₦airaland Forum

debosky: Jesus is the head of the church, and the Holy Spirit teaches all things, not the Catholic Church.

I will have to align with italo on the bolded. if it is the holy spirit doing the teaching, how come we have hundreds/thousands of interpretations?

debosky: Those who call themselves 'Catholics' and 'Protestants' may disagree on many things, but tend to agree that the bible is the inspired word of God. It contains the teachings of Jesus and the apostles of the early church, and is 'unchanging'- it is not being modified or added to. Therefore, it should not be subject to the 'authority' of one church grouping......

.......Of course there are dangers to individual interpretations, which is why we should not forsake fellowship of the brethren and continue to sharpen iron with iron. Above all, we should rely on the Holy Spirit for interpretation - allowing him to teach us and bring us into greater knowledge of the Father and the Son.

I agree with this.

Allowing the church do the interpretation have its advantages though. It allows for order in the system and nobody comes to NL fighting over issues that have to do with interpretation of the scriptures. But we also have to consider the possibility of the church feeding us with false teachings.

italo: @ Goshen360 and others,

Regarding my submission that the Catholic Church should be the one to interpret God's teaching (scripture and otherwise), what specifically, is your objection to that?

well....am not Goshen360 and others, but i don't quite agree one should swallow everything dished out by the church elders. for me it all comes down to the issue of the church being seen as infallible. this is not year 50A.D, the apostles are out of the picture, so what is the church elders reading that i don't have access to? (unless you are telling me they have some documents in there that i will never get to see).

Should the catholic church be the one to interpret God's teaching? if the catholic church is the one interpreting God's teaching, there will be no other denomination. It's already too late for that so you need to rephrase your question.

Joagbaje: for example faith is aspiritual principle . Faith is a law

Romans 3:27
Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay:but by the law of faith.

From your quote, even work is a law. In a way you have succeeded in solving the issue between Goshen & Ola, while Goshen is saying Abraham exercised faith, Ola is saying Abraham actions were the result of response to Gods law. and the bible tells us the Abraham's relationship with God was based on faith, and you Jo, say faith is a law. So we can Abraham's actions were responses to the 'law of faith'. Its a simple issue with a simple solution

So conclusion: Goshen360 is very much on track while Olaadegbu is very much confused it obvious Ola is attempting to add his own laws for Abraham to comply with. and its too late for that now, Ola cannot force a dead man to comply with his laws. Ola will have to visit the other side to get Abraham to comply with his (Olaadegbu') laws

OLAADEGBU: Christians tithe under the Abrahamic covenant. This is the covenant God made with Abraham and his seed. The seed is Christ and if you are of Christ you will not hesitate to give tithes and offerings in appreciation of what God has done for you.

My friend please speak for ya self only (& maybe for Joagbaje, image & bidam). Other tithers I know of don't tithe under Abrahamic covenant. That your statement makes no sense. There is no binding rule that says you must tithe to appreciate what God has done for you. Showing appreciation can come in any form so long as its pleasing to God.

OLAADEGBU: Christians tithe under the Abrahamic covenant. This is the covenant God made with Abraham and his seed.

What is ya source for the above? Where in the bible did God made a tithe covenant with Abraham & his seed? Continue to deceive ya self

Bidam: when he lacks what to say he resort to this.

Atleast It's original. It's better than copy & paste

Image123: so you've not convinced them at home? o ma se oh. Little wonder you're always angry. God is good, enjoy.

No attempt was made to convince anybody unlike you guys they don't twist scriptures to justify their action. Why should I convince them not to tithe?

Joagbaje: No need for insult in bible discussion. Let truth speak for itself .

2 Timothy 2:24
And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,

No be my fault na you should read your posts to understand.

Anyways, my apologies. no vex

Joagbaje: I think you should take the advise also.

I already done that. I don't discourage tithers from tithing. I don't teach against tithing. I have people tithing in my house and i have never for one day told them to stop tithing. It's their call; so long as they don't try to preach it.

My fight is against false/illegal tithe doctrine preached by most pastors and repeated here by most tithers. I believe you now understand my position.

OLAADEGBU: Since we are under the Abrahamic covenant whatever Abraham did by faith to get blessed we can also do so as to get blessed. Abraham's blessings are mine.

...and somebody told you Abraham made his money by tithing (to Melchizedek) abi? continue to deceive yourself

Joagbaje: My stand is the bolder part. There will always be doctrinal differences until the unity of the faith.its been on from the early church.[s]its only the antitithers that turns discussions into tights and force.[/s] We should accept one another by christ blood and salvation . No one should be judge or condemned for the truth he believes.its God who judge hearts

i very much agree with you on this one and that is why i don't condemn tithers for tithing. if they believe it's something they want to do, they should go ahead and do it. my argument is against the illegal teaching/preaching of tithing as a Christian requirement.

