MikeCZAR:
I'm talking about the mounted personnel. Those vehicles offer them less situitional awareness.

Yes, google researchers.

Hatches are available for mounted personnel.

Patchesagain:


Because the Jackal was developed specifically because the British found that recon soldiers inside of MRAP's lack situational awareness

Yet the British have also developed the Foxhound aka Ocelot for their commandos. Don't you find it ironic?

Henry120:


Hatches are available for mounted personnel.

How many people can poke out of those hatches?

How many men can fire their weapons in this vehicle?

Henry120:


Weight of the Plasan Sandcat is 8,800kg
Top speed : 120km/H
Can carry weight : 2,300KG
Engine generates : 325hp

It is also easily air transportable by a Ch-53, CH-47 or C-130

The vehicle also provides all round better protection for it's crew. It is also very affordable as $17 million can provide a SOF command with 27 vehicles, while same amount can only get 9 Supacat Jackals.

On situational awareness, the crew doesn't need to actually step out of their vehicle as on board systems provide all round 360 degrees view for Kilometers away.

These so called SPVs really do not provide any real advantage for the costs they offer. It is much much better to have my crew in a Plasan Sandcat or an Oshkosh M-ATV than a Panhard SPV or Jackal.

Marines Special forces agree with me. Their personnel drive in M-ATVs.

Situitional awareness of the men not machine.

SF operate in small numbers! Most of the time.

Can you fight in a Oshkosh M-ATV? If say you're raiding a rebel camp you'd rather have your men in a vehicle like the Jackal.

MikeCZAR:
How many people can poke out of those hatches?

How many men can fire their weapons in this vehicle?

The vehicles i prefer all have gun ports from which troops can fire from.

Those vehicles(SPVs) carry 3 guys operationally. Main gunner, secondary and driver.

MikeCZAR:
Situitional awareness of the men not machine.

SF operate in small numbers! Most of the time.

Can you fight in a Oshkosh M-ATV? If say you're raiding a rebel camp you'd rather have your men in a vehicle like the Jackal.

Situational awareness, the Vehicles provide situational awareness for both men and machine.

U.S marine Special Forces seem to be fighting and raiding camps well from their M-ATVs. I don't see them complaining, infact the poles have even ordered units for GROM.

Henry120:

The vehicles i prefer all have gun ports from which troops can fire from.

Those vehicles(SPVs) carry 3 guys operationally. Main gunner, secondary and driver.

That again reduces their situational awareness.

How many men can the Wasp carry?

Henry120:


Situational awareness, the Vehicles provide situational awareness for both men and machine.

U.S marine Special Forces seem to be fighting and raiding camps well from their M-ATVs. I don't see them complaining, infact the poles have even ordered units for GROM.

During a battle and in small numbers?

You wanna look at some screen? Instead of scanning, locating, deliver firepower and get out as soon as possible.



These vehicles aren't designed for "conventional warfare" usage, they're mostly used for hit and run raids, reccon and low intensity guerilla warfare.

LSV?

MikeCZAR:
That again reduces their situational awareness.

How many men can the Wasp carry?

No it does not reduce situational awareness, on the contrary, it greatly improves it.

What's a Wasp?

MikeCZAR:
During a battle and in small numbers?

You wanna look at some screen? Instead of scanning, locating, deliver firepower and get out as soon as possible.



These vehicles aren't designed for "conventional warfare" usage, they're mostly used for hit and run raids, reccon and low intensity guerilla warfare.

LSV?

With the systems on board the Vehicle, you see the enemy before he even knows you are there.

U.S marine Special forces, Grom and all the other special forces units who use the M-ATV aren't sup1d.

Henry120:


Weight of the Plasan Sandcat is 8,800kg
Top speed : 120km/H
Can carry weight : 2,300KG
Engine generates : 325hp

It is also easily air transportable by a Ch-53, CH-47 or C-130

The vehicle also provides all round better protection for it's crew. It is also very affordable as $17 million can provide a SOF command with 27 vehicles, while same amount can only get 9 Supacat Jackals.

On situational awareness, the crew doesn't need to actually step out of their vehicle as on board systems provide all round 360 degrees view for Kilometers away.

These so called SPVs really do not provide any real advantage for the costs they offer. It is much much better to have my crew in a Plasan Sandcat or an Oshkosh M-ATV than a Panhard SPV or Jackal.

Marines Special forces agree with me. Their personnel drive in M-ATVs.

This is getting infuriating, you are just repeating the same thing over and over again

Your whole argument revolves around "Cost, Protection and [i]They only use it to look coo[/i]l"

Cost: Cost is irrelevant, some platforms are cheaper than others, some more expensive. If you can afford it you can afford it, if you cant you buy something cheaper.

Protection: Portection difference between SandCat and Jackal is a whole 4kg of TNT... wow

"They only do it to look cool": Yeah, I dont think this requires a response.

Fact is, these vehicles are more mobile, have a lower signature, and better situational awareness.


So I shall leave you with this:

- Special forces around the world use vehicals such as the Jackal for a reason, the reason being that they are professionals and they know what they are doing. Indeed, special forces only exist BECAUSE of these vehicals.

If you wish to second guess them, then go ahead

Henry120:


Yet the British have also developed the Foxhound aka Ocelot for their commandos. Don't you find it ironic?

