Nigeria has gotten so bad to the point we cannot even produced graduate who can think beyond their limited environment, in other part of the world, no case of discrimination btw B.sc and h.n.d has been recorded but only in Nigeria and even consider that non of this tittles was established by Nigeria. Does arise the question why always Nigerians? to start with, B.sc and H.n.d are not the same based on the role they are meant to play in the educational system, whereas one has to do with invention and generation of ideas(B.sc), while the other is to bring this ideas and invention to life (H.n.d). to empathized the importance of this two sectors, all the developed countries of the world has developed based on technical grounds, imagine us development without his technical work force, Japan, Russia, China, Uk and the rest. Imagine a graduate with an Ond background before proceeding to acquire his/her B.sc, what you will have is fine graduate that can hold their own anywhere in the world. in my own opinion, this discrimination has no basis...... go to MTN and other telecommunications firms today in Nigeria and check all their experts, go to various banks in Nigeria today check their Indian guys, majority of them graduated from quality technical institutions.

zebra: Guy, pls find out the meaning of equality and equivalence. Let me give u an example. A Sqn Ldr in the Air Force is equivalent to a Major in the Army. The two ranks belong to 2 different branches of the armed forces, but yet are equivalent by level. The two ranks cannot be said to be the samething but equivalent.

Every word is defined by the context of its usage.Mind you,equivalence can be used as a direct substitute of equality in some context.When you say A is equivalent to B,you most likely mean A gives a similar,or identical effect to B.

Going by your definiton of equivalence,it means A produces a similar,but not identical effect as B,albeit in a different situation.In a nutshell,I think since,according to you,the two certificates are not equal,but equivalent,they should not serve the same purpose.

This statement that HND holders are good in practicals is just an overhyped statement. Who could boldly say they had serious practical -i.e field work on their course? All are just the past glory of the polytechnics we used to know. The lecturer are too busy that lectures itself is difficult atimes, not to now talk of Field work. Also, the university treat deeply what the polytechnic takes on the surface. I posted this after experiencing the two system, so I'm not just posting this to hat the other. The two were established for different purposes.

mubitechnology: hnd and degree will not determine my destiny in life,am pround computer engineering student from kaduna polytechnic,and in regard to d issue of math,i did algbra in math112 during my first semester,

Basic algebra, right?

In final year, you'll do advanced algebra.

In a university, you'll do both of them at the same time. First year, first semester things

Sadly, experience has shown that most educational bodies and accreditation agencies are manned by people who have no business being in such places. Grossly unqualified and incompetent. It is only in Nigeria that an HND program lasts for longer than 2/3 years. Quoting from the Wikipedia page someone referred to earlier, "An HND takes two years of full-time study, or one year full-time following successful completion of a Higher National Certificate; part-time study takes longer" . So if our people think right, they won't expect you to spend five year on a course and say it is of less value than a four year course. But this is Nigeria. Poo happens.

destino24:

NBTE??
I'm not going to ask you to check the NUC website.

Check COREN's website.

AdekunleBalogun: NIGERIA HAS GOTTEN SO BAD TO THE POINT WE CANNOT EVEN PRODUCED GRADUATE WHO CAN THINK BEYOND THEIR LIMITED ENVIRONMENT, IN OTHER PART OF THE WORLD, NO CASE OF DISCRIMINATION BTW B.SC AND H.N.D HAS BEEN RECORDED BUT ONLY IN NIGERIA AND EVEN CONSIDER THAT NON OF THIS TITTLES WAS ESTABLISHED BY NIGERIA. DOES ARISE THE QUESTION WHY ALWAYS NIGERIANS? TO START WITH, B.SC AND H.N.D ARE NOT THE SAME BASED ON THE ROLE THEY ARE MEANT TO PLAY IN THE EDUCATIONAL SYSTEM, WHEREAS ONE HAS TO DO WITH INVENTION AND GENERATION OF IDEAS(B.SC), WHILE THE OTHER IS TO BRING THIS IDEAS AND INVENTION TO LIFE (H.N.D). TO EMPATHIZED THE IMPORTANCE OF THIS TWO SECTORS, ALL THE DEVELOPED COUNTRIES OF THE WORLD HAS DEVELOPED BASED ON TECHNICAL GROUNDS, IMAGINE US DEVELOPMENT WITHOUT HIS TECHNICAL WORK FORCE, JAPAN, RUSSIA, CHINA, UK AND THE REST. IMAGINE A GRADUATE WITH AN OND BACKGROUND BEFORE PROCEEDING TO ACQUIRE HIS/HER B.SC, WHAT YOU WILL HAVE IS FINE GRADUATE THAT CAN HOLD THEIR OWN ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD. IN MY OWN OPINION,THIS DISCRIMINATION HAS NO BASIS...... GO TO MTN AND OTHER TELECOMMUNICATIONS FIRMS TODAY IN NIGERIA AND CHECK ALL THEIR EXPERTS, GO TO VARIOUS BANKS IN NIGERIA TODAY CHECK THEIR INDIAN GUYS, MAJORITY OF THEM GRADUATED FROM QUALITY TECHNICAL INSTITUTIONS.

