Chxta:

Alex Cunninham showed more effective ways to remove an enemy's means and will to fight than either appeasment or devastation.

There normally are better ways, but given the nature of the opponent and the overal political context, I don't see many other options. I would be very interested to see another option though.

i was in lebanon earlier in the summer. beautifu place. i think Chirac was right. lebanon's economy has done better than that of isrel for d last 3 years, so their objective in this war is economic. they were justlooking for a chance. hezbolla gave it to them.

Giorgio:

i was in lebanon earlier in the summer. beautifu place. i think Chirac was right. lebanon's economy has done better than that of isrel for d last 3 years, so their objective in this war is economic. they were justlooking for a chance. hezbolla gave it to them.

Any evidence for that statement? Seems very far-fetched.

Giorgio:

http://www.napavalleyregister.com/articles/2006/07/21/news/world/iq_3526134.txt

Doesn't provide any evidence for your statement that their objective in this war is economic

Giorgio:

i was in lebanon earlier in the summer. beautifu place. i think Chirac was right. lebanon's economy has done better than that of isrel for d last 3 years, so their objective in this war is economic. they were justlooking for a chance. hezbolla gave it to them.

LOL. Sheesh!

THE ISRAELI OFFENSIVE: MIGHT IS RIGHT?

Continuous conflict in the Middle-East has become routine so much that when a lull is observed it becomes an aberration. The current cycle is between Israel and Hezbollah in Lebanon with the world being treated to spectacular fire-power and determinism by the Jewish State to bury anti-Semitic thoughts of annihilating the state of Israel. Lebanon in this process is caught in the middle of the exchanges resulting in the massive destruction of infrastructure, residential houses and massacre of human lives: all a collective punitive measure for the crime of a few!

There is of course nothing new about the bad blood existing between some Arabs and the Jews. Transparently the United States has never hidden her support for Israel even when the latter's response is completely disproportionate to the causal factors as observed for this latest offensive. However morality and human conscience cannot be obfuscated by those wielding superior military machines. The will of man must speak truth to power and it must echo the truth as succinctly stated in Soyinka's classic book: "The Man Died: " … the man in him dies who keeps quiet in the face of tyranny." In essence this means that humanity dies when the world is helpless in situations of grave recklessness occasioned by hubris, self-righteousness, racial superiority and military might.

Writing this was preceded by thoughts of Israel's side-stepping of the normal modes of diplomatic niceties in situations of kidnappings, demands and ultimatums before resort to inflicting maximum damage. Has Israel exploited available channels to pressurize the Hamas and Hezbollah to hand over soldiers kidnapped? Was a report lodged at the United Nations about this provocation by the Hezbollah militias? Was the Lebanese government given adequate time to use own internal security and diplomatic machinery to secure the release of these kidnapped soldiers? Or, are there unknown factors to the observer world that are goading the Olmert government in Israel to pursue a maniacal plan to sow bitterness in the hearts of Lebanese (current and future) and other Arabs? One wonders about what happened to the wise admonition to be at peace with one's neighbors.

True, the convoluted developments in the Middle-East cannot be solely placed at the door steps of either Arabs or Israelis. They are historical, offshoots of colonialism and psychological and moral burden of World War II. The world helped in creating the problem and it is the world that must come to grips with the solution. None of the belligerent parties can win the peace except mutual trust cum adequate dosage of respect prevails in that region. As it is, these are lacking.

Definitely the semblance of peace enjoyed in the Middle-East has been shattered in the current conflict. Any subsequent ceasefire cannot erase the memory of the latest high-handed attack by Israel in Lebanon. The polarization of nation states into 'strong' and 'weak' ones has become more evident. And the implication of the latter for world peace is better imagined, especially when viewed against the background that Syria was expelled from Lebanon by a middle-class demonstration after the assassination of Rafik Hariri. This paved way for a democratic government that is barely one-year old and which is still struggling to walk the talk. Could it therefore mean that Syria was manipulated to leave Lebanon for a future Israeli occupation? Your answer is as good as mine.

