Olril18:
u are just contradicting urself..

Olril18:
what a fool u are!!
nonsense post!!
u know what??,send all ur children to polytecnic
id.iot!

Olril18:
fg say both degrees are equal?
u must be smoking weed...stop consoling urself man!

Olril18:
what a fool u are!!
nonsense post!!
u know what??,send all ur children to polytecnic
id.iot!

speedyboi: HND is better than B.Eng. Yes I said it . We just belong to a society where people like to discriminate courses and institutions stu/pidly. All they know how to do is acquire stu/pid certificates without anything to show for it. Nigerian Education system is such a disgrace. The ways Nigerians view and discriminate things is way disgraceful!
In everyother part of the world, Anybody who studied engineering (whether in a university or polytechnic) is called 'An Engineer'. Here in Nigeria, they are technicians and they will have to waste 3 extra years to get the 'engineering' title. WTF! Only people who attended technical schools should be called 'Technicians' (even that school has been scrapped in Nigeria too. smh) for christ's sake.
In everyother part, anyone who wants to study Technology-related-courses would prefer a Polytechnic to a university. In Nigeria, reverse is the case.

If not for the discrimination, I would've attended a polytechnic myself. Cos they teach what it takes to be an Engineer and not senseless cramming and ending up with paper work called certificate.

In everyother part, it's not compulsory you attend College cos you can become someone with the knowledge you got from highschool. But in Nigeria, you sha must get that degree! smh. Technical Schools (secondary schools) that will give enough knowledge to start up something and become a technician no longer exists for whatever reason. kai. Threads like these always make me feel sad, Cos our mentality is just awkward in Nigeria.
We can all see what all these discrimination is causing; How many Engineering Companies can Nigeria boast of? Only Julius Berger and few others. Why? Because a typical Nigerian graduate can't do the most basic things in Engineering........that's just the fact. I know some Electrical Engineering graduates who can't get the ratings of Resistors right cos they don't even know colour codes or how to place the multiplier. To draw simple layout, most cannot do...talkless to arranging components on a Vero board.
My Scholar while in School can only cram till kingdom come....take him to the workshop, he will be looking like a dummy. Yet he will brag first class in the society, issh. I wonder where he is now sef.


To me, HND is equal if not better than B.ENG. B.Eng is just a bragging right (that's what Nigerians can do best)......tchew

goldfish80:
I've been following this thread since day1 and I can say your post is nailed on-point.

I had my ond from a poly before proceeding to Leeds for my bsc and msc in computer Engineering and telecommunications engr.
Its disheartning that we as a country has refused to grow up and judging by some post I've seen on this thread discriminating the poly guys i just smh in awe.

My 2nd yr at the poly,I was already playing around with flip flps,vero boards,capacitors,light emmiting diodes,resistors and using colour codes to check resistor readings.. Lol At that time,my university buddies were even yet to handle a soldering iron and a led.
I know a Dannish guy who was with Econet(airtel now),he had no bsc,he basically went to a technical institute in Denmark but with raft of professional certifications,yet he had Nigerian msc holders who were reporting to him.

zebra: Pls donot be disappointed in me yet. The poly HND guys are technologist (applied engineers) while the BEng guys are engineers (theoretical engineers or designers), how then do u expect the technologists not to be better than the engineers in hands-on practical work? Like some of u have agreed before, technologists are trained to work with their hands while also using their brains, while engineers use their brains to work on designs. Why then do u expect them not to be good on what they are trained on? What i know is that the university engineering guys do more maths courses than the poly guys, that's one of the major differences btw them. U can google to see the difference btw engineering and engineering technology urself.

speedyboi: HND is better than B.Eng. Yes I said it . We just belong to a society where people like to discriminate courses and institutions stu/pidly. All they know how to do is acquire stu/pid certificates without anything to show for it. Nigerian Education system is such a disgrace. The ways Nigerians view and discriminate things is way disgraceful!
In everyother part of the world, Anybody who studied engineering (whether in a university or polytechnic) is called 'An Engineer'. Here in Nigeria, they are technicians and they will have to waste 3 extra years to get the 'engineering' title. WTF! Only people who attended technical schools should be called 'Technicians' (even that school has been scrapped in Nigeria too. smh) for christ's sake.
In everyother part, anyone who wants to study Technology-related-courses would prefer a Polytechnic to a university. In Nigeria, reverse is the case.

