trustman:
Mbaemeka you trying to shift the focus from my position with you. That is deceitful to say the least. DO NOT place on me things I have not said. Ok? 
If need be paste my quote to be sure it's from me. Ok?
You are answering a number of people at the same time and maybe you're getting confused as to who said what. 
My position is clear:
You said Jesus had SINFUL FLESH but I've used scripture to show that that is impossible. He had flesh, yes but a sinful one, NO. He had no flesh of sin. Unlike our body (every other single human being) Adam's sin was not imputed to him. Therefore he was free of sin spirit, soul and body. 
Let me restate it again Jesus' body (I.e. His FLESH) was not a sinful flesh like you claim. He had no sin nature derived from Adam that would have tainted his flesh. 
I also stated that by the time he started his ministry Jesus was fully prepared for it. In other words he was SPIRITUALLY MATURED. The implications of this should be clear to anyone. 
DO NOT try to redefine the word SINFUL. Sinful is sinful. Sinful means has sin in one form or the other. Trying to say sinful means "susceptible to sin" is an attempt to TWIST the meaning of the word to conform to your changed position perhaps. 
When I mentioned integrity and you deridedly  labeled me Mr. Integrity it again showed you for who you are. Instead of owning up to your wrong you are attempting to change the meaning of words. That is lack of integrity. That is deceit. That is falsehood. 
I am not saying Jesus didn't have flesh. He did. BUT I'm saying that unlike your position it was not a SINFUL FLESH. If it were it would not be an offering acceptable to God because it was God (not the devil as some WoF preachers claim) who required to be propitiated. And God required a PERFECT sacrifice which in the case of man's sin-bearer had to be sin-free. The major issue with man was SIN. If it is to be resolved why would anything with sin be the thing to resolve sin? Simple reasoning isn't it?
Your trying to overemphasize blood over other parts of the body was again why I showed you from scripture that the flesh was equally stressed in scripture as part of the salvation work to the extent that the HOlY COMMUNION (The Lord's Supper, Eucharist, etc) the highest extant ritual(observance) in Christendom refers to the BODY of Jesus Christ. So to belittle the body is not a small matter before God. 

BabaGnoni:


GBAM, SMH

shdemidemi:

What an incorrigible student of the bible you are!

How do you even compare the literal scar on the body of Jesus to the figurative blemish on the lamb?

lamb was used as a shadow of Jesus that is to come.

A lamb without blemish as used in the old testament represented Jesus without sin and not Jesus without bruise or scar.



My brother, go and read your Heb 2:18 and Heb 4:15 properly. The context at which Jesus was tempted was the cause of suffering to Him and not a drawing away to sin.

Peter to his fellow countrymen said this- Acts 15:10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?- Does this statement stop God from being who He is?

Israel constantly tempted and tried God with evil.

I Corinthians 10:9

"Neither let us tempt (test) Christ, as some of them also tempted, (tested) and were destroyed of serpents."

I hope you get to understand Jesus being tested does not make Him less of a divine being. The case of temptation of Christ or God came from without and never within due to uncontrolled appetite or evil passions as a result of the sinful nature.

Digest carefully.

Jesus had earlier said only God is good, He applied this word when he said

Matthew 20
15 Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own? Is thine eye evil, because I am good?



God does not expect us to be as good as Jesus by any strength we have in our flesh. We don't have the ability within our flesh to live a life close to the standard God expect or to the standard Jesus lived. Only Jesus could do this and that is why we are covered on the back of the righteousness of Christ.
phil 3:3
3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.

A sinful flesh can never be perfect, but Jesus was perfect on all sides. God expects us to keep renovating/renewing our mind by the bread/His flesh/communion/His word to tame that sinful desires within us.

Romans 12 King James Version (KJV)

12 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God

JESUS NEVER NEEDED SUCH RENEWING OF MIND AT ANY STAGE BECAUSE HE IS PERFECT.

shdemidemi: confused.com^

mbaemeka:
Jesus was not perfect. The bible said he BECAME perfect. That's why I told you the test that made him perfect was that he didn't sin and not that he was born with another flesh.

mbaemeka:
Another thing that you said that is patently wrong is about God being "tempted"

mbaemeka:

My "trying to overemphasize the blood over other parts of his body"? This is me defending healing as part of Jesus' salvation for mankind. Hahahahaha.

I am changing position? Can you pick one point that I have made all through that has changed?

