Bidam: looking for an easy route to escape..was timothy NOT a gentile like you?

Bidam: This is a big lie..every bible scholar knows Paul was referring to the OT GO DO THE RESEARCH.

If Timothy was a gentile like you rightly pointed out, what would be his business with the Old Testament. I believe you know the Old Testament was strictly for the Jews.

Candour:

@the bolded.You mean we Gentiles on being born again should follow the Torah Hope you know the Torah contains 613 laws in all.How many of them do you and i keep today? for a summary of the Torah see Deut chapters 12 through 27.

Acts 15:21 you referenced talks about Moses(the law) being read in the synagogues.Gentiles are strangers and are excluded from the assembly of the Jews.Its a strictly Jewish affair.

The sentence of the Jerusalem Council is outlined by James in Acts 15:19-20 and Acts 15:28-29 and it stipulates only 4 donts.

In the New Testament there is a term that is used that describe Torah observant non-Jews as "God-fearers". These are gentiles who have not (yet) fully converted to Judaism; but have attached themselves to the Israel as the people of Adonai. Cornelius, the Centurion in Acts 10 fits this definition.

There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band, A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God always.
(Act 10:1-2 KJV)

Understanding this term "God-fearer" to be a common idiom for a gentile who has attached himself to the Jewish faith, we find them present in the synagogue at Antioch in Acts 13:16 where Paul addresses the gentiles specifically present in the audience.

The same thing occurred in Iconium, where Paul and Barnabas went into the Jewish synagogue and spoke in such a way that a great number of both Jews and Greeks became believers (Acts 14:1).

That very night the believers sent Paul and Silas off to Beroea; and when they arrived, they went to the Jewish synagogue. These Jews were more receptive than those in Thessalonica, for they welcomed the message very eagerly and examined the scriptures every day to see whether these things were so. Many of them therefore believed, including not a few Greek women and men of high standing (Acts 17:10-12).

While Paul was waiting for them in Athens, he was deeply distressed to see that the city was full of idols. So he argued in the synagogue with the Jews and the devout persons, and also in the marketplace every day with those who happened to be there (Acts 17:16-17).

Every sabbath [Paul] would argue in the synagogue and would try to convince Jews and Greeks. (Acts 18:4).

Now, if someone is bent on their position, these verses may be dissected to argue that the discussions with Jews and gentiles were separate; but this does not fit historical evidence.

Falvius Josephus records Greeks being invited to participate in Jewish worship and festivals during the Antiochan period (before the Judaims was illegal and the Maccabean revolt).

shdemidemi:



If Timothy was a gentile like you rightly pointed out, what would be his business with the Old Testament. I believe you know the Old Testament was strictly for the Jews.

Abeg go siddon..you are just arguing for arguing sake. You don't have scriptural evidences to buttress your points.

Goshen360:



Why read the scriptures and say it must mean this or that? It can mean beyond what we think it means. Look at it this way, maybe you will understand.....Greek wan start be that o

The word 'burden' is from the Greek word, baros and it means: heaviness, weight, burden, trouble from here, http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G922&t=KJV

As usual, take those meanings and key back into the context. You have all what the writer intents, not just limited to what you think the writer intended.

Therefore, "Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ" = "Bear ye one another's heaviness, weight, burden, trouble, and so fulfil the law of Christ".

If somebody have trouble or brings trouble to you, positive or negative, you must bear it as a Christian. At least you know trouble can be positive or negative.

I think you are the one always talking about context. What does verse 1 of Galatians 6, that is, the verse immediately before the one in question, say?

Zikkyy:

Have done the recon already and knows that learning does not equate to adoption.

I probably missed it. Could you refer me to it again?

Bidam: In the New Testament there is a term that is used that describe Torah observant non-Jews as "God-fearers". These are gentiles who have not (yet) fully converted to Judaism; but have attached themselves to the Israel as the people of Adonai. Cornelius, the Centurion in Acts 10 fits this definition.

