OLAADEGBU:

Thanks to the likes of Mary Sclessor that brought the light of Christ to the darkness in places like Nigeria.

Its good she didnt come to my village. we wouldve put her up for human sacrifice.

PAGAN 9JA:


Its good she didnt come to my village. we wouldve put her up for human sacrifice.

It shows why part of Nigeria remains barbaric and the other civilised.

OLAADEGBU:

It shows why part of Nigeria remains barbaric and the other civilised.

true. that barbarism has lead to people opening threads like this and exhibiting cavemen era thoughts..

Educate yourself with this videoclip and stop basking in ignorance.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7y2KsU_dhwI

OLAADEGBU: Educate yourself with this videoclip and stop basking in ignorance.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7y2KsU_dhwI

I dont want to watch your videos.

If you want to educate me with you arrogance, use words.

Pagan9ja always argue like a dummy who didn't witness the four wall of a secondary school after primary school.

PAGAN 9JA:



When it comes to natural laws, it is best to learn from animals.

We obviously cannot learn from 'lower animals' in this regard because they act basically on instincts. The actions of man is not only guided by instincts...'Mother nature' has given us much more than what she gave to other 'life forms'. Man can reason, rationalize, act based on logical thoughts and the like, hence to want to learn from animals is a bit low for me. No insult intended.

Now, if I choose to go by your 'philosophy' and learn from the 'lower animals' then the question can be asked: Do 'animals' commit abortion or carry their pregnancies to term?

PAGAN 9JA:

A mother has the right to take the life of what she gave birth to.

I do not agree with that line of thought because by that you are inadvertently saying that your mum has the right to come and take your life now, where you 'stand'. This is wrong!

PAGAN 9JA:

A child that has no emotional or mental development is as good as a fetal child.


If the mother doesnt want the child, she has the right to end it.


In my village, if the child was born disabled, they killed it and waited for another birth.

Who wants the child to suffer when it grows in the real world?

Why should the parents bear the burden, when it can be prevented at the early stage.

The above is soooooo wrong and against any form of logical reasoning. I need not say anything on them.

@striktlymi @olaadegbu

As to sin and crime, you guys very much see the similarity. And that punishment is deservedly visited on the guilty. Now, I insist it is unjust for people to suffer for the actions of others be it their parents or Adam and Eve. And in the divine level, justice is readily demanded.

As to abortion, we all agree that the human person/soul is not present throughout the formative stages. Sperm cells and ova are not human persons yet. The determination of human person is a matter of fact. It must be investigated.

Kay 17: @striktlymi @olaadegbu

As to sin and crime, you guys very much see the similarity. And that punishment is deservedly visited on the guilty. Now, I insist it is unjust for people to suffer for the actions of others be it their parents or Adam and Eve. And in the divine level, justice is readily demanded.

I agree with the above to some extent.

Question: Do you think a judge is wrong to sentence a child's parent to death or prison, given that the child will suffer the loss of the parents?

Kay 17:
As to abortion, we all agree that the human person/soul is not present throughout the formative stages. Sperm cells and ova are not human persons yet. The determination of human person is a matter of fact. It must be investigated.

@Bold: I don't agree!

Kay 17:

What do you have to say about the descendants of Adam and Eve suffering for the crimes and sin of their ancestors (Adam and Eve)!

You should know that nothing resourceful comes from most Christians, they are two faced and always twisting things to suit their case

OlaoChi:

You should know that nothing resourceful comes from most Christians, they are two faced and always twisting things to suit their case

...and the 'resourcefulness' of that comment jumps right out.

striktlymi: Any form of abortion is wrong. We may try to rationalize it from now till thy kindom come but no amount of rationalization will make it right.

your opinion

OlaoChi:

your opinion

...and that wasn't your opinion?

FrancisTony: Pagan9ja always argue like a dummy who didn't witness the four wall of a secondary school after primary school.

why the heck are you following me around everywhere like tail?

are you GAY?

striktlymi:

Two things here...

