plappville:

Take ur time to find what the name Michael means in Hebrew. Do you know that even in the Torah:
Michael is discribed in Daniel 12:21 of as "the great Prince" who will protect Gods people even during the struggle between gud and evil at the end of the world.? This matches with Rev 12:7
Jesus Himself Used this book when He was on earth.

I am going to Illustrate during the day, what it means to raise multitude with a voice. Only Jesus can do that. Not those you claim to be following him. Scripture will fit scriptures.

Gud morning house.
Since you already know what His position.

ijawkid:

And I reiterate that that verse has everything to do with michaels standing up in the last days and ressurection taking place as a result of that....its clear..........he stands up,untold great tribulations occurs and then ressurection and judgement......these are exactly what Jesus is suppose to do.....

We are not speculating,daniel says that this is what will happen in the end times,,,,,,,......

Raising ¶eople from from the dead aÑd judgÍng them to Éternal life or damnation is a job given to Jesus and only Jesus by Yahweh.....don't tell me you don't know that.............

I' ve also told you to stop comparing the petty miracles elijah and peter performed with what daniel says michael wiLl do in the end times....

This michael and his angels fought with satan and his angels...................no be moi moi be that.....that is exactly Jesus' assignment....

plappville:

You are only pretending not to be seeing the plain meaning of scripture, just like @frosbel keep blind eyes to scriptures that proved Christ preexistance.
Nothing is as worse as this. If the bible says A is A who are we to say its a let down?

Boomark:


New International Version
(©1984)
but first I will tell you
what is written in the
Book of Truth. (No one
supports me against them
except Michael, your
prince.

New Living Translation
(©2007)
Meanwhile, I will tell you
what is written in the
Book of Truth. (No one
helps me against these
spirit princes except
Michael, your spirit prince.

English Standard Version
(©2001)
But I will tell you what is
inscribed in the book of
truth: there is none who
contends by my side
against these except
Michael, your prince.

New American Standard
Bible (©1995)
"However, I will tell you
what is inscribed in the
writing of truth. Yet there
is no one who stands
firmly with me against
these forces except
Michael your prince.

King James Bible
(Cambridge Ed.)
But I will shew thee that
which is noted in the
scripture of truth: and
there is none that holdeth
with me in these things,
but Michael your prince.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
(©1995)
However, I will tell you
what is inscribed in the
true writings. No one will
support me when I fight
these commanders except
your commander, Michael.

King James 2000 Bible
(©2003)
But I will show you that
which is noted in the
scripture of truth: and
there is none that upholds
me in these things, but
Michael your prince.

American King James
Version
But I will show you that
which is noted in the
scripture of truth: and
there is none that holds
with me in these things,
but Michael your prince.

American Standard
Version
But I will tell thee that
which is inscribed in the
writing of truth: and there
is none that holdeth with
me against these, but
Michael your prince.

Douay-Rheims Bible
But I will tell thee what is
set down in the scripture
of truth: and none is my
helper in all these things,
but Michael your prince.

ijawkid:

1.....Jesus pre-existed because he was the beginning of Gods creation.........he had to pre-exist because God saw that he pre-exists like every other spirit creature in heaven,but Jesus being the first of them all....

2.....Jesus pre-existed as a spirit,a heavenly being(not part of a trinity).........he has always been the son of GOD....he is Gods First born......

3....Nobody is arguing that Jesus wasn't born as a man to live here on earth and die for us,all what we are saying is that Jesus had lived in heaven before he's descending to the earth through mary...............

Scriptural evidence proves that.....

@ john 3;13 Jesus said ::::

New International Version (©1984)
No one has ever gone into heaven except the
one who came from heaven--the Son of Man.
_____________________

John 1:18 also says a lot of Jesus' pre-existence before his descending to the earth..

