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Re: Fatherhood Of Jesus ! by truthislight: 4:12pm On Jul 27, 2014 |
frosbel: ^^^^ Because Jesus had to come without inheriting the sin of Adam. 2 Likes |
Re: Fatherhood Of Jesus ! by ayoku777(m): 4:13pm On Jul 27, 2014 |
frosbel: ^^^^The WHY of it is relative in scripture, and most attempts to say why would be speculative at best. But, that the seed of the woman will bruise the head of the serpent is the first messianic prophesy in scripture. Gen 1v15 -I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shall bruise his heel. Every human being brought forth naturally is "the seed of the man" -because only men have seed naturally. Only someone born of a virgin can be referred to as "the seed of a woman". If Jesus didn't come from a virgin birth, if Mary had the help of Joseph or any man in bringing forth Christ, then Jesus is not the "seed of the woman". Hence, He's not the Messiah. Then we are still looking ahead to the fulfilment of the first Messianic prophesy. 2 Likes |
Re: Fatherhood Of Jesus ! by Goshen360(m): 4:18pm On Jul 27, 2014 |
frosbel: ^^^^ Because the seed of man, first Adam is corrupted. If Joseph has contributed, human race is still in a mess just like first Adam. Christ was called 2nd Adam, not because he was produced by first Adam or carry the corruptible nature but because he came to UNDO what was done by the first Adam. 1 Like |
Re: Fatherhood Of Jesus ! by Goshen360(m): 4:20pm On Jul 27, 2014 |
See as 3 of us answered frosbel same thing. I see frosbel getting in trouble with this thread. .... |
Re: Fatherhood Of Jesus ! by truthislight: 4:24pm On Jul 27, 2014 |
Goshen360: If only he will allow the consistency of the bible to influence him and not his personal Dogma. 2 Likes |
Re: Fatherhood Of Jesus ! by truthislight: 4:26pm On Jul 27, 2014 |
Goshen360: See as 3 of us answered frosbel same thing. I see frosbel getting in trouble with this thread. .... Frosbel will not get into trouble if he respects the bible. 2 Likes |
Re: Fatherhood Of Jesus ! by Goshen360(m): 4:29pm On Jul 27, 2014 |
truthislight: True 1 Like |
Re: Fatherhood Of Jesus ! by Goshen360(m): 4:37pm On Jul 27, 2014 |
truthislight: Plus, recently, I also began to slow down and RE STUDY the bible, checking everything i was ever taught as a young christian and checking word meanings in context. Also, since the new testament fulfilled the old, i use the new to interpret d old, giving the old proper light and understanding. This is what I expect or believe Christians should be doing, rightly dividing the word, not just mixture and mixed bags teachings that's not supposed to be in the church today. 2 Likes |
Re: Fatherhood Of Jesus ! by ayoku777(m): 4:50pm On Jul 27, 2014 |
Goshen360: So true. I'm doing that presently. And mehn, never knew I had so much tares in my wheat doctrine-wise. Now I have some fresh perspective about some previously held opinions and deeper insight into others. Knowledge is progressive, to be dogmatic about doctrine is a great disservice to one's spiritual progress. But change is scary to religious people. 3 Likes |
Re: Fatherhood Of Jesus ! by Goshen360(m): 4:53pm On Jul 27, 2014 |
ayoku777: A salute to you, God's general. Grace and truth be multiplied unto you. 2 Likes |
Re: Fatherhood Of Jesus ! by Nobody: 6:00pm On Jul 27, 2014 |
Goshen360: Hmm, thats strange. The bible says that for all have sinned and come short of the glory of God, no ? 1. This is getting even more confusing, you guys have to take one stance on this matter. You trace Jesus's lineage through his Mother which means the seed of David was in his mother , however you also say that God planted seed into Mary and I ask you in what form was this seed. 2. It also means that Jesus cannot trace his ancestry back to David since he bore neither the seed of his mother Mary or Step Father Joseph. He bore Gods seed and hence is not a direct descendant of David , no ? Or since when did a MAN have 2 seeds ? A Person can only come from one seed , not two seeds. 3. But even at that, the bible says ALL are born in sin without distinction and hence Mary was a sinner. If you argue that Jesus came from the seed of Mary it means he also had the corruption of sin but if you say he had the seed of God to avoid this corruption then he was not a descendant of David through Mary. You cannot have it both ways. 1 Like |
Re: Fatherhood Of Jesus ! by Nobody: 6:03pm On Jul 27, 2014 |
Goshen360: Stop playing gymnastics with me Bro , you are not dealing with a Novice here, its dangerous to start lying when God has not asked you to. The bible is very clear on what Father means in this context. |
Re: Fatherhood Of Jesus ! by Nobody: 6:08pm On Jul 27, 2014 |
Guys consider this : 2 Samuel 7:12-16New International Version (NIV) 12 When your days are over and you rest with your ancestors, I will raise up your offspring to succeed you, your own flesh and blood, and I will establish his kingdom. 13 He is the one who will build a house for my Name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever. 14 I will be his father, and he will be my son. When he does wrong, I will punish him with a rod wielded by men, with floggings inflicted by human hands. 15 But my love will never be taken away from him, as I took it away from Saul, whom I removed from before you. 16 Your house and your kingdom will endure forever before me[a]; your throne will be established forever.’” 1 Like |
