Candour:

see what you wrote



and i asked if you meant the same Torah summarized in Deut chapter 12 through 27? This will immediately throw up a question which is how many of them do you and i keep today? hint:we have 613 of them

Jesus sermon in matt 5:17-48 does not encapsulate the Torah as the Torah included the laws and the ordinances.all he dealt with there are summarized thus

Matt 22:37-40
''Jesus said unto him,thou shalt love the Lord they God with all thy heart,and with all thy soul,and with all thy mind.This is the first and great commandment.Ant the second is like unto it,Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.on these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets''

Jesus gave a new commandment just before he left for the cross and that is what is refered to as the law of Christ.it has nothing to do with the Torah.It emphasizes the crux of matt 5:17-48 and matt 22:37-40

John 13:34
''A new commandment i give unto you,That ye love one another:as i have loved you,that ye also love one another''

and why quote only deut 12? why not quote the entire OT(Torah) to buttress your arguments? i still maintain my stand on act 15:21.

Candour: and i asked if you meant the same Torah summarized in Deut chapter 12 through 27? This will immediately throw up a question which is how many of them do you and i keep today? hint:we have 613 of them

stick to the OP we are actually discussing the sabbath and how Jesus explained it.

Jesus sermon in matt 5:17-48 does not encapsulate the Torah as the Torah included the laws and the ordinances.all he dealt with there are summarized

and what the you understand by the moral laws and other laws and ordinances that govern the nation of isreal during moses time.pls explain how that reconciled with what Jesus said in matt 5:17-48. don't tell me he completely abolish them in that verse.
Matt 22:37-40
'

'Jesus said unto him,thou shalt love the Lord they God with all thy heart,and with all thy soul,and with all thy mind.This is the first and great commandment.Ant the second is like unto it,Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.on these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets''

Is Jesus summarising the law here or abolishing it?

Jesus gave a new commandment just before he left for the cross and that is what is refered to as the law of Christ.it has nothing to do with the Torah.It emphasizes the crux of matt 5:17-48 and matt 22:37-40

this is a big lie and you know it.

John 13:34
''A new commandment i give unto you,That ye love one another:as i have loved you,that ye also love one another'

'Is love not a summary and fulfillment of the law and the prophets?




[/quote]

Bidam:
You are going far away my bro..what was Jesus quoting to the devil in luke 4:4 is it OT or NT? are you advocating that any one that has the Holy Spirit should no longer read the bible?

who is saying you should not read the bible?

Bidam:
and what point is rom 1 making?

Why not read the chapter? abi you dey wait for a pastor to do the interpretation? you can use google na. you know you are very skilled when it comes to scanning the internet for data

Bidam: and why quote only deut 12? why not quote the entire OT(Torah) to buttress your arguments? i still maintain my stand on act 15:21.

Deut chapter 12 to Chapter 27 is what i said bro.Not just Chapter 12

Acts 15:21 does not say what you are trying to make it say

Acts 15:21
'For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him,being read in the synagogue every sabbath day'

How does this ask you a Gentile Christian to observe the Torah?

Bidam: stick to the OP we are actually discussing the sabbath and how Jesus explained it.

we're NOT discussing Sabbath.We're discussing the Torah and how it relates to Christians except you're telling me Sabbath is the totality of the Torah

and what the you understand by the moral laws and other laws and ordinances that govern the nation of isreal during moses time.pls explain how that reconciled with what Jesus said in matt 5:17-48. don't tell me he completely abolish them in that verse.

Ok let me agree with you that Jesus did not abolish the Torah and we are meant to be observing it today.Can you tell me if you keep all the laws of the Torah as enunciated from Deut chapter 12 to Deut chapter 27?

Matt 22:37-40
'Is Jesus summarising the law here or abolishing it?
this is a big lie and you know it.
'Is love not a summary and fulfillment of the law and the prophets?

Jesus is telling you here that you don't need to read the torah to know what God wants.If love guides all your actions,you would not hurt your neighbour with fornication,adultery,stealing,covetousness,lying,bearing false witness etc etc.

Once you love your neighbour, you have kept the law

Goshen360:

They believe or are saying only faith or believing in Christ and his finished works is just too simply. They argue that, obeying the law of Moses and its commandments are also required in addition to faith in Christ. That's all I see except they wanna answer for themselves.

