davidylan:

Empty rhetoric. Paul knew of a certain thing called faith and yet still recommended some medicine for Timothy's stomach problems. A woman with an ectopic pregnancy needs immediate medical attention, not some ignorant mule playing away her life in the name of grossly misplaced "faith".

Murder is a sin... perhaps you also hate wars and abhor the death penalty? Afterall i'm sure you have faith that we should just let boko haram run riot on the nation and pray them away no?

Should babies who have congenital malformations that are incompatible with life (like babies with Tay-Sachs syndrome who normally never live beyond the age of 4) be left to develop to term?

striktlymi: Now I am with my laptop and ready to do this...

Before we continue, could you provide evidence for the following figures:

Image123:

Caring one, who chose not to answer my question but called it an empty rhetoric. If you ever had to choose between sin and death, which would you choose?
i use medicine and tell folks to use medicine. i have not said anything against using medicine. i asked if you know about faith, and you started all these epistle. Hope you are praying for me, as regards that prayer request that you gave me? Caring one, life itself is a risk, aborting babies is a risk, not aborting them is a risk. There is a level of faith that does not respond to what the doctor has to say, do you believe that, doc?

striktlymi:

Abortion is NEVER the only course of action. Can murder be the ONLY cause of action in any case? If yes, one
example would do...

Direct answer: The decision on what to do lies with the mother.

She has a number of options which excludes abortion.

Anyways, that argument has been refuted a number of times. A two year old is not a fully developed human being. Would it then be justifiable for a mother to sacrifice the two year old simply because she has more experinece than it does? Or the experience level is not the same? Of course not!

No ones life is greater, better or more valuable aka important than anothers. Every life is precious and should be preserved withing reasonable measures. The life of a zygote is no better than that of a one year old and it is certainly not less precious than the life of the mother.

davidylan:

I'm sorry, but in the case of ectopic pregnancies, [size=24pt]i will choose to abort the fetus to save the life of my wife rather than send her to an untimely death all in the name of "level of faith"[/size] ... particularly when the fetus is not going to be viable anyway.

I asked earlier and you ignored it... does your concern for life include abolition of all wars and the death penalty for murderers?

leggo:
i wish i could say the same to you, but we'll need a dna test..

davidylan:

I'm sorry, but in the case of ectopic pregnancies, i will choose to abort the fetus to save the life of my wife rather than send her to an untimely death all in the name of "level of faith"... particularly when the fetus is not going to be viable anyway.

I asked earlier and you ignored it... does your concern for life include abolition of all wars and the death penalty for murderers?

PAGAN 9JA:



you can tell the same to jesus!

leggo:
tell him yourself..

PAGAN 9JA:


[img]http://media2./media/KNqrW629RqGPu/giphy.gif[/img]

Image123:

You did not answer my questions, David. This your question, kindly make it clearer, thanks. BTW, you did not answer my questions.

leggo:
tell that to ya gods.. especially the faggs sango and orayan..

davidylan:

I answered your question TWICE. You asked that in the context of abortion (in cases where it is detrimental to the woman's life) and i very clearly chose abortion over your idea of "level of faith". Besides, i think your "question" is quite deceptive. Should a christian soldier refuse his commanders orders to shoot an enemy in favor of "level of faith"?

I wonder why you keep dodging the questions i asked by pretending i havent answered yours. That is the type of slimy deception i expect from atheists and not you.

My questions have been VERY CLEAR - since you clearly oppose abortion regardless of circumstance, does this concern for life extend to wars and the death penalty... all of which involve murder on a much larger scale? I cant imagine that any body over the age of 5 cannot understand that question.

Image123:
David, David, have some patience oh, caring one. i said ou should clarify your questions for i do not understand them well. What has wars got to do with abortion? i don't want war BTW. Also, jdgement is not murder.

Image123:
My questions.
Are you saying that you oppose abortion except in the case of ectopic pregnancies?

Image123:
If you ever had to choose between sin and death, which would you choose?

Image123:
i asked if you know about faith, if you believe there are certain levels of faith that are more than doctors' report?
i asked if you are praying for me, as regards that
prayer request that you gave me?