Can you show us how you came about your own definition of sinful flesh as used by Paul in Romans 8:3? Because I have shown you other translations to buttress my points and you have shown me none except to repeat the consensus that Jesus presented his flesh unblemished even though our definitions of the word unblemished as used in the bible is different. I have maintained that Jesus' unblemished body meant that he did not sin even though he had the same flesh that other men had that caused them to sin but you have claimed that he had another flesh. Please prove it from scripture. That's all I have asked.

As per Jesus being fully mature or what not I don't know what that has to do with him exercising his faith for greater miracles that he said the Holy Spirit will show him or how that shows that men who have the Holy Spirit cannot do same. If you have relevant scriptures to that effect please show me for I have studied the life of Jesus from the bible and I have seen no such thing.

shdemidemi: @mbaemeka

I will show you a foreview and a pointer to the death of Jesus/God in the old testament.

In ancient times, COVENANTS were taken so seriously that you could not just cut a covenant with anyone because they carried penalties if broken by any of the parties involved. The principle of covenants was strictly understood by all in those days, because if either party did not fulfil their part of the covenant, something tragic would happen to the offending party.

The general idea about the animals that were cut into two parts by Abraham was that a requirement between the two parties involved in covenant would be to walk between the divided animals so as to signify that “may this be done to me if I break this covenant; may I be torn apart, may I be cut in half like these animals if I fail to carry out my part of the covenant”.

God instructs Abraham to get some animals: a heifer, goat and ram, each to be three years old. He also told him to bring a dove and young pigeon. He got the animals and God told him to divide the heifer, goat and ram into two parts and arrange them adjacent to each other, but the birds were not to be divided into two parts. God was about to cut a covenant with Abraham/man.

Abraham prepares the animals, but God is not man; so they won’t both walk between the divided animals. Abraham falls asleep and a horror of darkness enveloped him. A smoking furnace and a burning lamp (signifying the presence of God) went between the animals. ‘Wow!, That was God’, he would have reassured himself when he woke up from his dream. God made that covenant with Abraham. Abraham was not allowed to participate as the second party in the covenant; God was on both sides. In other words, God assured Abraham that He (God) should be torn apart like the animals if eventually He failed to keep His part of the covenant. God took full responsibility for the fulfilment of the covenant if eventually Abraham/man fails, although God was the first and the second party in the agreement.

At Golgotha, there was darkness from the sixth hour to the ninth hour and eventually because of the failure of mankind, and He died. God died.

His immortality eventually became mortality; his immutability did suffer mutation; the impossible became possible; the infallibility became fallible. God was cut off and trampled in the dust.

Jesus is God..

shdemidemi:

Jesus had earlier said only God is good, He applied this word when he said

Matthew 20
15 Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own? Is thine eye evil, because I am good?


At what point exactly was Jesus imperfect?

Heb 5:9 (hint)



I Corinthians 10:9

"Neither let us tempt (test) Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents."

Do you remember the setting Paul is talking about? As a result of Israel's sin, God sent poison serpents out amongst the camp, and the little rascals would bite the Israelites, and it would kill those who were bitten. They had to run to Moses and say, "Do something about this." Then Moses has to go to God for instruction. And what does God say? You put up a brazen serpent up on a pole, and tell the children of Israel when they get bitten by one of these snakes they can look at the brazen serpent and be healed.

And remember brass always speaks of judgment in The Bible. That was another foreview of the work of Christ, when He took our sins on whom God's judgment fell then of course we are healed of our sin problem in what we call forgiveness, and Salvation, and justification, and all the rest.

God was actually tempted and this does not contradict what James said- Do you understand it now?

mbaemeka: Hebrews 2:9, 14, 16-18 AMP

But we are able to see Jesus, Who was ranked lower than the angels for a little while, crowned with glory and honor because of His having suffered death, in order that by the grace (unmerited favor) of God [to us sinners] He might experience death for every individual person.

Since, therefore, [these His] children share in flesh and blood [in the physical nature of human beings], He [Himself] in a similar manner partook of the same [nature] that by [going through] death He might bring to nought and make of no effect him who had the power of death–that is, the devil–

For, as we all know, He [Christ] did not take hold of angels [the fallen angels, to give them a helping and delivering hand], but He did take hold of [the fallen] descendants of Abraham [to reach out to them a helping and delivering hand]. [Isa. 41:8, 9.]