Re: Fatherhood Of Jesus ! by Goshen360(m): 6:13pm On Jul 27, 2014 |
frosbel: Get a concordance, pick two or three verses stating father or Father and follow the different meanings. See if your interpretation will not change. Okay, let's do one exercise here: Abraham is the father of them or us who are of faith. Question: what does father mean here? That Abraham gave birth to YOUR faith or to YOU as a person? |
Re: Fatherhood Of Jesus ! by Goshen360(m): 6:15pm On Jul 27, 2014 |
frosbel: I can help you get better picture and or understanding your quest or help you get confused the more or make it really complex.....depending on your motives for starting the thread in the first place. 1 Like |
Re: Fatherhood Of Jesus ! by Nobody: 6:18pm On Jul 27, 2014 |
^^ You cannot confuse me Pal, trust me. Now answer the question. Thanks. |
Re: Fatherhood Of Jesus ! by truthislight: 6:23pm On Jul 27, 2014 |
Goshen360: Good! The bible says only the truth can set one free. |
Re: Fatherhood Of Jesus ! by truthislight: 6:41pm On Jul 27, 2014 |
frosbel: Guys consider this : That ^ was refering to solomon. However, Jesus is the greater solomon. Dont direct that to Jesus, i dont exactly know what you have in mind by posting that . 1 Like |
Re: Fatherhood Of Jesus ! by truthislight: 6:44pm On Jul 27, 2014 |
Hear what Jesus himself had to say concerning David: "And Jesus answered and said, while he taught in the temple: How say the scribes that Christ is the Son of David ? "For David himself said by the Holy Ghost, The Lord said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool for your feet". David therefore himself calleth him(Jesus) Lord; how then is he then his son? And the common people heard him gladly." (Mark 12:35-37). 1 Like |
Re: Fatherhood Of Jesus ! by Nobody: 6:47pm On Jul 27, 2014 |
truthislight: Yes I agree but some Scholars think this also refers to Jesus through the strange concept of dual prophecy ! http://www.bible.ca/ef/expository-2-samuel-7-12-16.htm Besides you are yet to answer my 3 questions. |
Re: Fatherhood Of Jesus ! by truthislight: 7:00pm On Jul 27, 2014 |
Jesus had a different Idea about being called the son of David. It is only a thing of the Messaiah coming through the line of David, and not Necessarily being the 'son' of David. So i see it. He is of the opinion that he is greater than David. truthislight: Hear what Jesus himself had to say concerning David: |
Re: Fatherhood Of Jesus ! by truthislight: 7:05pm On Jul 27, 2014 |
frosbel: Can you repost it ? |
Re: Fatherhood Of Jesus ! by Nobody: 7:10pm On Jul 27, 2014 |
The bible says that for all have sinned and come short of the glory of God, no ? |
Re: Fatherhood Of Jesus ! by truthislight: 7:19pm On Jul 27, 2014 |
Your nos 3 question, about the apostles not talking about it ? I did addressed it in my reply to your OP. The apostles talked about it, but it may not have been an issue in contention. Again, they had a greater commission about his death and resurrection. About Two apostle talked and wrote on it. Even Paul acknowledge that he was from a woman and not a man thing as someone on this thread earlier posted. See what paul said: "But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law," (Galatians 4:4). ..................................... I dont think all the apostles must speak on a topic befor it should be accepted as truth though. |
Re: Fatherhood Of Jesus ! by Nobody: 7:32pm On Jul 27, 2014 |
^^^ First of all truthislight , I am grateful that you took the time to help with these questions. Before I continue, it is important that I establish that my faith is Jesus Christ is unshakeable and even stronger than ever, however it is equally important that we remove myth from fact and fable from reality. Can I kindly suggest that you answer the other 2 questions when you have some time. In response to your answer to my question 3, here are a few problems with your explanation : 1. If he was from a WOMAN, where did the seed come from ? 2. If the seed was direct from God then how could he have been a direct descendant according to flesh and blood. 3. How could he have avoided the sin nature since his mother was also a sinner. ( I believe Jesus was sinless because he chose not to sin not because he was born sinless ). Thank you again. 1 Like |
Re: Fatherhood Of Jesus ! by ayoku777(m): 8:52pm On Jul 27, 2014 |
frosbel: ^^^ The question is intelligent, and I will answer by simply letting the bible say what it said and not project personal sentiments to it. If God calls the Messiah "the seed of the woman", then that means his flesh and blood was from the woman. But I also believe Jesus, the word of God is a SPIRIT, like the Father. Just like everyone one of us have our human spirits from God; and our flesh and blood from our parents. And about Jesus having a body that could sin coz of getting His flesh and blood from the woman, I partly agree, and this scripture readily comes to mind: Romans 8v3 -For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh; God sending HIS OWN SON IN THE LIKENESS OF SINFUL FLESH, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh. Personally, I don't think someone that CANNOT SIN can go through temptation -and Jesus was tempted. I believe Jesus DID NOT SIN not COULD NOT SIN That's why when you asked why Jesus had to come through a virgin birth, I didn't say so that He would not have a sinful flesh; because that reason is speculative and subjective in the light of the above scripture. I simply said its because that's how God, in the first messianic prophecy of the bible, said He would come. The WHY is inconclusive to the best of my knowledge; and I don't like to go beyond what is written. God bless. 3 Likes |
