Image123:
No, i wouldn't kill my children for changing their religious belief. i wouldn't accept that he/she did the right thing either. the same Bible that says to kill also says to have mercy. i choose to reconcile the two parts instead of believing just the one that suits my agenda like you have done. In the Old testament, an adulterer and an idolater was killed without mercy, but in the new testament, the adulterer and the idolater is given a chance to repent. the concept is popularly called grace.
Joh 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.
Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Note that the mercy or grace has an expiry date. God is not now condoning the sin, if the person does not repent, he/she will be punished by God after death.

I hope you realize that you've just admitted that the Bible is self contradictory. And that you're picking and choosing. Now if you're going to be preaching mercy and leaving everything to God, then who are you to prevent homosexuals from getting married? Why don't you leave it to God?

Image123:
A christian is not supposed to commit sin. IF a christian sins, he is no more in spotless white. he needs to repent of his sin.

How does one "repent" of their sin? Is it by simply talking to God? How long does it take to become "spotless white" after a sin?

Image123:
Sin is inborn in the sense that all humans are born as sinners. We are sinners by default. no one was born as a saint or as a christian. Everyone needs to be born AGAIN. So, the nature and tendency to sin is already in the man/woman. That's what is implied by inborn. It's like a land growing weed by nature.

Okay you've refused to take the log out of your fellow Christian's eye and decided to contradict yourself. That's fine. If we're born as sinners, doesn't it mean that we're created sinners?

pelezico:

So when did discriminating against moral evils be wrong. Its right to discriminate against evil.

Who says homosexuality is a moral evil?

pelezico:
If marriage is a human institution then marriage is VOID. Marriage should therefore be open to all - man/woman with animal, father/mother with son/daughter etc etc. If you think thats outrageous your friends the LGBT are actually advocating this

Schools are human institutions are they void? Do we teach dogs, cats and elephants along with our sons and daughters? Are you saying that homosexuals are like other animals in a way that heterosexuals aren't? What makes you think that allowing homosexuals to get married means permitting incest?

pelezico:
God has not built an Empire here on Earth but when he does Every knee will bow and every tongue will confess Christ as Lord, willingly or unwillingly.

Then we'll wait until he builds it. But remember, might does not make right.

pelezico:
You NEED to correct your English on the last statement as its not understandable.

Now you want to teach me English? Which of my statements didn't you understand?

pelezico:
Regarding womans rights, slavery, rape, paedophilia, infanticide it was not the humanist and secularists who opposed those crimes but CHRISTIANS. The Atheist has no grounds by which he could oppose them since his world view is one of purposelessness and self centeredness and only recognises a world view of "red tooth and claw" ie survival for the fittest.

Wow so much wrong information and straw man arguments. Firstly, your own Bible condones slavery, rape, paedophilia, infanticide. Whether you like it or not, non-believers are against those acts. Who are you to declare what the atheists worldview is?

pelezico:
Hope thats not to difficult to understand.

Oh I understand well enough but you don't understand your view or my view so you make the erroneous statements you've made.

thehomer:

I hope you realize that you've just admitted that the Bible is self contradictory. And that you're picking and choosing. Now if you're going to be preaching mercy and leaving everything to God, then who are you to prevent homosexuals from getting married? Why don't you leave it to God?



How does one "repent" of their sin? Is it by simply talking to God? How long does it take to become "spotless white" after a sin?

sorry for probably keeping you waiting. the Bible is not self contradictory, it is rather progressive i.e in stages. It only behooves you that you try to understand the view point and the panorama, instead of choosing what seems to please you. You are picking the OT and avoiding the NT to try to paint God as wicked. It's not so, there is no change in law. It's not that God now approves of what He earlier disapproved, no. He introduced grace, so that man can repent without being judged. If man doesn't repent, He will still be judged.
Ecc 3:1 To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:
Ecc 3:6 A time to get, and a time to lose; a time to keep, and a time to cast away;
Ecc 3:7 A time to rend, and a time to sew; a time to keep silence, and a time to speak;
Ecc 3:8 A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace.

You need to be aware of the times that you live in. A.M doesn't contradict P.M, they are both different times in the 24hr day. that the 24hr day is divided into day and night is not a contradiction if you understand what i mean. The NT doesn't condone homosexuality or murder, or adultery etc. But it allows for grace. Grace allows the sinner opportunity to REPENT. Its like a parent and child relationship. See this analogy for instance, It's popular(at least here in lagos) for a parent to spank a child for carelesness if for instance the child is about 4yrs old. if a 4yr old breaks a plate carelessly or even injured himself, the parent may be displeased and spank him. In 20years time, when the child is 24years old, and the same child breaks a plate carelessly or injured himself, the same parent will be displeased but is not likely to spank the child. that is what time can do, there is a progression. It's not that the parent are now contradicting themselves. If the 24yr old had a 4yr old sibling, that one may still be spanked by the parent, but the 24yr old is not spanked. In a similar vein, God treated the human race as 'children' in the OT
Gal 4:3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world:
Gal 4:4 But when the fullness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

In the process and progression of time and God's revelation to man, God sent us Jesus, and grace came with Jesus.
Joh 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

Now the sinner has the chance of mercy, turning a new leaf as it were. Now we do not condemn i.e final sentence people, but God will do that on the day reserved for that. Of course, we still recognise wrong and sin and discourage and preach against it. No one, or at least, i'm not arguing for homosexuals to be killed, but i can well speak against it, like i can speak against r.ape, murder, wickedness, theft, corruption and other sins. No one is forcing them not to get married. the thread title says it is against GOD'S will, and we will continue to tell them that anywhere and everywhere.
Repentance is to recognise wrong and change/amend your ways. Repentance invloves this two bolded. It's not enough to recognise what you are doing as wrong and continue doing it, that is not repentance, that is just remorse/guilt. talking to God is for forgiveness of sins. talking to God is prayer, not repentance. You repent and pray to God to forgive you. Immediately you are humble enough to do that i.e repent and talk to God, God forgives. Forgiveness is immediate, and forgiveness restores you to being spotless white. Remember that forgiveness is hinged on the sacrifice that Jesus Christ made by dying 2000yrs ago. That is the basis of forgiveness for the whole world's sins.

thehomer:

Okay you've refused to take the log out of your fellow Christian's eye and decided to contradict yourself. That's fine. If we're born as sinners, doesn't it mean that we're created sinners?

No, we were not created as sinners. We were created perfect, good. That's what the Bible says about the creation of man. We were created in Adam, after Adam, we are simply born. So we were created good, Adam lost that good in the Eden, and took the evil nature. Now, we are all born with the nature of Adam, which is a sinful nature, we are born as sinners. i can oblige you if you need scriptures for that.

Image123:

sorry for probably keeping you waiting. the Bible is not self contradictory, it is rather progressive i.e in stages. It only behooves you that you try to understand the view point and the panorama, instead of choosing what seems to please you. You are picking the OT and avoiding the NT to try to paint God as wicked. It's not so, there is no change in law. It's not that God now approves of what He earlier disapproved, no. He introduced grace, so that man can repent without being judged. If man doesn't repent, He will still be judged.
Ecc 3:1 To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:
Ecc 3:6 A time to get, and a time to lose; a time to keep, and a time to cast away;
Ecc 3:7 A time to rend, and a time to sew; a time to keep silence, and a time to speak;
Ecc 3:8 A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace.

Please take as long as you like. So the Bible progresses? If it does, then you're agreeing that your God has changed to become more progressive. In the past, he would command your own people to kill you now, he just leaves that to a realm that we don't have access to.

Image123:
You need to be aware of the times that you live in. A.M doesn't contradict P.M, they are both different times in the 24hr day. that the 24hr day is divided into day and night is not a contradiction if you understand what i mean. The NT doesn't condone homosexuality or murder, or adultery etc. But it allows for grace. Grace allows the sinner opportunity to REPENT. Its like a parent and child relationship. See this analogy for instance, It's popular(at least here in lagos) for a parent to spank a child for carelesness if for instance the child is about 4yrs old. if a 4yr old breaks a plate carelessly or even injured himself, the parent may be displeased and spank him. In 20years time, when the child is 24years old, and the same child breaks a plate carelessly or injured himself, the same parent will be displeased but is not likely to spank the child. that is what time can do, there is a progression. It's not that the parent are now contradicting themselves. If the 24yr old had a 4yr old sibling, that one may still be spanked by the parent, but the 24yr old is not spanked. In a similar vein, God treated the human race as 'children' in the OT
Gal 4:3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world:
Gal 4:4 But when the fullness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

How about tattooing and wearing clothes of mixed fabric? Are those also under grace or have they been totally discarded? And slavery? Even the New Testament never rejected it, instead, it urged that slaves be subservient to their masters.

Image123:
In the process and progression of time and God's revelation to man, God sent us Jesus, and grace came with Jesus.
Joh 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

Jesus also brought his eternal punishment.

Image123:
Now the sinner has the chance of mercy, turning a new leaf as it were. Now we do not condemn i.e final sentence people, but God will do that on the day reserved for that. Of course, we still recognise wrong and sin and discourage and preach against it. No one, or at least, i'm not arguing for homosexuals to be killed, but i can well speak against it, like i can speak against r.ape, murder, wickedness, theft, corruption and other sins. No one is forcing them not to get married. the thread title says it is against GOD'S will, and we will continue to tell them that anywhere and everywhere.
Repentance is to recognise wrong and change/amend your ways. Repentance invloves this two bolded. It's not enough to recognise what you are doing as wrong and continue doing it, that is not repentance, that is just remorse/guilt. talking to God is for forgiveness of sins. talking to God is prayer, not repentance. You repent and pray to God to forgive you. Immediately you are humble enough to do that i.e repent and talk to God, God forgives. Forgiveness is immediate, and forgiveness restores you to being spotless white. Remember that forgiveness is hinged on the sacrifice that Jesus Christ made by dying 2000yrs ago. That is the basis of forgiveness for the whole world's sins.

So the criminal mass murderer sins today, asks and gets forgiveness. But the honest non-Christian who has helped people round the world gets eternal punishment. Now that is getting your priorities wrong if there's a Heaven.

Image123:
No, we were not created as sinners. We were created perfect, good. That's what the Bible says about the creation of man. We were created in Adam, after Adam, we are simply born. So we were created good, Adam lost that good in the Eden, and took the evil nature. Now, we are all born with the nature of Adam, which is a sinful nature, we are born as sinners. i can oblige you if you need scriptures for that.

When were you Image123 created? And when were you born?

thehomer:

Please take as long as you like. So the Bible progresses? If it does, then you're agreeing that your God has changed to become more progressive. In the past, he would command your own people to kill you now, he just leaves that to a realm that we don't have access to.

Yes, the revelation of God's will to man was progressive. It was made complete in the new testament. In the new testament, all things are ready, and nothing is needed for addition again.
Joh 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.
Rev 22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
Rev 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

The Bible was released in series, like releasing a book in chapters until the whole thing was complete, except that it is not just like every other book, it is special. There is no change there. i used the word 'progressive' in the sense of ongoing, or gradual or developing. Not in the sense of being a radical or a reformist. The testaments are like step by step until you reach a goal. It's reason that you focus on the goal/destination, instead of how one step is not the same step as the other step. that way, you'll not end up confusing yourself.

How about tattooing and wearing clothes of mixed fabric? Are those also under grace or have they been totally discarded? And slavery? Even the New Testament never rejected it, instead, it urged that slaves be subservient to their masters.

Any law that was given by God still stands as His law. there is no change. The problem many in this our generation have is the understanding of those laws and their context. Another thing is to know the purpose of each law and if that purpose has being fulfilled or still needs to be served. When i was a little child, my parents gave a limit to where i can go by myself, who i can collect stuff from, what time i must be back home and in bed etc. As time has gone, the laws are not exactly the same in our relationship. Not that they changed or made a mistake or have now 'repented'. If i had a ki.d sibling, the law would still apply fully to him/her. One/You may unreasonably argue at partiality or contradiction, or you may reasonably understand in maturity, the reasons and the contexts. Your renderings of tattooing and wearing clothes of mixed fabric and slavery are subject to debate, perhaps on another thread.

Jesus also brought his eternal punishment.

The punishment had been there already. the whole world was already under the threat of wrath and judgement, read your OT and study the prophets. The people in the time of John the baptist were "fleeing from the wrath to come". It wasn't Jesus that brought it. Jesus had not even begun His ministry as it were.

So the criminal mass murderer sins today, asks and gets forgiveness. But the honest non-Christian who has helped people round the world gets eternal punishment. Now that is getting your priorities wrong if there's a Heaven.

Spot on. That is God's view. All have sinned, all are debtors by default. Every man, both the honest and dishonest, christian-born and pagan-born, 'good' and bad, everyone is born into sin. There is no amount of good deed that can pay for our debt. The wages/ result/reward of sin is death. The only way you or anybody is not going to die is if another person dies for you. The only person(according to the Bible) that is qualified to die for you or anybody is Jesus Christ. And He has already done that. What is left is for you to accept that He paid your debt, or decide to pay it yourself. All these is in scriptures. I'm trying to explain without using the many passages, but i can give them if you want.

thehomer:

When were you Image123 created? And when were you born?

i was created when Adam was created. We all were.
Gen 5:1 This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;
Gen 5:2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.
But i was born in 19XX. After i was born, i became born again.
BTW, the same way i was/we were created in Adam, we were also created in Jesus Christ. the work of creation has being done about 2000yrs ago. You get born again when you decide to.
Mar 13:19 For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Creation is what God does. Man does the giving birth, the process of being born, with the help of God BTW. Because we can't really do anything without Him.

