frosbel:

2 things :


1. He had the name of GOD in him , but no names mentioned, though this could have been Michael. Also having the name of GOD in him desigantes the level of authority granted to him by GOD for the purpose or representation.

2. There are other archangels and chief princes, Michael was one of them, not the leader of them.

If Michael is not the leader which other Angel did the Scripture told us did greater things than michael?:
Still in : Isaiah 63:7-9

Ubenedictus: hahaha, those who compiled the xtian bible say tobit is part of it, if it isnt in ur bible dat means ur bible is not complete, or maybe u are nt a xtian dat is y u dont have some of d books of d xtian bible

is that book a teaching by the apostle of christ?

The NT is a teaching by the apostles of christ.

Mark and luke are history.

So, which apostle wrote the tobit?

Ubenedictus: u claim to be a xtian yet u cant talk like one, a disgrace, let ur word b season with salt, try and present whatever u tink d truth is with kindness.

thank you. But keep it to yourself.

your rcc claim to be christian but burnt people alive in fire.

Jesus did not do so with the pherisees that change God's word in his day but call them "hypocrite, sons of vipers"

if you dont have a hatred for those that twist God's word, well then i do, and i detest it with passion.

Are you and Chukwudi not birds of the same feathers?

You both feed from the lies of the rcc that you no longer abhor lies but feed on it.

Next you will say that the rcc "wrote the bible"

keep you fraudulent advice to yourself, i dont want such peace with people that twist God's word, it pains and anoinds me, not to talk of all those that you and your rcc have turned to atheist in this world.

How should i talk to a liar, call him a friend or a brother? God forbide, i hate lies and a liar can not be my friend.

Coming to and open forum to twist the bible is it serving the purpose of God or of the devil?

Liars will not not inherit God's kingdom.

Ubenedictus: really? Has it come to dis? Church insults? I thought u could rise above that. Maybe i was mistaken!

mistaken for what?

You will not speak out agaist lies but feed on it and turn people to atheist and wish us to be in peace? What peace ?

Even the blood of the righteouse people that have been killed cries out for vengence how much the living seeing the lies that "you" and co are capable of! We should all keep quiet and pretend that all is well.

If i do, will yahweh also keep quiet?

If you dont know, better know now that i hate and detest a deceit and will call a spade a spade.
*sigh*

Ubenedictus: one of the foremost princes, that implies that there are other foremost prince!
Beside chukwudi claims to be using d original language which is aramic, if u wish to be honest u shuld check out his claims and if u can find proof that the aramic didnt say so pls paste it. Name calling and church bashing isn't a way to debate, show us that chukwudi claim as regards d aramic are wrong. Chukwudi didnt say d latin translation he said d aramic, i really dont see d reason y u are talking abt d rcc here!

if you have followed this thread and have red all the post you will have known the @Barrister have dealt with this frud you and chukwudi have resorted to.

Infact, you are a west of time.

frosbel:


No, that is the standpoint of JW not the bible.

Hear the bible out :

Hebrews 1 :

V4 - "...having become as much better than the angels, as He has inherited a more excellent name than they.

v5 - "For to which of the angels did He ever say, 'You are my Son, today I have begotten You.'? And again, 'I will be a Father to Him and He shall be a Son to Me.'?

v6 - "And when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says, 'And let all the angels of God worship Him.'

v7 - "And of the angels He says, 'Who makes His angels winds, and His ministers a flame of fire.'

v8 - "But of the Son He says, "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, and the righteous scepter is the scepter of His kingdom.


NO ANGEL Would have qualified to die for the sins of MAN.


Jesus Christ, our beloved Lord and Saviour came in flesh and blood, he was MAN like you and me , only that his Father is GOD and he is now glorified and exalted above all power and authority in heaven and earth.


"For this reason he had to be made like his brothers in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people." - Hebrews 2:17

you will soon contradict the bible with what you are doing.

Did you read this below that you posted :

frosbel:
"For this reason he had to be made like his brothers in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people." - Hebrews 2:17

^^^
christ and the angels are brothers

It is high tim you cool down and read again.