Joagbaje: I don't force any idea on anyone. We live by our convictions. I've often said every man should live by his own conviction. That's what the bible teaches

Good. so keep your convictions to yourself. It is not for preaching/teaching otherwise you do more damage than good.

Joagbaje: Abraham didnt tithe once . We only have one recorded account.

That's true, melchizedek visits Abraham every month end when Abraham collects his salary sorry, harvest his produce to collect his 10% tithe

Continue to deceive yourself by adding to scriptures.

Joagbaje: The bible was clear on that . Circumcision is still required but this time ,it's a circumcision of the heart. But the principle is still on.

Colossians 2:11
In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

you see yourself when it comes to circumcision, you agree the principle is not the action itself. and you don't know it's the same for tithe? the principle is not the act of giving 10%, the principle is in what the giving of 10% represent. Hunger no dey let una see road, when it involves cash

Joagbaje: Every worshiper of God ought to pay tithe . It's an everlasting principle . It transcends dispensations.

on what ground? your post above shows the idea of tithing is your personal belief. You Joagbaje are not the one to decide for Christians you cannot force your personal belief on others (as doctrine)

Joagbaje: That doesn't mean the offerings and tithes belong to the pastor. He is only an administrator or steward over it. Money and things given in church belong to the church.

...and how come members (the church) don't have access to their offerings? if the money belong to members (Church) how come they cannot influence or decide how their offerings and tithes are used? If the money truly belong to members (church), the least i expect from pastor is to produce periodic stewardship account to the 'church' for approval/ratification. (i remember 4square gospel church was doing that). The early church had control over their giving.

Acts 6:1-6 (NIV)
In those days when the number of disciples was increasing, the Hellenistic Jews[a] among them complained against the Hebraic Jews because their widows were being overlooked in the daily distribution of food. 2 So the Twelve gathered all the disciples together and said, “It would not be right for us to neglect the ministry of the word of God in order to wait on tables. 3 Brothers and sisters, choose seven men from among you who are known to be full of the Spirit and wisdom. We will turn this responsibility over to them 4 and will give our attention to prayer and the ministry of the word.”

5 This proposal pleased the whole group. They chose Stephen, a man full of faith and of the Holy Spirit; also Philip, Procorus, Nicanor, Timon, Parmenas, and Nicolas from Antioch, a convert to Judaism. 6 They presented these men to the apostles, who prayed and laid their hands on them.

Joagbaje: You give to God through his ministers on the earth . Such as prophets, priests ,pastor etc. that's the principle . The Levites were the ministers of God in isreal at a time.

Same principle applies in the church today

1 Corinthians 9:13-14
Do ye not know that they which minister about holy things live of the things of the temple? and they which wait at the altar are partakers with the altar? Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel.

People should understand that what you are trying to say here is that giving to pastor equates to giving to God. and you support this illegal teaching by quoting 1 Corinthians 9:13-14? na wa for Joagbaje, this is not good na is that what you learnt from reading that bible verse? anyways its good you know am keeping eye on ya postings here

Image123: Anybody giving less than 10% is living on a lower level. God is not mocked.
Mar 12:41 And Jesus sat over against the treasury, and beheld how the people cast money into the treasury: and many that were rich cast in much.
Mar 12:42 And there came a certain poor widow, and she threw in two mites, which make a farthing.
Mar 12:43 And he called unto him his disciples, and saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That this poor widow hath cast more in, than all they which have cast into the treasury:
Mar 12:44 For all they did cast in of their abundance; but she of her want did cast in all that she had, even all her living.

...and who decides that the lower threshold for giving is 10%? thats how you people go about placing unnecessary burden on people. Other people gave out of their surplus because they were rich. or you don't think somebody giving 10% of his N10million monthly earnings is giving a surplus? and you don't think the poor man giving 10% of his N2,000 earning is giving from his poverty? you think it's percentages that defines giving out of surplus and giving from poverty?

Enigma: Bros, I think you mean the "etc" in that post that Zikky quoted; ok. fair enough, I am willing to grant that. But one has to set it firstly against backround knowledge and history of the poster. Second, and even more important, the statement is not a good reflection of what Jesus Christ instructed anyway. The Lord did not emphasise "ministers" at all or make that some kind of "principle".

Don't mind image123 jare. e.t.c is not referring to any saint. everything is principle now for Joagbaje, that way there will be no need for biblical proof or evidence.

Image123: But the one of these inferred are saints na, aren't they? And Jo is in no way saying that that's the only form of giving. i complained on this earlier and expected zukky who's been following the thread ardently to know better.

you don soak your brain with kparaga before coming on this thread. How did you arrive at the conclusion that 'one of these inferred are saints'? read Joagbaje's post again (below):

Joagbaje: You give to God through his ministers on the earth . Such as prophets, priests ,pastor etc. that's the principle . The Levites were the ministers of God in isreal at a time.

focus on the bolded when Jo said ministers, you think he was referring to saints? anyways when your eye don clear read the posts again, i think you were responding to some other discussion outside of nairaland cos my NL user Id is definitely not 'zukky'

Joagbaje: You give to God through his ministers on the earth . Such as prophets, priests ,pastor etc. that's the principle .