Image123:
Yes, the revelation of God's will to man was progressive. It was made complete in the new testament. In the new testament, all things are ready, and nothing is needed for addition again.
Joh 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.
Rev 22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
Rev 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

The Bible was released in series, like releasing a book in chapters until the whole thing was complete, except that it is not just like every other book, it is special. There is no change there. i used the word 'progressive' in the sense of ongoing, or gradual or developing. Not in the sense of being a radical or a reformist. The testaments are like step by step until you reach a goal. It's reason that you focus on the goal/destination, instead of how one step is not the same step as the other step. that way, you'll not end up confusing yourself.

I know you think it is special but you understand that I do not agree with you. But it is reformist if some previous laws are declared to no longer hold. If the steps are not reasonably connected, then you shouldn't be surprised that you conclusions won't be agreed with.

Image123:
Any law that was given by God still stands as His law. there is no change. The problem many in this our generation have is the understanding of those laws and their context. Another thing is to know the purpose of each law and if that purpose has being fulfilled or still needs to be served. When i was a little child, my parents gave a limit to where i can go by myself, who i can collect stuff from, what time i must be back home and in bed etc. As time has gone, the laws are not exactly the same in our relationship. Not that they changed or made a mistake or have now 'repented'. If i had a ki.d sibling, the law would still apply fully to him/her. One/You may unreasonably argue at partiality or contradiction, or you may reasonably understand in maturity, the reasons and the contexts. Your renderings of tattooing and wearing clothes of mixed fabric and slavery are subject to debate, perhaps on another thread.

No, they can be addressed here. If you say that any law given by God still holds, then you need to say clearly whether or not those clothes laws, dietary laws and slavery laws still hold. If the Bible wasn't progressive in the sense of being reformed, then why should the laws be subject to debate?

Image123:
The punishment had been there already. the whole world was already under the threat of wrath and judgement, read your OT and study the prophets. The people in the time of John the baptist were "fleeing from the wrath to come". It wasn't Jesus that brought it. Jesus had not even begun His ministry as it were.

Actually, according to Judaic teaching, people aren't sent to hell, when they die, everything ends but with Jesus, you get to be punished for eternity according to most Christian beliefs.

Image123:
Spot on. That is God's view. All have sinned, all are debtors by default. Every man, both the honest and dishonest, christian-born and pagan-born, 'good' and bad, everyone is born into sin. There is no amount of good deed that can pay for our debt. The wages/ result/reward of sin is death. The only way you or anybody is not going to die is if another person dies for you. The only person(according to the Bible) that is qualified to die for you or anybody is Jesus Christ. And He has already done that. What is left is for you to accept that He paid your debt, or decide to pay it yourself. All these is in scriptures. I'm trying to explain without using the many passages, but i can give them if you want.

Why should someone dying for someone else be the only way? What even makes what Jesus did so good? I would have done it for my own family how much more the world and all future humans? But why exactly should God make everyone start with a debt? It doesn't make a lot of sense for a 2 day old baby to be considered to be a sinner deserving of death and eternal torture.

I've read the Bible and what you're saying is simply your own interpretation. There are Christians who have a different opinion on these issues.

Image123:
i was created when Adam was created. We all were.
Gen 5:1 This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;
Gen 5:2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.
But i was born in 19XX. After i was born, i became born again.
BTW, the same way i was/we were created in Adam, we were also created in Jesus Christ. the work of creation has being done about 2000yrs ago. You get born again when you decide to.
Mar 13:19 For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Creation is what God does. Man does the giving birth, the process of being born, with the help of God BTW. Because we can't really do anything without Him.

Really? So where were you stored until your birth?

And what is it that happens between this "creation" and "birth" that makes you deserve to be in hell? Now God knows that more than 98% of humans will be going to hell so why doesn't he destroy those of us that will be going to hell before we're born? Why doesn't he at least destroy the terrible people like serial killers and mass murderers before they're born?

thehomer:

I know you think it is special but you understand that I do not agree with you. But it is reformist if some previous laws are declared to no longer hold. If the steps are not reasonably connected, then you shouldn't be surprised that you conclusions won't be agreed with.

If it is not special, please produce a book like it. Lionel Messi is a special soccer player, usain Bolt is a special athlete, the Bible is a special book. If i write it this way, perhaps you understand better. The Bible is not like your everyday literature. It is followed by billions of people for thousands of years. All the laws of the Bile hold. If there is a law that doesn't hold, it is because it has been fulfilled or done with or a greater law of God is in place. For instance, in a street, there was a time when a place was barricaded and it was illegal for cars to pass there because of ongoing construction work. Now the consruction work is completed. Cars now pass there. This is not a case of inconsistency or contradiction on the part of the law maker. the previous law had to go seeing that it was no longer necessary. Consider another case on the law of gravity in room. My bag or shoe would obey the law of gravity and come down to the floor. But if a shoe rack was introduced, or i held it up with my hand, the shoe/bag stays up. The law of graavity is still there but has been superseded by the hand holding it or the rack from which it is hanging. there is no imaginary law fighting with or contradicting one another. it's a similar thing with the Bible commands that you think to be contradictory. BTW, i repeat clearly again, there is NO CONTRADICTION in the whole Bible. The problem is misunderstanding.

No, they can be addressed here. If you say that any law given by God still holds, then you need to say clearly whether or not those clothes laws, dietary laws and slavery laws still hold. If the Bible wasn't progressive in the sense of being reformed, then why should the laws be subject to debate?

the laws are not subject to debate. It is the interpretations that are subject to debate. This thread is talking about Adeboye's statement on same-sex marriage being against God's will, which is true. you are suggesting we launch into a back and forth on slavery, diet and clothing. If you say so, no wahala for me. i don't know about the moderators and others. What are the clothes laws, dietary laws and slavery laws?

Actually, according to Judaic teaching, people aren't sent to hell, when they die, everything ends but with Jesus, you get to be punished for eternity according to most Christian beliefs.

i want to believe that the Old Testament is also Judaic teaching, whatever that means.
Psa 9:17 The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God.
Psa 139:8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.
Pro 7:27 Her house is the way to hell, going down to the chambers of death.
Pro 9:18 But he knoweth not that the dead are there; and that her guests are in the depths of hell.
Pro 15:24 The way of life is above to the wise, that he may depart from hell beneath.
Pro 5:11 And thou mourn at the last, when thy flesh and thy body are consumed,
Isa 14:15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
The passages are referring to the destination of sinners as against the destination of the righteous. The Bible(OT and NT) is explicit enough that there is judgement for evil.

Why should someone dying for someone else be the only way?

Well, that's God's requirement as seen in the Bible. He is the owner of Heaven and earth and He decides the criteria and requirements to enter His Heaven and live with with. Earthly organisations have their own requirements for employment and entry. Countries and even residences have their terms and conditions for people to come in.

What even makes what Jesus did so good? I would have done it for my own family how much more the world and all future humans?

It is someone who has money that can talk of paying debt. your death would not have been accepted as you can only die for yourself. Jesus was not born of a man but of a woman. He is not a child of Adam but a child of God. He was not infected with 'the sin virus' by default. While He was on earth, He stayed away from being infected by overcoming temptations to sin. Adam was created good, without the sin virus. He did not overcome his own temptations. If Jesus had sinned, He would have been disqualified too, as a sinless, spotless 'lamb' was what was required. You and i were born with the sin virus.

But why exactly should God make everyone start with a debt? It doesn't make a lot of sense for a 2 day old baby to be considered to be a sinner deserving of death and eternal torture.

Adam made everyone start with a debt, not God. Adam is the father of all mankind, he is the beginning of the human race, and we inherited what he had. Just like you inherit something of your father's name(surname), blood, nationality, looks, sickness/prone sickness, character traits etc. We all inherited from adam the sin nature and the characters of a human being. A 2day old baby cannot choose. He/She cannot be punished as all sinners would be punished according to their works. The 2day old has no works.
Pro 24:12 If thou sayest, Behold, we knew it not; doth not he that pondereth the heart consider it? and he that keepeth thy soul, doth not he know it? and shall not he render to EVERY man according to his works?
Jer 25:14 For many nations and great kings shall serve themselves of them also: and I will recompense them according to their deeds, and according to the works of their own hands.
Mat 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward EVERY man according to his works.
Rev 2:23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Mat 18:3 And said, Verily I say unto yo[/b]u, Except ye be converted, and become as [b]little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 19:14 But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.
Jesus clearly taught that the Kingdom of God belonged to little children and to those that can be like them. i wonder why you folks worry so much for those whose places are already guaranteed in Heaven when you are supposed to be thinking of how to help your self and your age mates.

I've read the Bible and what you're saying is simply your own interpretation. There are Christians who have a different opinion on these issues.

And what you have said is not your own interpretation? Have you considered that you are speaking to someone who is 'finally' answering your questions, instead of dodging it or disappearing?

thehomer:

Really? So where were you stored until your birth?

Inside my father. See and compare this case from the Bible.
Heb 7:9 And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, paid tithes in Abraham.
Heb 7:10 For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchizedek met him.
Gen 35:11 And God said unto him, I am God Almighty: be fruitful and multiply; a nation and a company of nations shall be of thee, and kings shall come out of thy loins;
1Ki 8:19 Nevertheless thou shalt not build the house; but thy son that shall come forth out of thy loins, he shall build the house unto my name.
Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
King saul was the first King of Israel. note how Genesis 35 talks about him and other kings as been in the loins of Jacob. This distance is quite far compared to the Hebrews passage that says the same thing with three steps between Abraham and Levi, and the 1Kings passage that says the same thing with one step between david and Solomon. We were ll inside Adam, and if he didn't produce, we will not be here. We are his DESCENDants.

And what is it that happens between this "creation" and "birth" that makes you deserve to be in hell?

The fall of Adam in genesis 3 is what is inbetween. Adam got corrupted with 'the sin virus'. Thereafter, every file/human in him or put into him also got corrupted. And whatever is corrupted would be removed. Only Jesus can save any file/human from this corruption.
2Pe 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

Now God knows that more than 98% of humans will be going to hell so why doesn't he destroy those of us that will be going to hell before we're born? Why doesn't he at least destroy the terrible people like serial killers and mass murderers before they're born?

Then came freewill, remember? you only decide what you want to be when you are born, not before. We are all hell candidates by default, but we all choose whether we want to remain so or no. Judgement day is coming. There is already a time appointed for that, exercise patience.

sub_zidi:

If animals do not have s;ex with same s;ex why are humans doing it?? People call a spade a spade! Same s;ex mating is ABNORMAL, UNCHRISTIAN, UNISLAMIC and negates all rational assumptions & postulations.
Cheers

thats true my brother.

Image123:
If it is not special, please produce a book like it. Lionel Messi is a special soccer player, usain Bolt is a special athlete, the Bible is a special book. If i write it this way, perhaps you understand better. The Bible is not like your everyday literature. It is followed by billions of people for thousands of years. All the laws of the Bile hold. If there is a law that doesn't hold, it is because it has been fulfilled or done with or a greater law of God is in place. For instance, in a street, there was a time when a place was barricaded and it was illegal for cars to pass there because of ongoing construction work. Now the consruction work is completed. Cars now pass there. This is not a case of inconsistency or contradiction on the part of the law maker. the previous law had to go seeing that it was no longer necessary. Consider another case on the law of gravity in room. My bag or shoe would obey the law of gravity and come down to the floor. But if a shoe rack was introduced, or i held it up with my hand, the shoe/bag stays up. The law of graavity is still there but has been superseded by the hand holding it or the rack from which it is hanging. there is no imaginary law fighting with or contradicting one another. it's a similar thing with the Bible commands that you think to be contradictory. BTW, i repeat clearly again, there is NO CONTRADICTION in the whole Bible. The problem is misunderstanding.

By that reasoning, everyone is special and every book is special. It means that the Qur'an is special, the Book of Mormon is special, the novel Things Fall Apart is special. So what if many people read the Bible? Many people act out and have acted out Shakespeare's plays so I guess his works too are special.

Did God say any of his laws were no longer necessary? Your analogy with the shoe rack is wrong for two reasons.

1. Gravity doesn't stop acting on the shoes otherwise they would float out of the rack if not stuck in place.
2. The laws of gravity aren't the sorts of things that can be "violated" since they're descriptive laws unlike laws that people give to others to obey which are prescriptive.

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the laws are not subject to debate. It is the interpretations that are subject to debate. This thread is talking about Adeboye's statement on same-sex marriage being against God's will, which is true. you are suggesting we launch into a back and forth on slavery, diet and clothing. If you say so, no wahala for me. i don't know about the moderators and others. What are the clothes laws, dietary laws and slavery laws?

Actually, for me both the laws and the interpretations are subject to debate. The thread can also be used to discuss on whether Adeboye's statement should actually be accepted when it comes to making policy decisions.

Clothing laws are the sorts of things found in Deuteronomy 22:5 and 22:11, dietary laws in Deuteronomy 14:7-10, slavery laws Leviticus 25:44-46.

My point is why should they be selectively ignored while enforcing others?

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i want to believe that the Old Testament is also Judaic teaching, whatever that means.
Psa 9:17 The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God.
Psa 139:8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.
Pro 7:27 Her house is the way to hell, going down to the chambers of death.
Pro 9:18 But he knoweth not that the dead are there; and that her guests are in the depths of hell.
Pro 15:24 The way of life is above to the wise, that he may depart from hell beneath.
Pro 5:11 And thou mourn at the last, when thy flesh and thy body are consumed,
Isa 14:15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
The passages are referring to the destination of sinners as against the destination of the righteous. The Bible(OT and NT) is explicit enough that there is judgement for evil.

None of the passages you quoted above talk about eternal punishment. Just that people will be destroyed and that will be the end. With Jesus, we have continued punishment forever.

