frosbel: .

DrummaBoy: Frosbel
Thanks for that piece. This visions on hell were beginning to get to me but somehow I am learning to ignore them all together.

With their leading apostle here on NL, Olaadegbu, never in short supply of these visions.

Apart from Paul saying Satan transforms to angels of light, Jesus started his discourse in MATT 24 with the words DO NOT BE DECEIVED.. FOR MANY WILL COME IN MY NAME SAYING I AM CHRIST... He was not saying we would have the likes of Jesus of Oyingbo, Guru Marathi, etc, (though we have those too), I believe he was telling what we are seeing today: people coming with visions allegedly from Christ - in his name - and bringing words from Him - saying they are Christ.

By their Fruits we will know them
1. This visions feast on the gullible
2. They support a church's narrow doctrinal position
3. They deny the grace of God
4. They paint God as a tyrrant and the aspect of God's love is hidden
5. etc

They cannot be of God.
Well done Frosbel.

lol.

shdemidemi:

1)MORALS---You don't apply morals to the things of God cos you know in part, you are limited to your five senses. therefore, I am prepared to believe WHATEVER it says, and to take it believing it to be the Word of God; for if it is not all true, it is not worth ANYTHING to me. It may be to the man/woman who is so wise that he can pick out the true from the false; but I am such a fool that I could not do that.

Vain human philosophy and reasoning, nothing to do with the word of GOD.

The penalty of sin has always been death.

2)Hell was not mentioned because people qualified to make heaven strictly by election and promise, the rest were condemned.

Condemned to what they did not know about ? Are you suggesting that GOD has a surprise for them in store on the day of resurrection ?

Also, be aware , it wasn't only Israelites where saved , countless other nations were saved, indeed many of them like Job where righteous. Let us not assume meanings into scripture, only God knows those who are his, he will judge the people of antiquity by the truth they possessed.

3) Rev 14:10-11, Daniel 12:2 etc

Daniel 12 does not support your eternal torment doctrine, it simply says everlasting contempt.

I have 2 questions on Revelation 14 , which in no way is talking about the final end of man , because the white throne judgement occurs in Revelation 20 not before , but let me assume this is talking about your eternal hell, can you explain :

1. "and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:" - Revelation 14:10b


Do you honestly believe that Jesus and his angels will be FOREVER beholding the torment of sinners ?


2. "and they have no rest day nor night" - Revelation 14:11b

When the bible says in Revelation 21 that there will be no more night ONLY day, how can this phrase 'day and night' apply to eternal torment since hell is supposed to be a place of outer darkness , void of light or any such thing.

In other words how can day and night apply to Hell , considering that it is a place of outer darkness ?

frosbel:

Vain human philosophy and reasoning, nothing to do with the word of GOD.

The penalty of sin has always been death.

If anyone is adopting any human philosophy, it is you cos the bible says we know in part until that which is perfect comes.

Man was made in the image and likeness of God, SIN made man lose the likeness/character of God but we retained the image. The death of Christ was the wage of sin. Anyone who believes would never die, study that properly.

frosbel:
Condemned to what they did not know about ? Are you suggesting that GOD has a surprise for them in store on the day of resurrection ?.

Every child that is born into the world is an enemy of God due to the imputation of sin through Adam. The bible says no one is righteous, not one. In the church age, we rely strictly on the grace through faith. Any unrighteous person is condemned.

frosbel:
Also, be aware , it wasn't only Israelites where saved , countless other nations were saved, indeed many of them like Job where righteous. Let us not assume meanings into scripture, only God knows those who are his, he will judge the people of antiquity by the truth they possessed..

What other nation had the oracle of God in the old?

frosbel:


Daniel 12 does not support your eternal torment doctrine, it simply says everlasting contempt.

I have 2 questions on Revelation 14 , which in no way is talking about the final end of man , because the white throne judgement occurs in Revelation 20 not before , but let me assume this is talking about your eternal hell, can you explain :

1. "and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:" - Revelation 14:10b


Do you honestly believe that Jesus and his angels will be FOREVER beholding the torment of sinners ?..