If not for the discrimination, I would've attended a polytechnic myself. Cos they teach what it takes to be an Engineer and not senseless cramming and ending up with paper work called certificate.

In everyother part, it's not compulsory you attend College cos you can become someone with the knowledge you got from highschool. But in Nigeria, you sha must get that degree! smh. Technical Schools (secondary schools) that will give enough knowledge to start up something and become a technician no longer exists for whatever reason. kai. Threads like these always make me feel sad, Cos our mentality is just awkward in Nigeria.
We can all see what all these discrimination is causing; How many Engineering Companies can Nigeria boast of? Only Julius Berger and few others. Why? Because a typical Nigerian graduate can't do the most basic things in Engineering........that's just the fact. I know some Electrical Engineering graduates who can't get the ratings of Resistors right cos they don't even know colour codes or how to place the multiplier. To draw simple layout, most cannot do...talkless to arranging components on a Vero board.
My Scholar while in School can only cram till kingdom come....take him to the workshop, he will be looking like a dummy. Yet he will brag first class in the society, issh. I wonder where he is now sef.


To me, HND is equal if not better than B.ENG. B.Eng is just a bragging right (that's what Nigerians can do best)......tchew

fortunejum:
As long as the federal govt recognizes the two certificates as equivalent; nothing will stop the HND holders from attaining any high positions as the BSC holders.Secondly, HND graduates has opportunity to upgrade their qualification. I am doing my ICAN now, so there is no where i cannot rise to the post of a perm sec. tomorrow.

speedyboi:

An example of the Deluded and Shallow minded Nigerians I was referring to; who couldn't even read between the lines to grab the essential points. Typical!

And you know what? If any of my kids wants to study Engineering.....and we have a better system in Nigeria, he is going to Polytechnic or anyother Technology-based institution. Now die! Hediot!

ayobase:


Federal University of TECHNOLOGY is am ENGINEERING school aight?

And do u know that Technology is embedded in Engineering. Broad it is!

Maybe I should ask u question...are u implying that the Engineering students do no practical at all or how?

I still don't know what a Technologist, technician or electrician could do that an Engineer wouldn't be able to or not having idea of.

Only Electrical/Electronics Engineering has Power, Control, Electronics, and Comminication embedded. And what do u expect of such an Engineer.

What do u make out of our Swep I, Swep 2 and SIWES. Play?

Mechanical Engineering has its branches also, so also CHemical, Civil and the likes!

5yrs in University for a particular course. Do u really think it worth it to compare an OND holder, even HND holder!

Walexsammy: , bro, dnt go there, maybe it depend on skuls, becuz am also studying Computer Engineering and I can categorically tell u that since my 3rd year we been undergoing different practical, even in my 4th year, we had a 4unit course jst practicals.....back to what u said abt ur OND and u were already doing ur practical.......seems uve forgotten OND is jst 2yrs, if u dnt do it, when will u....No matter wat u guys say or hw u guys to justify it, HND can neva I mean neva be compare with Bsc or B.Eng.....U guys kept talking abt practicals do u really expect a B.eng holder to go wiring a building by himself? Na wa ooo...In engineering there are different levels dia....we have the artisans/craft men, technicians, technologist and Engineers......I guess u guys will soon compare Technicians and craftmen 2geda one day

goldfish80:
I've been following this thread since day1 and I can say your post is nailed on-point.

I had my ond from a poly before proceeding to Leeds for my bsc and msc in computer Engineering and telecommunications engr.
Its disheartning that we as a country has refused to grow up and judging by some post I've seen on this thread discriminating the poly guys i just smh in awe.

My 2nd yr at the poly,I was already playing around with flip flps,vero boards,capacitors,light emmiting diodes,resistors and using colour codes to check resistor readings.. Lol At that time,my university buddies were even yet to handle a soldering iron and a led.
I know a Dannish guy who was with Econet(airtel now),he had no bsc,he basically went to a technical institute in Denmark but with raft of professional certifications,yet he had Nigerian msc holders who were reporting to him.

ayobase:

Engineer and technologist are two different people sha.

You want your Child to study Engineering, and you wanna send him to Technology-based institution like FUT,Minna and the likes abi?