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Well, that's God's requirement as seen in the Bible. He is the owner of Heaven and earth and He decides the criteria and requirements to enter His Heaven and live with with. Earthly organisations have their own requirements for employment and entry. Countries and even residences have their terms and conditions for people to come in.

So God's requirements must automatically be good? Can he not do better than that? He could change his decision against Nineveh but not against the entire world. Isn't the world bigger than Nineveh? Sure countries and residences do but they don't then decide that anyone not in their country must be tortured forever.

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It is someone who has money that can talk of paying debt. your death would not have been accepted as you can only die for yourself. Jesus was not born of a man but of a woman. He is not a child of Adam but a child of God. He was not infected with 'the sin virus' by default. While He was on earth, He stayed away from being infected by overcoming temptations to sin. Adam was created good, without the sin virus. He did not overcome his own temptations. If Jesus had sinned, He would have been disqualified too, as a sinless, spotless 'lamb' was what was required. You and i were born with the sin virus.

My point is that the so called sacrifice that Christians keep making noise about isn't something that a mere person cannot do. When we then consider that Jesus got to be resurrected and float away to heaven while someone like me would be willing to do it even if it meant never being resurrected at all tells you that maybe I have more compassion for my people than Jesus and God.

Then the sacrifice won't have been needed if God decided it was no longer needed.

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Adam made everyone start with a debt, not God. Adam is the father of all mankind, he is the beginning of the human race, and we inherited what he had. Just like you inherit something of your father's name(surname), blood, nationality, looks, sickness/prone sickness, character traits etc. We all inherited from adam the sin nature and the characters of a human being. A 2day old baby cannot choose. He/She cannot be punished as all sinners would be punished according to their works. The 2day old has no works.
Pro 24:12 If thou sayest, Behold, we knew it not; doth not he that pondereth the heart consider it? and he that keepeth thy soul, doth not he know it? and shall not he render to EVERY man according to his works?
Jer 25:14 For many nations and great kings shall serve themselves of them also: and I will recompense them according to their deeds, and according to the works of their own hands.
Mat 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward EVERY man according to his works.
Rev 2:23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Mat 18:3 And said, Verily I say unto yo[/b]u, Except ye be converted, and become as [b]little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 19:14 But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.
Jesus clearly taught that the Kingdom of God belonged to little children and to those that can be like them. i wonder why you folks worry so much for those whose places are already guaranteed in Heaven when you are supposed to be thinking of how to help your self and your age mates.

Who gave Adam his nature? Sure you inherit physical characteristics but I don't think you inherit your father's punishment. After all, if one's grandfather was a killer, it doesn't mean that the person would also be a killer neither does it mean that the person should be branded for what their grandfather did. How much more Adam and you? Why should you be held responsible for what Adam did? Remember you're saying that even before you actually commit any crime at all, you deserve to roast in hell forever.

How can children be guaranteed Heaven? Aren't they born with sin anymore? That looks to me like Jesus and God contradicting themselves.

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And what you have said is not your own interpretation? Have you considered that you are speaking to someone who is 'finally' answering your questions, instead of dodging it or disappearing?

Oh I'm aware that it is my interpretation and that you're not running away like many other Christians would. And I hope that other Christians reading this realize that when they run, they're disobeying Jesus. My point is just for you to realize that many of your fellow Christians would disagree with you so how do you know that your own interpretation is correct and theirs wrong? Other interpretations are from the Bible too.

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Inside my father. See and compare this case from the Bible.
Heb 7:9 And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, paid tithes in Abraham.
Heb 7:10 For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchizedek met him.
Gen 35:11 And God said unto him, I am God Almighty: be fruitful and multiply; a nation and a company of nations shall be of thee, and kings shall come out of thy loins;
1Ki 8:19 Nevertheless thou shalt not build the house; but thy son that shall come forth out of thy loins, he shall build the house unto my name.
Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
King saul was the first King of Israel. note how Genesis 35 talks about him and other kings as been in the loins of Jacob. This distance is quite far compared to the Hebrews passage that says the same thing with three steps between Abraham and Levi, and the 1Kings passage that says the same thing with one step between david and Solomon. We were ll inside Adam, and if he didn't produce, we will not be here. We are his DESCENDants.

Huh? I thought those sorts of sayings are taken as being figurative rather than literal. Your great grand father didn't give birth to you, neither could he have given birth to you so the only way someone can say you were in him would be in a figurative manner and the passages you cite clearly demonstrate this. Otherwise, what part of Adam were you in? What part of Jacob was Saul in?

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The fall of Adam in genesis 3 is what is inbetween. Adam got corrupted with 'the sin virus'. Thereafter, every file/human in him or put into him also got corrupted. And whatever is corrupted would be removed. Only Jesus can save any file/human from this corruption.
2Pe 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

So because of Adam, you're going to hell. Now what sort of God who wants most of his creations to go to hell would arrange things in this way? Secondly, if you believe in Adam, then can you tell me what part of Adam you were in? As I said above, such sayings are to be taken figuratively not literally. Finally, why didn't God start over properly rather than doing a Noah's Ark and a Jesus sacrifice? He could have wiped everything out with the right asteroids and created more perfect humans.

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Then came freewill, remember? you only decide what you want to be when you are born, not before. We are all hell candidates by default, but we all choose whether we want to remain so or no. Judgement day is coming. There is already a time appointed for that, exercise patience.

If you want to use freewill, then my question is why should God have allowed so many different religions out there and multiple sects of Christianity? Surely he must have known that the chances that someone follows the religion of their parents is very high. In that case, he actually has minimized those people's freewill while granting mass murderers more freewill over those they kill.

So you don't decide what you'll be when you're created. In that case, why didn't God have people sprout from the ground rather be born by other humans? Even we humans know enough to prevent infections by preventing contact with carriers why didn't God do something better? If he had done that, then maybe we won't all be hell candidates according to you and remember, when you say we're all hell candidates, it means that the 2 day old child is also a hell candidate so where would that child go? And how did you arrive at that conclusion?

sorry for the delayed reply, wanted to reply earlier but the computer i was using had issues while updating microsoft essentials. Had to quit the browser without ability to copy what was typed.

thehomer:

By that reasoning, everyone is special and every book is special. It means that the Qur'an is special, the Book of Mormon is special, the novel Things Fall Apart is special. So what if many people read the Bible? Many people act out and have acted out Shakespeare's plays so I guess his works too are special.

Of course they are special, don't you think? Shakespeare is not like every other writer, he was special. You are more quick to counter-attack anything in favour of christianity no matter how reasonable, while missing the point i was making. The point was/is that "the Bible was released in series, like releasing a book in chapters until the whole thing was complete, except that it is not just like every other book, it is special". It wasn't written or released at once.

Did God say any of his laws were no longer necessary?

Yep, for example,
Heb 7:18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.
Remember the street law analogy that i gave about barricading.

Your analogy with the shoe rack is wrong for two reasons.

1. Gravity doesn't stop acting on the shoes otherwise they would float out of the rack if not stuck in place.

That's the point. Gravity was there and the rack/hand was there. They can't float out of the hand for instance even if they were in space. the hand will hold it. Gravity is there and the living hand is there. Same way some of the laws co-exist and yet give way for the other.

2. The laws of gravity aren't the sorts of things that can be "violated" since they're descriptive laws unlike laws that people give to others to obey which are prescriptive.

The airplane violates gravity all the time using a greater force ithink.

Actually, for me both the laws and the interpretations are subject to debate. The thread can also be used to discuss on whether Adeboye's statement should actually be accepted when it comes to making policy decisions.

Well, for you, but not for me. Yes, Adeboye's statement can be accepted. i believe you expect gay right activists statements to be considered and perhaps accepted when it comes to making policy decisions. It's only fair then that Adeboye's also be considered and perhaps accepted.

Clothing laws are the sorts of things found in Deuteronomy 22:5 and 22:11, dietary laws in Deuteronomy 14:7-10, slavery laws Leviticus 25:44-46.

My point is why should they be selectively ignored while enforcing others?

Clothing, dietary and slavery laws are not limited to the passages you have given. The laws are to be weighed in respect of the total, complete Bible, and then followed. Read other parts of the Bible that speak on clothing, diet and slavery and get a balanced view. The balanced view should not be ignored. You are selectively enforcing and accusing others of selectively ignoring.i say, do nothing selectively. Let's have a balanced view of the laws from the whole Bible, and 'enforce' the balanced view in that light.

None of the passages you quoted above talk about eternal punishment. Just that people will be destroyed and that will be the end. With Jesus, we have continued punishment forever.

i believe the people in the Old Testament before Christ(B.C) believed in an afterlife. they believed in punishment for the wicked and reward for the righteous. They didn't think that after death, it was nothing. i agree that Jesus made it more explicit, but they had the idea of a resurrection. The pharisees believed in resurrection.
Act 23:8 For the Sadducees say that there is no resurrection, neither angel, nor spirit: but the Pharisees confess both.
King David believed that he would meet his dead child in the afterlife.
2Sa 12:23 But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me.
He also wrote the following, speaking of the afterlife.
Psa 17:15 As for me, I will behold thy face in righteousness: I shall be satisfied, when I awake, with thy likeness.
Psa 49:14 Like sheep they are laid in the grave; death shall feed on them; and the upright shall have dominion over them in the morning; and their beauty shall consume in the grave from their dwelling.
Psa 49:15 But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave: for he shall receive me. Selah.

Prophet Isaiah believed in it too
Isa 33:14 The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?
Jer 23:40 And I will bring an everlasting reproach upon you, and a perpetual shame, which shall not be forgotten.

So God's requirements must automatically be good? Can he not do better than that? He could change his decision against Nineveh but not against the entire world. Isn't the world bigger than Nineveh? Sure countries and residences do but they don't then decide that anyone not in their country must be tortured forever.

Sure, God is good, have you not heard? You ought to know why He changed His decision against Nineveh. They repented, remember?
Jon 3:5 So the people of Nineveh believed God, and proclaimed a fast, and put on sackcloth, from the greatest of them even to the least of them.
Jon 3:6 For word came unto the king of Nineveh, and he arose from his throne, and he laid his robe from him, and covered him with sackcloth, and sat in ashes.
Jon 3:7 And he caused it to be proclaimed and published through Nineveh by the decree of the king and his nobles, saying, Let neither man nor beast, herd nor flock, taste any thing: let them not feed, nor drink water:
Jon 3:8 But let man and beast be covered with sackcloth, and cry mightily unto God: yea, let them turn every one from his evil way, and from the violence that is in their hands.
Jon 3:9 Who can tell if God will turn and repent, and turn away from his fierce anger, that we perish not?
Jon 3:10 And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.

When your entire world does the above, lets chat ehn. Hell belongs to God, and was created by Him. So He has the right to terms and CONDITIONS of hell too, recall.

My point is that the so called sacrifice that Christians keep making noise about isn't something that a mere person cannot do.

Every mere person had a sin of his own to die for. An innocent sacrifice was required for atonement. Sinless and spotless.

When we then consider that Jesus got to be resurrected and float away to heaven while someone like me would be willing to do it even if it meant never being resurrected at all tells you that maybe I have more compassion for my people than Jesus and God.

Jesus' resurrection was not the payment/atonement for sins. Atonement was done on the cross and declared to be finished before Jesus died. Jesus resurrected to defeat death, to technically take the power from death for us. The death of Jesus gave us forgiveness of sins. the resurrection gave us the victory. The victory is what gives the shout of a king, we are made not just pitiful forgiven sinners/debtors but champions and conquerors over the enemy by the resurrection. You i trust to fight to the end for your right instead of dying for anybody, so don't even start.

Then the sacrifice won't have been needed if God decided it was no longer needed.

The human life is precious, more precious than all of the earth's material thing. Jesus quantified it as greater than gaining the whole world. A sacrifice had to be made. There are laws already set and consequences faced for actions. god doesn't just decide it no longer needed. there are steps and protocols. The soul that sins shall die.

Who gave Adam his nature? Sure you inherit physical characteristics but I don't think you inherit your father's punishment. After all, if one's grandfather was a killer, it doesn't mean that the person would also be a killer neither does it mean that the person should be branded for what their grandfather did. How much more Adam and you? Why should you be held responsible for what Adam did? Remember you're saying that even before you actually commit any crime at all, you deserve to roast in hell forever.

Adam chose his nature. He was the first man/human being. He was given the choice. You and me as his descendants have to benefit from that choice, as it were. It's like a man born normal but who grows and lives with a loose life of immorality and dirty life. If he gets infected with sickness like HIV, or develops an habit. the sickness and habit can be passed to his descendants. his mannerisms can be inherited. Heck, even his physical possessions can be inherited. We unfortunately inherited the sinful nature of Adam. He had a choice of obedience and disobedience, life and death. he chose death, and was driven away from the garden. You are not held responsible for Adam's sins or anybody else sins. you are held responsible and punished for your sins. We are all sinners by nature at birth. as we grow, we become sinners by nature and by works/deeds. Every man is judged/punished according to his WORKS/deeds. that's one of the reasons why the baby is not much of your worry.

How can children be guaranteed Heaven? Aren't they born with sin anymore? That looks to me like Jesus and God contradicting themselves.

God chooses to have mercy on who He wants to have mercy. He has chosen to have mercy on the babies and i have given you scriptures on that and the very words of Jesus Himself. If you feel cheated, well, bad for you. His condition of mercy for you is repentance.
Pro 28:13 He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy.

He has chosen to have mercy on the babies, why are you trying to be jealous? If He didn't have mercy on them, you would complain. Now, it is being shown you that He would have mercy on them, you are still complaining.
Mat 20:15 Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own? Is thine eye evil, because I am good?

Babies don't know anything as it were and God considers them. See for instance the city of Nineveh that you mentioned earlier.
Jonah 4:11 And should not I spare Nineveh, that great city, wherein are more than sixscore thousand persons that cannot discern between their right hand and their left hand; and also much cattle?

