striktlymi:

Two things:

1) It is quite rare (if any) to see an animal kill its own young at birth. What we have for the most part is see some sought of maternal instinct kick in, even with the most deadliest of predators when it comes to child birth and taking care of their young ones.

Infanticides is a common occurrence in the wild but this occurrence is basically from other mature members of the same specie and not necessarily from the mother. Your case above cannot be substituted for abortion because abortion involves a mother taking the life of her child.

2) Animals act on instincts for the most part and they do not have the ability to think like humans do, hence they can be excused for some actions man cannot be excused for because nature provided man with the ability to discern a whole lot of things.

.

Mother Crocodiles kill their weak young ones by eating them
Baby Hyenas and wild dogs fight each other immediately after birth the weak ones are killed sometimes by their mother, most cases here only 1 out of 6 is left alive



Animals have mother instincts as much as humans but when the mother sees no chance for the child making it in life, it's better to end it before it begins because that child could hate life later

Kay 17: @striklymtl

But you don't think the sperm cells are persons?!

Sperm cells can never develop into human beings.

Conception yields the zygote. A developing human being.(Are you not a developing human being).

Now when is it right to kill a developing human being in the womb?

Kay 17: @striklymtl

But you don't think the sperm cells are persons?!

Not a person! Till it fuses with an ovum. Go back to s.s1

FrancisTony: Not a person! Till it fuses with an ovum. Go back to s.s1

Joshthefirst:

Sperm cells can never develop into human beings.

Conception yields the zygote. A developing human being.(Are you not a developing human being).

Now when is it right to kill a developing human being in the womb?

Nevertheless sperm cells are human same goes with the ova.

Kay 17:


Nevertheless sperm cells are human same goes with the ova.

choi.

Kay 17: @striklymtl

But you don't think the sperm cells are persons?!

No I don't think so for a very good reason...sperm cells possess life but this life is not human, either in part or in whole. Zygotes on the other hand possess the one characteristic that defines every human being...and that is, human life.

A point of note is that zygotes do not develop into human beings because whatever possesses human life is human, the formative stage of that individual has very little role to play here.

So whatever argument I put forth today or in the future is directed at safeguarding what makes us all humans: HUMAN LIFE!!! Abortion is wrong because it deprives an individual of what defines us all: 'HUMAN LIFE'!!!

OlaoChi:

Mother Crocodiles kill their weak young ones by eating them
Baby Hyenas and wild dogs fight each other immediately after birth the weak ones are killed sometimes by their mother, most cases here only 1 out of 6 is left alive

The above is one of the rare cases I mentioned.

OlaoChi:
Animals have mother instincts as much as humans but when the mother sees no chance for the child making it in life, it's better to end it before it begins because that child could hate life later

While the above is an act guided by instinct. I already talked about that in my post to Pagan 9ja.

OLAADEGBU:

Thanks to the likes of Mary Sclessor that brought the light of Christ to the darkness in places like Nigeria.

How has the light of christ helped in developing Nigeria and made it a better place? What is this foooool saying?. . .

striktlymi:

No I don't think so for a very good reason...sperm cells possess life but this life is not human, either in part or in whole. Zygotes on the other hand possess the one characteristic that defines every human being...and that is, human life.

A point of note is that zygotes do not develop into human beings because whatever possesses human life is human, the formative stage of that individual has very little role to play here.

So whatever argument I put forth today or in the future is directed at safeguarding what makes us all humans: HUMAN LIFE!!! Abortion is wrong because it deprives an individual of what defines us all: 'HUMAN LIFE'!!!

I don't especially agree with you that the sperm cells and eggs aren't human, you seem to believe without justification that from conception human life springs out while the eggs and sperm are alien!

Since the eggs and sperm are of human biology they are therefore human.

Kay 17:

I don't especially agree with you that the sperm cells and eggs aren't human, you seem to believe without justification that from conception human life springs out while the eggs and sperm are alien!

Since the eggs and sperm are of human biology they are therefore human.

Nah...

If I want to tell you what I believe, I will most definitely tell a 'tale' about how at conception, each zygote has a unique soul from God but I stuck to what we can easily ascertain via logical reasoning.

I made mention of two things actually:

1) That a sperm cell, though alive in its own rights but the life it possesses is not human.

2) The zygote has life which is human.

The evidence I put forth for both statements is gotten from observation basically. Sperm cells do not develop to become adult humans no matter the length of time they are alive but on the other hand zygotes do.

Anyways, you seem to be the one arguing based on what you believe. You made a statement that sperm cells are humans but provided no backing for that statement.

