Bidam: We are to search and study, rightly dividing the Word (according to Torah) with God's Spirit. We are not to casually read and wait for some "personal enlightenment." This is how false teachings come about, how cults are formed and how people fall into grave sin without realizing it.

Sharrap there! When I said I read, doesn't that suggest to you that I have STUDIED it before? You think I'm just reading Galatians for the first time? Smh on you! Anyway, I'm here for you and Ihedinobi today.

Ihedinobi, wait for me o....unfortunately, I don't have enough time to talk to you on phone as promised but lemme deal with this topic here first before we talk on phone. No mind me, we are cool and we'll remain brothers till Christ comes.

ayoku777:

@ Goshen

thanks, why would we need to know what the law says to do and what not to do when i can just be spirit-led and let him live out the life of Christ through me. People thing the holy spirit is given to help us obey the law, no, he helps us manifest the life of Christ in us

This kind of statement is like saying a manufacturer creates a product and directly gives a user to operate the product without a manual. This kind of spirit led Christianity has led to many heresies in the body of Christ.

The problem here is that bidam looks at sin from the angle of the law forgetting that these sins had been there before the law. Sin was imputed into man through Adam and observing the law does not make any amends to our dented status in the mind of God. Obeying the mosaic law was not enough for the jewish nation therefore the nation of israel had to make sacrifices for atonement yearly.

Our belief does not only make us above the mosaic law, it imputed righteousness in us which makes us justified. All the manual we need is the Pauline epistle and not the Jewish experience with God. That is not to say we can't pick 1 or more attributes of God from the old.

Goshen360:

New Living Translation (©2007)
Let me put it another way. The law was our guardian until Christ came; it protected us until we could be made right with God through faith. And now that the way of faith has come, we no longer need the law as our guardian.

Expanded Bible (EXB)
In other words, the law was our ·guardian [child-minder; tutor; C an attendant slave who watched over a child in a wealthy Greco-Roman household] ·leading us to [or until] Christ so that we could be ·made right with God [declared righteous; justified] through faith. 25 Now ·the way of faith [ faith] has come, and we no longer live under a ·guardian [child-minder; tutor; v. 24].

Galatians 3:24-25.



Ihedinobi,

You're still allowing the Mosaic law which wasn't written to you as a Christian to tell or guide or lead you as to what is right or wrong. That's Judaism, a religion according of the law of Moses. When Christ, Grace and the Spirit came, you are now set free from the law of Moses to serve in the newness of spirit. It used to be the law that tells people what is right or wrong but now, it is the Spirit of God that tells Christians what is right or wrong through the knowledge of the word of God.

New Living Translation (©2007)
But when you are directed by the Spirit, you are not under obligation to the law of Moses.

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
If your spiritual nature is your guide, you are not subject to Moses' laws.

Galatians 5:18

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
In the same way, brothers and sisters, you have died to the laws in Moses' Teachings through Christ's body. You belong to someone else, the one who was brought back to life. As a result, we can do what God wants.

Expanded Bible (EXB)
In the same way, my brothers and sisters, ·your old selves died, and you became free from the law [ you died to the law] through the body of Christ. This happened so that you might belong to someone else—the One who was raised from the dead—and so that we might ·be used in service to [ bear fruit for] God.

Romans 7:4

You remember this scripture we were sharing from the other thread right? I'm sure you do. Now, it's like this; when you as a Nigerian leave the country and migrate to another country and becomes the citizen of the new country. This new country is where you live, earn your income, make a good living and meet all your needs. Should anything happen say for instance, war. Who are you gonna bear allegiance to?

This is the same way Paul described the WAR between the Spirit and the flesh (the law). Now when you died or crucified with Christ, you died to sin, its appetite and also died to the law (of Moses), Romans 7:4 because through the law is the knowledge or consciousness of sin, Romans 3:20 & 7:7 and you're left with the Spirit to guide or lead you. This the the war going on between most Christians and they don't know how to win this war. Simply submit or yield to the leading of the Spirit, you're already dead to the law and its consciousness to tell you what is right and wrong. Put in a better way, the Spirit in this dispensation had replaced the law of Moses to tell Christians how to live right or wrong.

