Well said Enigma.

And Tgirl, collect one holy kiss.

Enigma: Chibuebem Bros

First of all, I'd like to say that my opinion is that no preacher or teacher knows it all, even Paul said so. In that sense, if we are nitpickers, we can find fault with any preacher at all. Second, I'd like to say that even those that some of us accuse as false teachers will quite often say accurate and even biblical things; therefore it is still possible to learn from them.

If I give you a very well forged 10 dollar bill, you may not immediately suspect me until e.g. if you pass the bill through some form of fake detector.

The WoF leaders are in the latter category; they clothe their message with "Christian-speak" or "Christianese", they add some supportable Christian ideas, they quote copiously from the Bible, but at the heart of their message, they hide poison which subverts the message of Christ.

Another illustration often used: if I place a bottle of liquid marked clearly "Poison", right thinking people will not drink from it; if I put small poison (though enough to kill) in a bottle of cola, even otherwise sensible people may unknowingly drink the poisoned cola.

The WoF message subverts the teaching of Christ in many ways even belittling Christ and God the Father while elevating man to the status of "god": where Christ and the apostles taught contentment, the WoF message teaches "name it and claim it"; and the "positive confession" thing goes beyond just having a positive outlook or trusting in Jesus' statements like "be of good cheer" in that the positive confession thing is seen as being able to create things/realities etc.

On whether I think a pastor should be poor, my answer is - 'not necessarily unless that is a calling for him'. On the other hand, a Christian let alone a pastor is not supposed to be obsessed with money and wealth --- which in the end is what WoF does!

Have you ever seen Creflo Dollar & co doing the "Money cometh to me" madness on video?

Compare with 1 Timothy 6

These are the things you are to teach and insist on. 3 If anyone teaches otherwise and does not agree to the sound instruction of our Lord Jesus Christ and to godly teaching, 4 they are conceited and understand nothing. They have an unhealthy interest in controversies and quarrels about words that result in envy, strife, malicious talk, evil suspicions 5 and constant friction between people of corrupt mind, who have been robbed of the truth and who think that godliness is a means to financial gain.

6 But godliness with contentment is great gain. 7 For we brought nothing into the world, and we can take nothing out of it. 8 But if we have food and clothing, we will be content with that. 9 Those who want to get rich fall into temptation and a trap and into many foolish and harmful desires that plunge people into ruin and destruction. 10 For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil. Some people, eager for money, have wandered from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs.

11 But you, man of God, flee from all. 12 Fight the good fight of the faith. Take hold of the eternal life to which you were called when you made your good confession in the presence of many witnesses. 13 In the sight of God, who gives life to everything, and of Christ Jesus, who while testifying before Pontius Pilate made the good confession, I charge you 14 to keep this command without spot or blame until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15 which God will bring about in his own time—God, the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords, 16who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To him be honor and might forever. Amen.

17 Command those who are rich in this present world not to be arrogant nor to put their hope in wealth, which is so uncertain, but to put their hope in God, who richly provides us with everything for our enjoyment. 18 Command them to do good, to be rich in good deeds, and to be generous and willing to share. 19 In this way they will lay up treasure for themselves as a firm foundation for the coming age, so that they may take hold of the life that is truly life.

Sir, i speak primarily of Mr. Hagin. I do not know about the others. As I said earlier, yes, kenneth hagin taught prosperity, but he taught other things as well. And HE WROTE A BOOK to curtail the excesses you have stated in his followers. I defend his teachings as they are based on Gods word. Have you read his books?
PS: can it be Gods will for one to be poor? If yes, how can you know?

Chibuebem: Sir, i speak primarily of Mr. Hagin. I do not know about the others. As I said earlier, yes, kenneth hagin taught prosperity, but he taught other things as well. And HE WROTE A BOOK to curtail the excesses you have stated in his followers. I defend his teachings as they are based on Gods word. Have you read his books?
PS: can it be Gods will for one to be poor? If yes, how can you know?

First, let me go back to a point you made in your earlier post about whether "this is the right way". By this I understand the question to mean whether we should be washing our dirty linen in public or whether we should be naming and shaming like this.

I have had to examine this question and also refrained from talking about this people on this Board for some time now --- for a variety of reasons.

However, the thread has already been opened (whether for good or for ill); and if on the thread there is a threat that innocent, honest, well-meaning Christians may be unknowingly falling prey to dangerous people, then it becomes necessary, or at least it becomes difficult not, to speak out!