This is your misconception

We are saying that if you live life exactly as yashua lives then you will be obeying the law daily in your lives

The Unrepentant lawless man on the other hand says that live your life as you see fit, there is no need to live exactly as yashua lives, just be good.

Goshen you are truly Lawless.

MostHigh:

This is your misconception

We are saying that if you live life exactly as yashua lives then you will be obeying the law daily in your lives

The Unrepentant lawless man on the other hand says that live your life as you see fit, there is no need to live exactly as yashua lives, just be good.

Goshen you are truly Lawless.

@ mosthigh, you're wrong

If ye be are led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law, that's what Galatians said, so being led of the spirit is not obeying the law, even if it seems you do good under both.

And why do lovers of the law get selective on the law they emphasize? They only major on the moral laws of dos and donts and leave the ceremonial laws of sacrifices, feasts and offerings. You claim the law is still revelant but you obey only the moral ones and leave the ceremonial ones, that's hypocrisy. Jesus fulfilled all the law, so its either the whole law is still relevant or the whole law has been done away with. So if you say breaking the ten commandments is sin, you must also agree that being clean shaven is sin and even having tribal marks is sin, coz the same law forbids polling the edges of your beard and having any form of incision on your skin

The whole law has been done away with, when Christ through his death and resurrection fulfilled them. So if you still agree the law is relevant, you don't get to be selective on which part is relevant, its either all or none. So if Christ fulfilled all the law, then all is done away with in Him, moral and ceremonial. So now we are righteous through faith in him and grow unto perfection through fellowship with the Spirit, and now when we study the scriptures we no longer do it as a rule book, the way it was done before Christ came, but now as a book of prophecy that are fulfilled in Christ.

ayoku777:

@ mosthigh, you're wrong

If ye be are led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law, that's what Galatians said, so being led of the spirit is not obeying the law, even if it seems you do good under both.

And why do lovers of the law get selective on the law they emphasize? They only major on the moral laws of dos and donts and leave the ceremonial laws of sacrifices, feasts and offerings. You claim the law is still revelant but you obey only the moral ones and leave the ceremonial ones, that's hypocrisy. Jesus fulfilled all the law, so its either the whole law is still relevant or the whole law has been done away with. So if you say breaking the ten commandments is sin, you must also agree that being clean shaven is sin and even having tribal marks is sin, coz the same law forbids polling the edges of your beard and having any form of incision on your skin

The whole law has been done away with, when Christ through his death and resurrection fulfilled them.

STOP QUOTING THE EDIFYING LETERS WRITTEN BETWEEN THE ELECT

AND QUOTE THE WORDS OF THE MASTER ON THIS ISSUE

HE IS THE DEFINITIVE AUTHORITY.

MostHigh:

STOP QUOTING THE EDIFYING LETERS WRITTEN BETWEEN THE ELECT

AND QUOTE THE WORDS OF THE MASTER ON THIS ISSUE

HE IS THE DEFINITIVE AUTHORITY.

So the letters of the apostles are not scriptures in your own opinion?

And which words of the master showed that he fulfilled only the ceremonial laws but we still need to keep the moral ones?

Next time don't cleverly avoid the question coz the answer will checkmate your view. The WHOLE LAW is done away with in Christ

ayoku777:

@ mosthigh, you're wrong

If ye be are led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law, that's what Galatians said, so being led of the spirit is not obeying the law, even if it seems you do good under both.

And why do lovers of the law get selective on the law they emphasize? They only major on the moral laws of dos and donts and leave the ceremonial laws of sacrifices, feasts and offerings. You claim the law is still revelant but you obey only the moral ones and leave the ceremonial ones, that's hypocrisy. Jesus fulfilled all the law, so its either the whole law is still relevant or the whole law has been done away with. So if you say breaking the ten commandments is sin, you must also agree that being clean shaven is sin and even having tribal marks is sin, coz the same law forbids polling the edges of your beard and having any form of incision on your skin

The whole law has been done away with, when Christ through his death and resurrection fulfilled them. So if you still agree the law is relevant, you don't get to be selective on which part is relevant, its either all or none. So if Christ fulfilled all the law, then all is done away with in Him, moral and ceremonial. So now we are righteous through faith in him and grow unto perfection through fellowship with the Spirit, and now when we study the scriptures we no longer do it as a rule book, the way it was done before Christ came, but now as a book of prophecy that are fulfilled in Christ.

ayoku777 You are a truly presumptious fellow.