Maybe your post would have made sense if it wasnt all written in block form

Olugbenger:

From admission process and criteria, it's already been established.

What few are you talking about?


I advise you face reality.

I wonder ooo.

230 for any engineering discipline in a university

170 for any engineering discipline in a polytechnic

230 and 170 na the same

It's annoying seeing threads like this from time to time, opened by HND graduates who have now resorted to lies, hear-says and half truths. We've been hearing.... HND folks are more exposed to pratical than Bsc chaps, they are this and that etc.....most of which are false.

I've met enough of polygraduates to know when some facts are over rated. Only few polythenic graduates from Yabatech and Co are credible enough to produce graduates worthy of comparison with those from universities in various fields. The rest are crap, and by crap i mean really crappy.

I think the basis of most comparisons have really been unfair to the university folks, probably because of the bad Eggs or halfbaked chaps or backward institutions products among them who are then used in reference to outstanding polygraduates. Sympathy too, plays a very dirty part too if you understand what i mean.


I don't see things changing either. I rememeber Oronsaye commitee saying the right thing.

both should be seen as equal.

hyelhira: Sadly, experience has shown that most educational bodies and accreditation agencies are manned by people who have no business being in such places. Grossly unqualified and incompetent. It is only in Nigeria that an HND program lasts for longer than 2/3 years. Quoting from the Wikipedia page someone referred to earlier, "An HND takes two years of full-time study, or one year full-time following successful completion of a Higher National Certificate; part-time study takes longer" . So if our people think right, they won't expect you to spend five year on a course and say it is of less value than a four year course. But this is Nigeria. Poo happens.

Read the contents of the links below, COREN did not write them

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Higher_National_Diploma

Also check out

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engineering_technologist

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engineer

I have an OND and a BSc and these are what I have been able to find out over time
Our higher educational syatem is modelled after that of the UK, under this system a HND no matter the grade is equivalent to a University pass .

While the UK has since done away this setting since 1992 and has even empowered polythecnics to award degrees , Nigeria has not .

Tho most painful part is that we have a perfect structur to e still follow suit with the English system , Yabatech can be affilated to Unilag where they can offer joint degree courses or more , same goes for Laspotech and LASU, Ibadan polythecnic and University of Ibadan and so on .

What is the bone of contention here?
Very foolish nigerian youths arguing on who's qualification is better, instead of us look to for a way to move this great nation to it permanent site we are here fighting each other over western education..

Equal or not, most successful people in the world today are drop outs, I.e they don't even have hnd or bs.c to boast of but they put food on the table of the so-called graduates (men in suit works for men in jeans)

And if I may ask, where is this argument leading to? Is it just to ascertain whose qualification is higher? Ok! Bs.c is higher, I guessed all the bs.c holders on nairaland must have received a bank alert.....foolish graduates. Its just bs.c you have and and hnd you have and you're here condemning each others qualification, maybe you didn't hear of "dangote" truck drivers recruitment, how many bs.c and masters holders applied even "doctor"

I'm an hnd holder by the way and done school and I will never go back to school becuz some youth said my qualification is not enough cuz even with your masters there's no job out there for you, what's matters most is that whatever is been done to bs.c the same is to hnd, you serve and I also serve "you will be think clamoring on where I'm coming from when I will over take you"

Keep on fighting yourself owk,
Foolish graduate

bsc alone= HND+pgd

jasperkrekre: bsc alone= HND+pgd

@OP Do not expect Nigerian bachelor's degree holders to agree with your assertion. The average Nigerian bachelor's degree holder sees the HND holder as a threat! So whenever the evil of HND discrimination is exposed, expect resistance from some insecure and inferior university graduates. The Nigerian HND is equivalent to bachelor's degree. That's a fact established not only by WES but also other credible International Credentials Evaluation Service providers. There are many misconceptions about the Nigerian HND:

