double post.

olu_kenzo :
We recognise the presence of nairaland.com's most erudite historian-- naptu2.

Shymmex!

PS: naptu2 please bear your mind on the legitimacy of Olumegbon claims at Ajah.

It's similar to the controversy about the origins of Lagos and the controversy about the Ooni of Ife. The Olumegbon is an Idejo, while the Ogunsemo came from Benin. My personal view is that Prince Ogunsemo founded Ajah (on his way from Benin) and Olumegbon was brought in to the town and accommodated by the Baale (Ogunsemo).

But the controversy will continue to rage.

olu_kenzo :


Ben Akabueze is a commissioner in Lagos state, no? if Lagos is liberal enough to appoint a SEner as commissioner, why not a Bini man? Albeit, appointments in the first place should be based on merits and not ethnicity in places as polarised as Lagos.

But to now because of the above say Lagos is a no man's land when all evidence shows otherwise is an affront. And its left to the indigenes, example my mum, fashola, the obanikoros etc, to stand up to such people.

Again bro, this is not a thread such arguments, please open another thread if you really want the issue trashed out.

You will be pulled and pushed by people who want to derail the thread, but please do not succumb. Don't derail the thread. It's better to ignore and continue with the fun, than to spoil the fun.

olu_kenzo :


Ben Akabueze is a commissioner in Lagos state, no? if Lagos is liberal enough to appoint a SEner as commissioner, why not a Bini man? Albeit, appointments in the first place should be based on merits and not ethnicity in places as polarised as Lagos.

But to now because of the above say Lagos is a no man's land when all evidence shows otherwise is an affront. And its left to the indigenes, example my mum, fashola, the obanikoros etc, to stand up to such people.

Again bro, this is not a thread such arguments, please open another thread if you really want the issue trashed out.

As this history thread on Lagos as well as any history of any town will show you, today's INDIGENES are yesterday's (many decades/centuries ago maybe) IMMIGRANTS/SETTLERS.
And those who are "indigenes" may change in another 300-500 years based on demographic trends.
We need to enhance our capacity to see beyond here & now!

naptu2:

It's similar to the controversy about the origins of Lagos and the controversy about the Ooni of Ife. The Olumegbon is an Idejo, while the Ogunsemo came from Benin. My personal view is that Prince Ogunsemo founded Ajah (on his way from Benin) and Olumegbon was brought in to the town and accommodated by the Baale (Ogunsemo).

But the controversy will continue to rage.

The truth as I reliably know it.

Its funny how this kind of controversy has always plagued the sons of oduduwa. Something very similar happened with the obanta at Ijebu-od e.

olu_kenzo :


The truth as I reliably know it.

Its funny how this kind of controversy has always plagued the sons of oduduwa. Something very similar happened with the obanta at Ijebu-od e.

Also Modakeke at Ife after Ooni Akinmoyero gave refuge to the Oyo after the fall of Oyo. Or Alimi at Ilorin.

The bitter truth is that children of settlers/refugees hardly recognize the original benevolence afforded to their fathers. Sometimes, relief should be temporary and very brief.

Katsumoto:

Hahahahaha

The 'Alligator Pepper' war also known as the Owu war was fought between Owu on one side and Ijebu/Ife on the other side. Owu was winning until the Oyos and Egbas joined the Ijebu/Ife. The owus were not originally Egba and during this war, Ikija was the only Egba twon that allied with Owu. Other Egba towns such as Ofa and Oje allied with the Ijebus.

As for the second war you listed, it is not clear to me. It is likely to be the first Iperu war since the Ibadans defeated the Egba after the Egba had conquered Iperu. But you can provide more details to help us identify the particular conflict.

Wo egbon, mo give up jare. at least until I can marshal enough armour to counter your points.

As much as I enjoy those books and journals that recount our history, I also have to pen lines of code daily. The latter, sadly takes the cake for now. I can almost see a diploma in history sometime in the future.

olu_kenzo :


The truth as I reliably know it.