There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band, A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God always.
(Act 10:1-2 KJV)

Understanding this term "God-fearer" to be a common idiom for a gentile who has attached himself to the Jewish faith, we find them present in the synagogue at Antioch in Acts 13:16 where Paul addresses the gentiles specifically present in the audience.

The same thing occurred in Iconium, where Paul and Barnabas went into the Jewish synagogue and spoke in such a way that a great number of both Jews and Greeks became believers (Acts 14:1).

That very night the believers sent Paul and Silas off to Beroea; and when they arrived, they went to the Jewish synagogue. These Jews were more receptive than those in Thessalonica, for they welcomed the message very eagerly and examined the scriptures every day to see whether these things were so. Many of them therefore believed, including not a few Greek women and men of high standing (Acts 17:10-12).

While Paul was waiting for them in Athens, he was deeply distressed to see that the city was full of idols. So he argued in the synagogue with the Jews and the devout persons, and also in the marketplace every day with those who happened to be there (Acts 17:16-17).

Every sabbath [Paul] would argue in the synagogue and would try to convince Jews and Greeks. (Acts 18:4).

Now, if someone is bent on their position, these verses may be dissected to argue that the discussions with Jews and gentiles were separate; but this does not fit historical evidence.

Falvius Josephus records Greeks being invited to participate in Jewish worship and festivals during the Antiochan period (before the Judaims was illegal and the Maccabean revolt).

You lie..being God fearing or a proselyte does not make the gentile world saved. God dealth with the Jews as a nation and not as individuals and the same apply to the Gentiles. God has also placed in every man a conscience from knowing good from bad. Conelius was just a man that knew there is God through the divine works visible and not through Torah. Being God fearing would not save him from condemnation before the resurrection of Christ?

Goshen360:

My brother, I have told you many times. The Jewish laws or the law of Moses is not the same as the law of Christ. Does the law of Christ asked you to stone people to death? Or does it tell you to stone rebellious children to death? I hope you show us that law if it exist in the law of Christ because I don't understand the relationship you are seeking for? What relationship exist between law of Moses and Grace?

When architects conceptualize a building, they make a model of it in order to communicate the idea they have in their mind. The model is not the building itself. It's only a "picture" of what they have in mind. But they use it to "test" the consistency of their idea with the realities on ground.

Regard Moses's law as the model and Jesus as the actual building. Now, would the two look alike? Would they be the same principle (note the word)?

Yes, God changes His mode of operation. He is the same God of the OT and of the NT. How come the same God said, I want a New Covenant and not just leave it at the Old? Until you understand that the shadow is gone because the substance has come, you will confusing both for the other. God Himself does not change but his ways changes - from Old Covenant to New; From law to Grace; from curse to blessing etc.

My word!

shdemidemi:

You lie..being God fearing or a proselyte does not make the gentile world saved. God dealth with the Jews as a nation and not as individuals and the same apply to the Gentiles. God has also placed in every man a conscience from knowing good from bad. Conelius was just a man that knew there is God through the divine works visible and not through Torah. Being God fearing would not save him from condemnation before the resurrection of Christ?

You still don't get my arguments with candour go back and re-read the post and understand where we are coming from. Ayam still waiting for his reply.

Zikkyy:

Reading the mosaic law as a teaching guide is not bad e.g. to help in your understanding of the gospel. The problem really is when you now decide to live by the mosaic law. Jesus or Paul did not teach that you should subject ya self to the requirements of the mosaic law.

Which of us advocates subjecting Christians to the dictates of the law of rituals (I know that that is what you actually mean)?

How exactly does Moses help anyone comprehend the Gospel better?

Bidam: Abeg go siddon..you are just arguing for arguing sake. You don't have scriptural evidences to buttress your points.

Olodo..when I start giving you scriptures now, you will run to the next OP

shdemidemi:

This letter was a personal message to Timothy, and not to the church.understand it as such pls.