Are you a baby? i guess your parents have asked you that before? You are no longer a baby. Stop expecting to be treated in the same way.

Oh I'm aware that it is my interpretation and that you're not running away like many other Christians would. And I hope that other Christians reading this realize that when they run, they're disobeying Jesus.

No, they are not disobeying Jesus. They are only been wise. Not every fisherman needs to try to catch a shark. If you lack the tools and 'courage', the shark will catch you instead. Jesus did not require us to do what you are insinuating, whatever it is.

My point is just for you to realize that many of your fellow Christians would disagree with you so how do you know that your own interpretation is correct and theirs wrong? Other interpretations are from the Bible too.

Many of my fellows also agree with me. The scriptures agree with me, v.important. Search the scriptures.

thehomer:

Huh? I thought those sorts of sayings are taken as being figurative rather than literal. Your great grand father didn't give birth to you, neither could he have given birth to you so the only way someone can say you were in him would be in a figurative manner and the passages you cite clearly demonstrate this. Otherwise, what part of Adam were you in? What part of Jacob was Saul in?

And what criteria qualifies them as figurative as against literal? i cannot exist without my granddad. i was in him, i am his DESCENDant. i descend from him. i was in his seed. Saul was in Jacob's seed. If Jacob was childless, there would be no Saul the seed of Jacob. The Israelites are the seed of Abraham.
Psa 105:6 O ye seed of Abraham his servant, ye children of Jacob his chosen.
Jesus was the seed of Eve, etc.

So because of Adam, you're going to hell. Now what sort of God who wants most of his creations to go to hell would arrange things in this way? Secondly, if you believe in Adam, then can you tell me what part of Adam you were in? As I said above, such sayings are to be taken figuratively not literally. Finally, why didn't God start over properly rather than doing a Noah's Ark and a Jesus sacrifice? He could have wiped everything out with the right asteroids and created more perfect humans.

already addressed. i said in he above post that we are judged according to our works,and that we are sinners by default, hence we cannot be sacrificedd for others, as we are not sinless. i was in Adam as his seed. the whole of the human race was. On the bolded, you are very right. that is what should be done and that is what will be done. That's why we say Jesus is coming soon. he is coming to do just that. Wipe everything out, with the right asteroids, and bring in perfection. If you need the scriptures that say that, i will provide them.

If you want to use freewill, then my question is why should God have allowed so many different religions out there and multiple sects of Christianity? Surely he must have known that the chances that someone follows the religion of their parents is very high. In that case, he actually has minimized those people's freewill while granting mass murderers more freewill over those they kill.

Actually, a pastor's child has free-will to decide for himself or herself. news making the rounds tell us that pastors children and people born in christian homes turn out as atheists. that is free-will at work. your assumptions do not always follow in reality.

So you don't decide what you'll be when you're created. In that case, why didn't God have people sprout from the ground rather be born by other humans? Even we humans know enough to prevent infections by preventing contact with carriers why didn't God do something better? If he had done that, then maybe we won't all be hell candidates according to you and remember, when you say we're all hell candidates, it means that the 2 day old child is also a hell candidate so where would that child go? And how did you arrive at that conclusion?

Man was given the ability to procreate before he fell in the garden of Eden. Is there anything that sprouts out of the ground on its own? Human beings are the crown of creation, we are more complex than you suggest. i assumed science should have taught you that? There is a process. there are laws. There are protocols, there is justice. And God is not in a rush, sorry. If you truly feel any sense of urgency, the best thing you can do is make sure that you stop being an hell candidate. i stopped being an hell candidate when i gave my life to Jesus, by believing in Jesus and repenting of my sins. The choice is yours still.

Sheesh. You really like long replies.

Image123: sorry for the delayed reply, wanted to reply earlier but the computer i was using had issues while updating microsoft essentials. Had to quit the browser without ability to copy what was typed.

Of course they are special, don't you think? Shakespeare is not like every other writer, he was special. You are more quick to counter-attack anything in favour of christianity no matter how reasonable, while missing the point i was making. The point was/is that "the Bible was released in series, like releasing a book in chapters until the whole thing was complete, except that it is not just like every other book, it is special". It wasn't written or released at once.

The Harry Potter books weren't written all at once neither were the Jason Bourne Books. The fact that it was released in series doesn't make it special. If all books are special, then the Bible has no unique claim to being special.

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Yep, for example,
Heb 7:18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.
Remember the street law analogy that i gave about barricading.

Firstly, Jesus didn't talk about that. Secondly, if you agree that certain laws are to be discarded, why shouldn't the laws against homosexuality in the Bible be among them?

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That's the point. Gravity was there and the rack/hand was there. They can't float out of the hand for instance even if they were in space. the hand will hold it. Gravity is there and the living hand is there. Same way some of the laws co-exist and yet give way for the other.

Where did the hand come from? If they were in space with no gravity, the shoes would float out.

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The airplane violates gravity all the time using a greater force ithink.

No, it doesn't violate the law of gravity. Countering the action of gravity isn't violating it. Violating it means that the plane somehow annuls the effects of gravity. So you can pick another example or just accept that "law" has various meanings.

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Well, for you, but not for me. Yes, Adeboye's statement can be accepted. i believe you expect gay right activists statements to be considered and perhaps accepted when it comes to making policy decisions. It's only fair then that Adeboye's also be considered and perhaps accepted.

That is why I ask on what basis he makes these statements. If he says the Bible, well that isn't good enough because not all Nigerians are Christians neither are they the same type of Christians. So what we need is a more general principle on which to make this decision.

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Clothing, dietary and slavery laws are not limited to the passages you have given. The laws are to be weighed in respect of the total, complete Bible, and then followed. Read other parts of the Bible that speak on clothing, diet and slavery and get a balanced view. The balanced view should not be ignored. You are selectively enforcing and accusing others of selectively ignoring.i say, do nothing selectively. Let's have a balanced view of the laws from the whole Bible, and 'enforce' the balanced view in that light.

No they're not limited to those passages but is there a part of the Bible where Jesus says those laws are to be thrown out? Go ahead and try to balance it. You have your work cut out for you.

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i believe the people in the Old Testament before Christ(B.C) believed in an afterlife. they believed in punishment for the wicked and reward for the righteous. They didn't think that after death, it was nothing. i agree that Jesus made it more explicit, but they had the idea of a resurrection. The pharisees believed in resurrection.
Act 23:8 For the Sadducees say that there is no resurrection, neither angel, nor spirit: but the Pharisees confess both.
King David believed that he would meet his dead child in the afterlife.
2Sa 12:23 But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me.
He also wrote the following, speaking of the afterlife.
Psa 17:15 As for me, I will behold thy face in righteousness: I shall be satisfied, when I awake, with thy likeness.
Psa 49:14 Like sheep they are laid in the grave; death shall feed on them; and the upright shall have dominion over them in the morning; and their beauty shall consume in the grave from their dwelling.
Psa 49:15 But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave: for he shall receive me. Selah.

Prophet Isaiah believed in it too
Isa 33:14 The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?
Jer 23:40 And I will bring an everlasting reproach upon you, and a perpetual shame, which shall not be forgotten.

They believed in an afterlife for those that God has picked but that the rest would simply die and that will be the end of it. No hell or eternal torture until Jesus showed up.

The last passage in your Bible quotes was referring to prophets. I still don't see anything there about an eternal punishment.

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Sure, God is good, have you not heard? You ought to know why He changed His decision against Nineveh. They repented, remember?
Jon 3:5 So the people of Nineveh believed God, and proclaimed a fast, and put on sackcloth, from the greatest of them even to the least of them.
Jon 3:6 For word came unto the king of Nineveh, and he arose from his throne, and he laid his robe from him, and covered him with sackcloth, and sat in ashes.
Jon 3:7 And he caused it to be proclaimed and published through Nineveh by the decree of the king and his nobles, saying, Let neither man nor beast, herd nor flock, taste any thing: let them not feed, nor drink water:
Jon 3:8 But let man and beast be covered with sackcloth, and cry mightily unto God: yea, let them turn every one from his evil way, and from the violence that is in their hands.
Jon 3:9 Who can tell if God will turn and repent, and turn away from his fierce anger, that we perish not?
Jon 3:10 And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.

When your entire world does the above, lets chat ehn. Hell belongs to God, and was created by Him. So He has the right to terms and CONDITIONS of hell too, recall.

So he gave the small town of Nineveh the chance to repent but he cannot give say the state of Lagos a chance? God himself couldn't make the entire world do that so he sent Noah and the flood which of course failed. Now, you're asking me to trust a being so powerful and knowledgeable that he failed at such tasks? He failed so much that his best option is to deliberately create a torture chamber to torture most of the beings he loves for eternity? I'm sorry but that doesn't make sense. When you love 100 people, you don't place them in a situation where you have to torture 99 of them forever.

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Every mere person had a sin of his own to die for. An innocent sacrifice was required for atonement. Sinless and spotless.

Again, what Jesus did was a simple sacrifice not a difficult one. That is my point.

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Jesus' resurrection was not the payment/atonement for sins. Atonement was done on the cross and declared to be finished before Jesus died. Jesus resurrected to defeat death, to technically take the power from death for us. The death of Jesus gave us forgiveness of sins. the resurrection gave us the victory. The victory is what gives the shout of a king, we are made not just pitiful forgiven sinners/debtors but champions and conquerors over the enemy by the resurrection. You i trust to fight to the end for your right instead of dying for anybody, so don't even start.

I didn't say his resurrection was a payment for sins. My point is that if I knew that I would be resurrected if I died for my family, I would be happy to do it and I won't even consider it a major sacrifice just an inconvenience.

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The human life is precious, more precious than all of the earth's material thing. Jesus quantified it as greater than gaining the whole world. A sacrifice had to be made. There are laws already set and consequences faced for actions. god doesn't just decide it no longer needed. there are steps and protocols. The soul that sins shall die.

God decided the consequences were no longer needed for Nineveh why didn't he do that for the whole world? Why should the whole world have to be punished together when he can simply declare that people born in Lagos State would be born without sin?

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Adam chose his nature. He was the first man/human being. He was given the choice. You and me as his descendants have to benefit from that choice, as it were. It's like a man born normal but who grows and lives with a loose life of immorality and dirty life. If he gets infected with sickness like HIV, or develops an habit. the sickness and habit can be passed to his descendants. his mannerisms can be inherited. Heck, even his physical possessions can be inherited. We unfortunately inherited the sinful nature of Adam. He had a choice of obedience and disobedience, life and death. he chose death, and was driven away from the garden. You are not held responsible for Adam's sins or anybody else sins. you are held responsible and punished for your sins. We are all sinners by nature at birth. as we grow, we become sinners by nature and by works/deeds. Every man is judged/punished according to his WORKS/deeds. that's one of the reasons why the baby is not much of your worry.

Did you choose your nature (not your actions)? Couldn't God have made this sinful nature non-genetic? Physical possessions can be inherited but they're not necessarily passed from parent to offspring.

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God chooses to have mercy on who He wants to have mercy. He has chosen to have mercy on the babies and i have given you scriptures on that and the very words of Jesus Himself. If you feel cheated, well, bad for you. His condition of mercy for you is repentance.
Pro 28:13 He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy.

He has chosen to have mercy on the babies, why are you trying to be jealous? If He didn't have mercy on them, you would complain. Now, it is being shown you that He would have mercy on them, you are still complaining.
Mat 20:15 Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own? Is thine eye evil, because I am good?

Babies don't know anything as it were and God considers them. See for instance the city of Nineveh that you mentioned earlier.
Jonah 4:11 And should not I spare Nineveh, that great city, wherein are more than sixscore thousand persons that cannot discern between their right hand and their left hand; and also much cattle?

Are you a baby? i guess your parents have asked you that before? You are no longer a baby. Stop expecting to be treated in the same way.

Oh now he will have mercy on just any random person. Yet he's the one that cannot break his own rules but here, you're saying he can break it whenever he likes. This is just your God being inconsistent then. You should look at what I'm doing as pointing out the inherent inconsistencies within the Christian doctrine rather than me trying to get right with your God.

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No, they are not disobeying Jesus. They are only been wise. Not every fisherman needs to try to catch a shark. If you lack the tools and 'courage', the shark will catch you instead. Jesus did not require us to do what you are insinuating, whatever it is.

The "Great Commission" was for them to preach his gospel. The apostles and others tell them to defend the faith but those Christians run from it all. How isn't that disobedience?

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Many of my fellows also agree with me. The scriptures agree with me, v.important. Search the scriptures.

And that is why there are so many denominations and so much confusion in Christianity. I've read the scriptures and as Christians keep demonstrating, you can read into it anything you want.

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And what criteria qualifies them as figurative as against literal? i cannot exist without my granddad. i was in him, i am his DESCENDant. i descend from him. i was in his seed. Saul was in Jacob's seed. If Jacob was childless, there would be no Saul the seed of Jacob. The Israelites are the seed of Abraham.
Psa 105:6 O ye seed of Abraham his servant, ye children of Jacob his chosen.
Jesus was the seed of Eve, etc.

It is figurative because the man called Saul was not in the man called Jacob. If you disagree, what part of Jacob was Saul in? A man cannot literally be in their own grandfather. Please take the time to look at what it means to say that something is figurative and another is literal. e.g when Babylon is referred to as a LovePeddler, does it mean that Babylon actually is a LovePeddler?

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already addressed. i said in he above post that we are judged according to our works,and that we are sinners by default, hence we cannot be sacrificedd for others, as we are not sinless. i was in Adam as his seed. the whole of the human race was. On the bolded, you are very right. that is what should be done and that is what will be done. That's why we say Jesus is coming soon. he is coming to do just that. Wipe everything out, with the right asteroids, and bring in perfection. If you need the scriptures that say that, i will provide them.