What I believe within my senses does not matter, what matters is what is written.

[quote author=shdemidemi]
If anyone is adopting any human philosophy, it is you cos the bible says we know in part until that which is perfect comes.

Hmm, I don't think you understand that scripture you just quoted. Read it again.

It has nothing to do with what God has pronounced as judgement for sin which was recorded in Genesis.

Man was made in the image and likeness of God, SIN made man lose the likeness/character of God but we retained the image. The death of Christ was the wage of sin. Anyone who believes would never die, study that properly.

The wages of sin is death, this applies to all who die in their sin. We can only be redeemed from the curse of death by believing in Jesus Christ. This is so simple.

Every child that is born into the world is an enemy of God due to the imputation of sin through Adam.

Wrong and double wrong.

I can see where you are coming from, from the cruel doctrine of Calvin , who I hope you know was a sadistic murderer.

"Jesus said, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these." - Matthew 19:14

The bible says no one is righteous, not one. In the church age, we rely strictly on the grace through faith. Any unrighteous person is condemned.

Indeed, when we come of age to know what is right and wrong, we have a moral obligation to do what is right , if we do so by the grace of GOD and faith in Christ Jesus , we are saved. If we choose wrong we die.

What other nation had the oracle of God in the old?

Do you know that there were other aliens who lived among the children of Israel ? There were also other believers who were not Israelies, e.g Job.

What I believe within my senses does not matter, what matters is what is written.

Are you a Robot ?

frosbel: Hmm, I don't think you understand that scripture you just quoted. Read it again.
It has nothing to do with what God has pronounced as judgement for sin which was recorded in Genesis.

All the verse says is that we are limited in knowledge, all we can do is believe what is written.

frosbel: The wages of sin is death, this applies to all who die in their sin. We can only be redeemed from the curse of death by believing in Jesus Christ. This is so simple

So how did we die to sin? Righteousness has been imputed in to us through Christ the same way sin was imputed through Adam. Christ paid the wages of sin..simple

frosbel: Wrong and double wrong.

I can see where you are coming from, from the cruel doctrine of Calvin , who I hope you know was a sadistic murderer.

"Jesus said, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these." - Matthew 19:14

How does that verse make them righteous? the scripture says-12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that [b]all [/b]have sinned:

frosbel: Do you know that there were other aliens who lived among the children of Israel ? There were also other believers who were not Israelies, e.g Job.

Is Job a nation? God deals with Israel has a nation and not as individuals. Exceptions of a few gentile happened in the old and during Christ's earthly ministry but that does not mean a whole gentile nation was saved. If you noticed in my earlier post, I said salvation was by election and promise in the old.

frosbel:
Are you a Robot ? .

Was Peter a robot when he denied Christ three times after he had been told. Was Judas a robot? God has his way of given us volition but we do or end up carrying out his will. Its called PROVIDENCE, I am only carrying out God's will.

shdemidemi:

Bro, as much as I am with you with eternal torment to the unrighteous, I am not for any new revelation from any man asides that which is in the bible-I have little confidence/poise in those people who speak of having received direct revelations
from the Lord, as though he appeared otherwise than by and through the sacred scriptures. His word 
is so full, so perfect, that for God to make any fresh revelation/expośe to you or me is quite needless.

As long as you agree with the truth about the reality of hell I don't have a problem with that. Its good to stick to the bible provided u stick to its truth without twisting it. Having said that, let me clarify this that am not saying the testimonies are higher than the bible or equal with the bible rather it simply proves that what the bible said about hell being a torment is not wrong or just a parable. As much as I agree with your stand not to rely on these testimonies I still want you to know that your stand doesn't also render the testimonies unreal or irrelevant. God is also using it to minister to souls and they are giving their lives to christ in thousands. Feel free with your stand. What am against is the hopeless satanic teachers here who make noise of their useless no-hell teaching.

shdemidemi:
What I believe within my senses does not matter, what matters is what is written.