If christ and the angels are brothers i wander what your argument is?

I said that that reference is to who the greatest of them is, you said no, but ended up posting that they are brothers. Lol.

My friend, you need to cool down.

This things are all writen for our own understanding and benefit.
Peace.

Ubenedictus: and becos d minister of defense is a commander does that make him d president?

i dont understand what you mean here.

jesus does not fit into your descriptions cus His role are so versatile.

The cherubs are foremost princes but they are constantly befor Yahweh, so, though they are also high ranking they dont play the role that Jesus plays.

1. Jesus played a part in the ransom of man from Abraham till Israel.

2. Jesus appeared as the messaiah.

3. Jesus payed the ransome with is life.

4. Jesus with is angels forth battles in heaven.

5. Jesus and his angels will execute the wicked at the end of this system of things

6. Jesus will rule for a thousand years.

Jesus have angels that are under him and fight battles with him.

The high ranking cherubs are constantly befor Yahweh.

Though the cherubs are high ranking angels, they dont fit into the role that christ/the archangel plays.

[quote author=truthislight]

you will soon contradict the bible with what you are doing.

Did you read this below that you posted :



^^^
christ and the angels are brothers

Lol.


It is you who should cool down, the 'brothers' bit was referring to the Jews and human beings as a whole not angels.

plappville:

Daniel 10:13) 13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.

Michael is also our prince!

Daniel 10:21) But I will shew thee that which is noted in the scripture of truth: and there is none that holdeth with me in these things, but Michael your prince.

If Michael is our prince, then maybe, the other prince or princes are nt our prince!

And Scripture says Michael is the great prince tht protects God's people.

And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. Daniel 12:1

Michael is not just a prince, He is the great prince, the Prince of Peace, the Prince and Savior, and also the prince of the kings of the earth!

you have a good take their sis.

Michael was contending with other foremost prince that are of a different camp = satan.

Looking at it from this way clears out things for all to see.

plappville:

So who did Paul say He is?

1 Corinthians 10:1-4) Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea, all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea,
all ate the same spiritual food, and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, "and that Rock was Christ". Did Paul made mistake here?

frosbel did not arrived at his stance from using scriptures, asking about what paul says does not matter to him.

frosbel:


So simple and yet you miss the point .


"For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first." - 1 Thessalonians 4:16


1. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command
2. with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God
3. dead in Christ will rise first


Obviously Jesus commands the dead to rise up while the archangel blows the last trumpet.

"in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed." - 1 Corinthians 15:52

" And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other" - Matthew 24:31

the archangels voice is Jesus voice, agreed.

Why will he have an archangels voice if he is not the archangel?

plappville:

Yes "one of the chief princes shows there are other princes but they are never refarred to as Michael. His role is unique, He leads other Angels.

And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. Daniel 12:1

I repeat, Michael is not just a prince, He is the great prince. why is He the great prince?

ofcoures, michael is a great prince, the prince of peace.

The prince for the people of Daniel.

The prince of Israel.

The prince that will stand up at the end for us all.

The prince that will call the dead to life.

The army command that will and has executed Yahehs battles.

Let them deny Jesus the recongnition of what he has put in to save mankind.

Let them deny his effort and suffering from OT to NT.

I will not deny him this recognition of his great works.

I appreciate every bit of what he has put in for me and will ever put in.
Am thanking yahweh for this great prince.

frosbel:

2 things :


1. He had the name of GOD in him , but no names mentioned, though this could have been Michael. Also having the name of GOD in him desigantes the level of authority granted to him by GOD for the purpose or representation.

2. There are other archangels and chief princes, Michael was one of them, not the leader of them.

can you show from the bible that there are other archangels without resorting to fraud and lies?

There is one leader of Yahweh's army and not divid and rule like you wish.

truthislight:



frosbel did not arrived at his stance from using scriptures, asking about what paul says does not matter to him.