Ok. Still I haven't seen what "right and wrong" means in this dispensation. That was what I asked for. Could you tell me now?

@shdemidemi My point is God did give us the intellectual ability to search for true meaning and correctly interpret His Word (Acts 17:11; 2 Timothy 2:15). To say that one need "only rely on the Holy Spirit," for understanding of the text, is both foolish and unscriptural, as it implies that the Spirit could contradict God's word.

Ihedinobi:

So which is the law of Moses and which the law of Christ?

Ihedinobi, why are you pretending as if you don't know what that scripture is saying? (Just my assumption anyway). The way of the law of Moses says, "It is through obeying the law that a person has life." Galatians 3:12; Leviticus 18:5. That's the way of the law of Moses - To get life, you must obey the law given at that time.

New Living Translation (©2007)
For Moses writes that the law's way of making a person right with God requires obedience to all of its commands. Romans 10:5

To be right and justified with God, you must obey ALL the Mosaic law. It's called righteousness [s]by the law of Moses or according to the law of Moses, in KJV language[/b] which was temporary until the way of faith should come. Now, that the way of faith had come, no more is the way of the law of Moses needed.

Now, in this dispensation of Grace, what is the way of faith to life or having life; is it still by obedience to the whole law of Moses or what? Following me into the word,

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? John 11:25-26

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
In him (Christ) was life; and the life was the light of men. John 1:4

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory. Colossians 3:4

New International Version (©2011)
I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. Galatians 2:20

The way of faith says, it is faith in Christ that gives life because the law was given until Christ should come and the law was a shadow, pointing to Christ. Now, that Christ had come, it is faith in Christ, the finished works on the cross and His resurrection that brings\gives life. Christ replaced the law in which the people then found life because Christ had not come yet then. These are two different ways - 1, Do ALL the things written in the law of Moses and you shall have life is righteousness ACCORDING TO THE LAW AND THE RELIGIOUS OF JUDAISM; 2, Have faith or believe in Christ in whom is life, and you shall have life of the Son of God, nothing added and no more requirements of or obedience to the mosaic law. Obey the law and have life was okay for that dispensation but when Christ came, a man is not justify by obeying the laws of Moses but by faith in Christ. Romans 3:28; So we are made right with God through faith and not by obeying the law. New Living Translation

Galatians 2:16 explicitly says what faith we have towards - it is faith in Christ and in Christ is life, John 1:4 without adding the obedience to the law of Moses.

New Living Translation (©2007)
Yet we know that a person is made right with God by faith in Jesus Christ, not by obeying the law. And we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we might be made right with God because of our faith in Christ, not because we have obeyed the law. For no one will ever be made right with God by obeying the law."

Can you see the two different ways? Can you see how the way of faith\believing (in Christ, gives life) is different from the way of the law (of Moses, gets life by obeying ALL the commandments)?

I will continue to answer the rest of your question showing how what the law says and what faith requires on other questions you asked. This response is long and I don't wanna put all together is it won't be too long an epistle to read.

Pls i want to undastand those that are rooting for the law of Moses, what are ur arguments brothers?

christemmbassey: Pls i want to undastand those that are rooting for the law of Moses, what are ur arguments brothers?

I tire oh Despite all the several crystal clear injunctions in the bible that christians are not subject to the mosaic laws.

christemmbassey: Pls i want to undastand those that are rooting for the law of Moses, what are ur arguments brothers?

They believe or are saying only faith or believing in Christ and his finished works is just too simply. They argue that, obeying the law of Moses and its commandments are also required in addition to faith in Christ. That's all I see except they wanna answer for themselves.