A precedent is being laid. It is a signal that 'might is right', and this beckons to other nation states to massively invest in weapons of self-defense for deterrent purposes. No wonder the Korean government and other strong-willed leaders of the world are not paying attention to big brother's ranting of non-nuclear proliferation. Current flattening of Lebanese houses, knocking off bridges, massacres of innocent civilians and bombing of roads are good ammunitions in the hands of hawks in governments all over the world. Consequently, the United Nations might soon become a fire brigade outfit rather than an organization for preventing the type of diabolical recklessness observed in the current Israeli/Hezbollah conflict.

The US and British governments who hitherto enjoyed some trust in the region are apparently taking it 'cool.' This is not surprising considering the deception in which these governments took their countries to war with Iraq. Governments with moral turpitude are surely not assets to mediate in such a crisis. This was manifested at the G-8 meeting in St. Petersburg, Russia, early this week, when Bush and Blair adopted a casual disposition to the latest offensive in Lebanon by unwittingly declaring that the UN is a pawn in their geo-political chess game. The world awaits the next diplomatic shuttle by the UN Secretary-General and wish Lebanon and Israel well.

Finally, no party will gain from the outcome of this latest offensive by Israel as any success will, at best, be a pyrrhic one. The moral mathematics of the bombardments just does not add up. Peaceful co-existence in line with "do unto your neighbor as you will do unto yourself" is the answer, and not sowing seeds of hatred.


http://nigeriaworld.com/columnist/nwabuzor/072006.html

Larufa:

THE ISRAELI OFFENSIVE: MIGHT IS RIGHT?

[SNIP]


http://nigeriaworld.com/columnist/nwabuzor/072006.html

Some columnist should better keep their opinions to themselves if they have nothing to contribute

Taking sides in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is a tough thing to do. While it might be easy for those who are fed by American mainstream media reports to believe that Israel is right and the Palestinians wrong, the truth is much deeper.

The problem in the Middle East persists because since the State of Israel was violently created in 1948--largely by the efforts of the United States and Great Britain--the voiceless predominantly Arab Palestinians have had no where to turn to. Many of these Palestinians were forcibly removed from their homes—an act driven by a pseudo-religious belief that Palestine was the God-promised ancestral homeland of the Jews.

There were Jewish terrorist organizations, which worked with Zionists to see that as much Arabs as possible were driven away from Palestine, while Jews all over the world were invited to return. And in 1948, Israel was created. This Israel had the character of a Jewish State and an Arab minority.

Isn't it logical that most Arab governments, embittered by what happened in Palestine, chose not to recognize the State of Israel? Some have described the creation of Israel in Palestine as the worst blunder of the latter half of the twentieth century, for ever since it happened, that region has known no peace. But with American and British support, it appeared that Israel had come to stay. United Nations resolutions affirm its right to exist, a right which every modern nation states should respect.

All too often Israel is portrayed as a secular moderate republic by the mainstream American media, while Palestine is viewed as an aggressive and unsustainable state. In 1998, the then Israeli Prime Minister, Benjamin Netanyahu came on CNN to clearly state that he did not believe in the creation of a Palestinian state. A large fraction of Netanyahu's Likud party (an extremist group in my opinion) holds a similar view, though according to this Wikipedia article, Ariel Sharon changed Likud's official policy with regard a Palestinian statehood.

However, it appears that even Sharon could not placate the more extreme members of Likud, which led him to create the Kadima party in late 2005. In other words, there is a powerful force in Israeli politics that is doing everything possible to see that Palestine never exists—contrary to United Nations resolutions. This force is the Israeli equivalent of Hamas and Hezbolla, the only difference being that it has American weapons to fight with and the American mainstream media is more sympathetic to its cause, making it appear morally superior.

While Israel preaches peace, it continues to flout United Nations resolutions by building settlements in the West Bank or Palestine if you prefer. Gaza, the most congested nation on earth is like a refugee camp. From the look of things, it is either that Israel doesn't want peace or that it is not willing to compromise. Before we can start talking about peace in the Middle East, Israel must cease all settlements in the West Bank and abide by outstanding United Nations resolutions. It must also dismantle the apartheid wall it is currently building, by which it covertly steals land from the Palestinians. A growing number of Arab countries have indicated their willingness to recognize Israel if it returns to the pre-1967 border.