Note: Saying sperm cells are a part of the human biology, hence they are humans does not back up your claim because we can equally say that the toe is a part of our biology, hence toes are humans.

striktlymi:

Can you give one example of these 'dire circumstances?

For example, when the life of the mother is at risk. Havent you heard of the world famous case of Mrs. Savita Halappanavar, a South Indian living in Ireland who was denied abortion due to its strict catholic laws, as a result of which, she died of multiple organ failure, leading to worldwide protests against Ireland's christian abortion laws

Read more: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-20321741
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Savita_Halappanavar

Two things:

1) It is quite rare (if any) to see an animal kill its own young at birth. What we have for the most part is see some sought of maternal instinct kick in, even with the most deadliest of predators when it comes to child birth and taking care of their young ones.

Infanticides is a common occurrence in the wild but this occurrence is basically from other mature members of the same specie and not necessarily from the mother. Your case above cannot be substituted for abortion because abortion involves a mother taking the life of her child.

2) Animals act on instincts for the most part and they do not have the ability to think like humans do, hence they can be excused for some actions man cannot be excused for because nature provided man with the ability to discern a whole lot of things.

BullSHYT imho. you are just twisting it to suit your needs.

1) It is very common for cats, dogs , etc., to kill and eat the weakest of their young after childbirth. Usually the mother will be very hungry due to the labour ordeal. She will then pick out the weakling or crippled (if available) young one and eat it.

2)Another bullshyt. You cant generalie all animals. Not all animals act ONLY on instinct. I think this is some "man-supremacist" ideology speqing from the bible. As far as I know, dogs, cats, apes, etc., dont act solely on instinct. If you owned animals you will know. They can actually think, behave, display feelings, etc. Though their instinct are strong at the same time. It all depends upon the animal in question. I hate when humans generalize all animals and treat them as separate from humans. We humans are animals too, albeit advanced in some areas, while being deficient in others. (Mynd_44 I did not mean this as an insult. Im discussing science. )

...and how do you know that I have no disabled person? What makes you think that I am not disabled myself?

I used my 6th sense.

Show me one scriptural reference I have given so far and tell me who is being emotional.

I assumed that your attitude is based on biblical teachings, since you didnt give me any proper explanation to your conclusion. Next time please explain and dont just make statements.

Joshthefirst: I believe you should ask by what standards should societal rules be made?


If I was in germany during the time of the holocaust, submitting to their rules would mean considering myself as less than human and allowing myself to be discriminated against and killed.

Germany is not a tribal society. its original laws have been fvced up after the advent of christianity.

striktlymi:

In the context of murder.

This is not murder. murder can be done for good reasons too btw.

OlaoChi:

Every society has it's own rules if you don't like it you migrate

That makes sense too.

However it applies only in the case where the original laws of the land are upheld, and have not been uprooted by foreign laws.

Joshthefirst: that is a lie. A big lie. A baby is not human until it is born? Nonsense.

That's what people said about slaves and what hitler said about jews. That they weren't human.

This is going out of context. What Olaochi implied was that the baby is not yet fully developed, both mentally and even physically.

PAGAN 9JA:




This is going out of context. What Olaochi implied was that the baby is not yet fully developed, both mentally and even physically.

so we should kill it? And eat it? Because it is not yet fully developed to scream for its life and fight for its right to live? Are you fully developed mentally? Do you value human life?

PAGAN 9JA:


Germany is not a tribal society. its original laws have been fvced up after the advent of christianity.

this is pure bias against christianity and a blatant lie.

During the time of hitler and the holocaust, about 11 million people were killed, including 6 million jews. And it was legal, according to the laws of germany. Infact, hitler was anti-christian.

Joshthefirst: so we should kill it? And eat it? Because it is not yet fully developed to scream for its life and fight for its right to live? Are you fully developed mentally? Do you value human life?

Its not really killings. Its just abortion. You can call it killing if you want to.

Doesnt change the fact that it is necessary under many circumstances.

Yes I am.

No I don't.

what is so valuable about human life? THe amount of destruction we cause to the environment?
I think this is a fundamental question that needs to be answered.

this is pure bias against christianity and a blatant lie.

During the time of hitler and the holocaust, about 11 million people were killed, including 6 million jews. And it was legal, according to the laws of germany. Infact, hitler was anti-christian.

You are a blatant lie yourself!

It is a well-known fact that the christian church in europe was involved in the purgatory and annihilation of jews since Medieval times.
This bias is due to the fact that christians believe the Jewish Sarheddin had a major had in jesus' death.


HItler was a true christian. Hitler remained a formal member of the Catholic church until his death, and even ordered his chief associates to remain members.

