Bidam: #yawns# all this thrash just because of the impact Hagin made..these people get time sha..make i go sleep jare.

shdemidemi:

He wishes(a prayer) you to be in good health and he wishes your soul to prosper(spiritual prosperity).

Ken4Christ: I can see that there is so much ignorance today on spiritual matters. If the experience on the day of Pentecost was not weird, they would not have taken them for people that were drunk. If they had spoken in tongue in a quiet and most composed manner, nobody would have taken them for drunks. The experience the early disciples had could not have been much different from what you see in Kenneth Hagin's meeting. .

nlMediator: So after many pages and wasted hours, not one person can still point ONE error in HAGIN's message? And here we have people that are quick to judge. Lord have mercy.

Joagbaje:

You're adding to the bible . He didnt say spiritual prosperity . The prosperity here is physical and material .

3 John 1:2
We're the best of friends, and I pray for good fortune in everything you do, and for your good health––that your everyday affairs prosper, as well as your soul!

DrummaBoy:

So it was not a spiritual prosperity. So he prayed for his friends that they may be well in the physical as their sould prospers. Have you written a letter before? When you write such letters what do you say? "I hope it is well with you? How are the children? I pray that you will prosper O, my brother, as your soul prospers".

That was a prayer; it was a wish from a friend to a friend; it is not an all time authrized scirpture that commands Christians to be prosperous and healthy.

Well, of course, it is. How else shall you see it? having being veiled with the prosperity gospel for so long. You had better find another church; those charlattans will do you no good.

Kenny4lyfe:
Don't worry, Apostle Paul wouldn't need to take your "Letter Writting 101" at all. He's with the Lord already! I think the one who needs to find his spiritual bearings is very obvious here!

shdemidemi:

Give us the name of one apostle that enjoyed this health and wealth through the gospel of Christ please. If you can't show us how they revelled in this sort of riches, health and wealth you crave and pray for, don't you think there must be something wrong somewhere?

Ken4Christ: ....

I have been 27 years in the faith, Kenneth Hagin's teachings has affected my life positively more than the teachings of every other ministers put together. ...

Ken4Christ: .... If frosbel and those who join him to speak againt these men of God live more than two years from now, I will call it a miracle. They are just programming their lives for early death. ....

DrummaBoy:

Coherence... my friend. Speak intelligibly

Apostle Paul you said... while we are discussing an apostle John quote. Are you ok?

DrummaBoy:

So it was not a spiritual prosperity. So he prayed for his friends that they may be well in the physical as their sould prospers. Have you written a letter before? When you write such letters what do you say? "I hope it is well with you? How are the children? I pray that you will prosper O, my brother, as your soul prospers".

That was a prayer; it was a wish from a friend to a friend;

DrummaBoy:

1 Corinthians 4:



That, oh Bidam, is 1 Corinthians 4, depicting the life and ministry of the apostles, not just Paul alone. Contrast it with how Hagin and these modern pastors live and make the right conclusions. The message these men claim to preach is not the gospel of Christ. Simple!

DrummaBoy:

That is right... thrash! That is what they teach and now they are exposed!!

Joagbaje:

I don't really get your point. The word "wish " stands for prayer in this context. Just like I say "I WISH YOU SAFE JOURNEY" that's a prayer for safe trip.

Moffat translation reads

3 John 1:2
My dear friend, I pray that you may in all respects prosper and enjoy good health, just as your soul already prospers.

If prosperity not of God why praying such prayer on Gods people. Why dint he say I wish you poverty and suffering as you guys preach.

Gombs:

Might I add 2corinth 9 v 11 (NIV)

11 You will be made rich in every way so that you can
be generous on every occasion , and through us your
generosity will result in thanksgiving to God.

Prosperity is of God, why can devil's children(ritualists, killers, robbers etc) be rich and God's can't? Is it that God don't want goodies for his kids?

Look what God said here in Zacharia 1 v 14-16 (KJV),

14 So the angel that communed with me said unto me,
Cry thou, saying, Thus saith the LORD of hosts; I am
jealous for Jerusalem and for Zion with a great
jealousy.
15 And I am very sore displeased with the heathen that are at ease : for I was but a little displeased, and they helped forward the affliction.
16 Therefore thus saith the LORD; I am returned to
Jerusalem with mercies: my house shall be built in it,
saith the LORD of hosts, and a line shall be stretched
forth upon Jerusalem.

He wants us to prosper in every good work, spirit, soul and body.

"Let the Lord be magnified, Who has pleasure in the prosperity of His servant."
Psalm 35:27

God Gets Great Pleasure In Prospering His People. If you don’t want prosperity, God won’t force it on you.
He won’t give you anything that you don’t want to
receive. Yes God loves to prosper you but if you draw
back in fear and give up on faith, God has no pleasure in you.
Faith is the key to receiving and pleasing God. You must
have faith in order to please God( Hebrews 11:6).