Frosbel's problem is that he allows useless emotions to guide his interpretations of the scriptures. Too bad.

Now, I disagree with your interpretation of the wages of sin. The thing get hunch back. Not straight at all. Revisit your study about it. Thanks.

The Word of God is far superior to any supernatural experience which man could attain, or to any contemporary prophecy that man would or could give. The Word is immovable and dependable; you can count on it. Jesus said “Heaven and Earth shall pass away, but My Word shall not pass away”.

Faith cannot be built on experiences, because experiences will come and go very swiftly. They are not concrete, stable and reliable as the written Word. This is the reason why Peter calls the Word of God “a more sure word of prophecy”.

alexleo:

Frosbel's problem is that he allows useless emotions to guide his interpretations of the scriptures. Too bad.

Now, I disagree with your interpretation of the wages of sin. The thing get hunch back. Not straight at all. Revisit your study about it. Thanks.

You would understand 'wages of sin is death' from the view of grace through Christ. Christians became dead to sin and righteousness was imputed in us simply through the death of Christ.

DrummaBoy:

I appreciate your message to me.

However, the reason why your counsel is hard to receive is bc it betrays the same spirit that the hell revelators are trying to pass along: cohersion to devotion through fear.

Now, apparently you got my message wrong. I am not very sure of Frosbel's position on hell. But this is my position: Hell does exist. Hell was made for Satan and his cohorts. Hell shall have in them (also) as many as refuse to have faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and his saving work on the cross. Hell shall not have (genuine) Christians in it. And finally, the vision of hell as being propagated by many on this forum, led by Olaadegbu, yourself and others, are lies from Satan.

This is the word I believe God gave me concerning fear mongers like you and the others:

"...That their hearts be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God(doctrine of grace, Ephesians 3:2-4), and of the Father, and of Christ... and this I say, lest any man should beguile you with enticing words... As you have received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him (you received him by faith so walk by faith and not depending Mosaic Law for your rule of life): rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the fatih, as you have been taught (according to scriptures), abounding therein with thanksgiving (not fear). Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deciet, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ... And you are complete in Him, which is the head of all principality and power (my salvation is complete and finished; I am not trying to make heaven... heaven for me is made!)... Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days (or of TITHING, or of covering of hair, wearing lipsticks, wearing trousers, wearing wigs, etc, as is propagated by the Deeper Life Church and other hell-vision deceived sects): which are a shaddow of things to come; but the body is of Christ. Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels(and these visions and not wanting in angels), intruding into those things which he has not seen (propagating visions of hell you have not seen, but depending on a third party to tell), vainly puffed by his fleshly mind (the pride and self righteousness of these prophets on Nairaland is palpable), and not holding the Head(rather they hold unto what their General Superintendant says and not what Christ says), from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishement ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God..." Colosian 2:1-23

It will do you well to read the whole chapter because it ministers a lot to folks like you.

Two final words:

1. Notice from the begining of the qoute the calling for the Christian is to understand the mystery of God's word as delivered to Paul - that is the doctrine of God's grace. Some call it Church age doctrine. Jesus did not preach that message (in whole) bc the church was not birth until he died and shed his blood. This is what we are called to understand, and find comfort in.

2. Notice how many times in this chapter alone Paul emphasises "Let no man...". He envisioned the days when hell revelators will infitrate the church and begin to teach false doctrine and those days are here. Jesus said the same thing in Mattthew 24:4: "Take heed that no man deceive you".

I agree with Frosbel that the message of the cross is a message of God's love to a dying world and not fear; because fear breeds torment and no man is made perfect in fear.

I know you would not agree with me but I write this for other who may benefit.

I am taking one month leave from Nairaland religious section to attend to my academic work. I trust God to be back in July with a bang. I will still make out time to read posts but will rarely contribute.