Goshen360:

They believe or are saying only faith or believing in Christ and his finished works is just too simply. They argue that, obeying the law of Moses and its commandments are also required in addition to faith in Christ. That's all I see except they wanna answer for themselves.

plz lets hear from our brothers. Peace

Goshen360:

Ihedinobi, why are you pretending as if you don't know what that scripture is saying? (Just my assumption anyway). The way of the law of Moses says, "It is through obeying the law that a person has life." Galatians 3:12; Leviticus 18:5. That's the way of the law of Moses - To get life, you must obey the law given at that time.

New Living Translation (©2007)
For Moses writes that the law's way of making a person right with God requires obedience to all of its commands. Romans 10:5

To be right and justified with God, you must obey ALL the Mosaic law. It's called righteousness [s]by the law of Moses or according to the law of Moses, in KJV language[/b] which was temporary until the way of faith should come. Now, that the way of faith had come, no more is the way of the law of Moses needed.

Now, in this dispensation of Grace, what is the way of faith to life or having life; is it still by obedience to the whole law of Moses or what? Following me into the word,

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? John 11:25-26

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
In him (Christ) was life; and the life was the light of men. John 1:4

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory. Colossians 3:4

New International Version (©2011)
I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. Galatians 2:20

The way of faith says, it is faith in Christ that gives life because the law was given until Christ should come and the law was a shadow, pointing to Christ. Now, that Christ had come, it is faith in Christ, the finished works on the cross and His resurrection that brings\gives life. Christ replaced the law in which the people then found life because Christ had not come yet then. These are two different ways - 1, Do ALL the things written in the law of Moses and you shall have life is righteousness ACCORDING TO THE LAW AND THE RELIGIOUS OF JUDAISM; 2, Have faith or believe in Christ in whom is life, and you shall have life of the Son of God, nothing added and no more requirements of or obedience to the mosaic law. Obey the law and have life was okay for that dispensation but when Christ came, a man is not justify by obeying the laws of Moses but by faith in Christ. Romans 3:28; So we are made right with God through faith and not by obeying the law. New Living Translation

Galatians 2:16 explicitly says what faith we have towards - it is faith in Christ and in Christ is life, John 1:4 without adding the obedience to the law of Moses.

New Living Translation (©2007)
Yet we know that a person is made right with God by faith in Jesus Christ, not by obeying the law. And we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we might be made right with God because of our faith in Christ, not because we have obeyed the law. For no one will ever be made right with God by obeying the law."

Can you see the two different ways? Can you see how the way of faith\believing (in Christ, gives life) is different from the way of the law (of Moses, gets life by obeying ALL the commandments)?

I will continue to answer the rest of your question showing how what the law says and what faith requires on other questions you asked. This response is long and I don't wanna put all together is it won't be too long an epistle to read.

Ok. So Moses requires total obedience to the law for salvation and Christ requires only faith, right? What is the product of faith, pray tell?

Pastor Kun:

I tire oh Despite all the several crystal clear injunctions in the bible that christians are not subject to the mosaic laws.

pastor kun and christemmbassy, i tire too. The continued disagreement stems from the pride of the human heart that turns a simple discussion into a thing of ego. Truth will prevail ultimately and the truth is that through faith in christ's death and resurrection we receive the gift of salvation, righteousness and the holy spirit without any works attached to keeping it.

ayoku777:

pastor kun and christemmbassy, i tire too. The continued disagreement stems from the pride of the human heart that turns a simple discussion into a thing of ego. Truth will prevail ultimately and the truth is that through faith in christ's death and resurrection we receive the gift of salvation, righteousness and the holy spirit without any works attached to keeping it.

i just want to undastand our brothers , they may be saying something very reasonable.

Goshen360:

Sharrap there! When I said I read, doesn't that suggest to you that I have STUDIED it before? You think I'm just reading Galatians for the first time? Smh on you! Anyway, I'm here for you and Ihedinobi today.