Its funny how this kind of controversy has always plagued the sons of oduduwa. Something very similar happened with the obanta at Ijebu-od e.

The real problem is the absence of WRITTEN records of what happened then and lack of interest in

- anthropological
- archeological
- linguistic

and other scientific research to REASONABLY clear up some of the mix-up in our history.
I suspect however that there might be writings in Arabic, given the exchanges with Fulani traders via Oyo and islamisation of yorubaland before the Europeans arrived.
Such absence and lack of interest is a reflection of our focus on the here & now of what to eat & drink as well as show off to our neighbour without much thought!

Katsumoto:

Also Modakeke at Ife after Ooni Akinmoyero gave refuge to the Oyo after the fall of Oyo. Or Alimi at Ilorin.

The bitter truth is that children of settlers/refugees hardly recognize the original benevolence afforded to their fathers. Sometimes, relief should be temporary and very brief.

Touché. Hence I recognise why the Ekos may be a little circumspect wrt claims on Alausa/Alawusa, and of course Alaba...

odua son: ichidodo the bird,the name of the palace of the oba of lagos is IGA IDUNGARAN. Does this name look like benin.


IGA derives from the Oyo/Ife Yoruba language GAA meaning Royal Home or Palace,IDUN means land, place orsound of while IGANRAN is the Yorubaword for pepper. Iga Idunganran therefore translates to mean the palace built on a pepper farm, Aromire having used the land previously as a farm.

ONE million GBOSA FOR YOU!!!

please stop replying him. its of no use.

anonimi:

The real problem is the absence of WRITTEN records of what happened then and lack of interest in

- anthropological
- archeological
- linguistic

and other scientific research to REASONABLY clear up some of the mix-up in our history.
I suspect however that there might be writings in Arabic, given the exchanges with Fulani traders via Oyo and islamisation of yorubaland before the Europeans arrived.
Such absence and lack of interest is a reflection of our focus on the here & now of what to eat & drink as well as show off to our neighbour without much thought!

But Europeans have been keeping records for centuries and that didn't stop English kings laying claim to the French throne and the subsequent 100 years war that followed the original claim of Edward the third. The fact is that folks will always attempt to claim ownership, no matter how small or ridiculous their claims may be and will wage war to win.

Katsumoto:

Also Modakeke at Ife after Ooni Akinmoyero gave refuge to the Oyo after the fall of Oyo. Or Alimi at Ilorin.

The bitter truth is that children of settlers/refugees hardly recognize the original benevolence afforded to their fathers. Sometimes, relief should be temporary and very brief.

That temporary & brief part may not have been workable then due to rapidly changing power dynamics, treachery & betrayal.
It is also difficult now due to modern human rights treaties.
There are so many people in European and American (north, central & southern) countries whose "ANCESTORS" arrived there one or two centuries ago and are practically INDIGENES of those places.
Those countries have prospered nevertheless while those of us who are so attached to our land and fearful of "settlers" are still lagging far behind!

Katsumoto:

But European have been keeping records for centuries and that didn't stop English kings laying claim to the French throne and the subsequent 100 years war that followed the original claim of Edward the third. The fact is that folks will always attempt to claim ownership, no matter how small or ridiculous their claims may be and will wage war to win.

There will always be wars for diverse reasons with immediate agonies but future benefits.
However the records (even though distorted by the conquering army) will help in reconstituting what happened when those who were not around seek to know.

olu_kenzo :


As much as I enjoy those books and journals that recount our history, I also have to pen lines of code daily. The latter, sadly takes the cake for now. I can almost see a diploma in history sometime in the future.

That would be a nice thing to do.
I imagine there will be opportunies (if only form a passion fulfilment point of view) as our country grows again and there is increasing interest in our history, how we WERE to inspire us into the FUTURE of what we can still achieve.
Best.

anonimi:

That temporary & brief part may not have been workable then due to rapidly changing power dynamics, treachery & betrayal.
It is also difficult now due to modern human rights treaties.
There are so many peopel in European and American (north, central & southern) countries whose "ANCESTORS" arrived there one or two centuries ago and are practically INDIGENES of those places.
Those countries have prospered nevertheless while those of us who are so attached to our land and fearful of "settlers" are still lagging far behind!