Are you saying that Paul's letters to individuals or, in fact, any letter to an individual in the Scriptures is irrelevant to the whole Church?

shdemidemi: 20 Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound. But where sin abounde[/b]d, [b]grace abounded much more, 21 so that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

That is the simplicity of the gospel. Law came to reveal sin - the wages of this sin is death but this gospel is the power of salvation to anyone who believe. Therefore, even when you tell lies or commit any sin under the law, the power of grace is multiplied.

The issue of faith and righteousness can be understood through the life of Abraham. Abraham believed and his belief was accounted to him as righteousness but we should remember Abraham laughed when God told him He would have a child through Sarah. God asked if they were laughing, they lied by saying ... No. That means they doubted and lied, would these " sin" stop them from getting the promise?

The law is useless to a Christian cos He is not judged by it.

The law is useless to a Christian merely because he is not judged by it? Alright then, by what is the Christian judged?

shdemidemi: 20 Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound. But where sin abounde[/b]d, [b]grace abounded much more, 21 so that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

That is the simplicity of the gospel. Law came to reveal sin - the wages of this sin is death but this gospel is the power of salvation to anyone who believe. Therefore, even when you tell lies or commit any sin under the law, the power of grace is multiplied.

The issue of faith and righteousness can be understood through the life of Abraham. Abraham believed and his belief was accounted to him as righteousness but we should remember Abraham laughed when God told him He would have a child through Sarah. God asked if they were laughing, they lied by saying ... No. That means they doubted and lied, would these " sin" stop them from getting the promise?

The law is useless to a Christian cos He is not judged by it.

The law is useless to a Christian merely because he is not judged by it? Alright then, by what is the Christian judged?

shdemidemi:

Olodo..when I start giving you scriptures now, you will run to the next OP

Ok give me scriptures minus abuses.

Bidam: In the New Testament there is a term that is used that describe Torah observant non-Jews as "God-fearers". These are gentiles who have not (yet) fully converted to Judaism; but have attached themselves to the Israel as the people of Adonai. Cornelius, the Centurion in Acts 10 fits this definition.

There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band, A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God always.
(Act 10:1-2 KJV)

Understanding this term "God-fearer" to be a common idiom for a gentile who has attached himself to the Jewish faith, we find them present in the synagogue at Antioch in Acts 13:16 where Paul addresses the gentiles specifically present in the audience.

The same thing occurred in Iconium, where Paul and Barnabas went into the Jewish synagogue and spoke in such a way that a great number of both Jews and Greeks became believers (Acts 14:1).

That very night the believers sent Paul and Silas off to Beroea; and when they arrived, they went to the Jewish synagogue. These Jews were more receptive than those in Thessalonica, for they welcomed the message very eagerly and examined the scriptures every day to see whether these things were so. Many of them therefore believed, including not a few Greek women and men of high standing (Acts 17:10-12).

While Paul was waiting for them in Athens, he was deeply distressed to see that the city was full of idols. So he argued in the synagogue with the Jews and the devout persons, and also in the marketplace every day with those who happened to be there (Acts 17:16-17).

Every sabbath [Paul] would argue in the synagogue and would try to convince Jews and Greeks. (Acts 18:4).

Now, if someone is bent on their position, these verses may be dissected to argue that the discussions with Jews and gentiles were separate; but this does not fit historical evidence.

Falvius Josephus records Greeks being invited to participate in Jewish worship and festivals during the Antiochan period (before the Judaims was illegal and the Maccabean revolt).

Ok my brother.Let me agree with you that indeed Gentiles were part of the synagogue congregation though i believe they would have to be proselytes of Judaism for that to be possible.you yourself called them devout and God-fearing.

the important questions which you didn't answer is reproduced below

You mean we Gentiles on being born again should follow the Torah?? Hope you know the Torah contains 613 laws in all.How many of them do you and i keep today? for a summary of the Torah see Deut chapters 12 through 27.