1. Some confuse it with the BTEC HND in the UK. The BTEC HND is equivalent to the Nigerian ND (National Diploma) instead. It takes an unbiased mind to figure this out.
2. It is believed generally that the admission requirements into Polytechnics are usually lower than that of the universities. This is only true for the NATIONAL DIPLOMA programme of some Polytechnics. There are some Universities that admit candidates with lower requirements too. However, no Polytechnic will admit a candidate deficient in any of his/her O'level requirements to its Higher National Diploma programme.
3. Similarly, it is believed that Polytechnics teach practicals only. Practicals are only emphasised in the Polytechnics unlike Universities that dwell more on theories. In the Polytechnics, the curriculum is 60% practicals, 40% theory while the opposite is the case in Universities. Students are required to take elective courses too in the Polytechnics.
4. Lastly and the most painful misconception is the belief that the average Polytechnic graduate is less intelligent and therefore considered inferior to his/her University counterpart. That's nonsense! In saner climes, graduates are judged on their own merit.

The source of the discrimination against HND is rooted in the law establishing Nigerian Polytechnics and the emphasis Nigeria as a nation places on NOMENCLATURE! In Nigeria, an institution of higher learning cannot offer degree programmes unless it carries the name 'University'. This is why the HND programme was termed a 'Diploma' programme when it was conceived. The issue of discrimination would have been averted had it been it was termed a B.Tech degree programme from inception.

kayusbrown: .

Why you come comot all that your gibberish?

destino24:

Engineering bro, everything i have said here is all based on my knowledge of engineering

From the way you are sounding, you must be an undergraduate..

My last post has answered this. The links below describe the structure and characteristics of a UK HND which is fundamentally different from the Nigerian version. The curriculum designers in Nigeria should restructure the HND programme to three years and stop wasting people's time. Then, I will agree that HND is not equivalent to BSc.

destino24:

Read the contents of the links below, COREN did not write them

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Higher_National_Diploma

Also check out

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engineering_technologist

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engineer

I always laugh when I hear HND engineering guys say they are better than Bsc in terms of practicals as if they have met all Bsc engineering guys. Note that, I am not discriminating as I intend to employ both Bsc and HND on same level as long as they can do the work when I am solid enough to float my Engineering company but come on that practical thing is pure nonsense.

Olugbenger: I can only pity HND folks here. Most of them are chaps the univeristies reject and they knew what they got into exactly. So why all these complaints now? What is WES? What is the Op saying?
The employers decide the judgement and we all know what it is.

The bolded assumption is wrong in all ramifications.

All these talk about Algebra, Calculus bla bla bla will not save your a.SS if as the head of a division you can't achieve simple engineering tasks. By then no one will ask wether you are HND or Bsc, they will just tell you that you are incompetent and if care is not taken you are FIRED. You can't be working for me as an Electrical engineer brandishing First Degree and Master's from M.I.T, USA yet you don't know how to troubleshoot or worse still use a multimeter. YES, I have met and seen E.E grads (Bsc and HND) who can't use one.

If you are HND get a PGD and be practical oriented, If you are Bsc that's not the end of the world be practical oriented too. Help yourself climb the ladder of success and let the unserious ones keep arguing about Bsc and HND stereotypes.

hyelhira: My last post has answered this. The links below describe the structure and characteristics of a UK HND which is fundamentally different from the Nigerian version. The curriculum designers in Nigeria should restructure the HND programme to three years and stop wasting people's time. Then, I will agree that HND is not equivalent to BSc.

Bros, you do realise its the same UK system we are running, right?
UK has since changed that system.

What else can i say than E - FIGHT

kevoh: I always laugh when I hear HND engineering guys say they are better than Bsc in terms of practicals as if they have met all Bsc engineering guys. Note that, I am not discriminating as I intend to employ both Bsc and HND on same level as long as they can do the work when I am solid enough to float my Engineering company but come on that practical thing is pure nonsense.


The bolded assumption is wrong in all ramifications.