Stay well everyone and God bless.

Honestly, the scripture you quoted applies to you because you have been enticed by sugar coated preaching.
Again you said you don't know frosbel's stand about hell? Hmmmmm...its hard to believe. Those of you who are his servants have a way of avoiding telling him his errors. Like i said before, the choice is yours. If you like twist the scripture anyhow, it doesn't change its truth. Thanks.

Only a schizophrenic , monstrous , sadistic psychopath will subject his creatures to an everlasting roasting in liquid sulfur , anyone who believes in this myth is either brainwashed and needs a reeducation or is a sadist himself. For the later case , you would fit very well into the medieval cruel and torture mad catholic church that murdered millions in the name of Christ.

God is LOVE.

frosbel:


Wrong !!

The wages of sin is death , means the death of the sinner, read Ezekiel chapters 18 and 36. When ADAM sinned the punishment was the curse of death.

It has not changed !

Also , it is morally unacceptable in most decent societies to burn thieves, torture victims, torment the weak and old, mutilate our enemies etc. We all agree that the catholic church carried out some of the worse crimes of torture in medieval times, which included but was not limited to burnings at the stake, cutting out tongues and disembowelment of their victims. We find these acts which were temporary very cruel and evil.

Why then is it, that we moral beings would dare insinuate that the God of mercy , justice and love will do 1000 times worse evils than all these wicked demons who plagued mankind for centuries ? Are we not putting the character of God on par with that of SATAN when we make these outrageous and misleading remarks about eternal torment ?

Who benefits from this torture business ?

It is important we reexamine all traditional doctrine we have learnt to ensure that they line up with the bible , otherwise we will be placing obstacles in the paths of millions who want to enter the kingdom but who find it difficult to reconcile a loving GOD to a monstrous sadist.

The brother asked you to provide scriptural backing for your position that there is no eternal torment. Of course, you have none. So you resort to morality of most decent societies. But does it occur to you that under the morality of most decent societies, the same thieves, etc that are not burnt or tortured in those societies are also not killed. That is, most "decent socieities" have abolished the death penalty for criminals (sinners). Yet, you agree that God will impose the death penalty on sinners in hell. If you really are guided by the morality of decent societies, then you have to agree that God would be an immoral God to attach the death penalty to bad behavior. Yet, you're not courageous enough to do so. Some consistency in reasoning!

nlMediator:

The brother asked you to provide scriptural backing for your position that there is no eternal torment. Of course, you have none.

Its either you are new to this board or being intentionally deceptive. If you were a good berean christian, you may have noticed a dozen or so related articles raised in recent times, where tons of scripture have been quoted and used to destroy the sadistic position of eternal torment , which is a medieval, catholic developed , cruel and downright satanic doctrine.

But does it occur to you that under the morality of most decent societies, the same thieves, etc that are not burnt or tortured in those societies are also not killed. That is, most "decent socieities" have abolished the death penalty for criminals (sinners).

This is a good point, it's goes to show that even death is considered to be a gruesome punishment in mostly politically correct societies.

Are we then better than GOD in terms of Morals , we who see killing people as evil talk less of torture, does this then indicate that GOD is morally inferior and therefore more liable to cause more hurt and harm to his creation ?

Have you heard these verses :

"But though he cause grief, yet will he have compassion according to the multitude of his mercies. 33For he does not afflict willingly nor grieve the children of men. 34To crush under his feet all the prisoners of the earth" - Lamentations 3:32-34

" The Almighty is beyond our reach and exalted in power; in his justice and great righteousness, he does not oppress."- Job 37:23

"Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign LORD. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live?" - Ezekiel 18:23

"For his anger lasts only a moment, but his favor lasts a lifetime; weeping may stay for the night, but rejoicing comes in the morning." - Psalm 30:5

Can you honestly tell me that this is the same GOD, who uttered these words that will torment his creatures , contrary to scripture , not for a day or 2, not even for 100 years but forever. If you believe this is the same God , then I truly think the 'god' you are talking about has a multiple personality disorder, sounds like SATAN to me.