Walexsammy: , bro, dnt go there, maybe it depend on skuls, becuz am also studying Computer Engineering and I can categorically tell u that since my 3rd year we been undergoing different practical, even in my 4th year, we had a 4unit course jst practicals.....back to what u said abt ur OND and u were already doing ur practical.......seems uve forgotten OND is jst 2yrs, if u dnt do it, when will u....No matter wat u guys say or hw u guys to justify it, HND can neva I mean neva be compare with Bsc or B.Eng.....U guys kept talking abt practicals do u really expect a B.eng holder to go wiring a building by himself? Na wa ooo...In engineering there are different levels dia....we have the artisans/craft men, technicians, technologist and Engineers......I guess u guys will soon compare Technicians and craftmen 2geda one day

ayobase:


Let's face reality, what concerns an Engineer with knowing the value of resistor and the likes when he is not into Electronics, but power, control or communication.

ayobase:

And?
U were doing a course of 2 years and u were expected to know the basics. Besides, that was Electonics, but Power, Control nor Telecommunication.

What do u think an Engineering student was doing within that 2 years. Playing?

Are u claiming to be more learned?
Are u saying an Engineering students knows those not?

How is an Engineering student supposed to Design and construct if he knows nothing about electronics.

goldfish80:
Since youre a student of computer engineering in a Nigerian uni, could you be kind enough to name the course you offer you think your collegues in a poly do not offer. From electronics,circuit theorem,instrumentation,thermodynamics,advanced calculus,what course do you think you offer, your poly collegues don't offer? Incase you don't know, in multi national companies every technical person is refered to as technician, Bsc or Hnd while the lower ranking technicians with O'level are refered to as handiman,so forget about name/title,am speaking from first hand experience in Transocean.

The talk that bsc holders are designers while hnd holders simply implement the design is hoogwash because we all know what is obtainable in Nigeria,am speaking from the field of electronics. At Ond level I was taught circuit desgin.
The Japanese and Chinese model of electronics engineering is modelled around polytechnic institutes.That's why you see these nations holding sway in robotics which is the future,while we sit at home here in Nigeria cancelling each other out on why Bsc is superior to hnd.

Walexsammy: ....Have u heard of Engineering Analysis before? What of Computational Method?....these are jst but few...these courses give u an insight on how to design....I bet u haven't heard of them b4 because have got many HND holders here

ayobase:


Yes, I understand ur pains.

If not for failed educational system we have, do u think a Technologist should be be compared to an Engineer.

Let's face reality, what concerns an Engineer with knowing the value of resistor and the likes when he is not into Electronics, but power, control or communication.

I guess u are generalising just like Poly's. No, don't compare.

Let me ask you a question, why is transformer rated in KVA?

An Engineer does the design, while the technologist implements with thorough supervision.

And what makes u think that an Engineer can't construct what he designs......division of labour giving a technologist and others an opportunity.

Engineer has more understanding. I don't expect u to argue that. An Engineer is the blueprint. An Engineer dictates, while the technologist obeys!

You even dey talk sey HND better pass B.Eng. Maybe we can also say a College graduate better pass Poly graduate.

And finally, Engineers are Technologists, but Technologists are not Engineers!

speedyboi:

@first bolded, Ayobase....I can't believe you are saying that! Anybody that studied any branch of Engineering should know the basics of all the specializations under it. How can an Engineer claim not to be able to read the ratings on a resistor because he didn't specialize in Electronics? Gosh! This is the main reason people bash Engineering graduates!

And to answer your question, Transformers are rated in KVA because loses are based on Current and voltage, not on the power factor. Why would anyone in Electrical Engineering not know that?

@second bolded, WE all know that; but the point is Polytechnic graduates are also Engineers. That's how it is in Everyother part of the world.

And it seems you are confusing the jobs of the various professions in the hierarchy in Engineering work. There's no place where Engineers are supposed to be 'SUPERVISING'. If that is the case, then Engineering has no beauty. It's only in Nigeria I see Engineers saying, it is the work of EVERY Engineer to be Supervising. Say wetin? It is only the Engineer who has attained the title of 'Senior Engineer' that should supervise, the rest should be on the field, working! Lemme give a load down....I won't give the full details just little things into what each profession should be doing in an Engineering project.