In 1922, a decade before his ascension to power, Hitler stated before a crowd in Munich:

My feeling as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded only by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was his fight against the Jewish poison. Today, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed his blood upon the Cross. As a Christian, I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice."


HItler had christian roots , which is what initially drove him to the acts, though later on in life, he became indifferent to christianity.


Hitler held strong faith in all his convictions. He justified his fight for the German people and against Jews by using Godly and Biblical reasoning. Indeed, one of his most revealing statements makes this quite clear:

"Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord."

Although Hitler did not practice religion in a churchly sense, he certainly believed in the Bible's God. Raised as Catholic he went to a monastery school and, interestingly, walked everyday past a stone arch which was carved the monastery's coat of arms which included a swastika. As a young boy, Hitler's most ardent goal was to become a priest. Much of his philosophy came from the Bible, and more influentially, from the Christian Social movement. (The German Christian Social movement, remarkably, resembles the Christian Right movement in America today.) Many have questioned Hitler's stand on Christianity. Although he fought against certain Catholic priests who opposed him for political reasons, his belief in God and country never left him. Many Christians throughout history have opposed Christian priests for various reasons; this does not necessarily make one against one's own Christian beliefs.


Hitler's anti-Semitism grew out of his Christian education. Christian Austria and Germany in his time took for granted the belief that Jews held an inferior status to Aryan Christians. Jewish hatred did not spring from Hitler, it came from the preaching of Catholic priests and Protestant ministers throughout Germany for hundreds of years. [/b]The Protestant leader, Martin Luther, himself, held a livid hatred for Jews and their Jewish religion. In his book, "On the Jews and their Lies," Luther set the standard for Jewish hatred in Protestant Germany up until World War II. [b]Hitler expressed a great admiration for Martin Luther.

Hitler did not have to parade his belief in God, as so many American Christians do now. Nor did he have to justify his Godly belief against an Atheist movement. He took his beliefs for granted just as most Germans did at that time. His thrust aimed at politics, not religion. But through his political and religious reasoning he established in 1933, a German Reich Christian Church, uniting the Protestant churches to instill faith in a national German Christianity.

Future generations should remember that Adolph Hitler could not have come into power without the support of the Protestant and Catholic churches and the German Christian populace.


" The best characterization is provided by the product of this religious education, the Jew himself. His life is only of this world, and his spirit is inwardly as alien to true Christianity as his nature two thousand years previous was to the great founder of the new doctrine. Of course, the latter made no secret of his attitude toward the Jewish people, and when necessary he even took the whip to drive from the temple of the Lord this adversary of all humanity, who then as always saw in religion nothing but an instrument for his business existence. In return, Christ was nailed to the cross, while our present-day party Christians debase themselves to begging for Jewish votes at elections and later try to arrange political swindles with atheistic Jewish parties-- and this against their own nation. "

-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

PAGAN 9JA:


For example, when the life of the mother is at risk. Havent you heard of the world famous case of Mrs. Savita Halappanavar, a South Indian living in Ireland who was denied abortion due to its strict catholic laws, as a result of which, she died of multiple organ failure, leading to worldwide protests against Ireland's christian abortion laws

Read more: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-20321741
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Savita_Halappanavar

Not every act that results in the death of a child in the womb is abortion.

PAGAN 9JA:

BullSHYT imho. you are just twisting it to suit your needs.

1) It is very common for cats, dogs , etc., to kill and eat the weakest of their young after childbirth. Usually the mother will be very hungry due to the labour ordeal. She will then pick out the weakling or crippled (if available) young one and eat it.

2)Another bullshyt. You cant generalie all animals. Not all animals act ONLY on instinct. I think this is some "man-supremacist" ideology speqing from the bible. As far as I know, dogs, cats, apes, etc., dont act solely on instinct. If you owned animals you will know. They can actually think, behave, display feelings, etc. Though their instinct are strong at the same time. It all depends upon the animal in question. I hate when humans generalize all animals and treat them as separate from humans. We humans are animals too, albeit advanced in some areas, while being deficient in others. (Mynd_44 I did not mean this as an insult. Im discussing science. )

I am not continuing this thingy about animals.

PAGAN 9JA:

I used my 6th sense.

...and that is your 'objective' way of knowing?

PAGAN 9JA:

I assumed that your attitude is based on biblical teachings, since you didnt give me any proper explanation to your conclusion. Next time please explain and dont just make statements.

Goes to show that your arguments are based on prejudice and emotions.

striktlymi:


Not every act that results in the death of a child in the womb is abortion.

wth? What do you mean by this?

If its done by humans, its abortion!

I am not continuing this thingy about animals.

don't. you have nothing to say.

...and that is your 'objective' way of knowing?