OLAADEGBU:

Educate yourself with this videoclip and stop basking in ignorance.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7y2KsU_dhwI

davidylan:

Laughable. Even if it means both twins will die since they both share an organ (like the heart or liver) which is grossly inadequate to sustain both lives? I marvel at how people can pound their fist on a table to declare something acceptable or not based solely on their own emotions.

davidylan:
Perhaps we should read from the experts directly - this from the US national library of medicine website on ectopic pregnancies - Ectopic pregnancy is life-threatening. The pregnancy cannot continue to birth (term). The developing cells must be removed to save the mother's life.
Perhaps you know something you might like to share with US doctors? Quite sick of all the fist pounding rhetoric from the largely ignorant.

davidylan:
I may not have gone through the pain, but i have known quite a few who have. The question is, have you? Perhaps you should look into their eyes and tell them about how much you value the life of the unborn?



Last i checked, i have not been arguing about frivolous abortions which i am against. The point has been about abortions when the life of the mother is at risk. Do you have any idea what a ruptured fallopian tube from an ectopic pregnancy does to a woman?

davidylan:

Totally confused here.

davidylan:
You are either confused or dishonestly conflating issues here.

davidylan:
What does the above in highlights mean? How do you "correct the problem" of a fetus attached to the liver or fallopian tube for example?

davidylan:

Allow me to respond on behalf of toluene12 before he comes on board...

toluene12:
95% of ectopic pregnancies implant in the fallopian tubes, the remaining 5% implant in the ovary, peritoneum or other abdominal organ.

According to page 487 of Clinical Gynecologic Endocrinology and Infertility 6th ed (Leon Speroff, Robert H. Glass, Nathan G. Kase, 1999 Lippincott Williams & Wilkins), tubal (fallopian) implantation represents 99% of all ectopic pregnancies, 1.4% occur in the abdomen, 0.2% in the ovaries and 0.2% in the cervix.

toluene12:
there've been only 4 recorded cases of successful abdominal pregnancy worldwide

All 4 cases are presented, with citations, in the wikipedia entry for ectopic pregnancies.

toluene12:
The odds of such a pregnancy occurring and progressing to a point of being viable are less than 1 in a million.

I was unable to locate a source for this. However, there is no reported case of a viable fetus from a tubal ectopic pregnancy (accounting for 99% of all cases of ectopic pregnancies). Only 4 have been recorded for abdominal pregnancies... which accounts for only 1.2% of all ectopic pregnancies.

It should be noted that in all gynecological textbooks... the first line treatment for ectopic pregnancies (with no ruptures) is methotrexate. You should ensure you know your subject first before jumping into a debate. I thought that was the first rule of informed debate.

PAGAN 9JA:


YES! in the case of mother about to undergo serious miscarriage and internal bleeding.

PAGAN 9JA:

Dont ask me joor! Ask the docs!

PAGAN 9JA:

Good! Atleast you agree the decision lies with the mother.

PAGAN 9JA:

Now how does that exclude abortion, when abortion is the only way for her to survive as in the case of Mrs Savitha Halappanavar?

PAGAN 9JA:

Why the heck are you diverting and bringing in a 2 yr old?

We are talking about ABORTION of infants/embryos, not murder of kids.

PAGAN 9JA:

Every life is precious? Then stop eating meat. If you do that, then I will agree with you.

can you?

The life of a cell and a red blood cell is also no better than a life of a mother then, according to your conclusion.

OLAADEGBU:

Can you imagine how many babies this 180movie has saved?

POPE II: any argument should have stopped after this video. How can any sane person abort or defend abortion?

striktlymi:

I am sure toluene12 can speak for him/herself.

striktlymi:
The case of tubal ectopic pregnancy have been discussed already. The problem with tubal ectopic pregnancy is the fallopian tube. The only remedy which does not entail abortion is removing the faulty tube.

For non-tubal ectopic pregnancies, the baby may be attached to a pathological organ which is life threatening to the lady. In this case, it is appropriate for the lady to have such organs removed just as it would be removed if there is no child attached to it. This too does not include the direct killing of the child.

However, for the other cases where the organ in question where the Child is attached to cannot be removed without necessarily killing the mother, the Child should be allowed to grow and let nature take its course. This is so far as the fetus is viable.

davidylan:

Those were BASIC FACTS a 10-yr old could easily pull up from the web. That you didnt know is further indictment that too many people are contributing on topics where they have not the first clue about what they are defending or talking about. Toluene12 wasnt stating some sacred facts.

davidylan:
I was unable to locate a source

striktlymi:

Oh really??