Now, it is true and fair that Hagin later tried to "correct excesses". However, that was years after having taught the very things that led to or even constituted the so-called "excesses". Yes, followers of a teacher may abuse his teachings to "excesses"; I am not convinced that is the case with Hagin; my view is that the so-called "excesses" are a direct result and effect of the falsehoods that he taught for years! And Hagin taught Copeland directly and Copeland taught Dollar directly. They all claim that what they are doing is following Hagin's teaching.

On whether it can be God's will for one to be poor, my answer is 'Yes, it can be! It may be a controversial answer but I believe God can do anything for His own purpose and glory. Please read the story of Hosea and even Isaiah. Consider the answer when Paul asked that a thorn should be removed from him; check Paul talking about his various sufferings and circumstances.

Enigma:

First, let me go back to a point you made in your earlier post about whether "this is the right way". By this I understand the question to mean whether we should be washing our dirty linen in public or whether we should be naming and shaming like this.

I have had to examine this question and also refrained from talking about this people on this Board for some time now --- for a variety of reasons.

However, the thread has already been opened (whether for good or for ill); and if on the thread there is a threat that innocent, honest, well-meaning Christians may be unknowingly falling prey to dangerous people, then it becomes necessary, or at least it becomes difficult not, to speak out!

Now, it is true and fair that Hagin later tried to "correct excesses". However, that was years after having taught the very things that led to or even constituted the so-called "excesses". Yes, followers of a teacher may abuse his teachings to "excesses"; I am not convinced that is the case with Hagin; my view is that the so-called "excesses" are a direct result and effect of the falsehoods that he taught for years! And Hagin taught Copeland directly and Copeland taught Dollar directly. They all claim that what they are doing is following Hagin's teaching.

On whether it can be God's will for one to be poor, my answer is 'Yes, it can be! It may be a controversial answer but I believe God can do anything for His own purpose and glory. Please read the story of Hosea and even Isaiah. Consider the answer when Paul asked that a thorn should be removed from him; check Paul talking about his various sufferings and circumstances.

so how can one know if it is Gods will for him/her to be poor? Os should one just accept poverty when it comes his way? My opinion Sir, is this:...and my God shall supply ALL your NEEDS according to HIS RICHES IN GLORY. I believe its amazing the way paul dismisses physical blessings with a verse or two, and emphasisez the blessing of knowing God through his word, which is the exact opposite of what many believers do. Yes, we should not get into error sir, but i still haven't been given enough evidence that much of what Hagin taught was falsehood.

Chibuebem: so how can one know if it is Gods will for him/her to be poor?

Bros

First of all please note that I have not said that it is God's will that anyone be poor. What I have said is that it can be!

OK to your question then: the first way to answer it is to ask you to reflect on how anyone can know what is God's will for him/her. Of course we know that generally God delights in our well being. So we can say that our well being is God's will. Incidentally, if the word "prosperity" is properly defined, we can substitute it for "well being" in that my statement and recast it thus: we know that generally our "prosperity" is God's will.

On the other hand, we see in the Bible that God had specific purposes for particular individuals: there are various ways that such people knew God's will. God spoke to them or they heard God in some form or other. Even today, some people genuinely feel a calling to be a pastor! So how can it not then be possible for a person to know if God is calling them to a life of "self-deprivation". I have deliberately used the expression "self-deprivation" instead of "poor" because you may even have a person of great wealth who forsakes it or devotes it and his/her life towards helping others. Read for example about this man known as [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_M%C3%BCller]George Muller of Bristol[/url]!

God bless.

Enigma:

Bros

First of all please note that I have not said that it is God's will that anyone be poor. What I have said is that it can be!

OK to your question then: the first way to answer it is to ask you to reflect on how anyone can know what is God's will for him/her. Of course we know that generally God delights in our well being. So we can say that our well being is God's will. Incidentally, if the word "prosperity" is properly defined, we can substitute it for "well being" in that my statement and recast it thus: we know that generally our "prosperity" is God's will.

On the other hand, we see in the Bible that God had specific purposes for particular individuals: there are various ways that such people knew God's will. God spoke to them or they heard God in some form or other. Even today, some people genuinely feel a calling to be a pastor! So how can it not then be possible for a person to know if God is calling them to a life of "self-deprivation". I have deliberately used the expression "self-deprivation" instead of "poor" because you may even have a person of great wealth who forsakes it or devotes it and his/her life towards helping others. Read for example about this man known as [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_M%C3%BCller]George Muller of Bristol[/url]!