That is upto me. We both know that you are not handicapped.

Goes to show that your arguments are based on prejudice and emotions.

BULLSHYT. Again, we both know that you are a christian-sympathist.

PAGAN 9JA:


wth? What do you mean by this?

If its done by humans, its abortion!

No!!!

Not every killing by humans is murder...same way, not every act that results in the death of the child is abortion.

PAGAN 9JA:

That is upto me. We both know that you are not handicapped.

That's exactly why it is not objective.

striktlymi:

Nah...

If I want to tell you what I believe, I will most definitely tell a 'tale' about how at conception, each zygote has a unique soul from God but I stuck to what we can easily ascertain via logical reasoning.

I made mention of two things actually:

1) That a sperm cell, though alive in its own rights but the life it possesses is not human.

2) The zygote has life which is human.

The evidence I put forth for both statements is gotten from observation basically. Sperm cells do not develop to become adult humans no matter the length of time they are alive but on the other hand zygotes do.

Anyways, you seem to be the one arguing based on what you believe. You made a statement that sperm cells are humans but provided no backing for that statement.

Note: Saying sperm cells are a part of the human biology, hence they are humans does not back up your claim because we can equally say that the toe is a part of our biology, hence toes are humans.

Both the zygote and spermatozoa are cells and can be regarded as such life. It is murky saying human life, rather what type of cells are they -- human cells-- human life will be appropriate for a fully functional multicellular being

Sperm cells upon the condition of fertilizing an egg, they develop into humans, that is irrelevant since we are concerned about what they are, not what they would be

PAGAN 9JA:


Its not really killings. Its just abortion. You can call it killing if you want to.

Doesnt change the fact that it is necessary under many circumstances.

Yes I am.

No I don't.

what is so valuable about human life? THe amount of destruction we cause to the environment?
I think this is a fundamental question that needs to be answered.




You are a blatant lie yourself!

It is a well-known fact that the christian church in europe was involved in the purgatory and annihilation of jews since Medieval times.
This bias is due to the fact that christians believe the Jewish Sarheddin had a major had in jesus' death.


HItler was a true christian. Hitler remained a formal member of the Catholic church until his death, and even ordered his chief associates to remain members.

In 1922, a decade before his ascension to power, Hitler stated before a crowd in Munich:

My feeling as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded only by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was his fight against the Jewish poison. Today, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed his blood upon the Cross. As a Christian, I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice."


HItler had christian roots , which is what initially drove him to the acts, though later on in life, he became indifferent to christianity.


Hitler held strong faith in all his convictions. He justified his fight for the German people and against Jews by using Godly and Biblical reasoning. Indeed, one of his most revealing statements makes this quite clear:

"Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord."

Although Hitler did not practice religion in a churchly sense, he certainly believed in the Bible's God. Raised as Catholic he went to a monastery school and, interestingly, walked everyday past a stone arch which was carved the monastery's coat of arms which included a swastika. As a young boy, Hitler's most ardent goal was to become a priest. Much of his philosophy came from the Bible, and more influentially, from the Christian Social movement. (The German Christian Social movement, remarkably, resembles the Christian Right movement in America today.) Many have questioned Hitler's stand on Christianity. Although he fought against certain Catholic priests who opposed him for political reasons, his belief in God and country never left him. Many Christians throughout history have opposed Christian priests for various reasons; this does not necessarily make one against one's own Christian beliefs.


Hitler's anti-Semitism grew out of his Christian education. Christian Austria and Germany in his time took for granted the belief that Jews held an inferior status to Aryan Christians. Jewish hatred did not spring from Hitler, it came from the preaching of Catholic priests and Protestant ministers throughout Germany for hundreds of years. [/b]The Protestant leader, Martin Luther, himself, held a livid hatred for Jews and their Jewish religion. In his book, "On the Jews and their Lies," Luther set the standard for Jewish hatred in Protestant Germany up until World War II. [b]Hitler expressed a great admiration for Martin Luther.

Hitler did not have to parade his belief in God, as so many American Christians do now. Nor did he have to justify his Godly belief against an Atheist movement. He took his beliefs for granted just as most Germans did at that time. His thrust aimed at politics, not religion. But through his political and religious reasoning he established in 1933, a German Reich Christian Church, uniting the Protestant churches to instill faith in a national German Christianity.

Future generations should remember that Adolph Hitler could not have come into power without the support of the Protestant and Catholic churches and the German Christian populace.