That means you are better off debating with peeps less than ten years old considering that you admittedly can't do what a ten year old can:



Anyways, like I said, Toluene12 can speak for him/herself.


PS: My debate with you is over.

OLAADEGBU:

Can you imagine how many babies this 180movie has saved?

Image123:

Great one from Ray. Always an inspiration, thanks for sharing Ola.

davidylan:

Nah c'mon lets be honest here. What have wars to do with abortion? Is that a serious question? lol abortion is murder (as you say)... last i checked, war is committing willful mass murder. Perhaps now you have a better idea how they are connected now? Yes you do not want war, but are you as vociferously against war as you are against abortion? Do you consider soldiers to be sinners as you consider women who commit abortion even when it is to save their lives?

Judgement may not be murder but capital punishment IS murder... i get tired of folks who want to worm their way out of uncomfortable positions by playing semantics with words. Do you or do you not consider capital punishment to be willfully taking a life similar to what happens with abortion?

I have been very clear that abortion should only be permitted in cases where the pregnancy is detrimental to the life of the mother... ectopic pregnancies and rape of a minor are two clear examples.

In the context of the topic (your question is worded deceptively), i choose abortion over certain death to the woman - that is the THIRD time i am having to answer that question.

Please enough of this gullible nonsense. When you have cancer you go to the hospital for help not sit on your hands quibbling about "levels of faith". Despite our higher "level of faith", nigerians have a much shorter lifespan than the japanese.
I believe in prayer of faith, i also believe God gave us medicine to be able to take informed decision such as the need to terminate ectopic pregnancies when it is CLEAR that the fetus will not be viable and will most likely lead to the death of the mother.

Image123: Oga strikly, i dey hail oh. Happy New Yearrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr and well done sir.

Image123:

i asked for patience na. You are clearer now. i don't like to assume for people or put them in a particular worldview that they may not actually belong to. That's why i was cautious and asking for clarifications. abortion is murder (as you say), indeed as i say. i guess you are not able to say? If there is a thread supporting war here on NL, i do not mind being vociferous(whatever that means) against it. You seem to be over-assuming things. Not all soldiers are at war or go to war, why do you generalise them? If soldiers commit sin, they are sinners.

Image123:
Capital punishment is not murder. Murder is a crime and illegal, capital punishment is for someone convicted of committing a crime punishable by capital punishment. i guess to you, once it comes out from the hen, its the same thing, shit or egg.

Image123:
i'm sorry you were not clear to me, wise one. When i'm not clear about something, i try to ask questions. Forgive me. So, you oppose abortion except in the case of ectopic pregnancies and in cases where the pregnancy is detrimental to the life of the mother?

Image123:
you are not answering my question. You are answering what you think is/should be my question. Here is my question again, If you ever had to choose between sin and death, which would you choose?
Except you equate abortion to be sin. By the way, ectopic pregnancy is not certain death, you showed us that some people survived it?

Image123:
Nna gullible nonsense? i don suffer oh. Oga David, caring one. Please, let not your wrath be turned against me, for i do not recall being the cause of your wrath. i'm not against going to the hospital or using medicine. i thought i even said that already? i did not mention anybody or nation's higher levels of faith. i do not have such stats in my possession. There are certain levels of faith that are more than doctors' reports. There is what is still called miracle. There are humans still, who against hope believe in hope. They are called believers, evidently i think. Prayers do work, sorry, i have seen prayer work, and i trust you have too. i know you know so much doc, but i know that prayers work, and that faith is the evidence of things not seen. i do not think that is gullible nonsense. You cannot say that it is clear that a fetus will not be viable, when you gave us link that there are some people that gave birth with this same ectopic thing. What if they had aborted? Now, we have a very low percentage of pregnancies with the ectopic condition, so do not complain of the live birth cases being about less than 2% of all ectopic pregnancies.

Image123:
i asked if you are praying for me, as regards that prayer request that you gave me? Do you not care enough to pray for me? i covet your prayers, that was why i asked that you pray for me. You've taken time out of your very busied schedule of not contributing in this section, to teach us about ectopic pregnancies. Kindly take sometime to pray for me as regards that request, thanks.