Stop this nonsense, reason out scriptures and stop believing every doctrine because it was passed down by tradition.

Yet, you agree that God will impose the death penalty on sinners in hell. If you really are guided by the morality of decent societies, then you have to agree that God would be an immoral God to attach the death penalty to bad behavior. Yet, you're not courageous enough to do so. Some consistency in reasoning!

I agree that GOD will impose the death penalty of death on sinner in the lake of fire , because the bible says so, what the bible does not say is that there will be a never ending roasting for all eternity, this is the stuff of sadists.

There are 2 choices all over the bible , death and life.

Life is immortality, and death is the absence of such , anything else is adding to the word of GOD.

Think about it for a moment !!

Romans 6:23
King James Version (KJV)
23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

"but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die." - Genesis 2:17

" Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned " - Romans 5:12

^^^^Useless emotional display. What concerns u with sinners burning in hell forever? Are you playing some kind of gambling so that in case if u miss heaven you won't have to face eternal torture? Whether they burn forever or for sometime(which is false though) none is easy. Continually ask for grace to make heaven and stop the nonsense. Fear is your major problem. Why are you so afraid of God's punishment mr falsebel? Grace, grace and grace is what you need as a child of God(if you are actually one) and not fear.

alexleo: ^^^^Useless emotional display. What concerns u with sinners burning in hell forever? Are you playing some kind of gambling so that in case if u miss heaven you won't have to face eternal torture? Whether they burn forever or for sometime(which is false though) none is easy. Continually ask for grace to make heaven and stop the nonsense. Fear is your major problem. Why are you so afraid of God's punishment mr falsebel? Grace, grace and grace is what you need as a child of God(if you are actually one) and not fear.

I am saved, so there is nothing for me to fear, try reading 1 John 4:18.


My mission is to deliver young Christians and those on the outside who are confused by this sadistic doctrine, that while indeed there is judgement , God's will is for their salvation and peace, he does not want them to face an eternal death.

You need love in your life the way you sound, appears you do not know what is it , talk less of displaying it's fruits.

frosbel:

I am saved, so there is nothing for me to fear, try reading 1 John 4:18.


My mission is to deliver young Christians and those on the outside who are confused by this sadistic doctrine, that while indeed there is judgement , God's will is for their salvation and peace, he does not want them to face an eternal death.

You need love in your life the way you sound, appears you do not know what is it , talk less of displaying it's fruits.

I have no love for your satanic teaching. You are giving sinners false hope about their eternal destiny just like satan gives condemned criminals false hope that it will only take one bullet and they are dead and free from the pain and shame they are facing. You have allowed useless emotions to swallow you to the point of minsinterpreting the bible. What you are doing is exactly what satan did at the garden of Eden when he told Eve "thou shall not suely die"...in response to what she told him about the punishment that awaits them if they eat the fruit of the evil tree. Satan will always want to water God's punishment down and now he is using you to do same. Stop your message of deceit because you ll answer for it at the judgment throne.

^^^

What else is new ?

We are getting used to your angry rants , with a severe inability to contribute to this debate.

frosbel: ^^^

What else is new ?

We are getting used to your angry rants , with a severe inability to contribute to this debate.

Who cares about what you are getting used to? Stop your satanic teaching. You are deceiving weak minds and unsaved souls.

alexleo:

Who cares about what you are getting used to? Stop your satanic teaching. You are deceiving weak minds and unsaved souls.

pls say that to yourself.

Again I say, to Hell with the LIE of eternal Hell.

frosbel:

Again I say, to Hell with the LIE of eternal Hell.

Guess who the father of lies is?

Excluding frosbel, nobody else has answered my question.

I ask again: Who goes to heaven and who goes to hell?