1) A child suffers because the mum and dad were thrown in prison by a judge for breaking the law.

2) The parents decide to kill the child because they are trying to protect their interest, whatever the interest is.

The first case is basically a natural consequence for the wrong deeds of the parents. Though the child suffers but he judge can't be held liable for the suffering of the child. This is similar to the case of Adam and Eve.

While the second case is what abortion is. The parents decide to punish their child directly for a wrong it knows nothing about. The judge has little or no role to play here. This is not a natural consequence for the wrong doing of the parents.

What's your basis for tagging abortion as wrong?

OLAADEGBU:

Thanks to the likes of Mary Sclessor that brought the light of Christ to the darkness in places like Nigeria.

This is a disappointing statement

striktlymi:


...and that wasn't your opinion?

Have no right to decide wat is right or wrong for people. Live your life by your own rules or by your Bible rules but don't rub it on peoples faces

striktlymi:

We obviously cannot learn from 'lower animals' in this regard because they act basically on instincts. The actions of man is not only guided by instincts...'Mother nature' has given us much more than what she gave to other 'life forms'. Man can reason, rationalize, act based on logical thoughts and the like, hence to want to learn from animals is a bit low for me. No insult intended.

Now, if I choose to go by your 'philosophy' and learn from the 'lower animals' then the question can be asked: Do 'animals' commit abortion or carry their pregnancies to term?

There is no such thing as lower animals or higher animals, unless used in a measure of complexity.

some animals have better eyesight than humans. some animals have more powerful teeth than humans. etc.

Anyways, in relation with mammals, if you generalize, you can learn from them. Especially from our closest living relatives, the primate family.

Note: Im not talking about morality or anything. Im talking about natural laws.

Men can reason, etc. Men also have a certain 6th sense instinct.

Now how is it unreasonable to abort in terms of birth complexities? One might argue that you are the one who is being unreasonable by not giving into abortion in dire circumstances.



As to your second question, animals generally kill the weaker ones at infancy. Or they die by themselves.
Infact the same situation was with us humans in the past. The disabled/very sick ones would not make it through naturally.

However in todays artificial era, with hospitals, new ways of keeping disabled infants alive, etc. the natural system has been broken.

( Thus today we have unsustainable population explosion, etc. over the past 50-100 yrs due to these advancements. I would not like to go into that now. It is off-topic. )

The Age of Modern Medical Sciences has had many good effects, but has at the same time affected reasoning in some areas, and therefore is not being put to proper use.

Let me give you an example:

Some countries do not allow patients to die, even if they are leading a life of prolonged suffering and/or are in vegetative state. They will keep them on life support even when there is no cure.


You have never had a disabled person in your home. By disabled I mean, one of those severe types.

You dont understand how much stress and suffering they go through their entire lives. It is very easy for you fellows to speak like Gods.

I do not agree with that line of thought because by that you are inadvertently saying that your mum has the right to come and take your life now, where you 'stand'. This is wrong!

I said at infancy, when the child has not yet been exposed and developed mentally and physically. It is still at the root/bud stage.
can you comprehend me?

The above is soooooo wrong and against any form of logical reasoning. I need not say anything on them.

If its wrong , then prove its wrong. dont just go by emotions or the bible.

OlaoChi:

What's your basis for tagging abortion as wrong?

The basis for my conclusion is quite simple.

I believe firmly that life begins at conception without a shred of doubt and the basis of any human existence is the gift of life. Without life there is no such thing as a human being.

Hence, irrespective of the various formative stages of any human existence, we are first and foremost human beings whose lives are precious and that life should be safeguarded within reasonable measures.

By the above, the right to life does not just start when we are out of the womb...far from it. Our right to life starts from the moment when we are conceived. Any argument that deprives us this right simply because we were in the womb would necessarily deprive us of this right when we are outside the womb.