King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
No man has seen God at any time; the only
begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the
Father, he has declared him.
__________________
Jesus could explain Yahweh so well not only because he was filled with Gods spirit,but also because he had lived in heaven close to his Father prior to his coming to the earth.....

chukwudi44: There is no where either in the biblical or extra-biblical canon where micheal is described as captain of angels.Rev 12:17 says micheal and his angels. It does not say micheal is the captain of all angels shikena

chukwudi44: Hebrews 1:4-8

New International Version (NIV)

4 So he became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs.

The Son Superior to Angels

5 For to which of the angels did God ever say,

“You are my Son;
today I have become your Father”[a]?

Or again,

“I will be his Father,
and he will be my Son”[b]?

6 And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says,

“Let all God’s angels worship him.”[c]

7 In speaking of the angels he says,

“He makes his angels spirits,
and his servants flames of fire.”[d]

8 But about the Son he says,

“Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever;
a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.

The above verses makes it explicitly clear Jesus is superior to angels.Heretics please repent before it is too late

chukwudi44: The bible makes clear in the book of hebrews that christ is superior to angels.Even heb 1:14 describes angels as our servants while st Paul even says we would judge the angels.That first chapter of hebrews is enough to kill this argument but you are just been dogmatic.

Hebrews 1:4-14

New International Version (NIV)

[size=14pt]4 So he became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs.[/size]

The Son Superior to Angels

5 For to which of the angels did God ever say,

“You are my Son;
    today I have become your Father”[a]?

Or again,

“I will be his Father,
    and he will be my Son”[b]?

6 And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says,

“Let all God’s angels worship him.”[c]

7 In speaking of the angels he says,

“He makes his angels spirits,
    and his servants flames of fire.”[d]

8 But about the Son he says,

“Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever;
    a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.


9 

You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;
    therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions
    by anointing you with the oil of joy.”[e]

10 He also says,

“In the beginning, Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth,
    and the heavens are the work of your hands.


11 

They will perish, but you remain;
    they will all wear out like a garment.


12 

You will roll them up like a robe;
    like a garment they will be changed.
But you remain the same,
    and your years will never end.”[f]

13 To which of the angels did God ever say,

“Sit at my right hand
    until I make your enemies
    a footstool for your feet”[g]?

14 Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?

chukwudi44:

And you are pretending not to see that there are 7 arch angels including Gabriel and Raphael mentioned in the bible because it was not explicitly stated.

chukwudi44: Heb 1:14

What are the angels then? There are spirits who serve God and are sent by him to help those who are to receive salvation.

Shee una don see the biblical description of angels.To call Jesus an angel is amongst the biggest insult yet to him.Not even the 4th century arians brought him so low.

chukwudi44:

Stop fooling yourself.we already know the seventh day adventist stand on this issue.Stop pretending you are neutral here.

If you want to hear what the bible says.I have already posted them in my last two posts on this thread.Better pay heed.

The Son of Man is not an angel. No angel was ever called a "Son of Man" (= member of the human race — with good reason Jesus’ favorite self-title). To call the Messiah an angel would be a muddling of categories. Hence scholars rightly report that the idea of preexistence for the Messiah "antecedent to his birth in Bethlehem is unknown in Judaism." The Messiah, according to all that is predicted of him in the Old Testament belongs in his origin to the human race:

"‘Judaism has never known anything of a preexistence peculiar to the Messiah antecedent to his birth as a human being’ (Dalman, Words of Jesus, pp. 128-32, 248, 252). The dominance of the idea in any Jewish circle whatever cannot seriously be upheld. Judaism knew nothing of the [literally] preexistent ideal man."[11]

To claim to "be before Abraham" (John 8:58) does not mean that you remember being alive before your birth. That is to think like a Greek who believes in the preexistence of souls. In the Hebrew thought of the New Testament one can "exist" as part of God’s Plan as did also the tabernacle, the temple, repentance and other major elements of the Divine purpose. Even Moses pre-existed in that sense, according to a quotation we introduce later. John the Apostle could also say that Christ was "crucified before the foundation of the world" (Rev. 13:. This gives us an enormously valuable clue as to the way the New Testament writers understood "preexistence."