God bless.

GOD bless you too sir.

God bless you Enigma. Your description of those 3 men is just perfect. That Copeland is sum'n else...Oyaks is a kid beside him.

What should be our attitude when someone questions what we beleive in? The godly thing to do is to go back and check if what we truly believe is right or wrong and not hauling insults at people. If we must know, scripture uses more offensive words to describe false teachers.

Well, if not for anything, I am glad someone like Chi is asking questions.

@ Teeo, you can't claim to sift what you hear when you sit under a false teacher. A lil leaven leavens the whole lump.

Secondly, sitting under a church you don't believe/practise what they preach makes you a hypocrite.

Simples!

Muskeeto, thanks.

@frosbel:

by frosbel(m): 11:03pm On Jul 27

idnoble135: ^ i asked a question earlier.
If some thing is wrong with it, can you please explain why the bible said the apostles were thought to be drunk when they recieved the Holy Spirit in Acts 2


They were praising GOD in other tongues.

There was no uncontrollable laughter, shaking violently, barking like dogs, crawling on the floor etc.

God is not the author of confusion.

so all the holy ghost was able to get the people do on pentecost was 'praising God in different tongues? how do you know which tongues and if they were actually praising and it was God they were praising?

But Jesus said nothing about praising God, but other things that the another comforter shall do.


I think the day of pentecost was not the day "another comforter" arrived. Truly God is not the Author of confusion.

teeo: Let me hint you about a sermon i heard this sunday, the pastor was saying all the right things until he got to a point where he said the following comments. i cant remember exactly how he said it but let me paraphrase.

You as members are to be a blessing to your pastor, God has said it the tithes should be brought into the house of God. Some of you would listen to people say all sort of things about your pastors who have private jets, it is not your business, it doesnt concern you if your pastor owns a private jet. Your business is to be a blessing to him and when God blesses you, you can choose to do what you like with yours.
He continued, you are not to take your tithe and give to the poor, it is for the church where you are being blessed, God has a protocol(and am like wtf), his protocol fo beggers is alms. You cannot be blessed by your pastor the same way another who writes a cheque for him is blessed

The whole of this part went through my ears and came out the other way. I was still blessed by the remaining sermon. Everybody adds a little personality to what they preach as long as it isnt what i know is not a commandment of God, i am not compelled to act on it. I believe in faith and the Living word of faith, simple but no pastor is going to corner me into giving anyhow.

My brother, you're a true child of God! What you did is exactly what I do. And that was exactly what Hagin continually encouraged.

“We shall, as we ripen in grace, have greater sweetness towards our fellow Christians. Bitter-spirited Christians may know a great deal, but they are immature. Those who are quick to censure may be very acute in judgment, but they are as yet very immature in heart. He who grows in grace remembers that he is but dust, and he therefore does not expect his fellow Christians to be anything more; he overlooks ten thousand of their faults, because he knows his God overlooks twenty thousand in his own case. He does not expect perfection in the creature, and, therefore, he is not disappointed when he does not find it. ... I know we who are young beginners in grace think ourselves qualified to reform the whole Christian church. We drag her before us, and condemn her straightway; but when our virtues become more mature, I trust we shall not be more tolerant of evil, but we shall be more tolerant of infirmity, more hopeful for the people of God, and certainly less arrogant in our criticisms.”
― Charles H. Spurgeon, Spurgeon's Sermons Vol. 1-10

^^

I agree with your post bro, but exposing the unfruitful works of darkness and especially false damnable doctrines, does not count as bitterness.

To keep quiet when the poison is being prepared for the spiritual slaughter of our brothers and sisters is next to a crime against humanity.

The main objective for all believers is the kingdom of GOD and through much tribulation we will enter into it, not through the sweet coated, ear friendly doctrines of demons being perpetuated in many so called Christian circles.

Remember Jim Jones !

frosbel:


Mate, your statement does not change the fact that you are following after false prophets and false teachers, you need to come back to the bible.

You do not need to travel for miles to get your healing, except of course your prayers are not working, then you need to check up.

The WOLF movement is dangerous for your health.