Another false gospel from Joagbaje inspired by hunger

Bidam: i now understand why someone pointed the fact that you are carnal..stay blessed bro..

you don run be that abi? no wahala

ijawkid: Zikky where u dey since??.......my right hand nigga............

i dey here o! i no go anywhere. i dey use CCTV dey monitor the activities of proponents of illegal tithing; namely joagbaje, image123, Bidam e.t.c

Bidam: For where there are two or three gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them; presiding over them, ruling in their hearts, ...mat 18 :20.

Stop deceiving your self. Did Christ come down to collect the tithe himself? if you had given it to the two or three gathered in Christ name i will understand,instead it goes to the man on the pulpit. Boomark is correct jor your pastor is your Christ.

Bidam: well to you the church might be a corporate body. NOT to me...i don't consult anyone when i give my tithes and offerings in CHURCH.In fact the offering basket is kept at the last door of the church cos we don't emphasize on offerings..if you doubt me i can invite you to the church to see for yourself. and let me clear things a bit here. God did not call me to build a church or any evangelistic outreaches.He called me to have a personal relationship with Him. But for people who don't know me to come online and say all manner of ill conceived ideas concerning me is not only appalling but preposterous. i have partnered with ministries as led by the Spirit of God. I don't just sow seeds blindly. I pray before sowing seeds and there is nothing wrong in sowing seeds for the expansion of God's kingdom.

Well @bidam, I can confirm you have not been giving to Jesus. Pastor been chopping your tithe.

Image123: ^ folks simply drop their tithes and offerings in the box, bag or container. Wonder what you're up to with this new focus?

If I make my own box or bag available, are you willing to drop your tithe in it? Who owns the bag or box you drop your tithe? Does it belong to the body of believers or the pastor? The owner of the box is the beneficiary of your tithe. And that beneficiary just might be the pastor making you a proper mumu.

Bidam: no not to pastor. to the Church..i made a ref to that scripture to tell you how the tithes gets to Jesus.

Your reference indicates you give to pastor. You are still dodging ma question. It's either you give it to body of believers (aka church) or you give to pastor. So which of these is giving to Jesus? Giving to an entity registered with the corporate affairs commission (usually with pastor as owner) is as good as giving to pastor. Abi you don't know your idea of churches are actually registered companies?so when you say the church, are referring to the body of believers? Cos I know Jesus is not a registered company.

Bidam: how did i miss this post?

na today? you are always dodging ma posts. you are attempting this one thinking you have an answer

Bidam: [b]well the church is Christ and Christ is the Church.[/b]I have received full payment and even more; I am amply supplied, now that I have received from Epaphroditus the gifts you sent. They are a fragrant offering, an acceptable sacrifice, pleasing to God.
phil 4:18

This your answer no straight o! i understand the church to be an assembly or gathering of believers. are you saying you pay your tithe by giving it to the gathering of believers in ya hood?

The reference to phil 4:8 indicates you pay by giving it your pastor. please clarify. i hope you will not miss this one o.

Bidam: I tend to disagree because the change from the Aaronic priesthood to the Melchizedekian priesthood changes only those things that are directly relevant to the Aaronic priesthood, and does not automatically eliminate the tithe. Rather, the question should be whether the Melchizedekian priesthood is one that receives tithes. We find that this priesthood indeed receives tithes, since the same passage refers to the Genesis account in which Abraham paid tithes to Melchizedek. Then, we observe that Jesus is a priest in the order of Melchizedek, which is an order priesthood that receives tithes.

You know under the 'melchizedekian' priesthood the priests collect their tithe themselves. They don't use intermediaries. How do you take your tithe to Jesus?

Goshen360: I have taught you to live by 'faith' O ye of 'little faith', how long shall I be with you ?

G.O no be my fault na you know treasury matters na my area of specialization.

ATMC: hey hey...as its written in d holy writ, if d place is far, convert it to money...do d word brother!

e be like you sabi this job pass me. No wonder our able G.O decide to do cabinet reshuffle G.O is truly spirit filled, e dey see things we ordinary members mo dey see.

Goshen360: Na everytime afraid dey catch me for you? But lemme approve you to test if you will not run away with God's money meant for advancing God's kingdom\helping the needy. In the meantime, you are ENDORSED as the treasurer but I can't give you password to my PayPal account o; you only be in charge of accountability.

Our able G.O, I no understand this kukere talk o! I used to be the treasurer of this our church. You don carry my post give woman. Na promote una promote me abi have been fired? If na promotion, I no fit do paper work o! I want a position where the raw cash will be passing through my fingers