@ayoku777 And why do lovers of the law get selective on the law they emphasize? They only major on the moral laws of dos and donts and leave the ceremonial laws of sacrifices, feasts and offerings. You claim the law is still revelant but you obey only the moral ones and leave the ceremonial ones,

1. If you were a true follower of yashua you would know that the body is the temple and as such all ceremony is transfered to the body (bodily worship) read your book of hebrews

Seeing that there is a new priesthood it is only logical that there be a change of the ordinances (and not an abolition as the lawless heathens claim)

2. it is only western christianity that has completely done away with the feasts that the most high God states are forever.

In eastern christiinity armenian, egyptian,indian,ethiopian e.t.c there are still elements of torah living especially regarding feast days (passover, trumpets and tabernacles)

ayoku777:

So the letters of the apostles are not scriptures in your own opinion?

And which words of the master showed that he fulfilled only the ceremonial laws but we still need to keep the moral ones?

Next time don't cleverly avoid the question coz the answer will checkmate your view. The WHOLE LAW is done away with in Christ

Reprobate


If the whole law is done away with then what about sin?

Is sin done away with as well?

Sin is the transgression of the LAW.

Lawless man.

@ayoku777 The whole law has been done away with, when Christ through his death and resurrection fulfilled them. So if you still agree the law is relevant, you don't get to be selective on which part is relevant, its either all or none. So if Christ fulfilled all the law, then all is done away with in Him, moral and ceremonial. So now we are righteous through faith in him and grow unto perfection through fellowship with the Spirit, and now when we study the scriptures we no longer do it as a rule book, the way it was done before Christ came, but now as a book of prophecy that are fulfilled in Christ.

@Mosthigh It is you that has been done away with and you are already beneath the feet of the ellect as prophesised by the master.

Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach [them], the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

You are apparently ok with being called the least in the coming kingdom.

Lawless Antichrist.
Keep on teaching LAWLESSNESS

@ MostHigh,

Where in scriptures does the bible called or says some laws of Moses are classified or categorized into moral, some ceremonial etc? Do you mind showing us what chapter and verses please.

Goshen360: @ MostHigh,

Where in scriptures does the bible called or says some laws of Moses are classified into moral, some ceremonial etc? Do you mind showing us what chapter and verses please.

I have made no such claim and besides there is no one place where this is expressly stated in the torah.

And even if there was and it was revealed to you, you would still rage against the Most High God and his words.

Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach [them], the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Stop preaching lawlessness |Goshen.

MostHigh:

ayoku777 You are a truly presumptious fellow.

@ayoku777 And why do lovers of the law get selective on the law they emphasize? They only major on the moral laws of dos and donts and leave the ceremonial laws of sacrifices, feasts and offerings. You claim the law is still revelant but you obey only the moral ones and leave the ceremonial ones,

1. If you were a true follower of yashua you would know that the body is the temple and as such all ceremony is transfered to the body (bodily worship) read your book of hebrews

Seeing that there is a new priesthood it is only logical that there be a change of the ordinances (and not an abolition as the lawless heathens claim)

2. it is only western christianity that has completely done away with the feasts that the most high God states are forever.

In eastern christiinity armenian, egyptian,indian,ethiopian e.t.c there are still elements of torah living especially regarding feast days (passover, trumpets and tabernacles)

@ MostHigh

So now you're quoting the epistles again, good. So what of the part that says '...the law is not made for a righteous man'. Now who is a righteous man? Someone who has put his faith in Christ's death and resurrection, Rom 10v10, 'for with the heart man believeth unto righteousness'. So if the law is not made for a righteous man, how is the trangression of the law relevant to such a man who has been made righteous through faith in Christ.

So you say the ceremonial laws are still relevant, so I guess you also don't shave your beards and you also condemn to hell everyone with an incision, whether tattoo or tribal mark

Have you also read the apostolic council where the holy spirit said not to burden the believer with the moral laws? Acts 15v28 'for it seemed good to THE HOLY SPIRIT, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things'. And among those 'necessary things', murder, coveting your neighbours wife and belongings, bearing false witness, using the Lord's name in vain etc, were no where to be found.