Re: Fatherhood Of Jesus ! by Nobody: 9:24pm On Jul 27, 2014 |
^^^^ I liked your post purely because of your honesty and I wish ALL of us will emulate this , instead of insults and name calling. However, the main reason why Christians in general say that Jesus had to be born without a human father is precisely for the reason of not inheriting the adamic nature which is not consistent with the fact that Mary also had this adamic nature. Now if this is the case then the foundation of this concept almost totally falls apart. Back to the issue of seed, a human or plant can only be produced through one seed. For example if I plant two bean seeds they will produce two bean plants not one bean plant and the same is true of mankind. This poses a problem because Jesus was supposed to descend from David through this seed, but if this seed was not the seed that was planted, then that connection is broken. The simple truth of the matter is that a lot of text in some of the gospels are ambiguous , in some cases by error and in many cases through intentional tampering. The Catholic church is behind the myth of the virgin birth, perpetual virginity of Mary, ascension of Mary and many such Myths and Fables which Paul warned us against. You also mentioned one KEY fact which many have missed. Jesus could have sinned but he chose not to and this is why God elevated him to the highest place of glory , this is why he has been given the everlasting throne to rule over all nations in the eternal kingdom of God which will shortly manifest itself. Thank You. 2 Likes |
Re: Fatherhood Of Jesus ! by ayoku777(m): 9:41pm On Jul 27, 2014 |
frosbel: ^^^^ Thanks, I appreciate. Honesty pays, it gives peace of mind. Its so hard trying to defend error out of ego. frosbel: I don't understand this paragraph, the explanation is a bit confusing. |
Re: Fatherhood Of Jesus ! by JesusisLord85: 9:56pm On Jul 27, 2014 |
frosbel: It has often been said that Mary conceived without a Man and gave birth to Jesus, but I am beginning to doubt certain parts of this story for the following reasons : It is true. He is the seed of Joseph, from the line of Judah. Not even sure why there is such emphasis on this. Assuming it were immaculate conception, which it was not, he raised people from the dead. Is that not a greater miracle. You christians crack me up. My brothers, recognise we are the descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, study the law and the prophets, and believe God came in the flesh to save Israel from their sins, and bring us back into covenant with him. Shalom |
Re: Fatherhood Of Jesus ! by Nobody: 9:57pm On Jul 27, 2014 |
ayoku777: "of his Son (who was born unto him of the seed of David according to the flesh" - Romans 1:3 "The LORD your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your countrymen, you shall listen to him." - Deuteronomy 18:15 Reading the scripture above makes it clear that Jesus was to be a direct descendant of David and from the nation of Israel. He was the seed of David. Now if we say that it was the Holy Spirit that planted this seed in Mary, then we have this connection broken and hence Jesus is not descended from David. But if we say that this seed was from Mary then we have 2 seeds which we know is not possible. In fact , the bible calls anti-Christ ( and this is not having a go at anyone ) those who do not believe that Jesus was a 100% human being. Jesus always said that Father was greater than him, he asked us to pray to God and not him, in the garden of Gethesame he prayed for deliverance to the father and because he feared he was delivered. He was like us , he overcame because he revered God and trusted him. "During the days of Jesus' life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with fervent cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission." - Hebrews 5:7 Also read Hebrews 12. Jesus is the perfect example of a MAN ( 100% not 50% ) who loved God with all his heart and his neighbour as himself, we are to do likewise and not use the excuse that he was God to keep sinning. The usual argument for those who keep deliberately sinning is that Jesus overcame sin because he is GOD but we cant because we are only human. This is false theology. Indeed we will make mistakes or even sin but the idea is to emulate Jesus and love God utterly and our neighbour as ourself. Of course if we sin, we have an advocate with the Father who pleads on our behalf. Hope this helps. 1 Like |
Re: Fatherhood Of Jesus ! by nep2ra(m): 10:43pm On Jul 27, 2014 |
frosbel: ^^^^ This is a very 'dangerous' line of reasoning. It goes against what Christians hold dear. Are you ready to become a martyr for something that challenges the very foundation of Christian doctrine? Sofri, sofri ooo! 1 Like |
Re: Fatherhood Of Jesus ! by truthislight: 11:32pm On Jul 27, 2014 |
frosbel: ^^^ I dont know what you are talking about. When you start attacking the bible with your own formulated concept, I am afraid, l cant do anything about that. Check the red above and educate me the scripture you got that from. Hence, if you wish to ask me a question, post the passage you are referencing. Peace. |
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