If He must be truthful with the scripture, He has to tell me if God sent two being to follow the Israelites. In the sense that Paul was talking of a different being from the One Yaweh told us. Both Exodus and
Corinthians account Speak of One being that followed the Israelites, Since God gave them a sound warning:
"Beware of Him and obey His voice; do not provoke Him, for He will not pardon your transgressions; for "My name is in Him"
This shows that this ANGEL has the authourity to execute anyone that disobey His command.
Is this just an Angel like others? Frosbel will tell us what GOD means.

truthislight:

ofcoures, michael is a great prince, the prince of peace.

The prince for the people of Daniel.

The prince of Israel.

The prince that will stand up at the end for us all.

The prince that will call the dead to life.

The army command that will and has executed Yahehs battles.

Let them deny Jesus the recongnition of what he has put in to save mankind.

Let them deny his effort and suffering from OT to NT.

I will not deny him this recognition of his great works.

I appreciate every bit of what he has put in for me and will ever put in.
Am thanking yahweh for this great prince.

The Bible says:
This is the great prince that protects God's people.
This is the Prince of Peace.
This is our Prince and Savior.

And I say:
Maybe, the other prince does not protect God's people.
Maybe, the other prince is not a prince of peace.
Maybe, the other prince is not a Savior of God's people!
Some of NL believe that Only JW see this scriptures. I saw them and i agitate to know what they mean.

I am afraid to say that you have been misled by your organisations.

Jesus is nowhere called an angel, he is the Son of GOD and Messiah.

None of the apostles who knew Jesus personally ever suggested that he might have been an angel in past times.

Also , if Jesus was Michael , which we know he was not, who was performing the tasks of Michael to fight for and defend Israel.

Hey! this thread is getting tooooooo looooong! No accepted answer yet. Abi make me draw poll ni?

frosbel: I am afraid to say that you have been misled by your organisations.

Jesus is nowhere called an angel, he is the Son of GOD and Messiah.

None of the apostles who knew Jesus personally ever suggested that he might have been an angel in past times.

Also , if Jesus was Michael , which we know he was not, who was performing the tasks of Michael to fight for and defend Israel.

thisare your own opinion and you have your freedom of speech so use it, its your own opinion.

Can anybody control your speech for you? No.

So why should your own freedom become a compulsion for others?

However, the scriptural evidence are there though your opinion will not let you to see it.

How will you even be able to see it if you dont "accept" the truth that Jesus preexisted?

Its your life, live it as you please.

Peace.

truthislight:

thisare your own opinion and you have your freedom of speech so use it, its your own opinion.

Can anybody control your speech for you? No.

So why should your own freedom become a compulsion for others?

However, the scriptural evidence are there though your opinion will not let you to see it.

How will you even be able to see it if you dont "accept" the truth that Jesus preexisted?

Its your life, live it as you please.

Peace.

My guy you are not presentin your opinion but wat JW made u to believe and accept as bible 'truth'. This same believe was not held by earlier JW members of Rutherford or Russel's era,

this same teaching by Jw can still change tomoorow on the person of Jesus. Do u knw dat JW once called Jesus the great appolyon? Ask your elders if this teachin was held before or not.

Is arch angel michael not an angel again? Or is he a special angel differnet from others? Yes he is still an angel. God said: 'let all the angels worship the son' (includin angel Michael), 'he is made better than the angels (includin arch angel michael)

At times i wonder if Hebrews chapters 1 is omited from NWT. Na waoooo!

true2god: My guy you are not presentin your opinion but wat JW made u to believe and accept as bible 'truth'. This same believe was not held by earlier JW members of Rutherford or Russel's era,

this same teaching by Jw can still change tomoorow on the person of Jesus. Do u knw dat JW once called Jesus the great appolyon? Ask your elders if this teachin was held before or not.

Is arch angel michael not an angel again? Or is he a special angel differnet from others? Yes he is still an angel. God said: 'let all the angels worship the son' (includin angel Michael), 'he is made better than the angels (includin arch angel michael)

At times i wonder if Hebrews chapters 1 is omited from NWT. Na waoooo!

i dont even understand what you are unto!

How does this refute the evidence that christ is the archangel?

If you have a beef with the JW go sort it out.