So it is evident that it was essential that He be made like His brethren in every respect, in order that He might become a merciful (sympathetic) and faithful High Priest in the things related to God, to make atonement and propitiation for the people's sins. For because He Himself [in His humanity] has suffered in being tempted (tested and tried), He is able [immediately] to run to the cry of (assist, relieve) those who are being tempted and tested and tried [and who therefore are being exposed to suffering].

mbaemeka:

Someone please explain this to me because I cannot recall saying Jesus is not God.

mbaemeka:

Somebody please explain this temptation in relation to how men are tempted to sin because that is what the whole bible maintained throughout: THAT GOD CANNOT BE TEMPTED BY THE DEVIL TO SIN.

mbaemeka:
As per When Jesus became perfect here is the scriptural reference. Hebrews 2:10 and Hebrews 5:7-9 and both clearly state that he was made or that he became perfect through all the things that he suffered- including his obedience to dying on the cross which consummated it (Philippians 2). As a result of this God then highly exalted the man Jesus to the status of Almighty God and made him the author of eternal salvation.

Meaning Jesus wasn't yet perfect until he went through everything that he went through.

Are we on the same page so far?

shdemidemi: @mbaemeka

I will show you a foreview and a pointer to the death of Jesus/God in the old testament.

In ancient times, COVENANTS were taken so seriously that you could not just cut a covenant with anyone because they carried penalties if broken by any of the parties involved. The principle of covenants was strictly understood by all in those days, because if either party did not fulfil their part of the covenant, something tragic would happen to the offending party.

The general idea about the animals that were cut into two parts by Abraham was that a requirement between the two parties involved in covenant would be to walk between the divided animals so as to signify that “may this be done to me if I break this covenant; may I be torn apart, may I be cut in half like these animals if I fail to carry out my part of the covenant”.

God instructs Abraham to get some animals: a heifer, goat and ram, each to be three years old. He also told him to bring a dove and young pigeon. He got the animals and God told him to divide the heifer, goat and ram into two parts and arrange them adjacent to each other, but the birds were not to be divided into two parts. God was about to cut a covenant with Abraham/man.

Abraham prepares the animals, but God is not man; so they won’t both walk between the divided animals. Abraham falls asleep and a horror of darkness enveloped him. A smoking furnace and a burning lamp (signifying the presence of God) went between the animals. ‘Wow!, That was God’, he would have reassured himself when he woke up from his dream. God made that covenant with Abraham. Abraham was not allowed to participate as the second party in the covenant; God was on both sides. In other words, God assured Abraham that He (God) should be torn apart like the animals if eventually He failed to keep His part of the covenant. God took full responsibility for the fulfilment of the covenant if eventually Abraham/man fails, although God was the first and the second party in the agreement.

At Golgotha, there was darkness from the sixth hour to the ninth hour and eventually because of the failure of mankind, and He died. God died.

His immortality eventually became mortality; his immutability did suffer mutation; the impossible became possible; the infallibility became fallible. God was cut off and trampled in the dust.

Jesus is God..

mbaemeka: Trustman,

I didn't bother reading the post well as I saw you started with the same nonsense you have been saying since. I gave you my own definition of the SINFUL FLESH I said he had that is- the same flesh with the people he came to represent only difference being that HE NEVER SINNED while in it. I gave you different Aliases of that flesh as used in the bible and I gave you more than 10 scripture references to that effect.

Can you please just do same?

Bidam: The Man Jesus died not God died except you can provide a scripture for this, you are teaching heresy here.

Bidam:
And concerning the covenant i thought your position on this forum is that only the new covenant is binding on christians not the Abrahamic covenant?

Bidam:
Yet you left key issues of the covenant.

1. The covenant is directed through specific offspring of Abraham, leading ultimately to Christ.

Bidam:
3.The covenant is everlasting with Abraham and his decendants.

Bidam:
4. Circumcision is a sign to seal the covenant.(Gen 17:11).

So can you tell us why Jesus(God) had to be circumcised since the Abrahamic covenant is a unilateral one-hinging only upon one party:God?

shdemidemi:
You keep running from pillar to post my friend.. were you not the same person that claimed to know about theophany and not christophany? 7n an attempt to separate the two. You swerve from your position every time you are cornered.
If Jesus is God, how can he then house himself in a sinful flesh that was a result from the fall of man from God's glory?
If there is a part of scripture you are confused about, why don't you ask instead of writing too many things without substance.
..

shdemidemi:

What bible told you God cannot be tempted by the 'devil'?