Nope sorry the word reading doesn't suggest that. In READING Paul's letters do you

1. Know about (Paul's) Pharasaical understanding of Scripture.
2. Know of the Hebrew methods of interpretation and teaching that Paul used and which existed since before Paul's time.
3. Know of the deeper mystical aspects of Paul's Hebrew theology.
4. Know that the Hebrew concepts Paul tries to convey are not carried over well into the Greek language. (i.e., to convey the idea of "legalistic following of the commandments away from faith," the phrase erga nomos, meaning "works of the Law," had to be "created" as such concept did not exist in the Greek language at that time).
5.Come to Paul's letters with a bias instilled in you by your own theology. (i.e.,you are already taught the idea that Paul taught "we're not under the Law" before you even begin "studying" his teachings.)
A Yes or No reply will suffice.Thanks.

Bidam: This kind of statement is like saying a manufacturer creates a product and directly gives a user to operate the product without a manual. This kind of spirit led Christianity has led to many heresies in the body of Christ.

bidam, there is a mistake you're making, you're equating the scriptures to the law of moses, that everytime we read and study the scripture we are studying moses, nah nah nah. The scripture is bigger than moses and the law, the scripture is the whole revelation of Christ and the redemption plan of God through Christ.

So, yes, being led of the spirit will include the scriptures, but if the holy spirit uses the scriptures to guide us, he isn't using the law of moses. Ok, how did joseph know that committing adultery with potipher's wife will grieve God, even before the law of moses came. So the spirit uses the scriptures but don't equate it with the law

Great thread.. If I didn't know any better, I would have thought I was one one of those grail message threads..

But pray, tell me, did Christ mean for CHRISTIANITY to be this 'difficult'?

ayoku777:

bidam, there is a mistake you're making, you're equating the scriptures to the law of moses, that everytime we read and study the scripture we are studying moses, nah nah nah. The scripture is bigger than moses and the law, the scripture is the whole revelation of Christ and the redemption plan of God through Christ.

So, yes, being led of the spirit will include the scriptures, but if the holy spirit uses the scriptures to guide us, he isn't using the law of moses. Ok, how did joseph know that committing adultery with potipher's wife will grieve God, even before the law of moses came. So the spirit uses the scriptures but don't equate it with the law

which is law of moses again? are Moses teachings not pointing to Christ?

Bidam: Nope sorry the word reading doesn't suggest that. In READING Paul's letters do you

1. Know about (Paul's) Pharasaical understanding of Scripture.
2. Know of the Hebrew methods of interpretation and teaching that Paul used and which existed since before Paul's time.
3. Know of the deeper mystical aspects of Paul's Hebrew theology.
4. Know that the Hebrew concepts Paul tries to convey are not carried over well into the Greek language. (i.e., to convey the idea of "legalistic following of the commandments away from faith," the phrase erga nomos, meaning "works of the Law," had to be "created" as such concept did not exist in the Greek language at that time).
5.Come to Paul's letters with a bias instilled in you by your own theology. (i.e.,you are already taught the idea that Paul taught "we're not under the Law" before you even begin "studying" his teachings.)
A Yes or No reply will suffice.Thanks.

Bros, you know I know all of the things you mentioned up there. If I start my Greek\Hebrews now, una go dey go calling me names again. And besides, it's not every time we go writing on historic background; theology and all those stuff. There's no point for yes or no please. Paul cannot contradict himself except you don't understand one text in the place of the other. Paul never said we are not under the law, but definitely NOT MOSAIC LAW! He, Paul, tore it down completely! We're under the law of Christ, abeg go back to basic bible study joor!

Bidam: which is law of moses again? are Moses teachings not pointing to Christ?

If Moses's teaching was pointing to Christ and that's true, why then do you still hold that Moses teachings or law to heart when the one those teachings was pointing had already come? Does that make Holy Ghost sense to you?