DrummaBoy:

Coherence... my friend. Speak intelligibly

Apostle Paul you said... while we are discussing an apostle John quote. Are you ok?

Joagbaje:

Some of them didnt marry ,why dont you copy that? It's their personal sacrifice . They made others rich.


2Corinthians 6:10
(We) as poor, yet making many rich; as having nothing, and yet possessing all things.

shdemidemi:

Why can't people decipher between spiritual growth and well being to mundane, profane and earthly prosperity?

Is it hard to understand

DrummaBoy:

We write our position omit WoF U say it is rubbish; we quote someone else U say it is hogwash.

What exactly do U want O Bidam

Continue with your bondage to the Law and revealing in worldly prosperity and demonic spirit manifestations. I am done with U on this forum!

Bidam: Your foolishness keeps growing in miles per sec..Is your spiritual growth and well being NOT manifested in your physical well being The spiritual always determines the physical,even the devil knows that.

Bidam: Your foolishness keeps growing in miles per sec..Is your spiritual growth and well being NOT manifested in your physical well being The spiritual always determines the physical,even the devil knows that.

Ken4Christ: I have watched the video. I do not see anything strange about it. The truth is that the things of the spirit are foolishness to the carnal man. If frosbel and those who join him to speak againt these men of God live more than two years from now, I will call it a miracle. They are just progra
mming their lives for early death. I feel sorry for them. These men are among the greatest teachers of the word of God in our generation.

alexleo:

Ahhhhh....bros, the bold is quite a bad statement o. Is Kenneth Hagin God or Holy Spirit? Even those who abuse God here he has shown mercy so why will those who speak against Hagin's practices that are strange to the scriptures now die? Abeg this one no hold water. Nobody is dying anything. let the debate continue without all this pls. Thanks.

DrummaBoy: Here Copeland makes it absolutely clear that the price had to be paid by suffering beyond the cross.This means he had no victory at the cross but he lost and it was victory 3 days later in Hell.

"The Devil forgot to take into consideration that Jesus hadn’t sinned Himself but, rather, had merely become sin as a result of the sin of others." (Kenneth Copeland, What Happened from the Cross to the Throne 1990 audio tape #02-0017, side 2.)


"... Jesus died two deaths. He died physically and He died spiritually. When Jesus was made to be sin, He was separated from God... When His blood poured out, it did not atone. It did away with the handwriting of the ordinances that were against us... Jesus spent three horrible days and nights in the bowels of this earth getting back for you and me our rights with God..." (doctrinal statement dated March 12, 1979)

Hagin denies unequivocally the "finished work on the cross. "Hagin states "He (Jesus) tasted spiritual death for every man. And his spirit and inner man went to hell in my place. Can’t you see that? PHYSICAL DEATH WOULDN’T REMOVE YOUR SINS. He tasted death for every man. He’s talking about spiritual death." (how Jesus obtained his name tape # 44HO1 side 1)


Copeland repeats his mentor by saying "The death of Jesus Christ was not a physical death alone. If it had been a physical death, Abel would have paid the price for mankind. He was the first man that died because of honoring God and His Word. If it had been a physical death only, it wouldn't have worked! And if He hadn't died spiritually, that body never would have died." (What Happened From the Cross to the Throne, Tape #00-0303)


According to these new revelators Christianity has been mistaken for almost 1900 years. To put the redemption before or after the cross makes this another Gospel. It denies the sufficiency of the sacrifice. It was crucial that Jesus was sacrificed on that day at that hour in that way. If it occurred any other time it would not have been accepted by the Father.If Jesus became a sinner (actually worse to take the very nature of Satan) then he would need redemption. But he couldn't redeem himself since he was no longer the unblemished lamb but sinful. Neither could he redeem any of us. If Jesus actually became sin as claimed then he no longer is an unblemished sacrifice Deut.15:21 tells us if any sacrifice had a fault or blemish it was not accepted.


All the animals chosen for the sin offering were types of Christ, according to Lev. 4:3, it was a bull without defect; Lev. 4:23, a goat without defect; Lev. 4:32, a lamb without defect. They were all carefully inspected for any spot or blemish. In 1 Cor. 5:7, Jesus was the Paschal Lamb. As a substitutional sacrifice in the scapegoat motif the one who offered up the sacrifices would place his hand on the animal, signifying a symbolic transfer of sin and guilt (Lev. 4:4, 24,33) The sacrifice became the covering for the sin, God looked on the blood not the sin itself. Isa. 53:6 "...and the Lord hath laid on Him the iniquity of us all" It was the Father who laid his hand on Christ to be judged in our place. The sacrificial animal did not become sin itself, sin was symbolically charged to it, if it became blemished or in this case sin, it was worthless.