First, temporary and brief relief is always workable because one person is stronger and giving succor to the weak/vulnerable.

Second, how can a refugee claim human rights treaties if a landowner refuses entry to the refugee?

Third, you confuse settling done by refugees and that done by conquerors. If I conquer you through war, then my children will remain indigenes/landowners until you drive them out. That's exactly what happened to the Saxons until the Normans arrived in England.

Last, it is always about Land. Don't get it wrong. We are all attached to land. It is what we do with it that separates us.

Katsumoto:

First, temporary and brief relief is always workable because one person is stronger and giving succor to the weak/vulnerable.

Second, how can a refugee claim human rights treaties if a landowner refuses entry to the refugee?

Third, you confuse settling done by refugees and that done by conquerors. If I conquer you through war, then my children will remain indigenes/landowners until you drive them out. That's exactly what happened to the Saxons until the Normans arrived in England.

Last, it is always about Land. Don't get it wrong. We are all attached to land. It is what we do with it that separates us.

Always. From the Roman conquest to the Alamo to the Ajah-ilaje issues. Land.

@olu_kenzo and Kats

The only one I can recall right now is the alligator pepper war that lead to the sacking of the egbas by the joint forces of the ijebus and the oyos.

There was another war whence the Ijebus sold weapons gotten from the coast in Lagos to the otherside. Hence the song "durodemi kin bo sokoto o, egba n salo". It was a joint war also, and the egbas were soundly beaten.

I'll add more subsequently. [/quote]


Both of you are right to some extent. To get the right perspective of Ijebu / Egba conflicts one need to read. “Iwe Itan Egba” by Ajisafe.
The war that led to the movement of the Egbas from their original homestead was started by the Ijebus supported by the Ibadans.
However, the Egbas were not fighting as a united force. They were staying far apart. The war actually started with the siege of Owu without the support of other Egbas after aligator pepper and salt incidence at a market involving Owus and Ijebus.
The Egbas had their separate towns with their kings and only see the Owus as cousins. That is why other kings in Abeokuta do not see Alake as a superior but equal who was made paramount by the British. Egba ko loluwa gbogbo won lonse bi oba. The Owu war brought them together.
Egbas were subgated under the Ibadans with the Ijebus kidnapping and selling the Egba kids as slaves. Egbas decided to move in batches to present day Abeokuta. The first batch stayed under the Olumo Rock .( Olufimo ie the lord has ended it here) They became very strong as a united force in Abeokuta and took in other non Egba refugees like Ijaiye and Iberekodo

Katsumoto:

First, temporary and brief relief is always workable because one person is stronger and giving succor to the weak/vulnerable.

That is why I talked about CHANGING power dynamics between the (two?) groups earlier as well as treachery & betrayal from within.

Second, how can a refugee claim human rights treaties if a landowner refuses entry to the refugee?

That refusal is not always so straightforward. There is a convention that most countries signed up to:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convention_relating_to_the_Status_of_Refugees

Third, you confuse settling done by refugees and that done by conquerors. If I conquer you through war, then my children will remain indigenes/landowners until you drive them out.

and/or kill them all, which was quasi-possible maybe till 100-200 years ago but not any longer as it is now considered genocide.
The conqueror group's population may also grow so much as to overwhelm that of the "remaining indigenes/landowners" such that while it is clear from history their status, the de facto relationship/status will be otherwise. I am thinking of American Indians and white Americans here. I understand the Indians came X,000/ X million years ago through the North Pole corridor when the continents were still linked by some tiny land stretch....
Something slightly similar seems to have happened in Ilorin between yorubas & fulanis and some of the northern cities between hausas & fulanis.

Benin people are closely related to the yorubas in that they have majority of yoruba heritage. Their king who is a descendant of OODUA is called OBA of benin (oba is a yoruba word for king). The old yoruba gods are worshipped by them.

Anonimi....