Ihedinobi:

Ok. So Moses requires total obedience to the law for salvation and Christ requires only faith, right? What is the product of faith, pray tell?

How do you mean 'product of faith'?

Goshen360:

2. King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ. Galatians 6:2

^

Ihedinobi:
What does the law of Moses say regarding this?

What does the law of Moses says regarding bearing one another's burden?

New International Version (©2011)
fracture for fracture, eye for eye, tooth for tooth. The one who has inflicted the injury must suffer the same injury. Leviticus 24:20

New International Version (©2011)
Show no pity: life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot. Deuteronomy 19:21

Now, this is what Christ established under the law to end that dispensation and what is to be carried into the New Testament.

New Living Translation (©2007)
"You have heard the law that says the punishment must match the injury: 'An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth.' But I say, do not resist an evil person! If someone slaps you on the right cheek, offer the other cheek also. Matthew 5:38-39.

Now, I know what you gonna say, okay but I will help you out. I know you gonna say, Christ was showing the true meaning or intent of the law of Moses. How do you explain what is truly intended in "eye for an eye or the one who has inflicted the injury must suffer the same injury" compared to BUT I say, "If you're slapped on one cheek, turn the other ALSO" which was not included in the law of Moses? How do you explain that?

Bidam: which is law of moses again? are Moses teachings not pointing to Christ?

correct, the law of moses foreshadows Christ and what he is coming to accomplish. Now that the person who owns the shadow has entered the building, will you continue to interact with the shadow. You would most definitely look ridiculous to the man, when he is standing in your front and you're still talking to his shadow. That is how christians who still live by the dos and don'ts of the law look to Christ, the one whom the law forshadows.

So you're right, the law points to Christ. And if a signpost points to a house, what you do is move over to the house it points to and begin living there, not pitch a tent and camp with the signpost that was pointing to the house. The law was fulfilled when the person it was pointing to, Jesus, rose from the dead. Our life now is in Christ and our obligation is to being led of his spirit.

Goshen360:

How do you mean 'product of faith'?

Does faith stand alone? Does faith in Christ have no objective per the Scriptures?

musKeeto: Great thread.. If I didn't know any better, I would have thought I was one one of those grail message threads..

But pray, tell me, did Christ mean for CHRISTIANITY to be this 'difficult'?

christianity is not this difficult, but we christians make it so when we try to make the scriptures say what we want it to say instead of renewing our minds to fit into what it said. Its glaringly obvious that obeying the law and keeping the commandments have no say in defining righteousness anymore under the new covenant of grace and faith in Christ. After Isaac, the seed of faith, is born, we must compulsory cast out hagar and ishmael (law and works) according to the scriptures.

The argument on this thread are caused by people who dont wana cast out hagar and ishmael, law and works, or who wana cast out hagar but keep ishmael.

Goshen360:

^



What does the law of Moses says regarding bearing one another's burden?

New International Version (©2011)
fracture for fracture, eye for eye, tooth for tooth. The one who has inflicted the injury must suffer the same injury. Leviticus 24:20

New International Version (©2011)
Show no pity: life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot. Deuteronomy 19:21

Now, this is what Christ established under the law to end that dispensation and what is to be carried into the New Testament.

New Living Translation (©2007)
"You have heard the law that says the punishment must match the injury: 'An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth.' But I say, do not resist an evil person! If someone slaps you on the right cheek, offer the other cheek also. Matthew 5:38-39.

Now, I know what you gonna say, okay but I will help you out. I know you gonna say, Christ was showing the true meaning or intent of the law of Moses. How do you explain what is truly intended in "eye for an eye or the one who has inflicted the injury must suffer the same injury" compared to BUT I say, "If you're slapped on one cheek, turn the other ALSO" which was not included in the law of Moses? How do you explain that?