OLAADEGBU:

Guess who the father of lies is?

indeed false teachers such as yourself who keep plaguing us with false visions of hell and heaven ,all originating from the father of lies.

frosbel:


indeed false teachers such as yourself who keep plaguing us with false visions of hell and heaven ,all originating from the father of lies.

Can we really trust you with the truth?

OLAADEGBU:

Can we really trust you with the truth?

^^^

A real prophet from the pits of hell doing what he knows best.

OLAADEGBU:

Can we really trust you with the truth?

Who goes to heaven and who goes to hell? Please support your answers with Bible passages and let it be in context.

Unbelief is such s strong demonic force that keeps people like frosbel from seeing or accepting the truth about hell. Even if Jesus is to appear to him and tell him about the reality of hell, he will still not believe. He will conclude that it was Satan that disguised himself as Christ. It is absurd to conclude that most of the revelation people have received concerning hell is of Satan when Satan himself is looking for ways to encourage people to continue in sin so they can fall under the judgment of God. Satan will never encourage people to believe in hell. Remember what he told Eve. He told her she will not surely die as God had said. He will persuade you to enjoy the pleasure of sin by telling you there will be no consequence for your action.

The very foundation of the church was laid on the reality of the existence of hell. "And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." (Matthew 16:18).
If you say hell is just a physical grave, let's put the word grave for hell in the passage above and see if it makes any sense. "And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of grave shall not prevail against it." (Matthew 16:18[i][/i])

Do graves have gates? Does been a Christian prevent you from being buried in the grave when you die? I would love those who say hell is grave like frosbel to please answer this two simple questions.

Even when John was in the spirit and saw the Lord as recorded in the book of Revelation, the first statement Jesus made revealed the existence of hell. " I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death." (Revelation 1:18). frosbel, plese prove to us that Jesus meant grave in this very context. Don't digress and stop quoting Old Testament which only had limited knowledge of God. Try and give us references only from the New Testament.

If you don't believe in hell as clearly revealed in the Bible, you will when you get there because that will be the destination of all the pervert the gospel of Christ and you will also meet all you have deceived waiting to stone you in hell. Your punishment will be worse than theirs.

[quote author=Ken4Christ]Unbelief is such s strong demonic force that keeps people like frosbel from seeing or accepting the truth about hell.

Keep up with the judgmentalism, it's characteristic of eternal torment believers, they try to trap the gullible and other unsuspecting believers with their web of fear.

The question you should ask yourself is , who benefits most from the gospel of fear.

Even if Jesus is to appear to him and tell him about the reality of hell, he will still not believe.

Jesus never , not once went into detail about Hell. He simply said it was a place of unquenchable fire which tallies with the lake of fire and further corroborated by Isaiah 66:24 as below :

“And they will go out and look on the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; the worms that eat them will not die, the fire that burns them will not be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind.” - Isaiah 66:24

Jesus never went into detail of a so called place , it was never preached by the apostles including Paul. Read the Acts of the Apostles and tell us why this your so called HELL is not ONCE mentioned.

He will conclude that it was Satan that disguised himself as Christ. It is absurd to conclude that most of the revelation people have received concerning hell is of Satan when Satan himself is looking for ways to encourage people to continue in sin so they can fall under the judgment of God

On the contrary, you forget that SATAN is a master deceiver, with the HELL doctrine he can portray GOD as a sadist who is more angry than happy and who is in a hurry to toss his creatures into a non ending furnace of fire. By doing this he has caused false converts ( tares ) to populate the church , produced a multitude of atheists and kept multitudes out of the kingdom.

After all who wants to worship a being who will never ever relent in his fierce punishment on their weak frames for all eternity.

Mate, the days of your sadistic & satanic doctrine from hell are over.

Satan will never encourage people to believe in hell.

He will as per above, this cruel doctrine of yours has destroyed lives , tormented children and made a mockery of our so called gospel of LOVE.

How can LOVE be truly LOVE when a gun is held to the head of the recipient ?