So If Jesus became sin or a demoniac (having the nature of Satan) God could not accept it, he would be a sinful offering. The Bible has a different story 1 Pt.1:19 tells us he was without blemish or defect on the cross. Lev.6:25 tells us the sin offering was most holy before God (not most sinful). Christ did not become sin itself, (2 Cor.5:21)" became" (in the Greek Metonym) means became a sin offering not became sin himself he was a vicarious atonement, he suffered in our place and took our penalty of judgment. In the OT typology the priest would lay his hands on the offering to symbolize the transfer of his sin and guilt. Jesus was the sin bearer , he carried it, not became it.


They replace Jesus saying, "Father, into Thy hands I commend My spirit," With their theology of , "Satan, into your hands I commend My spirit." (temporarily, until he's born again)


When Jesus died he dismissed his own Spirit showing he had control something a mere man or a demon could not. He gave his spirit over to the Father not to Satan. he cried it is finished not it is continued. The veil of the Temple was ripped open immediately showing that God the father accepted his Sons work and it was completed, making the way open to all Heb.10


How can he be forgiven of being sinful in his nature. The faith teachers have the solution but its no better than what has already occurred, it progresses to even worse.


1 Cor. 12:3 Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit. If Christ became sin itself and went to hell to be tortured that means he is accursed. So this proves it is not revelation from the true Spirit of God but another Spirit. Heb.9:14 disagrees with Copelands conversations with God, these revelations are not from the Lord we love and serve but from someone who has a lot less respect.



Here's more from our Modern Gnostics spiritual propaganda. A reborn Jesus in Hell, suffering in Hell, paying our debt in Hell, all from new revelation knowledge.


"Satan and all the demons of hell thought that they had Him bound and they threw a net over Jesus and they dragged Him down to the very pit of hell itself to serve our sentence." (F. Price, Ever Increasing Faith Messenger, Newsletter Crenshaw Christian Centre, Inglewood, CA. June 1980, p.7)


"That Word of the living God went down into that pit of destruction and charged the spirit of Jesus with resurrection power! Suddenly His twisted, death-wracked spirit began to fill out and come back to life. He began to look like something the devil had never seen before." ("The Price of it All," Believer's Voice of Victory (September 1991)


Jesus was not tortured by Satan in hell. First of all Satan isn't in Hell and he has no intention of going there, and he certainly doesn't rule there (maybe they have been listening to too much heavy metal music). Yet he will be confined there with a lot of company. Any demons that are there are under lock and key (chains of darkness) they are not roaming free to torture everyone and check back in for a good nights sleep. Read 2 Pt.2:4 and Jude 6, besides Satan is not in control of Hell Jesus is. The only thing that should go to Hell is this atrocious doctrine of theirs.


So how does Jesus escape the torture of his enemies who now have victory over him?


"He [Jesus] was literally being reborn before the devil's very eyes. He began to flex His spiritual muscles.... Jesus was born again-the firstborn from the dead the Word calls Him-and He whipped the devil in his own backyard. He took everything he had away from him. He took his keys and his authority away from him." (p. 4-6.)


"It is important for us to realize that a born again man defeated Satan....Colossians 1:18 refers to Jesus as the firstborn from the dead....He was the first man to be reborn under the new covenant." K. Copeland, "Jesus our Lord of Glory": 3 )


There is hardly a difference between what Copeland does to this passage and the Jehovah's Witnesses, both twist it beyond recognition. Notice he changes firstborn to reborn. The Greek word for firstborn (prototokos), has nothing to do with a new birth in the spirit but means primacy and pre-eminence in ruling It explains Christ's supremacy over all creation as the first resurrected eternal man as Rev.1:5 states the firstborn from the dead and ruler over the kings of the earth.In col.1:18"the firstborn from the dead , that in all things. He may have preeminence (his rightful place as the sovereign Lord.)


"Why did He (Jesus) need to be begotten, or born? Because He became like we were: separated from God. Because He tasted spiritual death for every man....Jesus was the first person that was ever born again." (K. Hagin, How Jesus Obtained His Name, Tulsa: Rhema)


Jesus is privileged to be the first born of many brethren, and they do mean "born again."