CIVIL ENGINEERING
-Craftman: It's the job of the craftmen to build all the casting materials used for bridges etc after the 'Design Engineer' must have drawn the plan
-Technicians/Electricians- they are in charge of the cranes that carries the Engineers doing the construction work, the construction materials (Mortar). He is also incharge of Generators etc.
-Labourer: Just as it sounds; Mortar mixing etc...
----------------after all these people we have

-Engineer 1: this person works on site.....he is suppose to lay blocks etc. There equipments that should make the job pleasant though....like cranes that carries him to the part he is constructing (In Nigeria, Na bricklayers they do this work and you say building no go collapse)
-Engineer 2
-Engineer 3
-senior Engineer
-Principal Engineer
-Senior Principal Engineer

I can't really tell what each of those positions do cos I've not reached the positions: But their work ranges from Design to Supervision. the seniority increases based on their Capabilities on field (as accessed by A higher rank Engineer) and not your certificate.


ELECTRICAL ENGINEERING
- Craftman: They make the pattern outer covering of stuffs (Electronic products etc)
- Technicians/Electricians- They are the ones to call when things get spoilt (Like wirings, Phones, etc that have been done by an Engineer - so yes, Engineers are suppose to do the wiring in a sane world)
etc......

then we have the different engineering ranks.

Technologists are the ones who usually do surveys and all those stuffs.


[b]The fact of it all is that; Engineers who wants to work on field in any part of the world usually attend Polytechnics and they are ENGINEERS, While the ones who wanna become lecturers and become professors et al attend universities. that's how it should be! Our system is just messed up in Nigeria.

goldfish80:
If I've heard about those stated courses above? Lol ..well Unfortunately am not a hnd holder,it would be stupid if I should reply that.Btw Don't bet your money on the HND guys never coming across those, my candid advice because those courses you listed are under micro computer and the standard textbooks both uni and poly in Nigeria use is digital systems principles and applications by Ronald J.Tocci.
The hnd guys should take you up on the courses you pointed out though

goldfish80:
God bless you for that first paragraph. If an electrical electronics engineer believes he has no buisness knowing resistor readings and color code then the future of Nigeria is in tartars.

ayobase:

You want your Child to study Engineering, and you wanna send him to Technology-based institution like FUT,Minna and the likes abi?

speedyboi:

It's not even funny. Cos the basic stuffs are necessary to do anything tangible in Engineering. If you don't know how to calculate ratings of Resistors, Capacitors etc, then how will you place your components on the vero board/PSB that is a necessity (e.g the 'Motherboard') of every electronic device? And you wonder why we have such a few Manufacturing companies. It's a shame.

All Nigerian Engineering graduates have is Bragging rights. Really!

speedyboi:

An example of the Deluded and Shallow minded Nigerians I was referring to; who couldn't even read between the lines to grab the [b]essential points. [/b]Typical!

And you know what? If any of my kids wants to study Engineering.....and we have a better system in Nigeria, he is going to Polytechnic or anyother Technology-based institution. Now die! Hediot!

jp philips:


I completely disagree with the bold part, the OP has no point to use the word "essential", truth be told, Nigerians have a way of looking for sympathy where there is none in the first place.

The polys were created for a reason same for the Uni's therefore, if a man sayeth he joinest either one, he has himself to blame not the system.
I ve not researched WES, but in Nigeria here, the polys were meant to serve a technical purpose, but what we see are people who want to do white collar jobs with a technical certificate, isn't that a misplaced priority?

on the grounds of discrimination, i dont really want to call it discrimination but i call it reality and it has been here even before the OP was born, the point here is, people look for easy choices but wanna get sympathy when they are caught up with its consequences.

Instead of taking Jamb, you opt for a poly Jamb, then what? and you still wanna be apar with people who made a different choice?

Today, instead of kids studying to pass jamb, they say no, they stick to BBA and facebook, next their parents will send them to charge and bail universities in Ghana and other poorly rated Scandinavian countries where they get a sub standard degree at a high cost.

My point is, you cannot fool yourself and expect to be pitied.