Destroying the infrastructure of Lebanon isn't going to achieve much. It would surely not make Israel any safer. The disproportionate use of force in Lebanon clearly shows that this isn't about Hezbollah having captured two Israeli soldiers. From the look of things, support for Hezbollah has been on the increase in Lebanon since the bombing started, even amongst factions of Lebanon's 40% Christian population (who generally hold Hezbollah in contempt). Hezbollah isn't a political party per se that could easily be destroyed. It is like a movement, an ideology, formed in 1982 to drive Israeli forces out of Lebanon.

Israel is gradually driving itself into isolation on the international scene. For now, it does what it wants because the United States (the most powerful nation in the world) stands by its side. Fifty or sixty years from now, the tables may turn and Washington may have ceased dictating what goes on. All we hear from the United States now is that "Israel has a right to defend itself." Well, so do the Palestinians, a large part of whose land has been usurped by Israel. Until sanity and rationality are brought into resolving the surrounding issues, the fighting would go on and on. America may first have to lose its superpower status and its urge to control the world's oil resources for Middle East peace to be possible.

by Chippla

Erm, for those y'all who say all Northerners are dunces, Chippla is a Northerner. . .

Chxta,

The article you presented is very biased concerning the creation of the state of Israel. For exmple, the jishuv is not something that came into being in the interbellum, but is much older. Palestinian national consciousness is also something that mainly grew after the establishment of Israel. The collaboration of the Grand Mufti of jerusalem with the axis is also something that is overlooked by the pro-Palestian side.

I will give a more detailed reply later on.

I don't in anyway think that Israel's action is economic motivated. Rather I think its a case of them trying to defend theirselves. If only you 'd call to mind all the barage of suicide bombings by Hamas Aand Hezbollah then you'd know that the latest kidnappings were the last straw. Israel cannot be a siiting duck for terrorist. It has the right to defend itself from terror groups backed by Syria and Iran.
Well who is worse off today? The Lebanese! They should have done more to protect themselves earlier by not allowing terror groups to stay in their country. IT'S A PITY CIVILLIANS ARE AFFECTED! Real Pity. But enough of the blame game.what's the way forward?

Israel wants the Arab world to recognize their right to exist, it would help if they worked something out with the Palestinians so that they had a clearly defined land mass they could call their country first, then perhaps the Arab world would not fund groups like Hezbollah and Hamas. You think these groups shell Israel because they are lunatics, or perhaps its in their blood? Israel is the "state" it is today due to systematic terrorist tactics that drove palestinians from their land, bulldozed their homes and imprisons and continues to imprison so called terrorists (insurgents) and militia groups through extraordinary rendition. Most Israeli right wingers could give less than 2 shits about a Palestinian state. Without world intervention or condemnation the right wing extremists that comprise alot of the officials presently in the Jewish Admin. would wipe out the remaining settlements through genocide. Most Israeli citizens actually want a 2 state solution, but ofcourse they are never heard. Ofcourse the same can be said about extremists on the palestinian side. But seriously can you blame them? A mandate set forth by colonial powers granted the right of Israel to exist as a state. Very similar to how the American colonies where formed. The genocide of the Native Indians that ensued to expand Eureopean settlement of the North Americas is viewed in history textbooks and romanticized, up to the point even in western movies and entertainment the native indians become the enemy (in their own land). Talk about spin. You think Hezbollah does what it does because they are scum that like to shell cities for the fun of it? You think they captured Israeli soldiers for the hell of it? The native indians that fought and died in the Americas to oppose western expansion, where they terrorists for fighting to stay in their land? The black south african groups that blew up dutch facilities and libraries to oppose apartheid, where they terrorists as well? If so then what where the agressors or expansionists, like the Europeans who slaughtered millions of Native Indians and virtually exterminated whole tribes and nations and made alot of tribes virtually extinct?

The pro Israeli stance of the US and other Western powers is disgusting. I mean lets be real. If the Native Indians started putting up a fight in an attempt to reclaim back the land Bush would call them terrorists. Ofcourse they might lose and die in droves but in my eyes it would be entirely justified. Ofcourse the political and reasonable and peaceful thing to do in such a situation would be to have Americans and Native Indians coexist through talks with a third party and a fair distribution of land and reparations (and no, Indian Reservations (the equivellant of the Palestinian settlements is fair and equitable). The extremists palestinians labeled terrorists and backwards by most of the west who want and end to israel in my opinion have every right to even though it is not feasible and it would cause bloodshed. In Principle they have that right. Why countries like the US, who take the high gound on morality, cannot see this fact, amazes me. The most disgusting set of people within the two sides in the Palest-Israeli conflict are the extremist right wing Zionists who do not even think Palestine has a right to exist, and started putting up a wall to demarcate themselves and carve out territory and use the excuse of "terrorism" to justify such backwards, middle age tactics. Talk about antiquated thinking,