There are multiple examples of past tenses in the Hebrew Bible which actually refer to future events. They are "past" because they describe events fixed in God’s counsels and therefore certain to be realized. Bible readers disregard this very Jewish way of thinking when they leap to the conclusion that when Jesus said he "had" glory with the Father from the foundation of the world (John 17:5), he meant that he was alive at that time. Certainly in a western frame of reference the traditional understanding is reasonable. But can we not do the Messiah the honor of trying to understand his words in their own Hebrew environment? Should not the Bible be interpreted in the light of its own context and not our later creeds?

No Preexistence for Jesus in Matthew, Mark and Luke

There is a deafening silence about any real preexistence of Christ in Matthew, Mark, Luke, Acts and Peter, and the whole of the Old Testament. Not only do they not hint at a pre-human Son of God, they contradict the idea by talking of the origin (genesis) of Jesus (Matt. 1:18) and his begetting as Son (Matt. 1:20) in Mary’s womb.[12] Note that for Arians and Trinitarians, who think that Jesus was begotten in eternity long before his conception/begetting in Mary, this would be a second begetting.[13] Luke knows nothing of such an idea. Unprejudiced readers will see (as acknowledged by a host of biblical experts) that the Jesus of Matthew, Mark, Luke Acts and Peter is a human being originating at his "begettal" and birth as do all other human persons. He has not preexisted. Matthew even speaks of the "genesis" of Jesus in Matt. 1:18.

It is a serious imposition on the Gospel of John to understand him to teach a different sort of Jesus than Matthew, Mark and Luke — one who is really an angel or God appearing as a man. Such a non-human Messiah is foreign not only to the rest of the New Testament, but to the whole revelation of God in the Old Testament in regard to his definition of the coming Messiah. Deuteronomy 18:15-18 expressly says that the Messiah is to arise from a family in Israel. The Messiah is expressly said in this important Christological text not to be God but God’s agent born to the family of Israel. All Jews who looked forward to the Messiah expected a human person, not an angel, much less God Himself! Though the Jews had not understood that the Messiah was to be born supernaturally, even this miraculous begetting was in fact predicted (Isa. 7:14; Matt. 1:23). A "pre-human" Messiah, however, is nowhere suggested.

According to Isaiah 44:24 God was unaccompanied at the original creation. Jesus in the Gospels attributes the creation to the Father (Mark 10:6; Matt. 6:30; Luke 12:28) and has no memory of being the agent in the Genesis creation. If Jesus had really been the creator of the Genesis heaven and earth, why does he have no memory of this? Why does he expressly say that God was the creator? The answer is that Jesus worked within the Jewish and biblical framework of the scriptural heritage he had received and which he "came not to destroy."

The spirit of God is available to believers. As they learn to think as God does, they will share the concept that "God speaks of things which do not exist as though they did" (Rom. 4:17). It is a mistake to confuse "existence" in the Plan of God with actual preexistence, thus creating a non-fully human Jesus. The Christ of biblical expectation is a human person, supernaturally conceived. The supreme glory of his achievement for us lies in the fact that he really was a human being. He was tempted. But God cannot be tempted (James 1:13).

The "Rock" Apostle whom Jesus appointed to "feed my sheep" has given us a marvelous lesson in how to understand the meaning of preexistence as foreknowledge and predestination. It was Peter whose recognition of Jesus as the Messiah was greeted by the excited approval of Jesus (Matt. 16:16-18). Peter and John understood that the glory which Jesus already "had" is the same glory believers subsequent to the time of Jesus (and therefore not yet born when Jesus spoke) also "had been given" (John 17:22). This means only that things which are fixed in God’s counsels "exist" in a sense other than actual existence. We must choose whether to understand the language of the New Testament as Americans or Europeans or as sympathetic to Jesus and his Jewish culture. A verse in Revelation speaks of things "being" before they were created. "They were and were created" (Rev. 4:11).[14] Their creation followed from God’s original Plan to bring them into being.