All these talk about Algebra, Calculus bla bla bla will not save your a.SS if as the head of a division you can't achieve simple engineering tasks. By then no one will ask wether you are HND or Bsc, they will just tell you that you are incompetent and if care is not taken you are FIRED. You can't be working for me as an Electrical engineer brandishing First Degree and Master's from M.I.T, USA yet you don't know how to troubleshoot or worse still use a multimeter. YES, I have met and seen E.E grads (Bsc and HND) who can't use one.

Truancy and general unseriousness in students is present in all educational institution, whether university, polytechnic or monothecnic

[quote author=destino24]Maybe in another profession but in Engineering, its a NO!.Uninformed people like u makes me to laugh.As a product of a university and a Polytechnic,l make bold to say that there ain't no difference btw them and that they are equal.Eductional Politics is reponsible for the dichotomy btween HND&BSC and it's time the government removed this and release the white paper on the issue.Poly graduate are not inferior to their university countepart.I remember attending an interview with many engineering graduate fr the university and poly with masters degree.The guy that was employed had HND(ENG'RG),he beat over 20 candidates hands down because of his knowledge and xposure.Of what use is your engineering degree if you can't solve societal problem.Nigeria shd move from paper qualification to what you can offer to the society.

[quote author=Duke007][/quote]

Uninformed, huh?

OK

are you ready to admit and accept that an OND holder of engineering is equal with its HND counterpart

Nb:
B. Eng = engineer
HND = Technologist
OND = Technician
ND or Vocational training = Artisan/Craftsman

Let me "chip-in" on this arguement:

EQUALITY and EQUIVALENCE?
Equality means "same".
Equivalence means you can substitute one for the other.

So, w.r.t. HND and B.Sc, can you "substitute" an HND graduate (same discipline) to do the work of a B.Sc graduate? (l like the Airforce Squadron Leader Vs. Army major analogy! )
The answer is a big NO. I will justify that position shortly.

As regards "equality" we can look at it/analyse it from the perspective of "equality of all academic processes leading to the award of both degrees":

1.) Instructors: Since it is the "lecturers" that create the eventual HND/BSc degree holders through 'teaching', l consider the "quality of the instructors", most important, in such scenario.
Now, in Universities, a Doctorate Degree holder is a "junior lecturer". Most substantive lecturers are either long-term PhD holders or Professors.
In a Polytechnic, most lecturers are Masters degree holders, the very few PhD holders amongst them are either Rectors or Departmental Heads. Professors are very very rare, if you would find one at all!
So, in terms of quality of lecturers, Polys are way behind and are not equal to Universities and therefore CANNOT BE EQUIVALENT!

2.) Infrastructures: You need "physical structures" to create a conducive learning environment for optimum learning. I wont say much on this, just go around our "major" Universities and Polys and you would not waste time to conclude that the "product of such environments" can ever be equal nor equivalent.

3.) Curriculum design: This is another very important difference between Universities and Polys.
For a "complete product life-cycle", you need DESIGNERS AND MANUFACTURERS.
These two stages of a product are completely different.
Uni graduates are geared/trained for "design" purposes while Poly graduates are geared for manufacturing purposes and this is reflected in their curriculum. I will give at least two examples to buttress this.

Take a vehicle for example. Most University "Engineering" lecturers cannot even service their own vehicle (they take them to artisans/mechanics! ). Why is this? The reason is that their training is based on "Design concept". It is theoretically based for "research and development" .... all theoretical!
Practical experience is limited but this is deliberate and "advancement in science" is based squarely on research, which is what a University graduate is trained for.
A Poly graduate of the same field on the other hand, is trained for "manufacture" of the product designed by his University counterpart. He is very much "practical oriented" and does the "dirty job"! Where and while his University counterpart cannot "convert research" into "real life product", he is able to bring such design concept to life through "physical actions".
He can go under the hood and repair that same vehicle his Uni counterpart cannot repair .... but he cant design the same vehicle or improve on the design, to produce newer and more efficient model, like his Uni counterpart can easily do.

But at the end of the day, both Uni Graduates and Poly graduates are (supposed to be) doing a COMPLEMENTARY ROLE in the business environment.

Another example is that of the building occupation.
A University trained Architect will design a building or project but he does not necessarily need to know how to hold a spade or trowel.
His emphasis is on structural stability, aesthetics, functionality, wind tunnel-testing and adjustment, e.t.c.
Having done his design on paper, he passes the work unto his Poly counterpart.