Note the below

The sentence of the Jerusalem Council is outlined by James in Acts 15:19-20 and Acts 15:28-29 and it stipulates only 4 donts.

As an aside,i'm happy you're also quoting non biblical sources to buttress your historical argument.My brother has reconciled with Wikipedia and Google

Bidam: Ok give me scriptures minus abuses.

No p..I will ask you a few questions, if you can answer convincingly, I would take this dispel of law of Moses plus gospel of grace you propagate. Lets start with this-

20 Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace abounded much more, 21 so that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.


What do you understand by these verses?

shdemidemi:

You lie... God has also placed in every man a conscience from knowing good from bad. Conelius was just a man that knew there is God through the divine works visible and not through Torah.

You still don't get it do you? It is ONLY the Jewish nation that practiced Monotheism. The question is how did cornelius learned to believe in ONLY ONE GOD even before his meeting with peter?

Bidam: You still don't get it do you? It is ONLY the Jewish nation that practiced Monotheism. The question is how did cornelius learned to believe in ONLY ONE GOD even before his meeting with peter?

Romans 1 explains that explicitly

For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,

Candour:

Ok my brother.Let me agree with you that indeed Gentiles were part of the synagogue congregation though i believe they would have to be proselytes of Judaism for that to be possible.you yourself called them devout and God-fearing.

the important questions which you didn't answer is reproduced below

You mean we Gentiles on being born again should follow the Torah?? Hope you know the Torah contains 613 laws in all.How many of them do you and i keep today? for a summary of the Torah see Deut chapters 12 through 27.

Note the below

The sentence of the Jerusalem Council is outlined by James in Acts 15:19-20 and Acts 15:28-29 and it stipulates only 4 donts.

As an aside,i'm happy you're also quoting non biblical sources to buttress your historical argument.My brother has reconciled with Wikipedia and Google

This is just going round in circles. we have dealt about this things in almost all of goshen threads and i told him my stand as expanded by Jesus Christ the great Rabbi which is found in Mathew 5 :17-48 which ofcos by default is an OT scripture.

Ihedinobi:
I probably missed it. Could you refer me to it again?

i did not interpret your post to say zikkyy doing a recon for ihedinobi's enjoyment. have done a personal recon and don't see any relationship between my post and the scripture you referring to You first need to understand my post before asking for a recon. The 1 Timothy verse you referring to served the purpose when Paul made reference to it in 1 Corinthians 9.

my post was saying that one that is spirit led do not need to make reference to the written law (mosaic) to know he should not kill (for example). unless you are telling me the spirit himself is not aware of this fact and also need to consult the written law for such guidance. If Jesus did not need to law to guide his personal conduct why do i need the law now that i have Christ in me?

Bidam: This is just going round in circles. we have dealt about this things in almost all of goshen threads and i told him my stand as expanded by Jesus Christ the great Rabbi which is found in Mathew 5 :17-48 which ofcos by default is an OT scripture.

Paul did not need any recommendation from anyone, neither was he taught by any man, His gospel is different from any other gospel preached by anyone.

Bidam, answer my questions na

shdemidemi:
No p..I will ask you a few questions, if you can answer convincingly, I would take this dispel of law of Moses plus gospel of grace you propagate. Lets start with this-

20 Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace abounded much more, 21 so that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.


What do you understand by these verses?

That was why i told you about MAN'S FAILINGS AND WEAKNESSES EVEN BEFORE GOD GAVE MOSES THE LAW IN OTHER THREADS.Abraham, David, Moses etc..all had their weakness BUT NOT Jesus who is the perfect law of liberty and that is whom you should follow? Did Paul not ask you that shall 'we continue in SIN that grace may abound"?
In the other threads i remember telling you the difference between the nature of sin and the acts of sins.
There is a reason why the bible put it as SIN and sins. Go check it they are not the same thing.