Mba ...


Perfect(teleioo in greek) as used here does not mean he was imperfect at anytime, no wonder you could not give a straight answer on when he was not perfect.

Perfection here speaks of the completeness of christ's earthly course.

check and come back.

mbaemeka:

The problem with all your heresies is that I don't know which to Isolate and explain to you. So maybe you should explain yourself well so I can understand you.

1. God was tempted to sin by the devil? Wow. This is a first. Please show me the relevant scriptures.

2. The bible says Jesus BECAME perfect through his sufferings and as such was appointed the Author of eternal salvation amongst other things. How can God become perfect?

You see I didn't even try to go greek with you yet because you and Trustman aren't even saying the same things. Maybe if I have time I would show you how soooo far off the truth you are.

trustman:

If you did not bother to read the post why send me on a wild goose chase?

shdemidemi:

You must really be feeling smart with your forte at evading questions.

What bible told you God cannot be tempted by the 'devil'? Just give an humble answer and not a derogatory question.



Please check your greek translation... The definition of perfect as used in that verse is there. Thanks

James 1:13 KJV

Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

mbaemeka:

So what is the aim of Satan in tempting God to sin? If the question appears derogatory it is because it is illogical to even think let alone post it.

As per Jesus, let me pace myself a bit. Does God need to grow in wisdom?

mbaemeka:
Somebody please explain this temptation in relation to how men are tempted to sin because that is what the whole bible maintained throughout: THAT GOD CANNOT BE TEMPTED BY THE DEVIL TO SIN.

shdemidemi:
What bible told you God cannot be tempted by the 'devil'?.

mbaemeka: James 1:13 KJV

Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

mbaemeka:
Somebody please explain this temptation in relation to how men are tempted to sin because that is what the whole bible maintained throughout: THAT GOD CANNOT BE TEMPTED BY THE DEVIL TO SIN.

mbaemeka:

God didn't make Jesus. He was born by Mary. Adam was created and Jesus was born. I agree Jesus did not sin but he died. Why did he die? Did God create Adam to die?

Yours is interesting. You have introduced a third type of flesh now- inbetween Adam and the Heavenly. Without a single scripture to back such a claim.

The Prepared Body

"Wherefore when He cometh into the world, He saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me" (Hebrews 10:5)

The author of Hebrews had just pointed out that, despite all the animal sacrifices offered up by the people of Israel over the centuries, “it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins” (Hebrews 10:4). That would require the once-for-all offering of “the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world” (John 1:29).

But that perfect Lamb could be none other than God Himself, in the person of His Son, the Lord Jesus Christ. No ordinary man, however powerful or wise or morally upright he might be, could ever accomplish such a mighty task. Neither could an angel remove human sin from the world. Only God could do that, but He must also be a man in order to pay the death penalty for man’s sins, then also defeat death and live forever with those who would receive Him as Saviour. He must be both eternal God and perfect man.

For this mission, He must have a human body, but it must be a very special body, with no genetically inherited mutational blemishes and no inherited Adamic sin nature. Thus His great testimony: "A body hast thou prepared me."

The Greek word for "prepared" is a strong word, connoting something like "made perfect" in most of its occurrences. It is used only one other time in Hebrews, in the very next chapter. "Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God" (Hebrews 11:3). This correlation assures us that God "prepared" the human body of His Son, to be placed in Mary’s virgin womb with the same perfect wisdom and care with which He had "framed" the worlds. Both were made "very good," perfectly designed, created, and made to accomplish His great eternal plan. HMM

For more . . . .

mbaemeka:

So what is the aim of Satan in tempting God to sin? If the question appears derogatory it is because it is illogical to even think let alone post it.

As per Jesus, let me pace myself a bit. Does God need to grow in wisdom?

shdemidemi:

My friend, What I typed there was not for you atall. It is a theocentric way of studying scriptures. It sure sounds like heresy if one don't understand the angelic conflict that brought about the idea of God making man.

You got me wrong sir. Abrahamic covenant is very relevant to every christian. We(the present body of christ/ the church)are a product of that seed that was promised to Abraham.
yes agreed.. we are blessed on the back of that seed as contained in the promise.

Yes it is.. every covenant made by God is forever.

Christ had to fulfil all righteousness according to the law... circumcission of the flesh profits nothing but the circumcision of the heart was God's primary and exclusive mission.