I was initially skeptical about your presence here...but not longer...obviously you are interested in a genuine debate...

Some may not agree with your stand ....but you've added value to the thread.

olu_kenzo :


They're virtually inseparable. Healthy competition is okay if it does not go beyond that. I love my egba people and their accent. I schooled there, infact.

I couldn't have said it better. My people say: "odo ttoba gbabgbe orisun re yio gbe!"

Never forget your origin. I'm the. son of warriors, merchants, great arts men, people who stood toe to toe with the whitemen some of us now cower in front of. Ranti omo eni to iwo n se.

please bring my nephews and nieces home. E kabo o!

honestly am loving this thread. olu_Kenzo please throw more light on the saying "IJEBU OMO ALAREN"

Segeggs: Benin people are closely related to the yorubas in that they have majority of yoruba heritage. Their king who is a descendant of OODUA is called OBA of benin (oba is a yoruba word for king). The old yoruba gods are worshipped by them.

we are cousins that's an established fact. in fact YORUBA used to be the official language of the benin kingdom at a time. so what's the fuzz about?

hitman2911: @olu_kenzo and Kats

The only one I can recall right now is the alligator pepper war that lead to the sacking of the egbas by the joint forces of the ijebus and the oyos.

There was another war whence the Ijebus sold weapons gotten from the coast in Lagos to the otherside. Hence the song "durodemi kin bo sokoto o, egba n salo". It was a joint war also, and the egbas were soundly beaten.

I'll add more subsequently.


Both of you are right to some extent. To get the right perspective of Ijebu / Egba conflicts one need to read. “Iwe Itan Egba” by Ajisafe.
The war that led to the movement of the Egbas from their original homestead was started by the Ijebus supported by the Ibadans.
However, the Egbas were not fighting as a united force. They were staying far apart. The war actually started with the siege of Owu without the support of other Egbas after aligator pepper and salt incidence at a market involving Owus and Ijebus.
The Egbas had their separate towns with their kings and only see the Owus as cousins. That is why other kings in Abeokuta do not see Alake as a superior but equal who was made paramount by the British. Egba ko loluwa gbogbo won lonse bi oba. The Owu war brought them together.
Egbas were subgated under the Ibadans with the Ijebus kidnapping and selling the Egba kids as slaves. Egbas decided to move in batches to present day Abeokuta. The first batch stayed under the Olumo Rock .( Olufimo ie the lord has ended it here) They became very strong as a united force in Abeokuta and took in other non Egba refugees like Ijaiye and Iberekodo

You have mixed up different events.

First, as I stated earlier, the Owu conflict was between Owu and Ijebu/Ife. The Egba were on the Ijebu side except for Ikija which shared the same fate as Owu. After the Owu war, the Oyo refugees under Maye of Ife battled Gbagura (one of the four Egba Clans). The defeat of the Gbagura and the fall of Oorun, led to the sacking of other Egba towns such as Ijaiye-maja, Kosi-kosi and Ibadan. Ibadan was originally an Egba town. After the Egba deserted Ibadan, the Oyo refugees settled at Ibadan under Lakanle. So it isn't accurate to state that the Ibadans subjugated the Egbas.

Second, you are correct when you stated that the Egba arrived at Abeokuta at different times. Egba Agbeyin arrived first under Sodeke, followed by Gbagura under Ojo Gbagura, and Oke suna under Olunloye. Olufakun led the Owu last to Abeokuta.

Enjoying the big kats and olu_kenzo.

And big ups to naptu2!!

Damn!! I need to read more and memorise those names.

Egba's were definitely born to fight and I dare say they were probably the most vicious of all the Yoruba groups after the fall of Oyo. Err...the Ibadan's too. As for the Ijebu's, we never really had a strong army back then because the kingdoms were scattered everywhere, however, the only thing we had in common was the lordship of the Awujale. We were just getting money and enjoying life - no stress - and the moat provided the defence we needed.

Katsumoto:

You have mixed up different events.