What does "eye for an eye...etc etc" have to do with bearing one another's burdens?

ayoku777:

correct, the law of moses foreshadows Christ and what he is coming to accomplish. Now that the person who owns the shadow has entered the building, will you continue to interact with the shadow. You would most definitely look ridiculous to man, when he is standing in your front and you're still talking to his shadow. That is how christians who still live by the dos and don'ts of the law look to Christ, the one whom the law forshadows.

So you're right, the law points to Christ. And if a signpost points to a house, what you do is move over to the house it points to and begin living there, not pitch a tent and camp with the signpost that was pointing to the house. The law was fulfilled when the person it was pointing to, Jesus, rose from the dead. Our life now is in Christ and our obligation is to being led of his spirit.

Bidam is protecting his oil well o, as far as the prophet is concern, the Law is the only 'line' that holds his farm, accept Grace and stave, so till thy kingdom come it gonna be azonto+etighi dance in circles, for him, to allow grace to come in means tithe escaping tro the window.

Goshen360:
3. New Living Translation (©2007)
When I am with the Gentiles who do not follow the Jewish law, I too live apart from that law so I can bring them to Christ. But I do not ignore the law of God; I obey the law of Christ. 1 Corinthians 9:21

^

Ihedinobi:
I see three laws here: the Jewish law, the law of God and the law of Christ. Which of the first two is the law of Moses and how come there's a third when you said there are only two?

I told you earlier the two laws - of Moses and of Christ were used by another name interchangeably. The Jewish law in that context is still the law of Moses. It was called the Jewish law because it was given to the Jews, not to Christians or Gentiles. If I have $100 and I give it to, does it still belong to me after giving it to you? Off course, it shall be called yours. Have you found such phrase in scriptures called "Christianish law"? Off course not, because Christians are under Christ's law - LOVE! That's the bedrock of our Christianity.

The law of God is the law by which God operates a given time and dispensation. That's why I said and teach, we are not under law doesn't mean we are lawless. NO! It means we are still subject to the law of God in operation at a given time. In this time, age and dispensation; the law of God is the law of Christ and that's what Christians are under or subject to, not of Moses. At some times in scriptures when the law of Moses was in effect, scripture calls the law of Moses the law of God, that's what they had at that time.

Ihedinobi:

Does faith stand alone? Does faith in Christ have no objective per the Scriptures?

So you derive faith from obeying the law of Moses because it is written in scriptures? Then your faith is truly in shadows because Christ is the substance of the law. Your faith then must be in Christ, not the shadows.

Goshen360:

If Moses's teaching was pointing to Christ and that's true, why then do you still hold that Moses teachings or law to heart when the one those teachings was pointing had already come? Does that make Holy Ghost sense to you?

2 Timothy 3:17 - And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

Ihedinobi:

What does "eye for an eye...etc etc" have to do with bearing one another's burdens?

i tire is an understatement.

Ihedinobi:

What does "eye for an eye...etc etc" have to do with bearing one another's burdens?

See as I dey laugh you in tongues. Honestly I don't expect this kind of question from you. Oh, so you still think 'burden' is just like what we call somebody's wahala this days right? That word burden also mean trouble. So, if some give you trouble, bear it. How can you do that except for LOVE....that is by obeying the law of Christ? It is the same word the Apostles already said the Mosaic laws was and never wanted to add more or burden the Gentile Christians with it.

Expanded Bible (EXB)
28 It has pleased the Holy Spirit that you should not have a heavy ·load [burden] to carry, and we agree. You need to do only these things: 29 Stay away from any food that has been ·offered [sacrificed] to idols, eating any animals that have been strangled, and blood, and any kind of sexual sin [see v. 20]. If you stay away from these things, you will do well. ·Good-bye [Best wishes; May you fare well]. 30 So they ·left Jerusalem [were sent off/dismissed] and went to Antioch where they gathered the ·church [congregation; assembly] and ·gave them [delivered] the letter. Acts 15