But then, is it a crime to search the bible and and have it at your finger tip?

I love the bible and will continue to read/search it the more.

It cannot be a bad thing to be a bible student?

Being a bible student is a crime then am guilty.

true2god: My guy you are not presentin your opinion but wat JW made u to believe and accept as bible 'truth'. This same believe was not held by earlier JW members of Rutherford or Russel's era,

this same teaching by Jw can still change tomoorow on the person of Jesus. Do u knw dat JW once called Jesus the great appolyon? Ask your elders if this teachin was held before or not.

Is arch angel michael not an angel again? Or is he a special angel differnet from others? Yes he is still an angel. God said: 'let all the angels worship the son' (includin angel Michael), 'he is made better than the angels (includin arch angel michael)

At times i wonder if Hebrews chapters 1 is omited from NWT. Na waoooo!

Ok put JW aside, What have you to say concerning the verses i presented? Frosbel has refused to tell me If PAUL made mistake while referring to the event of Exodus.

We are all learning abi? You can tell us what these three verses mean then.

Who is this Angel that has The Father's name in Him, who is also called the Angel of His Presence has always been the Savior of Israel all through the days of old. He has saved, redeemed, and carried them. Why do you think Paul should identifies Him as being "Christ".

Doesn't these things about the Angel of God help to confirm that it has always been Jesus all along who has led God's people, even through all the days of old?

No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him. John 1:18
It has been Jesus all along who has lead God's people! And He has been identified as the Angel of God and the Angel of His Presence.
Is it because The name Jesus wasn't present in the Old book? But the name Angel was, and the roles played were the rolse of Jesus?

Behold, I send an Angel before you to keep you in the way and to bring you into the place which I have prepared.
Beware of Him and obey His voice; do not provoke Him, for He will not pardon your transgressions; for My name is in Him. Exodus 23:20-21

Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea,
all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea,
all ate the same spiritual food,
and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ. 1 Corinthians 10:1-4.

And the Angel of God, who went before the camp of Israel, moved and went behind them; and the pillar of cloud went from before them and stood behind them.
So it came between the camp of the Egyptians and the camp of Israel. Thus it was a cloud and darkness to the one, and it gave light by night to the other, so that the one did not come near the other all that night.
Then Moses stretched out his hand over the sea; and the LORD caused the sea to go back by a strong east wind all that night, and made the sea into dry land, and the waters were divided.
So the children of Israel went into the midst of the sea on the dry ground, and the waters were a wall to them on their right hand and on their left.
And the Egyptians pursued and went after them into the midst of the sea, all PharaohÕs horses, his chariots, and his horsemen.
Now it came to pass, in the morning watch, that the LORD looked down upon the army of the Egyptians through the
pillar of fire and cloud, and He troubled the army of the Egyptians. Exodus 14:19-24.[/b]

I will mention the lovingkindnesses of the LORD And the praises of the LORD, According to all that the LORD has bestowed on us, And the great goodness toward the house of Israel, Which He has bestowed on them according to His mercies, According to the multitude of His lovingkindnesses.
For He said, "Surely they are My people, Children who will not lie." So He became their Savior.
In all their affliction He was afflicted, And the Angel of His Presence saved them; In His love and in His pity He redeemed them; And He bore them and carried them All the days of old. Isaiah 63:7-9

Santa maria! this thread!!

This one is also interesting, when the Angel of the LORD appears before Samson's parents, Manoah and his wife.
The Angel of the LORD says somthing different. He identifies himself as havin' a name that is wonderful! See it:

Judges 13:15-23 Then Manoah said to the Angel of the LORD, "Please let us detain You, and we will prepare a young goat for You."
And the Angel of the LORD said to Manoah, "Though you detain Me, I will not eat your food.
But if you offer a burnt offering, you must offer it to the LORD." (For Manoah did not know He was the Angel of the LORD.)
Then Manoah said to the Angel of the LORD, "What is Your name, that when Your words come to pass we may honor You?
And the Angel of the LORD said to him, [size=14pt] "Why do you ask My name, seeing it is wonderful?[/size]
So Manoah took the young goat with the grain offering, and offered it upon the rock to the LORD. And He did a wondrous thing
while Manoah and his wife looked on--it happened as the flame went up toward heaven from the altar-- the Angel of the LORD
ascended in the flame of the altar! When Manoah and his wife saw this, they fell on their faces to the ground.
When the Angel of the LORD appeared no more to Manoah and his wife, then Manoah knew that He was the Angel of the LORD.
And Manoah said to his wife, "We shall surely die, because we have seen God!" But his wife said to him, "If the LORD
had desired to kill us, He would not have accepted a burnt offering and a grain offering from our hands, nor would
He have shown us all these things, nor would He have told us such things as these at this time."

[size=14pt]Now, who's name is it that is wonderful according to scripture? It is none other than Jesus Christ![/size]

Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

pastormustwacc: Santa maria! this thread!!

My broda, where you dey? I thought you guys will be able to refute all these verses, I want to be sure,
the scripture, both OT and NT were not making any mistake, men are the ones making mistake.
Our focus has been one sided so alot are scared or confused to accept even the plain scripture facing them.

I can understand when some qoute Hebrew, That will be dealt with by Gods grace.
So whoever that does not agree with these verses. Should refute them.

I have been monitoring this thread very closely, even brought non-nairalander christians to review it sef. The consensus offline is that Jesus and Angel michael are different entities entirely.
You guys should resolve already. . . .as far as the thread is concerned, i am a neutral.

pastormustwacc: I have been monitoring this thread very closely, even brought non-nairalander christians to review it sef. The consensus offline is that Jesus and Angel michael are different entities entirely.
You guys should resolve already. . . .as far as the thread is concerned, i am a neutral.

Ol man you cannot sit on the fence on issues like dis.you are either here or there.

As for the JW and SDA warriors here,it is obvious there are bound by their churches erroneous teachings even having seen the truth in the scriptures .There are still balabbing.

Only the first chapter of hebrews should have been enough to end this discussions if there were to be honest.

I will come down from the fence later on,

pastormustwacc: I will come down from the fence later on,

It is quite amazing you call yourself a xtian when you cannot yet make up your mind about whom Jesus is.

^^^You are getting me wrong, i already know my own belief, and the outcome of this thread and all the talks do not affect my belief in any way. As the thread poster, i should not take sides (for reasons best known to me) - i dont force my beliefs on anyone, you should have noticed that about me.

chukwudi44:
It is quite amazing you call yourself a xtian when you cannot yet make up your mind about whom Jesus is.

This is where you miss it all, who Jesus is, is not my arguement, I posted numerous OT verses that shows who He was before He came to earth you are yet to refute them yet twisting that we/i do not know who Jesus is? Of course Jesus is the Son of God, He is our Savoir, The messaiah, He is not God/Yahweh himself because He said So. I believe in His pre-existance because He also said so. What He was before He was born is what i have been presenting to the house since morning, no one could refutes those scriptures. You have skiped several questions i asked you, does that means you have no answer to them? scroll back and answer please. You should tell Us who that great prince of the OT is, who was the angel that "bears Gods name? that has the authourity not to perdon trasgression, the one that God sent with the Israelites that Paul reffered to as "Christ", who was Isaiah calling the Angel of His presence that redemeemed,saved, protect and also known to be the savior of the Israelites, who is the Anger that is called "WONDERFUL" in the OT and in the NT? My brother who is this Great Prince?

pastormustwacc: ^^^You are getting me wrong, i already know my own belief, and the outcome of this thread and all the talks do not affect my belief in any way. As the thread poster, i should not take sides (for reasons best known to me) - i dont force my beliefs on anyone, you should have noticed that about me.

But you can also qoute the bible wrong with your belief? even if you do not take any side, qoute these scriptures wrong, i have more scriptures to present to you people. The bible is the only thing doing the interpretation here. The OT tells you what the NT means. Not just read the NT and have a conclusion.

Jesus Christ is not Angel Michael , no matter how you try to twist the bible.

We do not worship angels , we worship Yahweh and Jesus Christ his SON.