NativeBoy:

Yes circumcision was a big deal to God. It signified his covenant with Abraham and the children of Israel.
No, God didn't make it compulsory for the church but you are actually proving my point.
The tithe and circumcision predate the giving of the law.
Was Abraham under the law when he tithed? Or was he under duress?
No. He did it out if a free heart to honor God and because he knew that God would bless Him in turn.
The same thing for today's Christian: Tithing is not about whether there is or isn't a law.

Will a Christian be in danger of losing salvation because of not paying tithes?
No, but there are blessings associated with the tithe.
The Christian will simply not receive those blessings.
Just like circumcision. Christians don't have to circumcise themselves. It has nothing to do with salvation.
Yet, there are tremendous health benefits to circumcision.
If you do it, you receive it. If you don't do it, you don't receive it.

Bidam: Ask frosbel to give you the 50 pounds for d lies u called truth. You said zakat is voluntary, you never said it's not for every muslim another lie to save face.

Bidam: Ask frosbel to give you the 50 pounds for d lies u called truth. You said zakat is voluntary, you never said it's not for every muslim another lie to save face.

DrummaBoy:

Apparently, you are also free to think what you wish. Gospel living should be based on sound biblical inferences and not sentiments, thoughts or needs.

As much as I wish to overlook this statement of yours since it is not directed at me, I find my mind returning to it over and over. So let's deal with it.

My grouse with your statement is your inability to see the link btw tithing and circumcision, as directed by trustman.

You say circumcision had health benefits, so we should do it, abi?

Why does Paul and the other apostles disagree with you?

Like tithing today, circumcision was viewed as a path to salvation and the apostles discouraged this: Acts15.

Like tithing today, circumcision was a Jewish practice that had the potential of blurring the significance of the New Testament covenant in the mind of those who practised it: Phillipians 3:3.

Like tithing today, the apostle Paul would have had the strongest rebuke for those who tithed like he had for those who practiced curcumcision: Galatians 5:4

Like tithing today, Paul saw no benefit in curcumcision save that it brought men into bondage.

I was born to a Muslim father who circumcised me. I circumcised my son. We both did based on accepted health and cultural norms, and not based on faith.

So we return to a salient point and that is the motive behind our actions. Paul who discouraged circumcision, circumcised Timothy for a reason: motive.

As long as your tithing is faith based, anchored on Jewish doctrines and practices, it is wrong. Or better stll, the motive is wrong. If, however, your tithing is a commitment to giving, as much as you could also give any other percentage of your income, then it is right. And that also justifies those who do not tithe but give bc their giving is also a proprtion of what they have. Rendering your motive for doing it right.

The motive for tithing is what most anti tither question. As long as tithing is for

1. Blessings

2. Based on the Jewish doctrine and practice

3. To be in right standing with God

4. To make heaven

5. To ward off devourer, etc,

You are tithing with wrong motives.

Only one motive makes tithing right: a commitment to giving with no strings attached.

AlfaSeltzer: Another failed project.

DrummaBoy: @BabaGnoni,

I actually have a response for you there: permit me to play the devil's advocate for a minute: Romans 12:2 - the Christians obedience is his burnt offering to God.

End of advocacy.

Good. If the Christian's obedience is a burnt offering to God, then we can conclude that with the coming of the New Covenant, also came certain fundamental changes to some practices.

What was burnt offerings before, is today's obedience.

What were sacrifices before is today's praise and worship.

What was were Jewish tithing, first fruiting and offerings before, is today's free will giving.

I trust that our friend should have gotten the point by now.

frosbel:

How can a project be deemed a failure when it has not even started ?

smh

BabaGnoni:

OK, Abraham tithed and circumcised
He did it out if a free heart to honor God and because he knew that God would bless Him in turn
The same thing for today's Christian: Tithing (or circumcision) is not about whether there is or isn't a law
Will a Christian be in danger of losing salvation because of not paying tithes?
No, but there are blessings associated with the tithe. The Christian will simply not receive those blessings.

OK but then, in the same vein as above,
Noah, Abraham and the Isralites did burnt offering (i.e. Gen. 8:20, Gen. 22:13, Exodus 10:25-26, Exodus 20:24, Exodus 24:5, Exodus 32:6)
He did it out if a free heart to honor God and because he knew that God would bless Him in turn
The same thing for today's Christian: burnt offering is not about whether there is or isn't a law
Will a Christian be in danger of losing salvation because of no burnt offering?
No, but there are blessings associated with burnt offering. The Christian will simply not receive those blessings.

