frosbel: ^^^^

Okay , let me ask you a simpler question :

Why did Jesus have to come from a virgin birth ?

frosbel: ^^^^

Okay , let me ask you a simpler question :

Why did Jesus have to come from a virgin birth ?

frosbel: ^^^^

Okay , let me ask you a simpler question :

Why did Jesus have to come from a virgin birth ?

Goshen360:

Because the seed of man, first Adam is corrupted. If Joseph has contributed, human race is still in a mess just like first Adam. Christ was called 2nd Adam, not because he was produced by first Adam or carry the corruptible nature but because he came to UNDO what was done by the first Adam.

Goshen360: See as 3 of us answered frosbel same thing. I see frosbel getting in trouble with this thread. ....

truthislight:

Frosbel will not get into trouble if he respects the bible.

truthislight:

Frosbel will not get into trouble if he respects the bible.

Goshen360:

Plus, recently, I also began to slow down and RE STUDY the bible, checking everything i was ever taught as a young christian and checking word meanings in context. Also, since the new testament fulfilled the old, i use the new to interpret d old, giving the old proper light and understanding. This is what I expect or believe Christians should be doing, rightly dividing the word, not just mixture and mixed bags teachings that's not supposed to be in the church today.

ayoku777:

So true.

I'm doing that presently. And mehn, never knew I heard so much tares in my wheat doctrine-wise. Now I have some fresh perspective about some previously held opinions and deeper insight into others.

Knowledge is progressive, to be dogmatic about doctrine is a great disservice to one's spiritual progress. But change is scary to religious people.

Goshen360:

Because the seed of man, first Adam is corrupted. If Joseph has contributed, human race is still in a mess just like first Adam. Christ was called 2nd Adam, not because he was produced by first Adam or carry the corruptible nature but because he came to UNDO what was done by the first Adam.

Goshen360:

I have stated that father ( with lower case f) has many uses within context. Also, Father (upper case F) has many uses within context and usually refer to Godhead.

Follow contextual uses and word meaning from concordance or lexicon. I thought you started using these two materials before. Go back and look carefully again putting everything in proper perspectives. You will get it.

frosbel:

Stop playing gymnastics with me Bro , you are not dealing with a Novice here, its dangerous to start lying when God has not asked you to.

The bible is very clear on what Father means in this context.

frosbel:

Hmm, thats strange.

The bible says that for all have sinned and come short of the glory of God, no ?

1. This is getting even more confusing, you guys have to take one stance on this matter. You trace Jesus's lineage through his Mother which means the seed of David was in his mother , however you also say that God planted seed into Mary and I ask you in what form was this seed.

2. It also means that Jesus cannot trace his ancestry back to David since he bore neither the seed of his mother Mary or Step Father Joseph. He bore Gods seed and hence is not a direct descendant of David , no ? Or since when did a MAN have 2 seeds ? A Person can only come from one seed , not two seeds.

3. But even at that, the bible says ALL are born in sin without distinction and hence Mary was a sinner. If you argue that Jesus came from the seed of Mary it means he also had the corruption of sin but if you say he had the seed of God to avoid this corruption then he was not a descendant of David through Mary. You cannot have it both ways.

Goshen360:

Plus, recently, I also began to slow down and RE STUDY the bible, checking everything i was ever taught as a young christian and checking word meanings in context. Also, since the new testament fulfilled the old, i use the new to interpret d old, giving the old proper light and understanding. This is what I expect or believe Christians should be doing, rightly dividing the word, not just mixture and mixed bags teachings that's not supposed to be in the church today.

frosbel: Guys consider this :

2 Samuel 7:12-16New International Version (NIV)

12 When your days are over and you rest with your ancestors, I will raise up your offspring to succeed you, your own flesh and blood, and I will establish his kingdom. 13 He is the one who will build a house for my Name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever. 14 I will be his father, and he will be my son. When he does wrong, I will punish him with a rod wielded by men, with floggings inflicted by human hands. 15 But my love will never be taken away from him, as I took it away from Saul, whom I removed from before you. 16 Your house and your kingdom will endure forever before me[a]; your throne will be established forever.’”

truthislight:

That ^ was refering to solomon.

However, Jesus is the greater solomon.

Dont direct that to Jesus, i dont exactly know what you have in mind by posting that .

truthislight: Hear what Jesus himself had to say concerning David:


"And Jesus answered and said, while he taught in the temple:
How say the scribes that Christ is the Son of David ?
"For David himself said by the Holy Ghost, The Lord said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool for your feet".
David therefore himself calleth him Lord(Jesus); how then is he then his son?
And the common people heard him gladly." (Mark 12:35-37).

frosbel:

Yes I agree but some Scholars think this also refers to Jesus through the strange concept of dual prophecy !

http://www.bible.ca/ef/expository-2-samuel-7-12-16.htm

Besides you are yet to answer my 3 questions.

