewill giving or even giving to the poor.

Rendering a tenth of your income to your pastor does not negate freewill giving only when it is a personal decision, and that is what i have been promoting. It cannot be preached! you cannot encourage people to give a tenth, you can only encourage them to give! allow them to decide the proportion of income they want to give. that's how you encourage freewill giving. if the person decides 10%, no problem.

Image123: Nobody is condemning freewill giving or even giving to the poor. [size=13pt]Newsflash, we also do it[/size].

Na you sabi

Image123: Here was my question; Gosh, what is the old covenant? try to be concise thanks.

A covenant is simply an agreement. The old covenant is simply the old agreement. This is almost all that is needed, it is the foundation that anybody even a child can understand. It is on it that every other thing rests, as it were. Missing this simple meaning can prove costly to understanding and lead one into long and vain jangling.

why you no tell Goshen say na dictionary definition you want? in fact when you told him to be concise, why you no talk say you want a definition from the Concise Oxford English dictionary you no sabi ask question oh

christemmbassey: @ all anti-tithers, if all the pro-tithers are affraid to answer my question, can you guys try? Blessings.

what was ya question again? even though i no be anti-tither sha

Bidam: ..ask gosh..he is a master copy and paste con artist..i stole that technology from him..i also digest the materials before pasting OK? i don't copy paste ANY HOW..

you finally confessed to being a master in copy & paste. we thank God for your life

Image123: It's more accurately tithing according to the prophets. If you consider Malachi as law, why leave out Genesis na? Just an aside anyway.

you see yourself which Genesis are you referring to? is that somebody's name? We all know Malachi operated under the law. Lets take another look at your favorite mathew 23:23 and substitute law:

"Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the lawprophets"

It makes sense to you abi?

Image123: Mal 3:8 Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings.
Tithe belongs to God, we both know the tithe being referred to here, so quit deceiving the gallery. It is the tenth given to the minister in God's house.

and i thought Bidam was confused in the bible, from genesis to Revelation, there was only one 'God's house' that received tithe, and that was the temple located in Jerusalem and it was the only house of God you will find ministers in attendance do you know of any other house of God in the bible with physical (human) ministers in residence? not to talk of receiving tithe? If you know of any kindly provide that detail in your response to this post. So if the tithe being referred to in Malachi 3:8 was the tenth given to the priest (minister) in the temple (God's house) at Jerusalem (rendered by his brother levites, not even the people of Israel), what value is your post above adding to the discussion?

Image123: Tithe belongs to God,

We all know that God did not say tithe belong to him we hear statement like this when a pastor is in the (greed induced) mood for 'milking' the congregation sadly, it appears they permanently 'high' on greed

Image123: Where do you find the bolded in the quote? We can learn from others, release yourself from your pride. Like i said, we can learn from ants, and like Ola reminded us, Jesus told us to learn from lilies and grass and birds. Here is Matthew 23v23 again so that we are clear what was said. Observe the last phrase carefully.
Mat 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
What we truly see in Matthew 23 is Jesus addressing His disciples and others.
Mat 23:1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,
Mat 23:2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
Mat 23:3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.
Beware of 'PRIVATE INTERPRETATION'.

You continue to deceive yourself with the belief that Christ said tithe should be done. I don't think anybody is denying that Christ did not say "these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone". But in that same verse he showed his target audience that what should not leave undone was something to be done according to the law:

"Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law"

Let for the purpose of this discussion agree that he was also talking to the Disciples, tell me how that change anything? The Disciples were also expected at the time to comply with the requirements of the law. in mathew 23:23, did Christ say Christians should tithe to the 'house of God' (especially when the house of God is now the believer himself)? did Christ say you tithe to pastor (knowing the levitical priesthood was still in place)? did Christ in mathew 23;23 redefine what constitute tithe, how it should be paid and who benefits from tithe paid by the target audience? if he did not, what is the relevance of mathew 23:23 to Christians? tell me image123

Image123: "Apply" is used in the sense of being "useful". No scripture is useless but All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable, except you do not believe that the instances you are referring to is not scripture.

Of course it's useful. what is useful in biblical tithing (under mosaic law for e.g.) is not the strict adoption of percentages, it is about contributing to the need of those dedicating their time to spreading the gospel.