I'm not saying we should even be sacrificed for others. I'm saying that the whole sacrifice thing was pointless because God could have decreed otherwise. If Jesus is coming with asteroids, we'll actually see it. That is one of the things NASA does. And if we see it, then we will have time to prepare for it won't we? But my main question is why did he even make that attempt with Noah if he knew that an asteroid would have done a much better job?

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Actually, a pastor's child has free-will to decide for himself or herself. news making the rounds tell us that pastors children and people born in christian homes turn out as atheists. that is free-will at work. your assumptions do not always follow in reality.

But how about the Muslims and Hindus? What are they to do? Their children are already condemned because God allowed them to be born at the wrong place.

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Man was given the ability to procreate before he fell in the garden of Eden. Is there anything that sprouts out of the ground on its own? Human beings are the crown of creation, we are more complex than you suggest. i assumed science should have taught you that? There is a process. there are laws. There are protocols, there is justice. And God is not in a rush, sorry. If you truly feel any sense of urgency, the best thing you can do is make sure that you stop being an hell candidate. i stopped being an hell candidate when i gave my life to Jesus, by believing in Jesus and repenting of my sins. The choice is yours still.

My point is that God could do it can't he? If he did that, then we won't have to worry about Adam's sin. That is what an omnipotent and omniscient God who really wanted all the humans he created to go to heaven would have done.

^
I'd reply fully later. Meanwhile, i have a question. The passages on descendants being in their parents, what is it figurative of?

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I'd reply fully later. Meanwhile, i have a question. The passages on descendants being in their parents, what is it figurative of?

It is figuratively used to say that one person is another person's descendant. Not that the person was literally living in their ancestor's body.

thehomer: Sheesh. You really like long replies.

Perhaps because you ask many questions at once? And its often characteristic of answers to be longer than questions. BTW, sorry for the late reply.

The Harry Potter books weren't written all at once neither were the Jason Bourne Books. The fact that it was released in series doesn't make it special. If all books are special, then the Bible has no unique claim to being special.

You miss the point, my point is not that it is special for any purpose. My point was/is that it was not written at once but written in series, step by step, in progression. We were talking about why some of its laws seemed contradictory, and i was showing you the phases and differing periods necessitating some change, like using the street road construct analogy.

Firstly, Jesus didn't talk about that. Secondly, if you agree that certain laws are to be discarded, why shouldn't the laws against homosexuality in the Bible be among them?

What sort of excuse is this? Is Hebrews not a book in the Bible? If it had contradictions, would you not consider it as part of the "word of God"? Now it answers your question, you are talking about what Jesus didn't talk about. You need some level of openness. Now, the Bible 'laws' are broadly subdivided into moral laws and ceremonial laws. Ceremonial laws have been done away with, fulfilled, replaced. Moral laws still hold. Ceremonial laws are those involving cleansing, washing, and trying to use religion to please God. The law on homosexuality is a moral law.

Where did the hand come from? If they were in space with no gravity, the shoes would float out.

The hand came from a human, duh. You can raise your hands and it would not be subject to gravity, at least not immediately. That's my point, that gravity is there, and the 'law of human life' is there. They are not contradicting one another in the sense, they are co-existing. It's the same way some of those Bible laws exist. It's not an exact science like say mathematics, where you always get the same thing. In life, you don't always get the same thing.

No, it doesn't violate the law of gravity. Countering the action of gravity isn't violating it. Violating it means that the plane somehow annuls the effects of gravity. So you can pick another example or just accept that "law" has various meanings.

It's the same thing. Countering and violating is simply contravening, disobedience, disregard as it were.

That is why I ask on what basis he makes these statements. If he says the Bible, well that isn't good enough because not all Nigerians are Christians neither are they the same type of Christians. So what we need is a more general principle on which to make this decision.

What is the more general principle? Disbelief in God? On what general principle are homos pushing for acceptance? Is he supposed to make godless statements so as to embrace a 'more general principle'?

No they're not limited to those passages but is there a part of the Bible where Jesus says those laws are to be thrown out? Go ahead and try to balance it. You have your work cut out for you.

It's not my work, it's your laziness. you are supposed to search the scriptures, and study to show yourself approved. My attempt to show you is only like drawing me back to what i have passed, in order to help you. It's already balanced to me. One more thing you need to know about the Bible is that it is God's manual to man. It is the design, showing how best man can and should live ON EARTH and in eternity. Most folks look at the scriptures with the lens of eternal judgement. Not every law and instruction has to do with heaven, hell and eternal judgement. Some laws are for you to live long, for your health, your happiness, for a better society. Some think oh, if i don't obey them, i am going to hell and whatever. Some laws are just not that important to your getting to the Kingdom. Now, on diets, compare
Act 10:12 Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air.
Act 10:13 And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat.
Act 10:14 But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean.
Act 10:15 And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.
Act 10:16 This was done thrice: and the vessel was received up again into heaven.
1Tim 4:4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:
1Tim 4:5 For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.

For slavery, compare the practical treatment of servants and slaves in the Bible as well. Don't just get fixated on the theory, the practical is also for you, and carries greater marks, as it were. Observe Abraham's relationship with his servants, and other men in the Bible that had servants or slaves, remembering that all things in the Bible are written for our learning. Also, see that there is no more special israel in that sense, hence your quoted passage is redundant.
Gala 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
On dressing, one, you do not understand the passage you quoted. Two, there are disputes on the interpretation of the verses. So, perhaps you can state what you think those passages mean, then i'll show you what to do about that, thanks.

They believed in an afterlife for those that God has picked but that the rest would simply die and that will be the end of it. No hell or eternal torture until Jesus showed up.

The last passage in your Bible quotes was referring to prophets. I still don't see anything there about an eternal punishment.

whatever, its a minor and i'm not arguing on that. Note however that the OT folks knew for sure of judgement for the wicked. Perhaps, they didn't know the intricacies and mode but they knew that there was a coming time when the wicked would be judged.
Pro 11:21 Though hand join in hand, the wicked shall not be unpunished: but the seed of the righteous shall be delivered.
Pro 16:5 Every one that is proud in heart is an abomination to the LORD: though hand join in hand, he shall not be unpunished.

So he gave the small town of Nineveh the chance to repent but he cannot give say the state of Lagos a chance?

Your chance is now, can't you see? Everytime you hear the message to repent, everytime your conscience convicts you, it is your chance to repent. There is so much chance for the world, there is now doubt if God/Jesus would close the chance-door and start judgement. When Jesus comes again, the chance of Lagos and the entire world would be up. There is time for everything. Don't miss the moment homer.

God himself couldn't make the entire world do that so he sent Noah and the flood which of course failed. Now, you're asking me to trust a being so powerful and knowledgeable that he failed at such tasks?

Don't really get your point on introducing Noe here. Anyways the flood was sent as a warning, not as a remedy. God never called it a remedy, He knows that sin is ingrained in every human's adamic nature. He procured the remedy/solution as far back as Genesis 3v15. The solution came in Christ. There is time for everything.

He failed so much that his best option is to deliberately create a torture chamber to torture most of the beings he loves for eternity? I'm sorry but that doesn't make sense. When you love 100 people, you don't place them in a situation where you have to torture 99 of them forever.

You're getting it wrong, hell was created before Adam. It was actually initially created for the devil. i think Adam's race feel it is the more the merrier?
Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
God is not going to torture the people that He loves, He is going to take those ones to heaven. Love is reciprocal you know, you have to reciprocate God's love for you by loving Him back. We're talking about dwelling with Him for all of eternity here. That He even gives us a chance is enough love, He had nothing to lose, we did.

Again, what Jesus did was a simple sacrifice not a difficult one. That is my point.

Its only simple on perspective. You cannot give what you do not have you know? It's every easy to deposit 1trillion dollars. Its perhaps the same deposit slip that is needed, the real point is how many people have 1trillion dollars to deposit?

I didn't say his resurrection was a payment for sins. My point is that if I knew that I would be resurrected if I died for my family, I would be happy to do it and I won't even consider it a major sacrifice just an inconvenience.

Like i shown you, you need to have money before you can think of paying a debt. No man was found able or worthy to pay the debt for sins. Only Jesus was worthy, sufficient. The debt was already paid before the resurrection. The resurrection is the addition, the hope of humanity. Christ's death settled the debt. It made the believer a forgiven debtor. The resurrection gave us victory over physical death and hope of living in eternity and perpetual victory with God. Clearing your debt is not the same as making you the richest man. That's like the difference between Christ's death and resurrection.

God decided the consequences were no longer needed for Nineveh why didn't he do that for the whole world? Why should the whole world have to be punished together when he can simply declare that people born in Lagos State would be born without sin?

You are not reading what the narrative says. The people of Nineveh repented. They decided. When and if the whole world repents and decides, God is faithful and just to equally forgive. Nineveh could have acted up like Sodom, or the people in Noah's days, or like the Egyptians. They repented. Why are you refusing to see that?
1John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
Nineveh was pro-active, why are you not? Hear is the narrative again, i will embold some portion for you.
Jon 3:4 And Jonah began to enter into the city a day's journey, and he cried, and said, Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown.
Jon 3:5 So the people of Nineveh believed God, and proclaimed a fast, and put on sackcloth, from the greatest of them even to the least of them.
Jon 3:6 For word came unto the king of Nineveh, and he arose from his throne, and he laid his robe from him, and covered him with sackcloth, and sat in ashes.
Jon 3:7 And he caused it to be proclaimed and published through Nineveh by the decree of the king and his nobles, saying, Let neither man nor beast, herd nor flock, taste any thing: let them not feed, nor drink water:
Jon 3:8 But let man and beast be covered with sackcloth, and cry mightily unto God: yea, let them turn every one from his evil way, and from the violence that is in their hands.
Jon 3:9 Who can tell if God will turn and repent, and turn away from his fierce anger, that we perish not?
Jon 3:10 And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.

Did you choose your nature (not your actions)? Couldn't God have made this sinful nature non-genetic? Physical possessions can be inherited but they're not necessarily passed from parent to offspring.

i didn't choose my nature as i am not the first man. But i can clearly CHANGE my nature, and so can you. It's called repentance and believing on the Lord Jesus. God made Adam with ability to produce of his kind, its called reproduction. Adam should have chosen the godly and obedient nature. i'm not interested in blaming him, i'm pro-active. You can continue to choose to blame Adam, or God, or anyone else. And you can choose to work on the solution graciously provided.

Oh now he will have mercy on just any random person. Yet he's the one that cannot break his own rules but here, you're saying he can break it whenever he likes. This is just your God being inconsistent then. You should look at what I'm doing as pointing out the inherent inconsistencies within the Christian doctrine rather than me trying to get right with your God.

It's not random mercy, i quoted a condition to you, see it again. Don't miss it this time.
Pro 28:13 He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy.
Learn to read the fine print, the terms and conditions. When He says "I will have mercy on WHO I will have mercy", the logical thing to find out is WHO? The Bible states who. God will have mercy on babies, mercy on those that confess and forsake their sins etc. If you meet the conditions, you get the mercy, whosoever you may be. Mercy is not limited to a certain race, nationality, gender or class. God can give His mercy to anybody.
Psa 115:3 But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased.
Ecc 8:4 Where the word of a king is, there is power: and who may say unto him, What doest thou?

The "Great Commission" was for them to preach his gospel. The apostles and others tell them to defend the faith but those Christians run from it all. How isn't that disobedience?

The great commission is not the same as answering every question asked by everybody. The commision is to preach the goodnews. Jesus Himself was not busied into answering every comment and debating every issue. His followers should not be goaded otherwise. They are encouraged instead to use their discretion, and the leading of the Spirit of God.
Mat 26:62 And the high priest arose, and said unto him, Answerest thou nothing? what is it which these witness against thee?
Mat 26:63 But Jesus held his peace. And the high priest answered and said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ, the Son of God.
Luk 23:8 And when Herod saw Jesus, he was exceeding glad: for he was desirous to see him of a long season, because he had heard many things of him; and he hoped to have seen some miracle done by him.
Luk 23:9 Then he questioned with him in many words; but he answered him nothing.
Mat 27:12 And when he was accused of the chief priests and elders, he answered nothing.
Mat 27:13 Then said Pilate unto him, Hearest thou not how many things they witness against thee?
Mat 27:14 And he answered him to never a word; insomuch that the governor marveled greatly.
Mat 21:27 And they answered Jesus, and said, We cannot tell. And he said unto them, Neither tell I you by what authority I do these things.

And that is why there are so many denominations and so much confusion in Christianity. I've read the scriptures and as Christians keep demonstrating, you can read into it anything you want.

You can also diligently search for yourself whether what is being said is what the Bible actually says, or you just want it to confirm your wish.

It is figurative because the man called Saul was not in the man called Jacob. If you disagree, what part of Jacob was Saul in? A man cannot literally be in their own grandfather. Please take the time to look at what it means to say that something is figurative and another is literal. e.g when Babylon is referred to as a LovePeddler, does it mean that Babylon actually is a LovePeddler?

Oga, it is not figurative but literal. The seed is in the man. If the man is impotent, there will be no descendant, simple. We were all in Adam.

But how about the Muslims and Hindus? What are they to do? Their children are already condemned because God allowed them to be born at the wrong place.

Nobody is born in the wrong place. Our opportunities vary, but we all have to take advantage of that opportunity. It's like saying a poor man's kid can never be rich, or vice versa. Being born with a silver spoon is not always a guarantee as i have shown you. And yes, our parents can negatively influence our destinies. Your father may have a chance at hearing the gospel and getting 'rich', a chance he can use to turn your family's future. He can also waste the chance, and cause you unneeded hardship. Meditate on the analogy. God bless you.