Obviously, you know next to nothing about WOF, your claims to the contrary notwithstanding. WOF emphasizes praying and believing for yourself. You heard the charge about WOF and confession. Who do you think makes that confession of healing? The person that needs healing or the evangelist on the crusade ground? Few months after getting saved, I went to this brother who was a leader of a WOF fellowship and asked him to pray for me, as I had a fever (malaria?). Instead of praying for me, the guy gave me verses of scripture to read and believe on healing. I was a babe! Now, I concede that some WOFers depend on their pastors to an unhealthy extent. But you can find that in virtually in non-WOF churches too. So, why focus on WOF?

Did I read you right that a person that needs healing should pray for his healing and expect to be healed and if it does not happen, something is wrong with the sick person? Imagine if a WOFer said that. Some people here would have been up in arms and unfold pages of writing about WOF leaders and their relatives that did not get healed. And you’d join them. That’s what I find unfortunate. As Bro. Hagin would say, it’d be funny if it wasn’t so pathetic.

frosbel: ^^

I agree with your post bro, but exposing the unfruitful works of darkness and especially false damnable doctrines, does not count as bitterness.

To keep quiet when the poison is being prepared for the spiritual slaughter of our brothers and sisters is next to a crime against humanity.

The main objective for all believers is the kingdom of GOD and through much tribulation we will enter into it, not through the sweet coated, ear friendly doctrines of demons being perpetuated in many so called Christian circles.

Remember Jim Jones !

Very funny. The truth is that you are accused of peddling false doctrines too. So, everything you accuse them of applies to you too. Difference is that while you are receiving your assaults directly, the people you are attacking do not know that any of you exists. That must be painful, seeing that some of you actually think you have any significance and that your words are affecting anything about WOF. Some of the accusers have been at this game for upwards of 2 decades, going from site to site, place to place, railing against WOF. Yet, instead of their predictions of WOF imploding, it is exploding! Alleluia!!

^^^^^^^
WELL SAID

^^^^^^^
WELL SAID

Bidam: “We shall, as we ripen in grace, have greater sweetness towards our fellow Christians. Bitter-spirited Christians may know a great deal, but they are immature. Those who are quick to censure may be very acute in judgment, but they are as yet very immature in heart. He who grows in grace remembers that he is but dust, and he therefore does not expect his fellow Christians to be anything more; he overlooks ten thousand of their faults, because he knows his God overlooks twenty thousand in his own case. He does not expect perfection in the creature, and, therefore, he is not disappointed when he does not find it. ... I know we who are young beginners in grace think ourselves qualified to reform the whole Christian church. We drag her before us, and condemn her straightway; but when our virtues become more mature, I trust we shall not be more tolerant of evil, but we shall be more tolerant of infirmity, more hopeful for the people of God, and certainly less arrogant in our criticisms.”
― Charles H. Spurgeon, Spurgeon's Sermons Vol. 1-10

My brother, thank you for this beautiful quote. Problem is that the critics are very clever. What they do first is lie to themselves and lie to others that WOFers are not even christians. That way, they have free rein to assault it, showing no love to their brethren, while fooling themselves that they're doing the work of God. How do I know? Because in their unguarded moments, you hear stuff like: "as terrible as WOF is, I can worship in a WOF church, if . . . ." If they truly belive the crap they peddle against WOF, they cannot even consider worshipping there for a second. Another trick is to drop every sense of logic. If a man's followers are working in excess, the man is to blame. Following that logic, the law lecturer is to blame for the former student who becomes an unethical prosecutor or civil litigator. After all, these people had no criminal history until they attended law school! Apostle Paul is to blame for early christians turning grace into licentiousness. Etc. Etc. Third, they shamelessly lie agasint the WOF message. If the message is so terrible, why add lies to crucify it? Fourth, they make it appear that WOF is behind every problem in the church. WOF is probably less than 1% of the worldwide Church. If 99% of believers were without greed, selfishness and all the things they accuse WOF of, why are we not hearing from non-christians about how good christians are, with the tiny exception of this little group called WOF? Finally, a thread like this would have been a good forum to point out specific teachings of Hagin, in particular, that are wrong. After several days and direct pleas, not one of them has been able to do so. Instead, they waste their time and ours with inane generalities like poisons and parables. The consolation is that nobody outside their pitiful crowd seems to be convinced or persuaded by their shenanigans.

nlMediator:

My brother, thank you for this beautiful quote. Problem is that the critics are very clever. What they do first is lie to themselves and lie to others that WOFers are not even christians. That way, they have free rein to assault it, showing no love to their brethren, while fooling themselves that they're doing the work of God. How do I know? Because in their unguarded moments, you hear stuff like: "as terrible as WOF is, I can worship in a WOF church, if . . . ." If they truly belive the crap they peddle against WOF, they cannot even consider worshipping there for a second. Another trick is to drop every sense of logic. If a man's followers are working in excess, the man is to blame. Following that logic, the law lecturer is to blame for the former student who becomes an unethical prosecutor or civil litigator. After all, these people had no criminal history until they attended law school! Apostle Paul is to blame for early christians turning grace into licentiousness. Etc. Etc. Third, they shamelessly lie agasint the WOF message. If the message is so terrible, why add lies to crucify it? Fourth, they make it appear that WOF is behind every problem in the church. WOF is probably less than 1% of the worldwide Church. If 99% of believers were without greed, selfishness and all the things they accuse WOF of, why are we not hearing from non-christians about how good christians are, with the tiny exception of this little group called WOF? Finally, a thread like this would have been a good forum to point out specific teachings of Hagin, in particular, that are wrong. After several days and direct pleas, not one of them has been able to do so. Instead, they waste their time and ours with inane generalities like poisons and parables. The consolation is that nobody outside their pitiful crowd seems to be convinced or persuaded by their shenanigans.

Beautifully spoken bro..Thank God for people like you who really knows what is happening in the body of Christ.The same WOF they say is poisonous still teaches the fundamentals of the christian faith which is belief in the death and Resurrection of our lord and saviour Jesus CHRIST, eternal life and faith towards God.The spurgeon quote said it all,we should be more tolerant of ourselves instead of attacking and name calling,that way the unbelievers will love to come to the faith.A house divided against itself cannot stand.

Enigma:
Now, it is true and fair that Hagin later tried to "correct excesses". However, that was years after having taught the very things that led to or even constituted the so-called "excesses". Yes, followers of a teacher may abuse his teachings to "excesses"; I am not convinced that is the case with Hagin; my view is that the so-called "excesses" are a direct result and effect of the falsehoods that he taught for years! And Hagin taught Copeland directly and Copeland taught Dollar directly. They all claim that what they are doing is following Hagin's teaching.

Hagin corrected excesses in the area prosperity , not excesses in his own teaching. I don't think you've read any of his materials . He has always been a balanced man.

On whether it can be God's will for one to be poor, my answer is 'Yes, it can be! It may be a controversial answer but I believe God can do anything for His own purpose and glory. Please read the story of Hosea and even Isaiah. Consider the answer when Paul asked that a thorn should be removed from him; check Paul talking about his various sufferings and circumstances.

It can never be Gods desire for people to be poor. Our assignment may require sacrifice which is our self denial . Very call in God requires self denial one way or the other . If I deny myself food in fasting ,it's different from suffering for lack of food. Every christian has right to know what belongs to him in christ. Thats doesn't mean he goes after them. So sacrifice is different from porverty which is from the devil or from ignorance . And prosperity is not thiesame as worldliness and materialism . Christian need wealth for the gospel sake .being rich yet living in denial .


1 Corinthians 6:12
All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.

Tgirl4real:


Thanks for the kind words. I have left the critic biz for the men and teachers.

I just believe some things are said without given. I assumed we all are on the same page about certain things, forgetting this is NL.

Well, I respect Hagin a lot and followed him religiously (I used to think I had the prophetic calling)

One of the visions he had that didn't come to pass is that he was gonna see Jesus' second coming b4 he died.

He was also not totally truthful about his healing. He was hospitalized b4 he died.

We must all admit that the walk of faith is not a cut and dried project. God is a master who is actively involved in the end from the beginning and he is the reason we all must exercise restraint in our actions. See what Paul wrote.

9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

I don't blame prophets when their prophesy fail. At least we know that Nineveh did not fall to Jonahs disappointment, why? they repented and the most high changed his mind. New events can change old prophesies, especially if the prophet (a remote server), delighted in accessing God (the central server) forgets to frequently refresh with the central server. It no fault of the server, and its no fault of the central server, but surely the client desktops will experiences a system error, and complain.