Joagbaje: It's contradictory when someone says he only believes in offerings but not tithing when the two are based on same principles before the law came .

What principles is that sir? you people keep talking about principle without explaining it is that how you teach?

Joagbaje: It's contradictory when someone says he only believes in offerings but not tithing when the two are based on same principles before the law came .

I don't understand you oh. i don't know of any 'offering' before the law that was not burnt. is that the 'offering' we practice today? if someone says he believes in offerings today, am sure the offering he has in mind is not the same as the pre-law offerings.

'offerings' today is not even mandatory. Especially when it is made for the benefit of the promoters (pastor & other investors) of a registered company (called the church) what we see in the NT are donations or contributions made for the benefit of needy saints, nothing more.

Joagbaje: The major source of money into the house of God was in tithes and offerings. And paul gave the comparison .

1 Corinthians 9:13-14
Do ye not know that they which minister about holy things live of the things of the temple? and they which wait at the altar are partakers with the altar? Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel.

He said The Lord ordained it to be so.

What hath the Lord ordained to be so? Did the lord say those that preach the gospel should live of the things of the temple? or did the Lord say those that preach the gospel should be partakers with the altar? What are those things those that minister about holy things live of? and what are the stuff that get to the altar? find sample below

Leviticus 6:7-10 (KJV)
7 As the sin offering is, so is the trespass offering: there is one law for them: the priest that maketh atonement therewith shall have it.
8 And the priest that offereth any man's burnt offering, even the priest shall have to himself the skin of the burnt offering which he hath offered.
9 And all the meat offering that is baken in the oven, and all that is dressed in the frying pan, and in the pan, shall be the priest's that offereth it. 10 And every meat offering, mingled with oil, and dry, shall all the sons of Aaron have, one as much as another.

The priests and levites were beneficiaries of the cereal offerings, guilt offerings, sin offerings e.t.c and they were all burnt offerings. Are you now saying that those that they which preach the gospel should live of burnt offerings?

When the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel just as the priest of old lived of the things of the temple and what was sacrificed on the altar, he was not saying preachers should be living of burnt offerings and other stuff contributed to the temple. The only similarity is preachers being sustained through the gospel. i.e receiving sustenance via the gospel just as the priests received theirs from ministering at the temple.

Pastor Kun: You are asking too much of joagbaje, false info/doctrine is ingrained in his Dna and it flows through his blood.

Joagbaje: The major source of money into the house of God was in tithes and offerings.

Another false gospel from our man joagbaje.

Where in the bible do you find this information indicating tithes and offerings as the major source of money in the house of God? ehn joagbaje?

The commandment was for the Israelite to share give their tithe to the Levites and also share with the poor & needy. It was not even meant for the store house. The first time tithe was taken to the storehouse was during the reign of King Hezekiah. It was the King Hezekiah that gave the instruction for building a storehouse in the temple for the purpose of tithe and it was due to surplus contributions.

2 Chronicles 31:9-12 (KJV)
"Then Hezekiah questioned with the priests and the Levites concerning the heaps.
And Azariah the chief priest of the house of Zadok answered him, and said, Since the people began to bring the offerings into the house of the LORD, we have had enough to eat, and have left plenty: for the LORD hath blessed his people; and that which is left is this great store.
Then Hezekiah commanded to prepare chambers in the house of the LORD; and they prepared them,
And brought in the offerings and the tithes and the dedicated things faithfully......"

You will observe the chief priest telling the King that they had so much to eat with plenty left. there was no mention of money. In the book of Nehemiah, it was clearly stated that tithe taken to the store were agricultural produce:

Nehemiah 10:36-39 (NIV)
36 “As it is also written in the Law, we will bring the firstborn of our sons and of our cattle, of our herds and of our flocks to the house of our God, to the priests ministering there.
37 “Moreover, we will bring to the storerooms of the house of our God, to the priests, the first of our ground meal, of our grain offerings, of the fruit of all our trees and of our new wine and olive oil. And we will bring a tithe of our crops to the Levites, for it is the Levites who collect the tithes in all the towns where we work. 38 A priest descended from Aaron is to accompany the Levites when they receive the tithes, and the Levites are to bring a tenth of the tithes up to the house of our God, to the storerooms of the treasury. 39 The people of Israel, including the Levites, are to bring their contributions of grain, new wine and olive oil to the storerooms, where the articles for the sanctuary and for the ministering priests, the gatekeepers and the musicians are also kept.
“We will not neglect the house of our God.”