A knowledge of the background to the New Testament reveals that Jews believed that even Moses "preexisted" in the counsels of God, but not actually as a conscious person:

"For this is what the Lord of the world has decreed: He created the world on behalf of his people, but he did not make this purpose of creation known from the beginning of the world so that the nations might be found guilty . . . But He did design and devise me [Moses], who was prepared from the beginning of the world to be the mediator of the covenant" (Testament of Moses, 1:13, 14).

If Moses was decreed in the Plan of God, it makes perfect sense that the Messiah himself was the purpose for which God created everything. All things may then be said to have been created on behalf of the Christ. Out of respect for God’s revealed Plan and in honor of the human Savior, we should seek to understand his identity in the context of his own Hebrew setting.

Source

chukwudi44: Micheal is not the only arch angel.He is only the arch angel in charge of battle.other arch angels mentioned in the canonised scriptures include gabriel and raphael.as clearly stated by the books of tobit and revelation,there are seven arch angels in all.Others mentioned in some on the non-canonical books include uriel,zarapael e.t.c.

Daniel 10:13–14

13 But for twenty-one days the spirit prince* of the kingdom of Persia blocked my way. Then Michael, one of the archangels,* came to help me, and I left him there with the spirit prince of the kingdom of Persia.*

14 Now I am here to explain what will happen to your people in the future, for this vision concerns a time yet to come.”

Verse 13 makes it clear he is not the only arch angel.so when ever the term arch angel is mentioned it dosen't just refer to micheal.

Boomark: Barristers

what is the meaning of "Son of man"?

Shout is not the same blowing a trumpet.

Sound of voice is not the same as sound of trumpet.

frosbel: 3 things are clear in the bible :

1. Jesus did not pre-exist as a being , but as a purpose and plan in the mind of GOD and for the redemption of the human race.

"And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel." - Genesis 3:15

2. Jesus was begotten of the Father at a fixed time in history as a fully fledged MAN

3. Angel Michael is exactly what the bible says he is , an archangel

No amount of scripture twisting and manipulation of the bible can come to any other conclusion.

This is what happens when you base your teaching on an organisation instead of the Holy Spirit.

chukwudi44:

I insist there is nothing in that verse that suggests those people were raised by micheal. I do not deny the fact that God can use micheal to accomplish such feat but there is nothing In that passage to suggest micheal did raise them.You guys are merely speculating.

During the end times as clearly described in Revelation micheal was not the only angel assigned tasks.The other six other angels were also assigned major tasks.

Raising of people or person from the dead does not prove anyone is christ.God can always use anyone to achieve his goal.

truthislight:

you are off from this discussion as well since you have not use the bible to show that jesus did not preexist.

Your views on this issue are irrelevant to me.

true2god: The bible made it clear, Jesus christ is NOT angel Michael. Its unfortunate that some pple are comin up erroneous and unbiblical research like dis.

Let take two scenerios from the scriptures. First is the event that was recorded in Daniel 10:13. An angel was bringin an answer to a prayer but was delayed for 21days by 'the prince of persia' before angel michael came to the rescue.

The second scenario was recoreded in Jude verse 9 whereby the arch-angel michael was disputing/struglin with the devil for the body of moses. And finally the arch-angel michael told the devil, 'the lord rebuke u' b4 he was able to go with the body of moses.

The two analysis stated above highlited 5 things:
1) that angel michael was stronger than the 'prince of persia'
2) that angel michael struggles/disputed with the devil and had to invite the presence of the lord to have his way
3) that the prince of persia is different from the devil himself but both are evil spiritual forces workin against the work and pple of God.
4) that angel Michael cant be Jesus christ cos he cant be strong with 'the prince of persia' and disputed/struggled with the devil
5) that angel michael had to invite the presence of the lord (by sayin the lord rebuke u) before he could hav his way against the devil.