Just like circumcision or tithing, burnt offerings predated the giving of the law
Christians don't have to do burnt offerings. It has nothing to do with salvation.
Yet, there are tremendous health benefits to doing burnt offerings
If you do it, you receive it. If you don't do it, you don't receive it.

It seems to me then that:
it's now time for Christians to start bringing sheep, goats and bulls to the next church service & offer them as burnt offerings
so Christians can simply start to receive those burnt offering blessings
and not miss out on burnt offering's blessings similar to those associated with tithing and circumcision

NativeBoy:

I do not practice arguing with Christians. It undermines the mission to which we are called.

So my rebuttal will be brief and I will ask that you reread my post as I feel that I have been very clear. Tithing as well as circumcision are not commandments to non-Jews. I believe I was pretty clear in stating that.

You are mistaken in your interpretation of Paul's actions. Paul was against circumcision because the Jewish part if the church was making it a requirement for salvation and for being a true believer. You will find I have made no such remarks. In fact I have stated the contrary.

I believe you might want to rethink your list. If you are saying that taking an action because you know there are benefits associated with it somehow nullifies the action, then I wonder how you interpret a majority of scripture. Using the circumcision example, if my motive for doing it is because I know the health benefits, how is that wrong? If I tithe because I know God will bless me for doing so, how is that wrong? If I show mercy because I know God will show mercy, how is that wrong? If I forgive knowing that God will also forgive, well you get the point? Scripture is filled with doing things knowing that they please God. Nothing wrong with acting in accordance with that motive. The tithe is not compulsory but it is pleasing to God and there are benefits associated with it.

The benefits are in the list you made excepting 2,3, and 4. Abel and Abraham tithed before the giving of the law. Tithing won't put you right standing with God and won't take you to heaven.

BabaGnoni:

I too was playing Devil's advocate with our friend's quote
but hang on, you left out circumcision now

What was circumcision before, as in about cutting of flesh
is today's new creation, as in the cutting away of our sinful nature by Christ (i.e. Colossians 2:11 NLT)

NativeBoy:

You and I know that a lot of the burnt offerings were required for atonement and consecration and the like. Which have been perfected in Christ.

That said, the biblical principle is that the more you give, the more you receive. So you don't have to bring animals to your church come Sunday, but why not bless the church and your fellow saints by identifying what is needed and supply it. Buy some candy and snacks for the kids. Buy or make a meal for the elders or the whole church. Some fried rice, egusi, etc. There is a blessing associated with that.

NativeBoy:

You and I know that a lot of the burnt offerings were required for atonement and consecration and the like.
Which have been perfected in Christ.

That said, the biblical principle is that the more you give, the more you receive.
So you don't have to bring animals to your church come Sunday,
but why not bless the church and your fellow saints by identifying what is needed and supply it.
Buy some candy and snacks for the kids. Buy or make a meal for the elders or the whole church. Some fried rice, egusi, etc.
There is a blessing associated with that.

DrummaBoy:

... perfected in Christ...

ehen, now we are getting each other.

Jesus has fulfilled the Law and perfected its requirement in us.

If there are principles to be learnt from the law, how can you not understand that the principle behind tithing was giving?

The principle behind the Jewish ordinance of tithing food cannot be tithing money now.

Abi!

frosbel:

How can a project be deemed a failure when it has not even stated ?

smh

DrummaBoy:

... perfected in Christ...

ehen, now we are getting each other.

Jesus has fulfilled the Law and perfected its requirement in us.

If there are principles to be learnt from the law, how can you not understand that the principle behind tithing was giving?

The principle behind the Jewish ordinance of tithing food cannot be tithing money now.

Abi!

Gombs:

Cos, this won't exist outside Nairaland...I can bet my right arm.

Waiting to make alive this thread in 4months time...and asking "how far?"

Gombs:

Cos, this won't exist outside Nairaland...I can bet my right arm.

Waiting to make alive this thread in 4months time...and asking "how far?"

DrummaBoy:

Let's start from here. It's plain dishonesty to claim a dislike for argument but have no qualms responding to issues on nl. Whether argument or not, the aim is for the discussion to birth understanding.