Tithe was state as food in the Malachi verse you love to quote

Malachi 3:10 (NIV)
10 Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, that there may be food in my house. Test me in this,” says the LORD Almighty, “and see if I will not throw open the floodgates of heaven and pour out so much blessing that there will not be room enough to store it.

So mr. joagabje, where is it written that tithe is a major source of money into the house of God?

That is not to say there was no monetary contribution for the temple maintenance; it came in the form of tax. Jews aged 20years and above are required to make annual contribution to the maintenance of the temple, and the money was not even material.

Exodus 30:11-13 (KJV)
11 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
12 When thou takest the sum of the children of Israel after their number, then shall they give every man a ransom for his soul unto the LORD, when thou numberest them; that there be no plague among them, when thou numberest them.
13 This they shall give, every one that passeth among them that are numbered, half a shekel after the shekel of the sanctuary: (a shekel is twenty gerahs an half shekel shall be the offering of the LORD.

Nehemiah 10:32 (KJV)
32 Also we made ordinances for us, to charge ourselves yearly with the third part of a shekel for the service of the house of our God;

@Joagabe, i want to believe you are now better informed, so going forward i don't expect to see you posting false info around here

Goshen360: I was going to reply bidam line by line but I took all his posts as SPAM, so I don't take him serious anymore. I was still online when he was making those comments but I felt it was waste of time talking to him.

Its spam for sure. Bidam cannot think for him/her self. You can imagine if somebody like image123 starts a blog for logging his crazy tithe theories. Bidam will go there, swallow the rubbish then copy & paste here for us to read

Bidam: The tithe is the Lord's (Le. 27:30). Ten percent of your gross income is not yours--it belongs to God

I still don't understand why you are quoting Leviticus. you guys believe there was tithing before the law na. Why not quote tithing before the law Anyways the statement above is very false. It is not stated in the bible that the tithe is the Lord's This is how God defined his tithe; the tithe that belongs to him:

Leviticus 27:30-32 (NIV)
30 “[size=14pt]‘A tithe of everything from the land, whether grain from the soil or fruit from the trees, belongs to the Lord; it is holy to the Lord.[/size] 31 Whoever would redeem any of their tithe must add a fifth of the value to it. 32 [size=14pt]Every tithe of the herd and flock—every tenth animal that passes under the shepherd’s rod—will be holy to the Lord.[/size]

I hope you can see the tithe that belongs to the Lord in the quote above any tithe that does not meet this definition belong to the pastor so 10% of your gross income does not pass God's tithe definition test and it is not yours .... it belong to your pastor

Bidam: actually here is a little copy and paste that debunks your antitithing SCAM...

What do you mean by 'little copy and paste' the other copy & paste posts you've been making are not little abi?

Bidam: At the same time Jesus, You tell us to render to You that which is Yours, the first fruits of our labor. Help us understand that payments of tithes and offerings accrue to our own benefit. It is our privilege to lay up treasures in heaven, knowing that our treasures here will not endure.

which time Jesus talk this one? Can't you see the author you are copying is not telling the truth? you are guys are so attracted to deceitful sermons/teachings, why is it due to your greed?

Bidam: Give the Lord first place in everything (Mt. 6:33). (2) Honor the Lord with your first fruits (Pr. 3:9-10). This means to set aside the tithe first--before all other bills and expenses. If you leave the tithe until last, God usually misses out. (3) Bring the tithe on the Lord's day (1 Co. 16:2).

God misses out on what exactly? so if i collect my income and spend 100% on charity you are saying God will miss out because i did not tithe to pastor? is the pastor now God? because the person i see missing out here is the pastor. Is this the kind of gospel the apostles were spreading?

Bidam: Under the Law tithing was commanded. Under Grace, we do not tithe legalistically, but because we love the Lord (2 Co. 5:14). Do you think God would ask less love, less faith, and less cheerful giving from a N.T. Christian than from a Jew under the Law? Tithing, for the Christian, is not a matter of bondage.