The bible says that for all have sinned and come short of the glory of God, no ?

1. This is getting even more confusing, you guys have to take one stance on this matter. You trace Jesus's lineage through his Mother which means the seed of David was in his mother , however you also say that God planted seed into Mary and I ask you in what form was this seed.

2. It also means that Jesus cannot trace his ancestry back to David since he bore neither the seed of his mother Mary or Step Father Joseph. He bore Gods seed and hence is not a direct descendant of David , no ? Or since when did a MAN have 2 seeds ? A Person can only come from one seed , not two seeds.

3. But even at that, the bible says ALL are born in sin without distinction and hence Mary was a sinner. If you argue that Jesus came from the seed of Mary it means he also had the corruption of sin but if you say he had the seed of God to avoid this corruption then he was not a descendant of David through Mary. You cannot have it both ways.

frosbel: ^^^


1. If he was from a WOMAN, where did the seed come from ?
2. If the seed was direct from God then how could he have been a direct descendant according to flesh and blood.
3. How could he have avoided the sin nature since his mother was also a sinner. ( I believe Jesus was sinless because he chose not to sin not because he was born sinless ).

Thank you again.

frosbel: ^^^^

I liked your post purely because of your honesty and I wish ALL of us will emulate this , instead of insults and name calling.

However, the main reason why Christians in general say that Jesus had to be born without a human father is precisely for the reason of not inheriting the adamic nature which is not consistent with the fact that Mary also had this adamic nature. Now if this is the case then the foundation of this concept almost totally falls apart.

frosbel:

Back to the issue of seed, a human or plant can only be produced through one seed. For example if I plant two bean seeds they will produce two bean plants not one bean plant and the same is true of mankind. This poses a problem because Jesus was supposed to descend from David through this seed, but if this seed was not the seed that was planted, then that connection is broken.

frosbel: It has often been said that Mary conceived without a Man and gave birth to Jesus, but I am beginning to doubt certain parts of this story for the following reasons :

1. Jesus was to come from the seed of David which means from the lineage of his fleshly descendants , if God was his father, how could this have been fulfilled.

2. Paul makes not one mention of this supposed miraculous and major event even though it has been established that many of his letters precede most of the gospels, why ?

3. None of the apostles mentioned this in their letters or sermons , why ?

4. The books of Luke and Matthew contain conflicting accounts of this event, why ?

5. Is it not an abomination to suggest that God made Mary pregnant ? I am really beginning to have a problem with this.

6. I have read a lot of articles from Jewish sites and they see this as an abomination and almost laughable, should they not be the ones to know more about this ?

7. No other gospel mentions this story even Mark which is the oldest gospel, why ?


Help me please people !


Thanks and please let us keep this civil.

ayoku777:
I don't understand this paragraph, the explanation is a bit confusing.

Back to the issue of seed, a human or plant can only be produced through one seed. For example if I plant two bean seeds they will produce two bean plants not one bean plant and the same is true of mankind. This poses a problem because Jesus was supposed to descend from David through this seed, but if this seed was not the seed that was planted, then that connection is broken.

frosbel: ^^^^

I liked your post purely because of your honesty and I wish ALL of us will emulate this , instead of insults and name calling.

However, the main reason why Christians in general say that Jesus had to be born without a human father is precisely for the reason of not inheriting the adamic nature which is not consistent with the fact that Mary also had this adamic nature. Now if this is the case then the foundation of this concept almost totally falls apart.

Back to the issue of seed, a human or plant can only be produced through one seed. For example if I plant two bean seeds they will produce two bean plants not one bean plant and the same is true of mankind. This poses a problem because Jesus was supposed to descend from David through this seed, but if this seed was not the seed that was planted, then that connection is broken.

The simple truth of the matter is that a lot of text in some of the gospels are ambiguous , in some cases by error and in many cases through intentional tampering. The Catholic church is behind the myth of the virgin birth, perpetual virginity of Mary, ascension of Mary and many such Myths and Fables which Paul warned us against.

You also mentioned one KEY fact which many have missed. Jesus could have sinned but he chose not to and this is why God elevated him to the highest place of glory , this is why he has been given the everlasting throne to rule over all nations in the eternal kingdom of God which will shortly manifest itself.

Thank You.

frosbel: ^^^

First of all truthislight , I am grateful that you took the time to help with these questions.

Before I continue, it is important that I establish that my faith is Jesus Christ is unshakeable and even stronger than ever, however it is equally important that we remove myth from fact and fable from reality.

Can I kindly suggest that you answer the other 2 questions when you have some time.

In response to your answer to my question 3, here are a few problems with your explanation :

1. If he was from a WOMAN, where did the seed come from ?
2. If the seed was direct from God then how could he have been a direct descendant according to flesh and blood.
3. How could he have avoided the sin nature since his mother was also a sinner. ( I believe Jesus was sinless because he chose not to sin not because he was born sinless ).

Thank you again.