First, as I stated earlier, the Owu conflict was between Owu and Ijebu/Ife. The Egba were on the Ijebu side except for Ikija which shared the same fate as Owu. After the Owu war, the Oyo refugees under Maye of Ife battled Gbagura (one of the four Egba Clans). The defeat of the Gbagura and the fall of Oorun, led to the sacking of other Egba towns such as Ijaiye-maja, Kosi-kosi and Ibadan. Ibadan was originally an Egba town. After the Egba deserted Ibadan, the Oyo refugees settled at Ibadan under Lakanle. So it isn't accurate to state that the Ibadans subjugated the Egbas.

Second, you are correct when you stated that the Egba arrived at Abeokuta at different times. Egba Agbeyin arrived first under Sodeke, followed by Gbagura under Ojo Gbagura, and Oke suna under Olunloye. Olufakun led the Owu last to Abeokuta.

Good rejoinder. We are all learning. I actually based my write up on the Iwe Itan Egba which was an official Egba history.
From the book, the Egbas have to take permission and deceived Maye in order to leave the Ibadan axis. They have to do it in batches as a form of survival technique. That means they were under a form of subjection.

Never knew that Egbas were the original inhabitants of Ibadan except Ojoo which belongs to Egba Gbagura and was the basis used in making MKO Abiola, Basorun Ibadan since he was from Egba Gbagura. I understand that the Egbas made up about 25% of Ibadan.

A real educative thread.

odua son: For your stupid and idiotic mind now u don yab finish seems u're suffering selective amnesia,this she goat was literally turning a blind eye to the spurious claims her deluded ibo brothers were throwing around the thread,screaming lagos is our papa land,even after cold hard facts are been thrown to their faces.
And if i may also ask what have u contributed to the thread other displaying your sheer stupidity and"I must comment by force policy".
Ode raise to power 2.

Don't mind d viLLage gaL. She aLways thinks she's making sense. Ogumagala girl.

I said earlier in the thread that accounts of events such as this are usually very subjective.

An example of such accounts is this. Notice the how the writer used flowery words to describe Egbas wins and commits argumentum ad misericordiam while sparing few of the subsequent sentences. His account is not entirely false IMHO, just a little subjective. As my people say: "ko si eni to ma ko ebe ti o ni ko si odo ara re"

ABEOKUTA WAS FOUNDED in 1830 after the intertribal wars
ravaged refugees in Egba forest from their original homes between
1817 and 1830. The name of the town "ABEOKUTA" was derived
from the protection which the fleeing settlers sought under the
Olumo Rock, now a tourist center in the town. Abeokuta means 'the
refugees under a rock', signifying the protection which the Olumo
Rock offered the refugees from possible attacks. The first and major
of these series of internecine wars was the one which broke out as a
result of an incident at Apomu Market, now in the Irewolede Local
Government area of Osun State. In 1821, an Owu man who sold
alligator peppers was at Apomu Market selling his wares. He laid
them out in piles containing 200 peppers each. An Ijebu woman
came to the market and purchased a pile. She did not verify on the
spot the correctness of the number of peppers in the pile she
selected, but found it convenient to do counting on reaching home.
She claimed to find only 199, which meant that one was missing. The Ijebu woman went back to the market to accost the Owu man
over the one pepper by which the portion she selected was less, and
demanded restitution of the missing one. But the Owu man objected,
maintaining that he was sure of his own count. The argument over
this single pepper developed into an open quarrell between the two
of them. Later, it blew out into a fracas in which people of Owu and
Ijebu clans in the market took sides with their kith and kin. Sectional
sentiments soon became whipped up into open confrontation in
which a life was lost and several people were injured.
Each side went home to narrate to their Oba, chiefs and townsmen
the events of the day. As would be expected, each group took
umbrage over what it considered to be a raw deal from the
opposing camp. Within a matter of days, the fight over a single
alligator pepper had resulted into a total war in which the Owu and
Ijebu peoples threw caution to the winds and restored to open arms.
Before this incident, the people of Ife had suffered defeats in the
hands of the Owu people, and the Ijebu had similarly been routed by
the Owu in a war fought over the slave trading. Now, both the Ife and Ijebu saw the opportunity to settle scores with the Owu by joining forces to face the Owu. Even the remnants of the Oyo forces, just returned from their mission to repel a Fulani invasion, and who were by then mere lay-about, teamed up with Ife and Ijebu forces. The combined attack of the Ife-Ijebu-Oyo coalition forced the Owu homeland to fall after a long siege, and the events following this catastrophe gave birth to the founding of Abeokuta a few years after.
The fall of the Owu homeland was quickly followed by the fall of
some other Egba towns, each being sacked in succession by the
alliance of the Ife-Ijebu-Oyo forces.