Since it is considered wrong to kill a human being by our standards as rational beings then this wrong MUST be extended to the child in the womb. Hence my stance against any form of abortion.

striktlymi:



Since it is considered wrong to kill a human being by our standards as rational beings then this wrong MUST be extended to the child in the womb. Hence my stance against any form of abortion.

Who told you it is wrong to kill a human being?

Some human beings deserve worse than death.

OlaoChi:

Have no right to decide wat is right or wrong for people. Live your life by your own rules or by your Bible rules but don't rub it on peoples faces

nope. Right or wrong is objective. Living by your own rules and definitions of what is right and wrong will result in utter chaos and confusion in the society.

PAGAN 9JA:



why the heck are you following me around everywhere like tail?

are you GAY?

Don't you know? I Ripped your dad and bro azz. Ewwww!!!

Joshthefirst: nope. Right or wrong is objective. Living by your own rules and definitions of what is right and wrong will result in utter chaos and confusion in the society.

Then submit to the rules of your tribe and society.

FrancisTony: Don't you know? I Ripped your dad and bro azz. Ewwww!!!

disgusting fellow. Your head is not right.

Do you think you would be alive today to type that if you did what you said?

PAGAN 9JA:


There is no such thing as lower animals or higher animals, unless used in a measure of complexity.

some animals have better eyesight than humans. some animals have more powerful teeth than humans. etc.

My use of the inverted comma settles the above.

PAGAN 9JA:

Anyways, in relation with mammals, if you generalize, you can learn from them. Especially from our closest living relatives, the primate family.

Note: Im not talking about morality or anything. Im talking about natural laws.

Men can reason, etc. Men also have a certain 6th sense instinct.

Now how is it unreasonable to abort in terms of birth complexities? One might argue that you are the one who is being unreasonable by not giving into abortion in dire circumstances.

Can you give one example of these 'dire circumstances?

PAGAN 9JA:

As to your second question, animals generally kill the weaker ones at infancy. Or they die by themselves.
Infact the same situation was with us humans in the past. The disabled/very sick ones would not make it through naturally.

Two things:

1) It is quite rare (if any) to see an animal kill its own young at birth. What we have for the most part is see some sought of maternal instinct kick in, even with the most deadliest of predators when it comes to child birth and taking care of their young ones.

Infanticides is a common occurrence in the wild but this occurrence is basically from other mature members of the same specie and not necessarily from the mother. Your case above cannot be substituted for abortion because abortion involves a mother taking the life of her child.

2) Animals act on instincts for the most part and they do not have the ability to think like humans do, hence they can be excused for some actions man cannot be excused for because nature provided man with the ability to discern a whole lot of things.

PAGAN 9JA:

However in todays artificial era, with hospitals, new ways of keeping disabled infants alive, etc. the natural system has been broken.

The Age of Modern Medical Sciences has had many good effects, but has at the same time affected reasoning in some areas, and therefore is not being put to proper use.

True!

PAGAN 9JA:

Let me give you an example:

Some countries do not allow patients to die, even if they are leading a life of prolonged suffering and/or are in vegetative state. They will keep them on life support even when there is no cure.

The above is an argument for euthanasia which is another topic.

PAGAN 9JA:

You have never had a disabled person in your home. By disabled I mean, one of those severe types.

You dont understand how much stress and suffering they go through their entire lives. It is very easy for you fellows to speak like Gods.

...and how do you know that I have no disabled person? What makes you think that I am not disabled myself?

PAGAN 9JA:

I said at infancy, when the child has not yet been exposed and developed mentally and physically. It is still at the root/bud stage.
can you comprehend me?

I understood what you meant.

PAGAN 9JA:

If its wrong , then prove its wrong. dont just go by emotions or the bible.

Show me one scriptural reference I have given so far and tell me who is being emotional.

PAGAN 9JA:


Then submit to the rules of your tribe and society.