So if you claim not keeping the law makes us rebrobates, then your blasphemy is that the holy spirit makes us rebrobates, coz the instruction to not burden the believers with these things came from him

@ayoku777 If ye be are led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law, that's what Galatians said, so being led of the spirit is not obeying the law, even if it seems you do good under both.

@mosthigh

ayoku777 ye are truly blinedeD by your lust for the world

contrary to what you have written above being led by the spirit does not mean being LAWLESS which is the same thing as not obeying the law.

Rather it is being the fullfilment of the law, no longer obliged but by free will

GOSHEN AND HIS DESCIPLES IF YOU WERE TRULY BORN OF OR AFTER THE SPIRIT OF YASHUA THEN YOU WOULD NOT FEEL OPPRESSED WHEN SOMEONE SASYS THOU SHALT NOT STEAL

ANON YOUR JOY WOULD KNOW NO BOUNDS WHEREVER THIS TRUTH WAS PROFESSED

BUT BECAUSE YOU ARE OF THE DEVIL YOUR FATHER YOU DONT EVEN WANT TO HEAR US TELL THE CHILDREN THOU SHAT CIRCIMCISES YOUR CHILDREN IN THIER FORESKINS

TO YOU THIS IS UNECESSARY WE SHOULD ALL JUST PRACTICE THIS NEW LOVE THAT GOSHEN IS PEDDLING

FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEATH.

ayoku777:

@ MostHigh

So now you're quoting the epistles again, good. So what of the part that says '...the law is not made for a righteous man'. Now who is a righteous man? Someone who has put his faith in Christ's death and resurrection, Rom 10v10, 'for with the heart man believeth unto righteousness'. So if the law is not made for a righteous man, how is the trangression of the law relevant to such a man who has been made righteous through faith in Christ.

So you say the ceremonial laws are still relevant, so I guess you also don't shave your beards and you also condemn to hell everyone with an incision, whether tattoo or tribal mark

Have you also read the apostolic council where the holy spirit said not to burden the believer with the moral laws? Acts 15v28 'for it seemed good to THE HOLY SPIRIT, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things'. And among those 'necessary things', murder, coveting your neighbours wife and belongings, bearing false witness, using the Lord's name in vain etc, were no where to be found.

So if you claim not keeping the law makes us rebrobates, then your blasphemy is that the holy spirit makes us rebrobates, coz the instruction to not burden the believers with these things came from him

OF COURSE THE HOLY SPIRIT HAS MADE YOU REPROBATE

HAVE YE NOT READ ABOUT THE WHEAT AND THE TARES

OR OF THE STUMBLING BLOCK

The law IS NOT A BURDEN FOR ME OR MY MASTER WE OBEY IT WILLINGLY AND FEVERENTLY (THE ZEAL IS CONSUMING)

And guy the LAW is the LAW if they charged them not observe unholy things through the LAW how then do you fight that same LAW?

Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach [them], the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

THERE IS NO EXCUSE FOR LAWLESSNESS!

MostHigh:

OF COURSE THE HOLY SPIRIT HAS MADE YOU REPROBATE

HAVE YE NOT READ ABOUT THE WHEAT AND THE TARES

OR OF THE STUMBLING BLOCK

The law IS NOT A BURDEN FOR ME OR MY MASTER WE OBEY IT WILLINGLY AND FEVERENTLY (THE ZEAL IS CONSUMING)

And guy the LAW is the LAW if they charged them not observe unholy things through the LAW how then do you fight that same LAW?

Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach [them], the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

THERE IS NO EXCUSE FOR LAWLESSNESS!

You don't answer any question I post to you, all you do is avoid them and reply with bitterness. Read that Acts 15 well, I didn't make it up. The Holy Spirit gave the command not to BURDEN the believers with the moral laws.

ayoku777:

You don't answer any question I post to you, all you do is avoid them and reply with bitterness. Read that Acts 15 well, I didn't make it up. The Holy Spirit gave the command not to BURDEN the believers with the moral laws.

READ AGAIN I HAVE ANSWERD ALL YOUR QUESTIONS

Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach [them], the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

MostHigh:

READ AGAIN I HAVE ANSWERD ALL YOUR QUESTIONS

Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach [them], the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Ok since this is the scripture you've been quoting now for the past 5 threads. What commandments was Jesus talking about?

ayoku777:

Ok since this is the scripture you've been quoting now for the past 5 threads. What commandments was Jesus talking about?