www.egbaprogressive.org/history_of_abeokuta.php

...and the Egbas become subject to the ijebus for a while...

hitman2911:


Good rejoinder. We are all learning. I actually based my write up on the Iwe Itan Egba which was an official Egba history.
From the book, the Egbas have to take permission and deceived Maye in order to leave the Ibadan axis. They have to do it in batches as a form of survival technique. That means they were under a form of subjection.

Never knew that Egbas were the original inhabitants of Ibadan except Ojoo which belongs to Egba Gbagura and was the basis used in making MKO Abiola, Basorun Ibadan since he was from Egba Gbagura. I understand that the Egbas made up about 25% of Ibadan.

A real educative thread.

Very nice and educative indeed.

Maye was away with the Oyos in warring against the Gbaguras. I believe we are in agreement that the Egba had to escape from Ibadan. And probably subjugated or subservient to Maye and the Oyo refugees. They didn't leave Ibadan in batches. The Egba were scattered in different towns and that's why they arrived in Abeokuta at different times. Lamodi, an Egba chief killed an Ife chieftain and in the ensuing commotion, Lamodi was also killed. But the Egbas decided to flee Ibadan anyway before the return of Maye. But many egba remained in Ibadan anyway such as Efunsetan Aniwura.

@pa kats please how can i get a hard copy of rev samuel johnsons book it seems its out of stock 'cos i have searched and searched for it

olu_kenzo :
I said earlier in the thread that accounts of events such as this are usually very subjective.

An example of such accounts is this. Notice the how the writer used flowery words to describe Egbas wins and commits argumentum ad misericordiam while sparing few of the subsequent sentences. His account is not entirely false IMHO, just a little subjective. As my people say: "ko si eni to ma ko ebe ti o ni ko si odo ara re"



...and the Egbas become subject to the ijebus for a while...

Hahahahahahaha

How did the Egbas become subject to the Ijebus for a while? What is a while?

olu_kenzo :
I said earlier in the thread that accounts of events such as this are usually very subjective.

An example of such accounts is this. Notice the how the writer used flowery words to describe Egbas wins and commits argumentum ad misericordiam while sparing few of the subsequent sentences. His account is not entirely false IMHO, just a little subjective. As my people say: "ko si eni to ma ko ebe ti o ni ko si odo ara re"

...and the Egbas become subject to the ijebus for a while...

I read the link you posted like a month ago. Anyway, you need allow the assertion that the Egba's were subject to the Ijebu's. If the Egba's revolted against decline Oyo empire and defeated Dahomey several times - what makes you think they were subject to the Ijebu's who were never imperialistic and had a separate and isolated kingdom surrounded by a moat?

I know we Ijebu's are proud, astute and tactical people but I doubt we had the military might of the Egba's. We were more of merchants and merry-makers than anything else. Yet we had great warriors and all the other surrounding kingdoms/empires including Oyo and Benin respected our territorial integrity - however Ijebu's only controlled Ijebu land. If we were imperial, the Eko crown should have been ours because we're the closest to Eko and we settled there probably after the Awori's.

lakhadimar: @pa kats please how can i get a hard copy of rev samuel johnsons book it seems its out of stock 'cos i have searched and searched for it

Pa kats ! ! ! Who is Pa kats? When did I reveal my age or age group? My age will shock you.

Try Amazon for a copy.