Bidam: Beautifully spoken bro..Thank God for people like you who really knows what is happening in the body of Christ.The same WOF they say is poisonous still teaches the fundamentals of the christian faith which is belief in the death and Resurrection of our lord and saviour Jesus CHRIST, eternal life and faith towards God.The spurgeon quote said it all,we should be more tolerant of ourselves instead of attacking and name calling,that way the unbelievers will love to come to the faith.A house divided against itself cannot stand.

19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

Preaching Christ is not all. john attest that the Antichrists used to be in the church, know everything about the church and indeed act church, but they add their error

18 ¶ Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

pet_saint:

19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

Preaching Christ is not all. john attest that the Antichrists used to be in the church, know everything about the church and indeed act church, but they add their error

18 ¶ Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

The question begging for answers is: What error did Hagin preached?

Bidam: The question begging for answers is: What error did Hagin preached?

Prosperity gospel in all it's entirety is error derived from twisted gospel and inspired by the devil himself to distract believers from christ and focus on selves.

^^^ you can't be more right.

Prosperity gospel is another gospel separate from the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Joagbaje
Iwo o ti jawo ninu false doctrine!

YEAH, WE SEE hagin 'balance' in that OP video!

Nonsense and ingredients.

Pastor Kun:

Prosperity gospel in all it's entirety is error derived from twisted gospel and inspired by the devil himself to distract believers from christ and focus on selves.

Then you need to define prosperity in the biblical context.Because what i see you guys arguing about here is materialism and NOT godly prosperity.We need to rightly divide in the word of truth here. 3 John 1:2

King James Version.

Beloved, I wish above all things that thou mayest prosper and be in health, even as thy soul prospereth .

shdemidemi: ^^^ you can't be more right.

Prosperity gospel is another gospel separate from the gospel of Jesus Christ.

What is your definition of prosperity?

Romans 8
16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together.

Suffering is part of the deal bro, although our sufferings are relative. Some Christians won't have children, some won't have money, some won't have husbands etc.

22For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now. 23 Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body. 24 For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance.

The bible says believers groan even like unbelievers, the whole world groan but believers groan in hope of glory.

20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope;

God subjected us to suffering so we can hop, hope for the glory of when we will be present with Christ.

This is different from the Heath and wealth gospel of demons.

shdemidemi: Romans 8
16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together.

Suffering is part of the deal bro, although our sufferings are relative. Some Christians won't have children, some won't have money, some won't have husbands etc.

22For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now. 23 Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body. 24 For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance.

The bible says believers groan even like unbelievers, the whole world groan but believers groan in hope of glory.

20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope;

God subjected us to suffering so we can hop, hope for the glory of when we will be present with Christ.

This is different from the Heath and wealth gospel of demons.

You fail to see that i totally agree with the scriptures you quoted,pls can you refer us to a teaching by hagin where he taught error?

Bidam: You fail to see that i totally agree with the scriptures you quoted,pls can you refer us to a teaching by hagin where he taught error?

I am not a follower of the man , so I can't answer that question. I did not condemn the man either, all I said was prosperity gospel is another gospel that has no precedence in the scriptures. If he is preaching prosperity for believers through Christ, he is definitely a false teacher.

Bidam: Then you need to define prosperity in the biblical context.Because what i see you guys arguing about here is materialism and NOT godly prosperity.We need to rightly divide in the word of truth here. 3 John 1:2

King James Version.

Beloved, I wish above all things that thou mayest prosper and be in health, even as thy soul prospereth .

Stop playing around with words, we all know that the prosperity Paul was praying for in that verse is different from the greed motivated one that Hagin and his cohorts preach.

shdemidemi:

I am not a follower of the man, I did not condemn the man as well. All I said was prosperity gospel is another gospel that has no precedence in the scriptures. If he is preaching prosperity for believers through Christ, he is definitely a false teacher.

I think the best form of criticism is to read a book and not to hear a third party say it.Thank you.

Bidam: Then you need to define prosperity in the biblical context.Because what i see you guys arguing about here is materialism and NOT godly prosperity.We need to rightly divide in the word of truth here. 3 John 1:2

King James Version.

Beloved, I wish above all things that thou mayest prosper and be in health, even as thy soul prospereth .

If Paul says he wishes them all this, does that make it a doctrine to be preached! This is what he had to say about tribulations/ problems and afflictions we go through as believers-

3 ........ we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;

4 And patience, experience; and experience, hope:

5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.