Have decided to respond to this copy & paste. This is a pastor talking with the intention of further confusing the already 'confused' followers. How can anybody say tithing for Christians is not a matter of bondage? It is easy for the author to say this because he is likely to be the beneficiary. if it was bondage for the jews (they did not do it out of love), how can Christians perform similar act out of love? any act that negates freewill giving is bondage! and tithing based on pastoral threat/coercion/recommendation is one of them. Have told you before, when you tell somebody that would ordinarily give 30% to give 10% you have only succeeded in legalizing that giving, cos he is giving a recommended amount and not what his heart tells him to do. same applies to the man that ordinarily can afford to give 5%, you have only succeeded in stretching him beyond his giving capability. That my friend is bondage.

Bidam: The tithes and offerings in the O.T. were used for the Temple and the Temple ministry (i.e., the priests, etc.) (Mal. 3:10). 1 Co. 9:13-14 applies this principle to the N.T. church. "Do you not know that they which minister about holy things live of the things of the temple? and they which wait at the altar are partakers with the altar? EVEN SO hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel." Verse 13 relates to the O.T. practice. Verse 14 carries this practice over to N.T. churches.

More copy & paste am only considering it cos it was a response to my post reading the the post above, what do you think is the principle? is it the type of offering or the use of the offering? if it is the type of offering, you should know that offerings that ends on the altar are mainly burnt offerings. is that what you want those that preach the gospel to live off? are you willing to give burnt offerings in addition to tithe for the maintenance of your pastor? cos that is what 1 Co. 9:13-14 says according to your interpretation.

if the principle is about the welfare of the ministers, then 1 Co. 9:13-14 should be interpreted to mean contributing to the maintenance of ministers and the contribution can come in any form. if you decide to contribute 10% of your income to pastors welfare, there is nothing wrong with that. The % you give is your personal decision and not because 1 Co. 9:13-14 says you should give 10%.

so what's your decision? interpret the bible verse to mean exactly as practice in the O.T in which case ministers are to live off the types of offerings as recorded in the O.T (mainly burnt offerings, cos that's what get to the altar) or interpret it to mean Ministers receiving benefits for their service just like the O.T priests received benefits for work in the temple.

Bidam: Under the Law tithing was commanded. Under Grace, we do not tithe legalistically, but because we love the Lord (2 Co. 5:14). Do you think God would ask less love, less faith, and less cheerful giving from a N.T. Christian than from a Jew under the Law? Tithing, for the Christian, is not a matter of bondage.

Bidam: Abraham Commenced it (Ge. 14:18-20). Jacob Continued it (Ge. 28:20-22). Moses Confirmed it (Le. 27:30). Malachi Commanded it (Mal. 3:10). Jesus Commended it (Mt. 23:23). God Commissioned it (1 Co. 9:14). Paul Conformed it (1 Co. 16:2). A study of these Scriptures shows that tithing is a scriptural principle. Abraham and Jacob tithed 500 years BEFORE the Law was instituted. Moses, Malachi, and Jesus spoke of tithing DURING the period of the Law. The Apostle Paul explained tithing AFTER the Law. Christians ought to tithe!

COPY & PASTE make you dey try to re-word the thing na, haba! i will not respond to this because it's not you talking i am not sure you even understood the stuff you copied

Bidam: ..OBEDIENCE OUT OF REGULATION PRODUCES ONLY DUTY BUT OBEDIENCE OUT OF REVELATION PRODUCES THE JOY OF THE LORD.

you have shown from your your arguments that your obedience is out of regulation, meaning you see tithing as a duty. when image123 quotes that tithe belongs to God and therefore must pay, he sees it as obedience out of regulation. If you've told us that your decision to tithe was because God revealed it to you in a dream, nobody will argue with you.

Image123: Malachi 3:10 Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.

you see yourself tithing is before the law, yet you always run back to tithing according to the law to justify your illegal practice you see yourself na

Image123: Psalms 23:1 The LORD is my shepherd; I shall not want. 23:2 He maketh me to lie down in green pastures: he leadeth me beside the still waters. 23:3 He restoreth my soul: he leadeth me in the paths of righteousness for his name's sake. 23:4 Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me. 23:5 Thou preparest a table before me in the presence of mine enemies: thou anointest my head with oil; my cup runneth over. 23:6 Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life: and I will dwell in the house of the LORD for ever.

Lol!! nothing we no go see for here you have resorted to spamming just to show activity