Ihedinobi:
Regard Moses's law as the model and Jesus as the actual building. Now, would the two look alike? Would they be the same principle (note the word)?

if one cannot create the actual building from the model, of what use is the model then? we know the Jews could not achieve love by reliance on the law.

shdemidemi:

Paul did not need any recommendation from anyone, neither was he taught by any man, His gospel is different from any other gospel preached by anyone.

Bidam, answer my questions na

You see my problem with you..why are you glorifying Paul instead of Jesus?

Ihedinobi:
Which of us advocates subjecting Christians to the dictates of the law of rituals (I know that that is what you actually mean)?

Not really. My focus has been on the moral aspect of the law e.g. the 10 commandment.

Ihedinobi:
How exactly does Moses help anyone comprehend the Gospel better?

with all the references to the OT in the NT teachings by the apostle, most of these teachings would have been greek to you if you don't have knowledge of what they talking about. anyways, it's still greek to some people.

Ihedinobi:
Are you saying that Paul's letters to individuals or, in fact, any letter to an individual in the Scriptures is irrelevant to the whole Church?

you are not adding value to this discussion if all you do is ask questions

shdemidemi:

Romans 1 explains that explicitly

For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,

Is that what that scripture actaully meant? ABEG make i travel before i die with laughter..keep them coming bro..bring it on..i will reply later thanks.

Bidam: This is just going round in circles. we have dealt about this things in almost all of goshen threads and i told him my stand as expanded by Jesus Christ the great Rabbi which is found in Mathew 5 :17-48 which ofcos by default is an OT scripture.

see what you wrote

Bidam: As an Orthodox Rabbi, Paul taught that Torah was indeed for Gentiles -- not for salvation, but as the direction they should be encouraged to follow subsequent to coming to faith. (As i mentioned, this was proclaimed by the Jerusalem council in Acts 15:21).

and i asked if you meant the same Torah summarized in Deut chapter 12 through 27? This will immediately throw up a question which is how many of them do you and i keep today? hint:we have 613 of them

Jesus sermon in matt 5:17-48 does not encapsulate the Torah as the Torah included the laws and the ordinances.all he dealt with there are summarized thus

Matt 22:37-40
''Jesus said unto him,thou shalt love the Lord they God with all thy heart,and with all thy soul,and with all thy mind.This is the first and great commandment.Ant the second is like unto it,Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.on these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets''

Jesus gave a new commandment just before he left for the cross and that is what is refered to as the law of Christ.it has nothing to do with the Torah.It emphasizes the crux of matt 5:17-48 and matt 22:37-40

John 13:34
''A new commandment i give unto you,That ye love one another:as i have loved you,that ye also love one another''

Bidam:
Is that what that scripture actaully meant? ABEG make i travel before i die with laughter..keep them coming bro..bring it on..i will reply later thanks.

why you dey fool ya self? i would advise that you read Romans 1.

Zikkyy:

i did not interpret your post to say zikkyy doing a recon for ihedinobi's enjoyment. have done a personal recon and don't see any relationship between my post and the scripture you referring to You first need to understand my post before asking for a recon. The 1 Timothy verse you referring to served the purpose when Paul made reference to it in 1 Corinthians 9.

my post was saying that one that is spirit led do not need to make reference to the written law (mosaic) to know he should not kill (for example). unless you are telling me the spirit himself is not aware of this fact and also need to consult the written law for such guidance. If Jesus did not need to law to guide his personal conduct why do i need the law now that i have Christ in me?

You are going far away my bro..what was Jesus quoting to the devil in luke 4:4 is it OT or NT? are you advocating that any one that has the Holy Spirit should no longer read the bible?

Bidam: Is that what that scripture actaully meant? ABEG make i travel before i die with laughter..keep them coming bro..bring it on..i will reply later thanks.

Ok, I will be waiting for your interpretation.

Zikkyy:

why you dey fool ya self? i would advise that you read Romans 1.

and what point is rom 1 making?