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Perhaps because you ask many questions at once? And its often characteristic of answers to be longer than questions. BTW, sorry for the late reply.

Well take your time.

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You miss the point, my point is not that it is special for any purpose. My point was/is that it was not written at once but written in series, step by step, in progression. We were talking about why some of its laws seemed contradictory, and i was showing you the phases and differing periods necessitating some change, like using the street road construct analogy.

So are you saying it isn't special since there have been changes in the laws that would make it conflict with newer ones?

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What sort of excuse is this? Is Hebrews not a book in the Bible? If it had contradictions, would you not consider it as part of the "word of God"? Now it answers your question, you are talking about what Jesus didn't talk about. You need some level of openness. Now, the Bible 'laws' are broadly subdivided into moral laws and ceremonial laws. Ceremonial laws have been done away with, fulfilled, replaced. Moral laws still hold. Ceremonial laws are those involving cleansing, washing, and trying to use religion to please God. The law on homosexuality is a moral law.

Did God divide the laws into ceremonial laws and moral laws or are you the one dividing it as such? Are the laws concerning what one can eat ceremonial or moral? How about laws about the Sabbath? Are they ceremonial or moral? The way Jews then and now understand the law doesn't split them into ceremonial and moral so you're just introducing anything you like.

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The hand came from a human, duh. You can raise your hands and it would not be subject to gravity, at least not immediately. That's my point, that gravity is there, and the 'law of human life' is there. They are not contradicting one another in the sense, they are co-existing. It's the same way some of those Bible laws exist. It's not an exact science like say mathematics, where you always get the same thing. In life, you don't always get the same thing.

Actually, when you raise your hand, it is still subject to gravity that is why you start feeling pains if you keep it up for long periods of time. I don't know why you're introducing this so called "law of human life" here.

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It's the same thing. Countering and violating is simply contravening, disobedience, disregard as it were.

They're not the same thing when it comes to physical laws. Physical laws are the sorts of laws that cannot be disobeyed or violated. You can only act to mitigate its effects. You're confusing prescriptive laws like those in the Bible with descriptive laws like the laws of gravity.

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What is the more general principle? Disbelief in God? On what general principle are homos pushing for acceptance? Is he supposed to make godless statements so as to embrace a 'more general principle'?

The more general principle is the one that all humans have access to i.e the effects on this world that we're all sure of rather than made up ones that preachers use to gain power.

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It's not my work, it's your laziness. you are supposed to search the scriptures, and study to show yourself approved. My attempt to show you is only like drawing me back to what i have passed, in order to help you. It's already balanced to me. One more thing you need to know about the Bible is that it is God's manual to man. It is the design, showing how best man can and should live ON EARTH and in eternity. Most folks look at the scriptures with the lens of eternal judgement. Not every law and instruction has to do with heaven, hell and eternal judgement. Some laws are for you to live long, for your health, your happiness, for a better society. Some think oh, if i don't obey them, i am going to hell and whatever. Some laws are just not that important to your getting to the Kingdom. Now, on diets, compare
Act 10:12 Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air.
Act 10:13 And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat.
Act 10:14 But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean.
Act 10:15 And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.
Act 10:16 This was done thrice: and the vessel was received up again into heaven.
1Tim 4:4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:
1Tim 4:5 For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.

Actually, you're the one who is lazy because if you're unable to show that God nullified some of his laws, why should anyone believe you when you say some laws apply but others don't?

Passages you've posted above are actually a part of the inherent contradictions in your "special" book. God declared some animals unclean and tried to tempt Peter to eat them. He refused because God himself declared them unclean. Haven't you ever wondered whether or not it was the devil that was tempting him with unclean food? Or had God become a tempter? I'm sure that if God had previously declared those foods clean, Peter would have read them in his version of the Bible and would have known. Or is there a place where God said something like "all the animals I previously declared unclean are now clean so you can eat whatever you want".

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For slavery, compare the practical treatment of servants and slaves in the Bible as well. Don't just get fixated on the theory, the practical is also for you, and carries greater marks, as it were. Observe Abraham's relationship with his servants, and other men in the Bible that had servants or slaves, remembering that all things in the Bible are written for our learning. Also, see that there is no more special israel in that sense, hence your quoted passage is redundant.
Gala 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

How exactly is what I said redundant? The practical treatment was that they could be severely beaten and if they didn't die within a day, the owner is okay. Then there's the issue of forcing a man to be a slave because the owner presented him with a wife. What I'm really asking is why did God allow people to buy and sell other people? Didn't he know that it was wrong?
Then the passage you quoted isn't supposed to apply to everyday life but to when the people gather for service. Otherwise, why didn't the disciples say slavery should be abolished?

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On dressing, one, you do not understand the passage you quoted. Two, there are disputes on the interpretation of the verses. So, perhaps you can state what you think those passages mean, then i'll show you what to do about that, thanks.

Deut 22:3: Basically means that people shouldn't cross-dress. while 22:11 means you shouldn't wear clothes made of materials that combine wool and linen. Now go on and tell me what it "really" means.

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whatever, its a minor and i'm not arguing on that. Note however that the OT folks knew for sure of judgement for the wicked. Perhaps, they didn't know the intricacies and mode but they knew that there was a coming time when the wicked would be judged.
Pro 11:21 Though hand join in hand, the wicked shall not be unpunished: but the seed of the righteous shall be delivered.
Pro 16:5 Every one that is proud in heart is an abomination to the LORD: though hand join in hand, he shall not be unpunished.

I don't think eternal punishment is a minor issue. The judgement they had in mind was here on earth not eternal torture. Your quotes say nothing about this.

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Your chance is now, can't you see? Everytime you hear the message to repent, everytime your conscience convicts you, it is your chance to repent. There is so much chance for the world, there is now doubt if God/Jesus would close the chance-door and start judgement. When Jesus comes again, the chance of Lagos and the entire world would be up. There is time for everything. Don't miss the moment homer.

Then let him send the new Jonah that will live in a fish for three days and come on t.v to be interviewed on how he managed to live in a fish for three days. But my point still stands. God was willing to give the small Nineveh a chance but won't give the larger Lagos a chance with his special preacher who will live in a fish for three days.

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Don't really get your point on introducing Noe here. Anyways the flood was sent as a warning, not as a remedy. God never called it a remedy, He knows that sin is ingrained in every human's adamic nature. He procured the remedy/solution as far back as Genesis 3v15. The solution came in Christ. There is time for everything.

Is that how you warn people? By killing everyone and repopulating the world with his hand picked group of 8 people? Do you warn a group of 1000 people by selecting out 4 people who you say obeyed your commands and killing the remaining 996 people? Please read the entire chapter 6 of Genesis. Note what God said in verse 7. Does that sound like a warning to you?

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You're getting it wrong, hell was created before Adam. It was actually initially created for the devil. i think Adam's race feel it is the more the merrier?
Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
God is not going to torture the people that He loves, He is going to take those ones to heaven. Love is reciprocal you know, you have to reciprocate God's love for you by loving Him back. We're talking about dwelling with Him for all of eternity here. That He even gives us a chance is enough love, He had nothing to lose, we did.

Now you're starting to get it. Jesus introduced hell. Why do you think none of the previous prophets spoke about it? Actually, God claims that he loves all people and is a petty being to be saying love me or I'll torture you forever. Are you telling me that if you had a child who doesn't even know you, would you start chasing him and commanding him to love you or you'll torture him forever?

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Its only simple on perspective. You cannot give what you do not have you know? It's every easy to deposit 1trillion dollars. Its perhaps the same deposit slip that is needed, the real point is how many people have 1trillion dollars to deposit?

Did Jesus give 1 trillion lives?
Actually, I have my life and I can give it for a purpose even less than what Jesus did even though I'm not assured of being resurrected and living forever. In fact, people have done it for others so I still don't see what is so special about what Jesus did. It also means that those people even paid a higher sacrifice than Jesus himself.

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Like i shown you, you need to have money before you can think of paying a debt. No man was found able or worthy to pay the debt for sins. Only Jesus was worthy, sufficient. The debt was already paid before the resurrection. The resurrection is the addition, the hope of humanity. Christ's death settled the debt. It made the believer a forgiven debtor. The resurrection gave us victory over physical death and hope of living in eternity and perpetual victory with God. Clearing your debt is not the same as making you the richest man. That's like the difference between Christ's death and resurrection.

No man was even needed since God could have decided not to demand sacrifice anymore. It still doesn't make Jesus' death any more worthy than the death of a soldier for his comrades you know.

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You are not reading what the narrative says. The people of Nineveh repented. They decided. When and if the whole world repents and decides, God is faithful and just to equally forgive. Nineveh could have acted up like Sodom, or the people in Noah's days, or like the Egyptians. They repented. Why are you refusing to see that?
1John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
Nineveh was pro-active, why are you not? Hear is the narrative again, i will embold some portion for you.
Jon 3:4 And Jonah began to enter into the city a day's journey, and he cried, and said, Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown.
Jon 3:5 So the people of Nineveh believed God, and proclaimed a fast, and put on sackcloth, from the greatest of them even to the least of them.
Jon 3:6 For word came unto the king of Nineveh, and he arose from his throne, and he laid his robe from him, and covered him with sackcloth, and sat in ashes.
Jon 3:7 And he caused it to be proclaimed and published through Nineveh by the decree of the king and his nobles, saying, Let neither man nor beast, herd nor flock, taste any thing: let them not feed, nor drink water:
Jon 3:8 But let man and beast be covered with sackcloth, and cry mightily unto God: yea, let them turn every one from his evil way, and from the violence that is in their hands.
Jon 3:9 Who can tell if God will turn and repent, and turn away from his fierce anger, that we perish not?
Jon 3:10 And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.

And you're missing my point. My point once more is that if God could put in this effort on Nineveh's behalf, why doesn't he do that on behalf of Lagos State? Why claim to be sitting and waiting for the whole world when in Nineveh's time, he didn't wait for the whole world?

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i didn't choose my nature as i am not the first man. But i can clearly CHANGE my nature, and so can you. It's called repentance and believing on the Lord Jesus. God made Adam with ability to produce of his kind, its called reproduction. Adam should have chosen the godly and obedient nature. i'm not interested in blaming him, i'm pro-active. You can continue to choose to blame Adam, or God, or anyone else. And you can choose to work on the solution graciously provided.

Since you didn't choose your nature, what makes you think that Adam chose his nature? Can you really change your nature? Can you start flapping your arms and fly like a bird? Or can you decide right now to be homosexual? Then God shouldn't have made Adam with that ability.

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It's not random mercy, i quoted a condition to you, see it again. Don't miss it this time.
Pro 28:13 He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy.
Learn to read the fine print, the terms and conditions. When He says "I will have mercy on WHO I will have mercy", the logical thing to find out is WHO? The Bible states who. God will have mercy on babies, mercy on those that confess and forsake their sins etc. If you meet the conditions, you get the mercy, whosoever you may be. Mercy is not limited to a certain race, nationality, gender or class. God can give His mercy to anybody.
Psa 115:3 But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased.
Ecc 8:4 Where the word of a king is, there is power: and who may say unto him, What doest thou?

But God said he will have mercy on whom he will have mercy. And obviously, he can choose to have mercy on someone who doesn't deserve it so it is still just any random person. You just said God can give mercy to anybody so what is this fine print that you're introducing into the Bible? Be careful that you don't start adding things to the Bible because it is bitter.

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The great commission is not the same as answering every question asked by everybody. The commision is to preach the goodnews. Jesus Himself was not busied into answering every comment and debating every issue. His followers should not be goaded otherwise. They are encouraged instead to use their discretion, and the leading of the Spirit of God.
Mat 26:62 And the high priest arose, and said unto him, Answerest thou nothing? what is it which these witness against thee?
Mat 26:63 But Jesus held his peace. And the high priest answered and said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ, the Son of God.
Luk 23:8 And when Herod saw Jesus, he was exceeding glad: for he was desirous to see him of a long season, because he had heard many things of him; and he hoped to have seen some miracle done by him.
Luk 23:9 Then he questioned with him in many words; but he answered him nothing.
Mat 27:12 And when he was accused of the chief priests and elders, he answered nothing.
Mat 27:13 Then said Pilate unto him, Hearest thou not how many things they witness against thee?
Mat 27:14 And he answered him to never a word; insomuch that the governor marveled greatly.
Mat 21:27 And they answered Jesus, and said, We cannot tell. And he said unto them, Neither tell I you by what authority I do these things.

So you mean they can just go and start blabbing away beside the road hoping that someone will stop and listen? You see, in this modern world, you can expect to have a discussion if you really want to get the message across. Recall that the apostles also admonish you guys to have an answer for the questions you'll inevitably be asked.

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You can also diligently search for yourself whether what is being said is what the Bible actually says, or you just want it to confirm your wish.

If you Christians are already confused, what makes you think that you'll agree with what I have to say about it?

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Oga, it is not figurative but literal. The seed is in the man. If the man is impotent, there will be no descendant, simple. We were all in Adam.

Is Saul a seed or a person? What part of Jacob was Saul in? Was Saul literally in Jacob and his wife? Since without the woman, where would Saul have come from?

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Nobody is born in the wrong place. Our opportunities vary, but we all have to take advantage of that opportunity. It's like saying a poor man's kid can never be rich, or vice versa. Being born with a silver spoon is not always a guarantee as i have shown you. And yes, our parents can negatively influence our destinies. Your father may have a chance at hearing the gospel and getting 'rich', a chance he can use to turn your family's future. He can also waste the chance, and cause you unneeded hardship. Meditate on the analogy. God bless you.