" The best characterization is provided by the product of this religious education, the Jew himself. His life is only of this world, and his spirit is inwardly as alien to true Christianity as his nature two thousand years previous was to the great founder of the new doctrine. Of course, the latter made no secret of his attitude toward the Jewish people, and when necessary he even took the whip to drive from the temple of the Lord this adversary of all humanity, who then as always saw in religion nothing but an instrument for his business existence. In return, Christ was nailed to the cross, while our present-day party Christians debase themselves to begging for Jewish votes at elections and later try to arrange political swindles with atheistic Jewish parties-- and this against their own nation. "

-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

the termination of a baby in the womb is not killing? Why? How?

Nice to know you do not value human life. This debate is pointless then, since you do not value human life. The life of a child, or a disabled person is irrelevant to you.



And your words on hitler are borne of ignorance. Hitler was an anti-christian and a twisted, wicked man. Majority of historians agree on the fact that his long term objective was the eradication of christianity, and even debate to see if he was an atheist. He hated the bible God and the bible and wrote another bible and invented another Jesus.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler

Kay 17:

Both the zygote and spermatozoa are cells and can be regarded as such life. It is murky saying human life, rather what type of cells are they -- human cells-- human life will be appropriate for a fully functional multicellular being

Sperm cells upon the condition of fertilizing an egg, they develop into humans, that is irrelevant since we are concerned about what they are, not what they would be

is a sperm cell a developing human being? Is a zygote a developing human being?

Kay 17:

Both the zygote and spermatozoa are cells and can be regarded as such life. It is murky saying human life, rather what type of cells are they -- human cells-- human life will be appropriate for a fully functional multicellular being

Sperm cells upon the condition of fertilizing an egg, they develop into humans, that is irrelevant since we are concerned about what they are, not what they would be

Are sperm cells thesame as zygotes?

Kay 17:

Both the zygote and spermatozoa are cells and can be regarded as such life. It is murky saying human life, rather what type of cells are they -- human cells-- human life will be appropriate for a fully functional multicellular being

Sperm cells upon the condition of fertilizing an egg, they develop into humans, that is irrelevant since we are concerned about what they are, not what they would be

Blood are made up of cells as well, are you telling us outside the body they can be termed life as well?

Joshthefirst: the termination of a baby in the womb is not killing? Why? How?

Its not the killing of a human . The baby in the womb is not yet formed and developed completely into a human. Being human is not just looking and being made up of the materials that constitute humans. Being human is to be involved in all the basic activities that humans do. and to be physically formed as well. For which zygotes and half-formed babies in womb do not qualify. Or else, In that case you could also say that your blood is alive and killing of your RBC's is murde

Nice to know you do not value human life. This debate is pointless then, since you do not value human life. The life of a child, or a disabled person is irrelevant to you.

I neither value, nor de-value it. The life of a disabled person is of concern. but you are going off topic again.

We are talking about babies in the womb and new-born babies. The disabled person's suffering couldve been prevented if he were never born that way.

We humans let disabled foetus survive and then we face the consequences and pity them. it doesnt make any sense.

And your words on hitler are borne of ignorance. Hitler was an anti-christian and a twisted, wicked man. Majority of historians agree on the fact that his long term objective was the eradication of christianity, and even debate to see if he was an atheist. He hated the bible God and the bible and wrote another bible and invented another Jesus.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler

Is that all you have to say? My words are not borne of ignorance. They are based on FACTS.

Centuries of christian brainwashing, lies and racism. This has all combined and given rise to the by-product - Hitler.

Hitler was twisted and wicked BECAUSE he was christian. Accept that fact.

He didnt invent no jesus. He was a byproduct of jesus.

A son of man-god.

striktlymi:

No!!!

Not every killing by humans is murder...same way, not every act that results in the death of the child is abortion.

Dude? Are you trolling? Seriously?


I was referring to the killing of children in the womb. THe same thing you were talking about.

That's exactly why it is not objective.

Listen. you want to waste time on this? Ok im all for it.

Can you swear by your God that you are handicapped?

striktlymi:

Are sperm cells thesame as zygotes?

Are zygotes the same as humans?

Joshthefirst: is a sperm cell a developing human being? Is a zygote a developing human being?

Am I zygote or am I a MAN?

Bidam: Blood are made up of cells as well, are you telling us outside the body they can be termed life as well?

technically they are living and according to the striktlymi school of thought, the destruction of blood cells is tantamount to MURDER.

OLAADEGBU:

What else have you got to say apart from your emotional outburst? Any sensible contributions?

hehehhehehe, that post looks like how legion might have reacted when he first saw Jesus.
Olaa you're doing a great job, well done sir.

Abortion is wrong and will always b wrong regardless the context .now it can b tolerated if it proved beyond any doubts that the life of the mother is @ risk .
Abortion is a sin .

Happy Sunday everyone