And this did not start with the capture of one soldier. ARE YOU KIDDING ME? DO YOU GUYS KNOW ANY HISTORY ABOUT THE REGION THIS CONFLICT IS HAPPENING IN? CONTRARY TO WHAT ISREALI OFFICIALS WOULD HAVE YOU BELIEVE EVERYTHING WASNT PEACHES AND CREAM UNTIL HAMAS AND HEZBOLLAH CAPTURED THE SOLDIERS.

Who will stop the Israeli/ Hezbollah flued? It is getting crunching everyday?
Will UNO wake up to their duty? Or will the acclaimed world police perform?

Who will stop the Israeli/ Hezbollah flued? It is getting crunching everyday?
Will UNO wake up to their duty? Or will the acclaimed world police perform? 

Chxta:

All too often Israel is portrayed as a secular moderate republic by the mainstream American media, while Palestine is viewed as an aggressive and unsustainable state. In 1998, the then Israeli Prime Minister, Benjamin Netanyahu came on CNN to clearly state that he did not believe in the creation of a Palestinian state. A large fraction of Netanyahu's Likud party (an extremist group in my opinion) holds a similar view, though according to this Wikipedia article, Ariel Sharon changed Likud's official policy with regard a Palestinian statehood.

However, it appears that even Sharon could not placate the more extreme members of Likud, which led him to create the Kadima party in late 2005. In other words, there is a powerful force in Israeli politics that is doing everything possible to see that Palestine never exists—contrary to United Nations resolutions. This force is the Israeli equivalent of Hamas and Hezbolla, the only difference being that it has American weapons to fight with and the American mainstream media is more sympathetic to its cause, making it appear morally superior.

While such extremist views exist in Israeli society and politics, the difference is that they do not strap bomb belts on people and blow up restuarants, buses, and shops. Isreal is a secular state there is no doubt about that. At any one time it may be moderate or more fanatical (this depends on the government in power) towards it's Arab neighbours to the East and only to the East.

This is becos a state of war between these countries still exists, with Arab countries in this area still refusing to recognise Isreal as a country.

As you and I well know, those Arab countires neighbouring Isreal that have established normal relations with it namely, Egypt and Kigdom of Jordan have themselves recently been victims of suicide bombers. Are these countries also "Extreme and Rascist" to Arabs?

Terrorism has no morale cause. It only has morale excuses which it uses to justify it's acts. Tell me what morale rational militia will locate and fire rockets from with residential subhurbs. I just saw a video clip shot on the BBC showing Hezbolla rockets rising from a town towards Isreal. Of course 5-10 mins later the Isrealis bombed the location of the rocket launch.

shango:

Israel wants the Arab world to recognize their right to exist, it would help if they worked something out with the Palestinians so that they had a clearly defined land mass they could call their country first, then perhaps the Arab world would not fund groups like Hezbollah and Hamas.

Are you kidding me? The sole aim of Hamas and Hizbollah is to destroy Israel. The Iranian president, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad has said "Israel should "pack up" and move elsewhere"

shango:

You think these groups shell Israel because they are lunatics, or perhaps its in their blood? Israel is the "state" it is today due to systematic terrorist tactics that drove palestinians from their land, bulldozed their homes and imprisons and continues to imprison so called terrorists (insurgents) and militia groups through extraordinary rendition.

Both sides have committed horrible atrocities, so it's pointless blaming one side alone

shango:

Most Israeli right wingers could give less than 2 shits about a Palestinian state. Without world intervention or condemnation the right wing extremists that comprise alot of the officials presently in the Jewish Admin. would wipe out the remaining settlements through genocide. Most Israeli citizens actually want a 2 state solution, but ofcourse they are never heard. Ofcourse the same can be said about extremists on the palestinian side. But seriously can you blame them?

Can you blame the Israelis too, when Hizbollah's paymasters keep calling for Israel to be wiped off the face of the earth

shango:

You think Hezbollah does what it does because they are scum that like to shell cities for the fun of it? You think they captured Israeli soldiers for the hell of it?