So why did God allow religions other than Christianity to exist? The fact is that you're most likely to belong to the religion most commonly found in your environment. God knew this yet he decided to do nothing. After all, the Muslim believes what he believes as strongly as you do. If the Muslim cannot convince you to follow his religion, why should he be convinced by you?

check this out

thehomer:

Well take your time.



So are you saying it isn't special since there have been changes in the laws that would make it conflict with newer ones?

No, i'm not saying it is not special. i'm saying to focus on the point and the issues. That it was not written at once but written in series, step by step, in progression. We were talking about why some of its laws seemed contradictory, and i was showing you the phases and differing periods necessitating some change, like using the street road construct analogy.

Did God divide the laws into ceremonial laws and moral laws or are you the one dividing it as such? Are the laws concerning what one can eat ceremonial or moral? How about laws about the Sabbath? Are they ceremonial or moral? The way Jews then and now understand the law doesn't split them into ceremonial and moral so you're just introducing anything you like.

Yes, God did. it's like asking if God divided the Bible into chapters and verses. the broad division is inherent and naturally emerges. Some instructions were ceremonial, done like a ritual, to determine clean and unclean as it were. Like offer a turtle dove and sprinkle this. These were all fulfilled in Jesus and became obsolete. Like upgrading an operating system. But moral laws like don't kill, don't steal, they are not obsolete. Christ did not fulfill that for anybody. Each person must not steal etc. Diet laws are moral laws, same with the sabbath. They are not determinants to purity or cleansing. But like i told you earlier, some laws are not do or die, eternal judgement laws. Some folks take every law that way. they go like "if you don't give, hell. If you eat unclean food, hell" Some of God's laws are simply to help us on earth to live a good and decent life to ourselves and to the overall lasting benefit of the society. Such laws are peripheral, the new testament stresses on the core. Your diet, your rest are peripheral to eternity and redemption. Like when i was younger, my parents were strict and observant on my sleeping hours, food intake. Now they are not. Of course they still want me to eat right and sleep well, but those are not major issues again. It's not contradiction.

Actually, when you raise your hand, it is still subject to gravity that is why you start feeling pains if you keep it up for long periods of time. I don't know why you're introducing this so called "law of human life" here.

That's why i said "You can raise your hands and it would not be subject to gravity, at least not immediately." The unobvious point is that two laws operate there. The hand is going up and staying up holding the shoe despite the presence of gravity. It's the same with some of the Bible laws. Two instructions/laws seemingly contradictory but not. Like immediate judgement for an adulterer in the OT. In the NT, the jugdement is not to be immediate. The judgement(gravity) is there alright, but there is a hand of GRACE suspending the judgement from taking effect.

They're not the same thing when it comes to physical laws. Physical laws are the sorts of laws that cannot be disobeyed or violated. You can only act to mitigate its effects. You're confusing prescriptive laws like those in the Bible with descriptive laws like the laws of gravity.

i'm not confusing them, only giving you analogies so that you can get a perspective, seeing you find it difficult to relate with the spiritual.

The more general principle is the one that all humans have access to i.e the effects on this world that we're all sure of rather than made up ones that preachers use to gain power.

And what principle is that? From what i know of law makers, they decide based on highest number of support, not on all human support. there is nothing like a general principle that all humans have access to. One man's poison remains another's meat. The whole world cannot be unanimous until Jesus comes. The majority claim to be religious and most religions frown outwardly on homosexuality, at least the major/'more' religions.

Actually, you're the one who is lazy because if you're unable to show that God nullified some of his laws, why should anyone believe you when you say some laws apply but others don't?

i already showed it with the hebrew passage.

Passages you've posted above are actually a part of the inherent contradictions in your "special" book. God declared some animals unclean and tried to tempt Peter to eat them. He refused because God himself declared them unclean. Haven't you ever wondered whether or not it was the devil that was tempting him with unclean food? Or had God become a tempter? I'm sure that if God had previously declared those foods clean, Peter would have read them in his version of the Bible and would have known. Or is there a place where God said something like "all the animals I previously declared unclean are now clean so you can eat whatever you want".

It's obvious that you have decided to read in your fancy into the clear passages. To you, God evidently declared unclean food as that sounds ridiculous to you, but in the Acts passage, i'm to join you in wondering if it is God or the devil? keep deluding yourself. The passage leaves no wonder, Peter doesn't neither does time and all of my experience, you carry first here in telling me to wonder if it was God speaking in that passage.

How exactly is what I said redundant? The practical treatment was that they could be severely beaten and if they didn't die within a day, the owner is okay. Then there's the issue of forcing a man to be a slave because the owner presented him with a wife. What I'm really asking is why did God allow people to buy and sell other people? Didn't he know that it was wrong?
Then the passage you quoted isn't supposed to apply to everyday life but to when the people gather for service. Otherwise, why didn't the disciples say slavery should be abolished?

The Leviticus 25 passage gives a clause between Israelites and heathens/strangers if you cared to read. Galatians deletes that difference.
Gala 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Deut 22:3: Basically means that people shouldn't cross-dress. while 22:11 means you shouldn't wear clothes made of materials that combine wool and linen. Now go on and tell me what it "really" means.

Like i said, there are disputes on the interpretation of the verses. i'll show you what to do about that. I agree with the verse 5 interpretation, and people should not cross dress, yes. The other one, i disagree with your conclusion. Search the scriptures, search.

I don't think eternal punishment is a minor issue. The judgement they had in mind was here on earth not eternal torture. Your quotes say nothing about this.

i don't think eternal judgement is a minor issue either. i think our argument on whether the OT people knew of it or not is a minor issue, and i'm not interested in arguing or proving that with YOU.

Then let him send the new Jonah that will live in a fish for three days and come on t.v to be interviewed on how he managed to live in a fish for three days. But my point still stands. God was willing to give the small Nineveh a chance but won't give the larger Lagos a chance with his special preacher who will live in a fish for three days.

He sent Jesus already. He was in the dead and buried for three days. Jonah wasn't moving up and down telling fish stories, the passage is lucid enough on what he told Nineveh. Try to stop concocting ideas into scripture, read it instead. Jesus is your special preacher given, receive Him.

Is that how you warn people? By killing everyone and repopulating the world with his hand picked group of 8 people? Do you warn a group of 1000 people by selecting out 4 people who you say obeyed your commands and killing the remaining 996 people? Please read the entire chapter 6 of Genesis. Note what God said in verse 7. Does that sound like a warning to you?

seems you missed it. They are a warning to us and others that were after Noe's generation.
2Pe 2:5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;
2Pe 2:6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an example unto those that after should live ungodly;

Now you're starting to get it. Jesus introduced hell. Why do you think none of the previous prophets spoke about it? Actually, God claims that he loves all people and is a petty being to be saying love me or I'll torture you forever. Are you telling me that if you had a child who doesn't even know you, would you start chasing him and commanding him to love you or you'll torture him forever?

i want to believe by now that you realise that hell was prepared for the devil and his angels. If you do not love God, you are going to hell. that's the simple truth, whatever you think about it. That is reality, call it by whatever adjective that you wish. No sinner is a child of God. Sinners are children of the devil. When you repent, you become God's child and He becomes your Father.
2Co 6:17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you.
2Co 6:18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

Did Jesus give 1 trillion lives?
Actually, I have my life and I can give it for a purpose even less than what Jesus did even though I'm not assured of being resurrected and living forever. In fact, people have done it for others so I still don't see what is so special about what Jesus did. It also means that those people even paid a higher sacrifice than Jesus himself.

So you think one dollar equals a life, is that how you value life? You can't give what you do not have. You do not have a clean, spotless, acceptable life. No human being born of Adam does, for all have sinned and come short of God's glory. My analogy shows you that it may be easy to give, but that is if you have it. It's the same process to deposit even 10dollars. It's like killing your neighbour's animal and bringing him your own dead animal, or an offender on life term wanting to serve the sentence of another offender on life term. It's not a considerable option.

No man was even needed since God could have decided not to demand sacrifice anymore. It still doesn't make Jesus' death any more worthy than the death of a soldier for his comrades you know.

And on what do you base this assertion that God could have decided not to demand sacrifice anymore? The scripture says otherwise. The soul that sins will die, it was the same thing that was told Adam. Perhaps, he was thinking along your lines too. i guess you ought to know better, having the benefit of hindsight and the whole Bible at your disposal.

And you're missing my point. My point once more is that if God could put in this effort on Nineveh's behalf, why doesn't he do that on behalf of Lagos State? Why claim to be sitting and waiting for the whole world when in Nineveh's time, he didn't wait for the whole world?

God sent Lagos and you something better and greater than Jonah. he sent you Jesus Christ once and for all/everybody. Or you want Him to be sending Him every 33 years?
Heb 7:27 Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.
God sent just one Jonah to warn Nineveh. He has sent countless men to warn Lagos and to warn you. He has sent you the Bible, i doubt if Nineveh were given that one. He has delayed and delayed your judgement in the hope that you would repent. Some afre turning to Christ, thank God. you too can, if you are pro-active.
2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Rom 2:4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

Since you didn't choose your nature, what makes you think that Adam chose his nature? Can you really change your nature? Can you start flapping your arms and fly like a bird? Or can you decide right now to be homosexual? Then God shouldn't have made Adam with that ability.

The Bible records make me think so. You can change your nature once you give your life to Christ Jesus in repentance.
2Co 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
We've been talking about the spiritual and godly nature, not about birds, concentrate. Any human can decide to sin, sin is in the human nature. All that is needed is some push/influence. There are many who were straight and clean until the were exposed to the influence of pros.titute friends, running abroad to make money, hostel, po.rnography etc.

But God said he will have mercy on whom he will have mercy. And obviously, he can choose to have mercy on someone who doesn't deserve it so it is still just any random person. You just said God can give mercy to anybody so what is this fine print that you're introducing into the Bible? Be careful that you don't start adding things to the Bible because it is bitter.

"i will have mercy on whom I will have mercy" is an indication that God's mercy is not limited to a special race or tribe. It crosses boundaries, all you need to do is meet the conditions given in the book. Here is a condition for someone like you.
Isa 55:7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.
1Jo 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
The fine print statement is a metaphor telling you to pay attention to the details. instead of gloating on a verse or a promise, read the fine print, note the conditions and terms. God's promises are always conditional, that's a nugget you need to stick into yourself forever.

So you mean they can just go and start blabbing away beside the road hoping that someone will stop and listen? You see, in this modern world, you can expect to have a discussion if you really want to get the message across. Recall that the apostles also admonish you guys to have an answer for the questions you'll inevitably be asked.

i never mentioned anything about blabbing, i don't know where you pulled that out of. Sorry i do not recall the apostles admonishing anyone to have an answer for the questions they'll be asked. Kindly remind me.

If you Christians are already confused, what makes you think that you'll agree with what I have to say about it?

i'm not confused, thank God. You can also diligently search for yourself whether what is being said is what the Bible actually says, or you just want it to confirm your wish. No need to join yourself with the confused. Many atheists are also confused BTW. i remember Friedrich Nietzsche, the german atheist who was a very influential 'thinker', and probably many a atheist's mentor. He lived a confused, sad and sick life. He ended up in the assylum with his level of confusion. You should read up on him, or refresh yourself. i have to warn, his tale is not a very palatable one though.

Is Saul a seed or a person? What part of Jacob was Saul in? Was Saul literally in Jacob and his wife? Since without the woman, where would Saul have come from?

He was a seed then a person. Seeds become fruits and trees. Human beings are referred to as seeds of their ancestors.
Gen 15:13 And he said unto Abram, Know of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land that is not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years;
Gen 16:10 And the angel of the LORD said unto her, I will multiply thy seed exceedingly, that it shall not be numbered for multitude.
Deu 1:8 Behold, I have set the land before you: go in and possess the land which the LORD swore unto your fathers, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, to give unto them and to their seed after them.
2Ki 17:20 And the LORD rejected all the seed of Israel, and afflicted them, and delivered them into the hand of spoilers, until he had cast them out of his sight.
Without seed in man, the man would not BEAR children.

So why did God allow religions other than Christianity to exist? The fact is that you're most likely to belong to the religion most commonly found in your environment. God knew this yet he decided to do nothing. After all, the Muslim believes what he believes as strongly as you do. If the Muslim cannot convince you to follow his religion, why should he be convinced by you?

People convert from various religions every other day. the choice is still yours. i verily doubt that you were born into an atheist family, you are a living proof that people can leave the religion they were born into i guess. It's not about God's decision, but it boils down to the individual's personal decision. It's sometimes called free will. Like i said, we are not all chanced to the same opportunities. It is important to take advantage with the chances/opportunities presented. There may be just one chance, and one goal in the whole match of life. If you lose your chance, you endanger your seed's chances too. that's how important it might boil down to. Some people, when they had the opportunity to study, travel, 'make it', build or buy property, they trifled with it. Years later, such opportunities didn't come again. All they have is tales, and children and family suffering because of the missed opportunities of their parent. And the circle may dangerously continue. one or two or all of the children may struggle or be encouraged to 'make it'. This is life, this is reality, it is the same way in spiritual things. Perhaps, your case is the opposite, surrounded by folks that pray for you, and wish you to be strong for God. It's your time, your opportunity. Some sheik's son is getting saved. Some babalawo's brother and daughter are coming to know the Lord. That is life, that's reality.

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No, i'm not saying it is not special. i'm saying to focus on the point and the issues. That it was not written at once but written in series, step by step, in progression. We were talking about why some of its laws seemed contradictory, and i was showing you the phases and differing periods necessitating some change, like using the street road construct analogy.

Are the other books I mentioned special? And you seem to be agreeing that some of the laws have changed. The question now is why those laws and not other laws?