I understood you then and understand you well enough now.



I agree with you. When I made those remarks I was responding to the general perspective on tithing and not necessarily yours here. True, you made no such remarks.



I do not get your point. Maybe I should rehearse my own point so you could get me.

My point is that the motive is what justifies the action. And my list was concerned with motives. I said that the motive behind circumcision is the reason the apostles jettisoned it. I also said I find the same motive behind tithing and thus the need to jettison it too. There is nothing wrong in doing a thing in religion that will benefit, my point is there everything wrong in tithing based on Jewish practices for blessing. I however made it clear in my last response that giving with no such strings attached (such strings being blessings as found in Malachi) is permissible. And going by Jesus admonitions in Luke 6, it is not wrong to give trusting God for a blessing but it certainly wrong to tithe, like the Jews did to get a blessing.



I am not sure about Abel tithing o, you may want to recheck that.

Abraham also carried out circumcision, burnt offerings and sacrifices, it doesn't it make them Christian practices.

As long as 1 and 5 on my list is still approved by you, my point is proven. You are tithing based on Malachi 3:8-10. A tithing that is [b]based on Jewish practice[/b]s and not on Christian giving.

NativeBoy:

Why not? We have a different economic system. One that's built entirely about money.

BabaGnoni:



^^^
Ah, so you too noticed that we've seemed to have gotten somewhere.

It is the same the biblical principle that negates tithing
Just as it sounds absurd bringing in animals to church come Sundays for burnt offering
so is tithing after what was done at Calvary (i.e. forget mentioning tithing, now, in the 21st century)
and to make it worse, tithing wasn't even done with money but we'll turn a blind eye to that aspect, for now.

Your comment "... the more you give, the more you receive... is a testament that tithing has outlived it's usefulness
and proves that free giving is supreme and superior

NativeBoy:

Again, tithing predates the nation of Israel. I definitely tithe based on Malachi 3. I'd be foolish not to when God promises that he will bless those who do so.

DrummaBoy:

Gombs, you can keep your right hand but this project will fly.

DrummaBoy:

Now let's not go there ra ra at all.

Before I proceed, let me refer you to our 58 days academic discussion on tithes. M4 did a sound analysis on tithe not being money. Weigh the arguments for and against and see that tithe being money was never and can never be scriptural:

www.nairaland.com/1548047/theological-discuss-tithing-rhymeyjohn-image123/6#20318249

frosbel:

You are in for a quick surprise !

NativeBoy:

Please explain how the work on the Christ negates tithing? Again tithing is free giving.? Was Abraham under a law before he tithed?

EMILO2STAY: you know am not like you dishonest tithe propenent who lie in the face of truth. I proved my point with wikipedia but you called it cut and paste, pls prove me wrong and stop talking too much like an angry woman.

Bidam: YAWNS. I get sick and bored when hungry folks like you jump on threads and spew lies without getting their facts straight. If na 50 bucks be your problem you can PM me.
This is straight from the so called wiki you said you quoted.
Zakāt (Arabic: زكاة‎ [zæˈkæːt], "that which purifies"[1]), or alms-giving is the practice of charitable giving by Muslims based on accumulated wealth, and is obligatory for all who are able to do so. It is considered to be a personal responsibility for Muslims to ease economic hardship for other Muslims and eliminate inequality for followers of Islam.[2] The practice is one of the Five Pillars of Islam.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zakat.

We are not talking about the point of COLLECTION here which you mischievously quoted to hide your lie but the NATURE of the zakat.

Zakat is one of the five pillars of Islam, and is expected to be paid by all practicing Muslims who have the financial means (nisab).[9] In addition to their zakat obligations, Muslims are encouraged to make voluntary contributions (sadaqat).[10].

The voluntary contribution is called sadaqah, Zakat is obligatory. P.S. your friends who are goading you on should take note.

You can verify through so many Islamic website...

EMILO2STAY: you are tired of arguing tithe now you want to argue about islamic zakat maybe you want to convert to islam and divert the lie of tithe in form of zakat. to islam. You said nothing with your post up there , your still yet to refute the fact that the zakat is not paid by every muslim.

Bidam: I am in a generous mood this evening. Pls do PM me for the 50 bucks.