The whole point of Hizbollah was to liberate southern Lebanon, Israel withdrew from this area in 2000 (apart from Shebaa farms which belongs to Syria not Lebanon) So why was Hizbollah still firing rockets into northern Israel, Why was Hizbollah moving long range missiles into the area. Why was the Lebanese Army not deployed into south Lebanon ? Why was Hizbollah the only militia group left while the others were dissolved?

Letter dated 2 April 2002 from the Permanent Representative of Israel to the United Nations addressed to the Secretary-General complaining about Hizbullahs attacks on Israel
http://domino.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/22f431edb91c6f548525678a0051be1d/bb095796d02d589785256b910058cc00!OpenDocument

Its unfortunate that innocent Lebanese civilians are suffering because of the actions of a crazy fanatic group that has no regard for its fellow citizens. What did Hizbollah expect when it attacked and captured Israel's soldiers?

Why have the lebanese army not flushed out the hezbollah terrorists from their country? I think it is because they cannot so they should be happy that the Isrealis are helping them out. Its a pity that this hezbollah people don't have liver; why are they using "innocent civilians" as a cover? The "innocent civilians" when they see rockets being launched at Isreal from their children's playgrounds, don't they know that there will be a retaliation and their children will die. The lebanese government should evacute all their citizens from southern Lebanon before they perish.

Some people suggested negotiations. When did we start negotiating with TERRORIST organisations why didnt America negotiate with Al Qaeda or Britain with the July 7 bombers the both took decisive actions and some civilians in Afghanistan had to suffer. Moreover Hamas and Hizbollah wants the total destruction of Israel from the world map and nothing less according to their individual charters so where do we start negotiating from If Lebanon can not take care of Hizbollah,Israel would help them to

When Iranian president said several times that he wants Israel (a recognised nation by the UN) to be wiped off the map nobody protested in the streets around the world Now Israel reacting to provocation by a terrorist organisation (according to UN) sponsored by Iran and everyone is screaming Hezbollah has a record of pioneering suicide bombing in 1983, Bombing targets as far as Argentina,Lauching rockets into Israel at will,Using INNOCENT CIVILIANS as shields and their homes as Armouries

GL you are A DARLING AND PLENTY OF THUMBS UP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!THe reality of the matter is; the Isrealis are trying to liberate themselves from the terrorists. America's stand in this issue is clear! Why sept 11? Have you ever thought of that? terrorism must stop in all parts of the world because people have the rights to live and to serve whatever GODS they wish. therefore it is my candid opinion that Hezbolla, Hamas and all the shit terrorists Group be DISARMED and allow people leave in peace.

There is nothing good in war - especially as shown on CNN. I sympathize with the lebanese woman in pink top who says stop the war. I think the lebanese women are prettier than their Isreali counterparts

can't somebody just talk sense to this isreali and lebanese? Must they continue in this world of peace with hostility and war?
Nairalanders, what is your view?

my view is that the isreali's are over reacting but then that is my view. at the end of the day it is all politics and only those involved actually know what is going on, i don't think the press can tell u everyrhing.

@egenash
politics?, well i'm of the opinion too but, time will tell.

look on the bright side, conflict in the middle east higher oil prices, foreign investors see the need to look for new oil elsewhere like nigeria etc. the bible will tell u alot about d middle east, i hear when we have peace in the middle east the world is coming 2 an end, and i definitely not ready 4 d end of d world. so i think d conflict is ok (they are very much used 2 it) as long as they don't throw nukes.

Felt that you guys have to see this site: http://www.fromisraeltolebanon.info/

I'm off to sleep at another meeting. Later y'all. . .

egenash:

i hear when we have peace in the middle east the world is coming 2 an end, and i definitely not ready 4 d end of d world. so i think d conflict is ok (they are very much used 2 it) as long as they don't throw nukes.

Are you serious? How old are you?

why do u ask, anyway i am 25 going 26.

My view is that both sides are full of idiots. And the US government are even bigger idiots for taking sides in this conflict. They have only succeeded in prolonging hostilities for another generation. . .

take it easy man things are the way they are supposed to b, don't get ur self worked up ova nothing.

Trust me, my dear, the last time I got worked up over anything at all was four years ago. . .

I am not worked up.