The book of Hebrews 1:6 said: let all the angels of God (arch-michael inclusive) worship him. The bible is clear on dis matter, even arch-angel michael worshopped him(Jesus, the son).

I think this is clear enof for any1 who is not ready to twist the scriptures in order to make a point.

truthislight:

who is doing the twisting hear?

Can you show from the bible were arrangel michael worship Jesus?

You misunderstand Jude completely and the message of respect and not to speak abusively of authority.

We should quote the bible for our stand.

My point is that archangel is a title for the leader of the angel and the leader of the angel is an only beggoten son of yahweh.

All amgels are also sons of yahweh = job 38:7

but Jesus is unique being the the "only" entity that yahweh personall created by himself while Jesus did the creation of all other things including the angels = col. 1:16,17

frosbel: ^^^^


The first ADAM was a man

frosbel:

sorry I have been a little busy recently, however you can find a useful article [url=http://www.christianmonotheism.com/media/text/1-11.%20AGENT%20OF%20NEW%20CREATION.pdf]HERE[/url]

I am not disagreeing for disagreement sake, all the evidence in scripture does not support this theory that Jesus is an angel. It's almost blasphemy !!

truthislight:

Adam is the first created person on earth while Jesus is the first person created in heaven and that is why he Jesus correspond to give the ransome for the first created person on earth.

1st man os earth Adam = first person in heaven Jesus christ chrsit.

Apart from that ^^^ jesus have nothing being the perfect person to ransome Adam.

If not that any and any other person that yahweh choses will have payed the ransome.

Afteral, all loyal angel are also perfect, and it will not have to have been only Jesus that will be capable of doing that.

plappville:

My brother in Christ, you are getting the whole thing wrong. I am not a 7th day adventist member nor a JW as some of you think.
I am only concern to believe what is written in the bible without confussing myself. I do not support anyone or whatever.
No one is perfect, we are all learning from each other, anyone here that believe he/she knows the bible too well is only decieving His/herself.
For your information, i have stated before in a thread that i worship with a Baptist church.
You may not have follow up that thread, but its less important. I personally have been asking myself several question on
this two fugures, although i haven't concluded yet, but scriptures made me believe they are similar, This means they can be ONE.

Now back to your comment in defining an angel. How will you now access this scriptures i will display below? It may be long but plz pardon me, and try to get to the end of it. Yes Angels serve God, this means they cannot accept others to serve/worship them abi? also You are aware that :
( Michael is discribed as the Captain of the Angels, Rev 12:7. He is one who stands in times of conflict for the children of Israel" Daniel 12:1). We know also that(Jesus was sent only to Israel: Matthew 15:24 He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel."

Now lets go and Look at the OT, in the book of Joshua, we can see that Joshua also saw Michael the Archangel:

Joshua 5:13-15,Joshua 6:2,Joshua 6:1

13 And it came to pass, when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted up his eyes and looked, and, behold, there stood a man over against him with his sword drawn in his hand: and Joshua went unto him, and said unto him, Art thou for us, or for our adversaries?
14 And he said, Nay; but as captain of the host of the LORD am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith my lord unto his servant?
15 And the captain of the LORD'S host said unto Joshua, Loose thy shoe from off thy foot; for the place whereon thou standest is holy. And Joshua did so.

Joshua 6:1-2 1 Now Jericho was securely shut up because of the children of Israel; none went out, and none came in.
2 And the LORD said to Joshua: "See! I have given Jericho into your hand, its king, and the mighty men of valor.

What do you "nail down" wit this account? who did Joshua saw? "The captain of the Lord's host" , and we find that it is the Lord!
Joshua worshiped him, and He did not stop Joshua in his worship. In fact, th lord actually encouraged Joshua to worship Him! isn't this very significant ?

In Reve, when John tried to worship an angel, the angel tld him not to do that: "And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellow servant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy." (Rev 19:10) We are only to worship God!