His Poly mate will now take that "paper design" and make a "real building" out of it by bringing blocks, mortars and iron into a combination that springs-up a building. A Poly graduate cant actually do the design and where he attempts it, it is always very poor.

Now, l guess l wont be the only one who had noticed the difference in "finesse" between a Poly graduate and a University graduate?
It is because you cant expect someone who was trained with "practical" in mind, to be equivalent or the same as someone who was trained with "theory" in mind.
Even their spoken English would easily give them out as l have had reason over the years to interview both graduates at various levels of employment and l can tell you, spoken English is the first thing that gives them out.

I appreciate both of them and will never substitute a University graduate (no matter how good he thinks he is) for jobs/positions that l know are best suited for a Poly graduate ... and vice versa.
Their roles are COMPLEMENTARY, not equal and not equivalent.

Lastpage!

Caveat: I hold multiple higher-level degrees from "University" but l try not to be biased.

oluakadinma: HND and B.Eng are not thesame and can never be.

The work of a B.eng can never be assigned to technologist even in US. Your comparison is liken to a brick layer who suddenly turn to contractor and can build a confortable four-storey building but that does not make him a civil engineer. Yes he does the work of a civil engineer but he has a limitations: he can't even think sky crapper! That's just the difference. They may be eQuivalent but not equal.
One has limit but the other is unlimited.

I Hope a cleared your doubts?

Its not cleared yet...most of the working skills a bricklayer acquire the civil engineer can't try that.he can only dish out instructions and get contract but needs the help of the skilled apprentice(Bricklayer,carpenter etc) to carry out the work

In Nigeria federal civil service, HND is equivalent to BSc

Sorry, you can't make HND equal to a Bachelor's through the backdoor. This PDP ogboju won't work. You know what you signed for right from the admission process when you opted for a Polytechnic and not a University. Nigerians should stop bastardizing everything just for the sake of it. If you want a Bachelor's degree IN NIGERIA, then go to a university. The admission process is not even near the same level. The curriculum is different in content and in context - and in fields like Engineering, a Technologist (HND) is not an Engineer (B.Sc/B.Tech/B.Eng). If you are capable of being an Engineer and you opted to go and become a Technologist, that is your choice.
Engineers are at the highest level of the pyramid in Engineering profession - and they could be designers, researches, project leaders etc - they are behind the design and management of the Engineering process making use of the lower level professionals to develop better processes;
Followed by Technologists (HND) - they are at the highest level of the practical processes in the Engineering field;
and then by Technicians (OND/Technical College graduates/Vocation school graduates/Machinists/Welders etc) - they handle the practical processes.
At the lowest level are the artisans - lower level welders, machinists etc without any formal education. Mostly these are the best hands in terms of 'practical' processes.
This was defined by COREN a long time ago and it's still the case.

abacus Cm: I am both B.sc and HND graduate.I discovered that HND courses are more technical and practical than B.sc courses.Both suppose to be equivalent and this discrimination should stop henceforth.

If your claim is true, then it's sad you did not spot the difference. HND programs are designed for the doing class while Background programs are designed for the thinking class. The key is the orientation of the training. They are not interchangeable. Outside Nigeria education is business. Any decent thing to secure your fees is good

What is d argument about, ђέή we all know that HND is far better than BSC in experience, aΩ̴̩̩̩̥d̶̲̥̅̊ skills. Plz BSC holders don't use Nigeria as a shield to cover the fact that 4 years is not enough to fit in, in our country Nigeria. The fact remains that FG does not knw anything about development in education so let's stop this talk aΩ̴̩̩̩̥d̶̲̥̅̊ face it D̶̲̥̅̊A̶̲̅τ̲̅ both r gud but HND has better products to offer. I remember during my one year Industrial Attachment, a BSE holder could not draft a Formal letter! ​»̶-̶̶ †̥ånKz-►!

BLaaaa erwher for no reason shld stop abeg@op u shld knw u are in naija nau bsc in naija is a boss to hnd(real fact)we re not in d states here,I'm not saying HND is therefore sh1t though bside evn in d us sef d population of those in colleges/uni's is far greater dan dat of poly so wut does dat spell?

destino24:

Basic algebra, right?

In final year, you'll do advanced algebra.

In a university, you'll do both of them at the same time. First year, first semester things

highly unlikely. you learn the basic before the advanced not both at the same time