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Yes, God did. it's like asking if God divided the Bible into chapters and verses. the broad division is inherent and naturally emerges. Some instructions were ceremonial, done like a ritual, to determine clean and unclean as it were. Like offer a turtle dove and sprinkle this. These were all fulfilled in Jesus and became obsolete. Like upgrading an operating system. But moral laws like don't kill, don't steal, they are not obsolete. Christ did not fulfill that for anybody. Each person must not steal etc. Diet laws are moral laws, same with the sabbath. They are not determinants to purity or cleansing. But like i told you earlier, some laws are not do or die, eternal judgement laws. Some folks take every law that way. they go like "if you don't give, hell. If you eat unclean food, hell" Some of God's laws are simply to help us on earth to live a good and decent life to ourselves and to the overall lasting benefit of the society. Such laws are peripheral, the new testament stresses on the core. Your diet, your rest are peripheral to eternity and redemption. Like when i was younger, my parents were strict and observant on my sleeping hours, food intake. Now they are not. Of course they still want me to eat right and sleep well, but those are not major issues again. It's not contradiction.

God didn't divide the Bible into chapters and verses, men did. It shows that you don't even know much about how your Bible came about.
Where did God do this? And you're saying that the dietary laws and the sabbath laws are moral laws? This means you shouldn't eat sea-food except maybe fish and you shouldn't eat pork and the other animals listed or you'll go to hell. It also means that you'll go to hell for working on the Sabbath. Now what makes these dietary laws and Sabbath laws moral laws?

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That's why i said "You can raise your hands and it would not be subject to gravity, at least not immediately." The unobvious point is that two laws operate there. The hand is going up and staying up holding the shoe despite the presence of gravity. It's the same with some of the Bible laws. Two instructions/laws seemingly contradictory but not. Like immediate judgement for an adulterer in the OT. In the NT, the jugdement is not to be immediate. The judgement(gravity) is there alright, but there is a hand of GRACE suspending the judgement from taking effect.

And I'm telling you that your hands are always subject to gravity even when they're not raised. That is why if it was cut off at the wrist, it will drop to the ground even if you weren't raising it so your analogy simply doesn't work at all. And they are still contradictory. In the OT, who was casting the punishment? In the NT, who is casting the punishment? What you don't realize is that what happened when Jesus was there is that he stopped the act that was brought before him. If it wasn't brought before him, that woman would have been killed so I don't see this hand of grace what I see is that modern people simply don't carry out those barbaric acts.

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i'm not confusing them, only giving you analogies so that you can get a perspective, seeing you find it difficult to relate with the spiritual.

Your analogies are bad and they're showing that you don't understand the nature of what you're trying to use for explanation.

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And what principle is that? From what i know of law makers, they decide based on highest number of support, not on all human support. there is nothing like a general principle that all humans have access to. One man's poison remains another's meat. The whole world cannot be unanimous until Jesus comes. The majority claim to be religious and most religions frown outwardly on homosexuality, at least the major/'more' religions.

I was talking about the principle that they should use not the one that they currently use. My point is that what they and Adeboye currently use is flawed. If the lawmakers decided that since most Nigerians are Muslims, they would make the 5 daily prayers mandatory would that be fine with you? You are aware that all humans have access to this natural world. The difference is that some like you have added the supernatural.

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i already showed it with the hebrew passage.

No you didn't. That wasn't God or Jesus talking and it doesn't say that a law has been removed. It said a law can be removed if it is useless. Now even if we assume that Jesus said it, how do you decide which law is useful and which one is useless?

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It's obvious that you have decided to read in your fancy into the clear passages. To you, God evidently declared unclean food as that sounds ridiculous to you, but in the Acts passage, i'm to join you in wondering if it is God or the devil? keep deluding yourself. The passage leaves no wonder, Peter doesn't neither does time and all of my experience, you carry first here in telling me to wonder if it was God speaking in that passage.

Actually, you're the one reading things into that passage talking about the vision. The point of that vision was that Peter should go and preach to gentiles but he was refusing by calling them unclean but since you always see things literally, where did God literally say he had renounced his former dietary laws? Giving me someone's dream isn't good enough since as I'm sure you know, a dream isn't the same thing as the real incident.

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The Leviticus 25 passage gives a clause between Israelites and heathens/strangers if you cared to read. Galatians deletes that difference.
Gala 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Galatians only says that with respect to the view of maybe when in church otherwise, why was the Ephesians passage talking about slaves obeying their masters with fear and trembling? Looks like you've found another contradiction in the New Testament. I mean, are slaves to obey their masters with fear and trembling or are they to act as if they're all equals?

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Like i said, there are disputes on the interpretation of the verses. i'll show you what to do about that. I agree with the verse 5 interpretation, and people should not cross dress, yes. The other one, i disagree with your conclusion. Search the scriptures, search.

I know you said that but you've not shown what these disputes are. You asked for what I thought I told you now you're running away from giving your own explanation? Asking me to keep looking is just laziness on your part.

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i don't think eternal judgement is a minor issue either. i think our argument on whether the OT people knew of it or not is a minor issue, and i'm not interested in arguing or proving that with YOU.

Looks like you've run out of steam once you've been shown not to know what you're talking about.

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He sent Jesus already. He was in the dead and buried for three days. Jonah wasn't moving up and down telling fish stories, the passage is lucid enough on what he told Nineveh. Try to stop concocting ideas into scripture, read it instead. Jesus is your special preacher given, receive Him.

Did Jesus visit Lagos? Did Governor Fasola see him? Did any other Lagosian in the past 20 years meet Jesus? You may as well have said that the people of Nineveh should have heard about Jacob and done the right thing without having Jonah come there.

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seems you missed it. They are a warning to us and others that were after Noe's generation.
2Pe 2:5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;
2Pe 2:6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an example unto those that after should live ungodly;

Come on. Is that how to read the Bible? No wonder people keep seeing whatever they want to see. The warning was referring to Sodom and Gomorrah not to Noah's flood. Noah's flood wasn't a warning. Even if you want to claim the flood as a warning, is that how you warn people? By killing everyone who opposes you leaving only those who support you? That isn't warning since you've killed all those who disobeyed, that is judgement.

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i want to believe by now that you realise that hell was prepared for the devil and his angels. If you do not love God, you are going to hell. that's the simple truth, whatever you think about it. That is reality, call it by whatever adjective that you wish. No sinner is a child of God. Sinners are children of the devil. When you repent, you become God's child and He becomes your Father.
2Co 6:17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you.
2Co 6:18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

That commits the no true Scotsman fallacy. Sinners are children of the devil yet all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. Now those who repent become children of God but they can sin and once they sin, they become children of the devil again. I wonder what unclean thing is being spoken of here since you previously quoted to me a passage about God sanctifying all creation. Another contradiction right there.

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So you think one dollar equals a life, is that how you value life? You can't give what you do not have. You do not have a clean, spotless, acceptable life. No human being born of Adam does, for all have sinned and come short of God's glory. My analogy shows you that it may be easy to give, but that is if you have it. It's the same process to deposit even 10dollars. It's like killing your neighbour's animal and bringing him your own dead animal, or an offender on life term wanting to serve the sentence of another offender on life term. It's not a considerable option.

And I'm telling you that people have given their lives for less than 100 people. What then makes Jesus giving one life for more than 50 billion people more difficult? Note that I'm talking about the difficulty here. It is the difficulty that makes it a sacrifice if a sacrifice were easy, will it be called a sacrifice? Then there's the fact that the person who gave his life for less than 100 people isn't sure of being resurrected but Jesus was. So his so called "sacrifice" was done and he was rewarded so I see the person giving his life for less than 100 people as having done the larger sacrifice. Just as the widow who gives her mite does more than the one who gives more money out of his huge reserves.

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And on what do you base this assertion that God could have decided not to demand sacrifice anymore? The scripture says otherwise. The soul that sins will die, it was the same thing that was told Adam. Perhaps, he was thinking along your lines too. i guess you ought to know better, having the benefit of hindsight and the whole Bible at your disposal.

Because God is supposed to be God. He made the laws, he obviously decides to change it from time to time and he decides to break it from time to time so why couldn't he have done that as usual? Scripture doesn't say otherwise. Scripture shows that God breaks is laws and changes his laws.

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God sent Lagos and you something better and greater than Jonah. he sent you Jesus Christ once and for all/everybody. Or you want Him to be sending Him every 33 years?
Heb 7:27 Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.
God sent just one Jonah to warn Nineveh. He has sent countless men to warn Lagos and to warn you. He has sent you the Bible, i doubt if Nineveh were given that one. He has delayed and delayed your judgement in the hope that you would repent. Some afre turning to Christ, thank God. you too can, if you are pro-active.
2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Rom 2:4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

No he didn't send Jesus because Jesus is yet to visit Lagos. Sure why not? What else is Jesus doing there in heaven? Let him show up and display a bit more in these modern times with modern technology for review not in the ancient times when people didn't know about bacteria that could kill them.

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The Bible records make me think so. You can change your nature once you give your life to Christ Jesus in repentance.
2Co 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
We've been talking about the spiritual and godly nature, not about birds, concentrate. Any human can decide to sin, sin is in the human nature. All that is needed is some push/influence. There are many who were straight and clean until the were exposed to the influence of pros.titute friends, running abroad to make money, hostel, po.rnography etc.

Well, obviously many gay people have tried and failed, many priests have tried and failed so according to you, they didn't try hard enough I guess. Do you think that if you met prostitute friends, ran abroad to make money, went to a hostel or was exposed to pornography, you could have become gay? What a joke.

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"i will have mercy on whom I will have mercy" is an indication that God's mercy is not limited to a special race or tribe. It crosses boundaries, all you need to do is meet the conditions given in the book. Here is a condition for someone like you.
Isa 55:7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.
1Jo 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
The fine print statement is a metaphor telling you to pay attention to the details. instead of gloating on a verse or a promise, read the fine print, note the conditions and terms. God's promises are always conditional, that's a nugget you need to stick into yourself forever.

Again, you're putting words into God's mouth and into the Bible. You're in danger of increasing your punishment. God said he'll have mercy on whoever he wants. You're saying it is only on those who meet certain requirements. Are you now the one telling God who he will have mercy on?

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i never mentioned anything about blabbing, i don't know where you pulled that out of. Sorry i do not recall the apostles admonishing anyone to have an answer for the questions they'll be asked. Kindly remind me.

You Christians that don't know your Bible and turn to non-believers to help you. I shake my head. Anyway, take a look at 1 Peter 3:15.

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i'm not confused, thank God. You can also diligently search for yourself whether what is being said is what the Bible actually says, or you just want it to confirm your wish. No need to join yourself with the confused. Many atheists are also confused BTW. i remember Friedrich Nietzsche, the german atheist who was a very influential 'thinker', and probably many a atheist's mentor. He lived a confused, sad and sick life. He ended up in the assylum with his level of confusion. You should read up on him, or refresh yourself. i have to warn, his tale is not a very palatable one though.

I've checked and I'm telling you. I'm also telling you that your fellow Christians don't even believe the way you do yet you're asking me to turn to the source of their confusion (the Bible) for answers? I don't know what Nietzsche has to do with anything I've said here.

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He was a seed then a person. Seeds become fruits and trees. Human beings are referred to as seeds of their ancestors.
Gen 15:13 And he said unto Abram, Know of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land that is not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years;
Gen 16:10 And the angel of the LORD said unto her, I will multiply thy seed exceedingly, that it shall not be numbered for multitude.
Deu 1:8 Behold, I have set the land before you: go in and possess the land which the LORD swore unto your fathers, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, to give unto them and to their seed after them.
2Ki 17:20 And the LORD rejected all the seed of Israel, and afflicted them, and delivered them into the hand of spoilers, until he had cast them out of his sight.
Without seed in man, the man would not BEAR children.

So a seed is different from a person isn't it? Now what part of the mother was Saul in? Or was he in Jacob and his wife at the same time? This is what happens when you only see things literally.

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People convert from various religions every other day. the choice is still yours. i verily doubt that you were born into an atheist family, you are a living proof that people can leave the religion they were born into i guess. It's not about God's decision, but it boils down to the individual's personal decision. It's sometimes called free will. Like i said, we are not all chanced to the same opportunities. It is important to take advantage with the chances/opportunities presented. There may be just one chance, and one goal in the whole match of life. If you lose your chance, you endanger your seed's chances too. that's how important it might boil down to. Some people, when they had the opportunity to study, travel, 'make it', build or buy property, they trifled with it. Years later, such opportunities didn't come again. All they have is tales, and children and family suffering because of the missed opportunities of their parent. And the circle may dangerously continue. one or two or all of the children may struggle or be encouraged to 'make it'. This is life, this is reality, it is the same way in spiritual things. Perhaps, your case is the opposite, surrounded by folks that pray for you, and wish you to be strong for God. It's your time, your opportunity. Some sheik's son is getting saved. Some babalawo's brother and daughter are coming to know the Lord. That is life, that's reality.

Yes and people convert from Christianity every other day so the choice is still yours on whether you want to continue being a Christian. Some pastor's son is losing their faith and some pastor's brother and daughter are leaving Christianity. But you still miss my point. My point is that God knew that parental influence would be a major factor in whether or not a person is religious so why did he allow so many religions before and after Christianity? The fact that I managed to escape shows you that I'm an exception to the norm.

^enjoy your points. i have other important things to do with my time, thanks.

Image123: ^enjoy your points. i have other important things to do with my time, thanks.

Good. I guess it is a good sign when giving a reason for your hope isn't very important. Just keep the things I've written in mind while you go through those important things.

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Good. I guess it is a good sign when giving a reason for your hope isn't very important. Just keep the things I've written in mind while you go through those important things.

The Word of God is always on my mind, no space.

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did he steal from you or confuse you or you're just increasing your number of posts on nl?

im againt u calln him a thief.