Are we just reading that Joshua saw the Lord? Joshua is told tht this ground is holy and to take off his shoes.
He is in the presence of the Lord. We als see, that this Divine Being accepted the worship and the reverence that Joshua gave him.
He actually invited Joshua to worship and reverence him! You and i know that Angels will nt accept worship at all.
When John tried to give honor to an angel, the angel stoped him.

We also see that Jesus accepted worship whe He was on earth! He accepted the worship of the people around Him (Matthew 14:33; 28:9,17; Luke 24:52; John 9:38; Hebrews 1:6).

This Divine being is of no doubt is Jesus because Jesus himself said tht no one has ever seen God and that He is the one who has comunicated with man.

John 1:18 No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.
Joshua had talked to this Divine Being face to face.

And what is the down look on Michael all about? God's plans and ways of doing things is not same as ours. Do we have to say the bible isn't plain enough with this account? Who is the Captain of the Lord's host that Joshua worshiped here? Left for you to tell me.

Peace.

chukwudi44: If Jesus is truely angel micheal then it should be wrong to worship him.So your worship angle really holds no water.

Heb 1:4-13 makes it absolutely clear that Jesus is superior to angels.If you want to abide by the biblical definition of angels,you will do well to stick to that.

chukwudi44:

So because he is to lead the battle @ the time of the end make him the captain of angels? Micheal is clearly stated as not been the only arch angel.Where did you read that he is the captain of all angels?

chukwudi44:

His name could have been nweke or bayo or whatever prior to his incarnation but the fact remains Jesus was far superior to angels and he is certainly not angel micheal who is clearly stated to have been an angel

truthislight:

where did you get this from that there are many arch angels?

There is only one arch angel.

Dont let the trinity to blinding you.

truthislight:

you dont seem to learn and learn well.

Arch angel means the learder of the angel.

A commander/learder of the "armed forces" does not need to be one of the registered soldiers in rank like our president are.

plappville:

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of
the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
In this verse actually, there are two possible meanings to the text: 1) it seem to us that it is the archangel that is shouting and not Jesus.
(2) the archangel could be shoutin for Jesus or (2) Jesus could be doing the shouting Himself and using the voice of an archangel because He is the Archangel.

Now lets see what Christ said when He was on Earth in John 5:25-29. I will take only verse 25.

John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall
hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

Honestly, if we compare the two scripture texts above, we see a tight case for supporting seeing Michael as Jesus.

We ve seen that ther were two possible meanings to: "the Lord Himself shall come down from Heaven with a commanding shout of an archangel's voice" 1 Thessalonians 4:16. They are: meaning (1) stated above or meaning (2) But for you which one is?

Lets look at John 5:25,28: "the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God". Equally saying (they will hear Jesus shouting abi?)
In 1 Thessalonians, its the archangel's voice, but in John (5), it is the voice of the Son of God!
One cannot be wrong and the other right. The bible does not contradict itself.

Also, both Thesalonians and John we see that the voice causes the "resurrection of life".
The dead in Christ will rise whn they hear His voice!
This is the same event it points that Jesus and Michae must be the same person. Isn't this plain enough?

Na bible talk am not anyone. It does not contradict itself.

truthislight:

if you ahve been following the thread you will not be making an emotional rant.

The word arch angel means the leader of the angels, learn and stop shouting snd confusing yourself.

Your main interest in not Jesus, cus to you, Jesus is a piece of bread, but your fear is the trinity dogma, because you fear that if it is seen that Jesus is an anrc ahgel your lies of the trinity is destroyed to the person that have come to know this truth.

truthislight:

my friend, from the scriptures above what did the angel called michael?


"but Michael your prince"
^^^
this is a reference to the prince of the people of daniel, and Daniel was a Jew.

Who is the prince of the people of Daniel(Israel)?

isaiah 9:6
"he shall be called "prince" of peace"

so, the prince of the people of Daniel(is michael = Jesus christ)

and it is he that stands for "his" people.