"Jesus ... was raised up a born-again man ... The day I realized that a born-again man had defeated Satan, hell, and death, I got so excited ...!" (Believer's Voice of Victory , September, 1991)


Why would this excite anyone? Well here's the answer . "The Spirit of God spoke to me and He said, ‘Son, realize this. Now follow me in this and don’t let your tradition trip you up.’ He said, ‘Think this way—a twice-born man whipped Satan in his own domain.’ And I threw my Bible down…. I said, ‘What?’ He said, ‘A born-again man defeated Satan, the firstborn of many brethren defeated him.’ He said, ‘You are the very image, the very copy of that one.’ I said, ‘Well now you don’t mean, you couldn’t dare mean, that I could have done the same thing?’ He said, ‘Oh yeah, if you’d had the knowledge of the Word of God that He did, you could’ve done the same thing, ‘cause you’re a reborn man too." (Kenneth Copeland, Substitution and Identification (Kenneth Copeland Ministries, 1989), tape #00-0202, side 2.) Copeland demotes Christ and elevates himself, all that is required is to know the word. But Jesus was the word made flesh! No one can come close to the knowledge and wisdom that was intrinsically in his nature, HE'S GOD!


Benny Hinn can barely contain himself when the same Spirit starts to speak to him on this: "My, you know, whoosh! The Holy Ghost is just showing me some stuff. I’m getting dizzy! I’m telling you the truth …He’s [speaking of Jesus] in the underworld now. God isn’t there, the Holy Ghost isn’t there, and the Bible says He was begotten. Do you know what the word begotten means? It means reborn. Do you want another shocker? Have you been begotten? So was He. Don’t let anyone deceive you. Jesus was reborn. You say, ‘What are you talking about?’…He was reborn. He had to be reborn…If He was not reborn, I could not be reborn, I would never be reborn. How can I face Jesus and say, "Jesus, You went through everything I’ve gone through, except the new birth?" (Benny Hinn, Our Position ‘In Christ,’ Part 1 Orlando Christian Center, 1991)


Hinn agrees with Copeland that Jesus lost his deity became a sinner and needed to have the new birth. Remember this is "his Holy Ghost" telling him this. What this means is that it is the same spirit that heals people. What Spirit do you think this is? Not the true one with lies like this one.


Kenneth Hagin states "He (Jesus) tasted spiritual death for every man. And his spirit and inner man went to hell in my place. Can’t you see that? PHYSICAL DEATH WOULDN’T REMOVE YOUR SINS. He tasted death for every man. He’s talking about spiritual death." (how Jesus obtained his name tape # 44HO1 side 1)


Much like his discipler, Kenneth Copeland also states "If it had been a physical death only, it wouldn't have worked! And if He hadn't died spiritually, that body never would have died." (What Happened From the Cross to the Throne, Tape #00-0303)

In Peter 3:18, Peter states that Christ was "Put to death in the flesh, but quickened (made alive) by the Spirit." This tells us he died in the flesh but was alive in the Spirit. He did not die spiritually and suffer the same fate as sinful man in hell, even temporarily. He didn't lose his deity, God cannot change his nature! This does not mean that He died spiritually and now he is spiritually resurrected, or by the Spirit. It means he died in the body and his body resurrected.

Acts 2:27, 13:35-37 tells us God would not let him see corruption or decay, this is a term for mortality and fallen humanity. He is contrasted to David who saw sin. Christ was separated on the cross for a time and restored before he died.

Acts 2:27 For You will not leave my soul in Hades, nor will You allow Your Holy One to see corruption. Vs.31-32"he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption. "This Jesus God has raised up, of which we are all witnesses." Notice it says in both soul and body. It is this Jesus the apostles preached, this is not true for the new apostles.

To say God died spiritually the way they define it is a new revelation, but not a biblical one. Heb.10:10 says "we are set apart by the offering of Jesus body once for all." Redemption was and is through the blood. Scripture does not point to any event continuing afterward as part of our redemption. There is no salvation apart from His blood sacrifice, without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sins.

So much more could be quoted and said but this is sufficient evidence to make it clear they care little about the historic Christian faith but are leading the Church to another place with another Gospel and another Christ. Your choice is to either follow the truth or men who claim to have new truth. Not much of a choice if you love the Lord.

- http://www.letusreason.org/Wf2.htm

MostHigh:

The guy is pained.

Maybe Hagin is a close relative

shdemidemi:

Are you serious! I guess the apostles ran out of spirituality hence they paid the price with their health and eventually their lives. True?

If you can't respond in the affirmitive, what you call spirituality might not be the same as what the christian faith calls spirituality afterall.

MostHigh:

Oh yes..

As above so below

Whatever is in the spirirt manifests in the flesh

Its never the other way round

Denying this spiritual truth is just plain Ignorance.

DrummaBoy:

We write our position on WoF U say it is rubbish; we quote someone else U say it is hogwash.

What exactly do U want O Bidam

Continue with your bondage to the Law and revelling in worldly
prosperity and demonic spirit manifestations. I am done with U on this forum!

Bidam: You also should continue in your lawlessness.Just to borrow the phrase of mosthigh "child of the little horn"