Remember what he told Eve. He told her she will not surely die as God had said. He will persuade you to enjoy the pleasure of sin by telling you there will be no consequence for your action.

So if he told Eve she will surely die, why did God not tell her upfront in all transparency and honesty that her punishment for sin was not DEATH but ETERNAL TORMENT.

Surely you are not saying that God is dishonest,are you ?

The very foundation of the church was laid on the reality of the existence of hell. "And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." (Matthew 16:18).

100% Gbam False.

The foundation on the church was laid on the truth that JESUS Christ is the Messiah the Son of the living GOD, the Christ and our beloved Savior and that the gates of DEATH or the GRAVE will not prevail against this precious TRUTH. What this means by implication is that DEATH or the GRAVE has no hold either on the person of Christ or his followers, who like Christ , will be resurrected from their graves , by the Power of the Spirit of Christ.

In other words there is 100% HOPE , for GOD is the author of HOPE for all who have died and will die in Christ Jesus.

It was never based on your mythical HELL.

If you say hell is just a physical grave, let's put the word grave for hell in the passage above and see if it makes any sense. "And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of grave shall not prevail against it." (Matthew 16:18[i][/i])

makes sense to me.

Do graves have gates? Does been a Christian prevent you from being buried in the grave when you die? I would love those who say hell is grave like frosbel to please answer this two simple questions.

Surely you are not insinuating that HELL has a gate, have you seen it ? Where else is this gate depicted in all scripture ? SMH.

Even when John was in the spirit and saw the Lord as recorded in the book of Revelation, the first statement Jesus made revealed the existence of hell. " I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death." (Revelation 1:18).

Indeed Jesus has the keys to unlock the dead from their graves into life immortal , this will happen at the resurrection.

frosbel, plese prove to us that Jesus meant grave in this very context. Don't digress and stop quoting Old Testament which only had limited knowledge of God. Try and give us references only from the New Testament.

I really get upset when you and your ilk portray God as deceitful and dishonest with his children, hiding from them the real consequences of their sin, only to reveal it to another generation thousand of years later.

This is deception and gross error, to suggest that GOD had double standards, i.e he makes known to us the reality of hell , but hid it from the human race of antiquity.

Stop misrepresenting GOD who is light , and in whom there is no shadow of turning..

If you don't believe in hell as clearly revealed in the Bible, you will when you get there because that will be the destination of all the pervert the gospel of Christ and you will also meet all you have deceived waiting to stone you in hell. Your punishment will be worse than theirs.

It is not clearly revealed in the bible, in fact , your mythical hell is a fable. What has been revealed is a LAKE OF FIRE for the purpose of destroying all sinners, including Satan and death itself.

"and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths." - 2 Timothy 4:4

Keep your empty threats to yourself.

You are very dishonest with your self. If replacing hell with grave in Matt 16:18 makes sense to you, then you are saying Jesus lied because believers are still been buried in the grave up till now. I urge all in this forum not to be deceived by frosbel. Hell is real but you dont have to go there. Jesus died for you to set you free from the damnation of hell. Accept him now and serve him in sincerity and truth.

Ken4Christ: You are very dishonest with your self. If replacing hell with grave in Matt 16:18 makes sense to you, then you are saying Jesus lied because believers are still been buried in the grave up till now. I urge all in this forum not to be deceived by frosbel. Hell is real but you dont have to go there. Jesus died for you to set you free from the damnation of hell. Accept him now and serve him in sincerity and truth.

Believers are buried in their graves till the resurrection :

"13 Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. 14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first." - 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18

Humble yourself and represent God in the correct way. He is a GOD of love and indeed justice, but he delights more in mercy than wrath, and even when he does exhibit wrath , it does not always last forever.

frosbel: Again I say, to Hell with the LIE of no Hell fire.

fixed

nep2ra:

Excluding frosbel, nobody else has answered my question.

I ask again: Who goes to heaven and who goes to hell?

Whose report do you believe, that of the Lord or that of the horned one?