Kwame Nkurumah university in Ghana was rated 63rd in Africa, yet people go and pay as much as $2,500 per term to send their wards there, meanwhile back home here, OAU is occupying the 10th position and far cheaper, but because the kids don't want to study, we take the easy way out, of course you don't need jamb to study in that Ghananian university.

most employers are reviewing these certificates and of course the victims will cry, "discrimination", i heard even govt agencies like NSCDC have started sacking or demoting people with sub standard foreign certificates (due to the oga at the top scandal, i guess) it wont take long before other private emplyers follow suit, is it really discrimination? or a brazen abuse of common sense?
"what thou sowest thou reapest.'"

back to the polytechnic issue, most polytechnic graduates in Nigeria dont even know what they are supposed to be doing in life, the guy that does art works, painting and sculptor for us graduated from yaba tech and he came highly recommended not just by people who have seen his skills first hand but the natural testimony of his works,
I see his invoices and he earns good money, what is a mechanical technician looking for in a Bank?

Nigeria is a very big market which is lacking in craftsmanship, check it, any handi work you wish to do from furniture maker, to mechanic to builder to electrician just name it, you hardly get good ones, so i have no doubt in my mind that our trained technicians have a very large market only if they will apply the knowledge they have gotten.

An electrical technician wants to work in a bank, insurance house etc, that is total misplaced priorities and that is what the poly guys are suffering not discrimination.

Employers, BSc, Beng are subtly telling the tech guys, "go ye into the field and use thy hands". I share that sentiment also.

I want a mechanical technician to have the capacity to fix cars,
I want Fine and applied technicians to have the capacity to paint houses and inject innovation into it,

not sitting lame duck in a federal parastatal and claiming he wants the same salary/promotion with Engineers.

jp philips:


I completely disagree with the bold part, the OP has no point to use the word "essential", truth be told, Nigerians have a way of looking for sympathy where there is none in the first place.

The polys were created for a reason same for the Uni's therefore, if a man sayeth he joinest either one, he has himself to blame not the system.
I ve not researched WES, but in Nigeria here, the polys were meant to serve a technical purpose, but what we see are people who want to do white collar jobs with a technical certificate, isn't that a misplaced priority?

on the grounds of discrimination, i dont really want to call it discrimination but i call it reality and it has been here even before the OP was born, the point here is, people look for easy choices but wanna get sympathy when they are caught up with its consequences.

Instead of taking Jamb, you opt for a poly Jamb, then what? and you still wanna be apar with people who made a different choice?

Today, instead of kids studying to pass jamb, they say no, they stick to BBA and facebook, next their parents will send them to charge and bail universities in Ghana and other poorly rated Scandinavian countries where they get a sub standard degree at a high cost.

My point is, you cannot fool yourself and expect to be pitied.

Kwame Nkurumah university in Ghana was rated 63rd in Africa, yet people go and pay as much as $2,500 per term to send their wards there, meanwhile back home here, OAU is occupying the 10th position and far cheaper, but because the kids don't want to study, we take the easy way out, of course you don't need jamb to study in that Ghananian university.

most employers are reviewing these certificates and of course the victims will cry, "discrimination", i heard even govt agencies like NSCDC have started sacking or demoting people with sub standard foreign certificates (due to the oga at the top scandal, i guess) it wont take long before other private emplyers follow suit, is it really discrimination? or a brazen abuse of common sense?
"what thou sowest thou reapest.'"

back to the polytechnic issue, most polytechnic graduates in Nigeria dont even know what they are supposed to be doing in life, the guy that does art works, painting and sculptor for us graduated from yaba tech and he came highly recommended not just by people who have seen his skills first hand but the natural testimony of his works,
I see his invoices and he earns good money, what is a mechanical technician looking for in a Bank?

Nigeria is a very big market which is lacking in craftsmanship, check it, any handi work you wish to do from furniture maker, to mechanic to builder to electrician just name it, you hardly get good ones, so i have no doubt in my mind that our trained technicians have a very large market only if they will apply the knowledge they have gotten.

An electrical technician wants to work in a bank, insurance house etc, that is total misplaced priorities and that is what the poly guys are suffering not discrimination.

Employers, BSc, Beng are subtly telling the tech guys, "go ye into the field and use thy hands". I share that sentiment also.

I want a mechanical technician to have the capacity to fix cars,
I want Fine and applied technicians to have the capacity to paint houses and inject innovation into it,

not sitting lame duck in a federal parastatal and claiming he wants the same salary/promotion with Engineers.