I believe you should ask by what standards should societal rules be made?


If I was in germany during the time of the holocaust, submitting to their rules would mean considering myself as less than human and allowing myself to be discriminated against and killed.

PAGAN 9JA:



Who told you it is wrong to kill a human being?

Some human beings deserve worse than death.

In the context of murder.

striktlymi:

The basis for my conclusion is quite simple.

I believe firmly that life begins at conception without a shred of doubt and the basis of any human existence is the gift of life. Without life there is no such thing as a human being.

Hence, irrespective of the various formative stages of any human existence, we are first and foremost human beings whose lives are precious and that life should be safeguarded within reasonable measures.

By the above, the right to life does not just start when we are out of the womb...far from it. Our right to life starts from the moment when we are conceived. Any argument that deprives us this right simply because we were in the womb would necessarily deprive us of this right when we are outside the womb.

Since it is considered wrong to kill a human being by our standards as rational beings then this wrong MUST be extended to the child in the womb. Hence my stance against any form of abortion.

Ok life is the Great gift of existence but why do you deprive animals of that Great gift just so you can satisfy your appetit?

while still in the womb it isn't human until it is born and even though we still categorize the unbirthed child as human why should you bring a child in the world to suffer? Another case could be According to your Christian doctrines that child could be born and go to hell something that wouldn't happen if the child never existed
In fact it's much better for human existence to end than end up in eternal suffering

Am just making you understand the many advantages or good sides with abortion especially as it relates with your religion

Joshthefirst: nope. Right or wrong is objective. Living by your own rules and definitions of what is right and wrong will result in utter chaos and confusion in the society.

Every society has it's own rules if you don't like it you migrate

OlaoChi:

Ok life is the Great gift of existence but why do you deprive animals of that Great gift just so you can satisfy your appetit?

while still in the womb it isn't human until it is born and even though we still categorize the unbirthed child as human why should you bring a child in the world to suffer? Another case could be According to your Christian doctrines that child could be born and go to hell something that wouldn't happen if the child never existed
In fact it's much better for human existence to end than end up in eternal suffering

Am just making you understand the many advantages or good sides with abortion especially as it relates with your religion

that is a lie. A big lie. A baby is not human until it is born? Nonsense.

That's what people said about slaves and what hitler said about jews. That they weren't human.

OlaoChi:

Every society has it's own rules if you don't like it you migrate

. I hear. In those days, it was within the laws of Germany to kill jews. And to wage war on nations in a bid for survival of the fittest.

@striklymtl

But you don't think the sperm cells are persons?!

OlaoChi:

Ok life is the Great gift of existence but why do you deprive animals of that Great gift just so you can satisfy your appetit?

I am quite sure you are aware that we are talking about human life here.

OlaoChi:
while still in the womb it isn't human until it is born

What exactly makes a child in the womb less human than one outside the womb?

OlaoChi:
and even though we still categorize the unbirthed child as human

Whether we choose to categorize them as humans or not, it does not change the fact that they are humans.

OlaoChi:
why should you bring a child in the world to suffer?

??

Was anyone brought into the world to enjoy? Sorry but the last I checked every human suffers in one way or the other, as long as we are in this world. Now, I hope you are not suggesting that we go about killing innocent beggers on the streets because they are 'suffering' in this world?

OlaoChi:
Another case could be According to your Christian doctrines that child could be born and go to hell something that wouldn't happen if the child never existed.
In fact it's much better for human existence to end than end up in eternal suffering

Now who is bringing up Sacred scriptures? Do you want us to argue based on Sacred scriptures? If you want that, I can easily shift gear.

OlaoChi:

Am just making you understand the many advantages or good sides with abortion especially as it relates with your religion

You are yet to show one good case for abortion. If you want to truly show the beauty in abortion, I will suggest you do that by telling us in clear terms why it is right to terminate a life in the womb and wrong to do same to one outside the womb.