@ayoku

That MostHigh guy is not ready to learn. He thinks the bible is 1 stagnant revelation. he picks a quote and dwell on that quote. I advice you direct your energy to those who will argue objectively.

ayoku777:

Ok since this is the scripture you've been quoting now for the past 5 threads. What commandments was Jesus talking about?

Just like the greeks you guys love arguing for arguments sake.

He was talking about the Commandments of the most high God?

shdemidemi:

@ayoku

That MostHigh guy is not ready to learn. He thinks the bible is 1 stagnant revelation. he picks a quote and dwell on that quote. I advice you direct your energy to those who will argue objectively.

Is that all you have to say in the face of the masters words?

Yashua is the definitive authority regarding the place of the LAW.

You and your kind are over 2 billion in number I know thats why you have a false sense of security

but judgement is coming

are you prepared?

MostHigh:

Just like the greeks you guys love arguing for arguments sake.

He was talking about the Commandments of the most high God?

Which one is commandment of most high God and which is not? You're trying to apply ambiquity in your replies coz you don't wana shoot yourself in the foot.

You claim I'm arguing for arguing sake, yet I'm the one coming up with scripture upon scripture to support my views and claims, while you've just been on one verse that you can't even explain with specifics all day.

shdemidemi:

@ayoku

That MostHigh guy is not ready to learn. He thinks the bible is 1 stagnant revelation. he picks a quote and dwell on that quote. I advice you direct your energy to those who will argue objectively.

Thanks @ shdemidemi

I couldn't agree with you more

@shdemidemi Like I told you before, gentile believers don't see Christ as our king albeit he is a king in heaven.

@mosthigh

ayoku777 the above is shdemidemi's stance on Yashua ibn joseph and his coming kingdom.

Strange as it may seem your man thinks of himself as:

1. A gentile

2. A subject to the king in spirit only and not in flesh.

Just out of curiosity are you of the same opinion or is this just a case of the blind leading the blind?

MostHigh: @shdemidemi Like I told you before, gentile believers don't see Christ as our king albeit he is a king in heaven.

@mosthigh

ayoku777 the above is you shdemidemi's stance on Yashua ibn joseph and his coming kingdom.

Just out of curiosity are you of the same opinion or is this just a case of the blind leading the blind?

How can you ever understand what that statement means, when you are stacked on one verse of the bible even when I have explained it to you.

I made that above statement and it is right if only you would study. The Jews and most especially the disciples were concerned about their king' s coming even after the supposed king was not accepted. He was killed and his blood was for the propitiation of sin for mankind which involves the Gentiles but with the caveat of belief. At this present time we are not preaching kingdom to Christians because we are a mythical body of Christ, He is the head and we are the church is the body.

shdemidemi:

How can you ever understand what that statement means, when you are stacked on one verse of the bible even when I have explained it to you.

I made that above statement and it is right if only you would study. The Jews and most especially the disciples were concerned about their king' s coming even after the supposed king was not accepted. He was killed and his blood was for the propitiation of sin for mankind which involves the Gentiles but with the caveat of belief. At this present time we are not preaching kingdom to Christians because we are a mythical body of Christ, He is the head and we are the church is the body.

you are truly rebeliouse and lawless.

Is that single verse not conclusive enough for you regarding your debate?

Is it not piercing enough seeing that it is the word of the son of God.?

You choose to hind behind confused words

MostHigh:

you are truly rebeliouse and lawless.

Is that single verse not conclusive enough for you regarding your debate?

Is it not piercing enough seeing that it is the word of the son of God.?

You choose to hind behind confused words

18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfil[color=#990000][/color]led.

Can't you see what Christ said..'till all as been fulfilled' ,Was all not fulfilled on the cross. Why do you think Christ had to die?

I knew you were gonna run away or come up with a vague or irrational reply.. Does Mathew 5:18 answer the 5:19 you have been clamouring about?

shdemidemi: I knew you were gonna run away or come up with a vague or irrational reply.. Does Mathew 5:18 answer the 5:19 you have been clamouring about?

Wise man if all has been fulfilled on the cross as you say then why is there still sin in the world?

And what about your own cross?

Are you rushing towards it.

Or running away from it?

Do you understand what the word fulfilled means?