Nope

They developed the Foxhound as a general purpose "light" MRAP

Henry120:

The vehicles i prefer all have gun ports from which troops can fire from.

Those vehicles(SPVs) carry 3 guys operationally. Main gunner, secondary and driver.

This is beyond ludicrous

I think your problem is that you are not realizing:

Special Forces =/= Special Operations forces =/= Light Infantry =/= Motorized Infantry

The fact that Special Forces as we know it exist because some guys in WW2 decided to strap some .303 machineguns on their Jeeps and go raid some airfeilds kind of gives it away

Henry120:


Situational awareness, the Vehicles provide situational awareness for both men and machine.

U.S marine Special Forces seem to be fighting and raiding camps well from their M-ATVs. I don't see them complaining, infact the poles have even ordered units for GROM.

Problem is

MARSOC and their special snowflake unit Force Recon specially developed the M1161 Growler just for themselves

And they were using the IFAV before the M1161

PIc 1/2: M1161
Pic 3/4: IFAV

So yeah, even the unit you cited agrees with us

Henry120:


No it does not reduce situational awareness, on the contrary, it greatly improves it.

What's a Wasp?

It does because instead of the whole crew being able to see what is going on

Only the driver can see what is infront of him

And one guy can see what a screen shows him

Pic related is a Wasp, its what our special forces use (Note the MRLS)

Patchesagain:


This is getting infuriating, you are just repeating the same thing over and over again

Your whole argument revolves around "Cost, Protection and [i]They only use it to look coo[/i]l"

Cost: Cost is irrelevant, some platforms are cheaper than others, some more expensive. If you can afford it you can afford it, if you cant you buy something cheaper.

Protection: Portection difference between SandCat and Jackal is a whole 4kg of TNT... wow

"They only do it to look cool": Yeah, I dont think this requires a response.

Fact is, these vehicles are more mobile, have a lower signature, and better situational awareness.


So I shall leave you with this:

- Special forces around the world use vehicals such as the Jackal for a reason, the reason being that they are professionals and they know what they are doing. Indeed, special forces only exist BECAUSE of these vehicals.

If you wish to second guess them, then go ahead

Are you having another mental breakdown, because i can't seem to find where i made that part of your comment i highlighted in this thread?

Patchesagain:


This is getting infuriating, you are just repeating the same thing over and over again

Your whole argument revolves around "Cost, Protection and [i]They only use it to look coo[/i]l"

Cost: Cost is irrelevant, some platforms are cheaper than others, some more expensive. If you can afford it you can afford it, if you cant you buy something cheaper.

Protection: Portection difference between SandCat and Jackal is a whole 4kg of TNT... wow

"They only do it to look cool": Yeah, I dont think this requires a response.

Fact is, these vehicles are more mobile, have a lower signature, and better situational awareness.


So I shall leave you with this:

- Special forces around the world use vehicals such as the Jackal for a reason, the reason being that they are professionals and they know what they are doing. Indeed, special forces only exist BECAUSE of these vehicals.

If you wish to second guess them, then go ahead

So why are special forces around the world switching to M-ATVs?

The Supacat jackal in it's basic shape provides virtually no protection for it's crew, excerpt for IEDs.

What sort of protection does the Panhard SPV provide?

There is no evidence that the vehicles are more mobile or provide better situational awareness than the M-ATV or Sandcat.

So again I ask, why are Special forces now switching to vehicles like the M-ATV and Sandcat?

Henry120:


So why are special forces around the world switching to M-ATVs?

The Supacat jackal in it's basic shape provides virtually no protection for it's crew, excerpt for IEDs.

What sort of protection does the Panhard SPV provide?

There is no evidence that the vehicles are more mobile or provide better situational awareness than the M-ATV or Sandcat.

So again I ask, why are Special forces now switching to vehicles like the M-ATV and Sandcat?

They arent switching - not at all. Infact, Ze Germans have just adopted (last pic) for their paratroopers as a APC

Infact, as I have just shown, Force Recon has just adopted a specially designed light vehical... the M1161

Your obsession with protection is unwarranted - speed, maneuverability, a small signature and situational awareness are its armor

I have shown that the Jackal is more maneuverable, and logically, an open topped vehical provides better situational awareness than one that is closed.

Henry120:


No it does not reduce situational awareness, on the contrary, it greatly improves it.

What's a Wasp?

It reduces situational awareness.

Hornet.

Henry120:


With the systems on board the Vehicle, you see the enemy before he even knows you are there.

U.S marine Special forces, Grom and all the other special forces units who use the M-ATV aren't sup1d.

You realise they have fire their weapons right?

Patchesagain:


They arent switching - not at all. Infact, Ze Germans have just adopted (last pic) for their paratroopers as a APC

Infact, as I have just shown, Force Recon has just adopted a specially designed light vehical... the M1161

Your obsession with protection is unwarranted - speed, maneuverability, a small signature and situational awareness are its armor

I have shown that the Jackal is more maneuverable, and logically, an open topped vehical provides better situational awareness than one that is closed.

They are using more and more of vehicles like the M-ATV for their Special forces, and SOF units.

US marine special forces have not only adopted the M-ATV, the field them in their hundreds.

Your obsession with no protection makes no sense- Vehicles like the Plasan Sandcat and M-ATV provide SF troops with un-rivaled mobility, manuverbility, speed, battle-field and general situational awareness, Protection and AAT.

MikeCZAR:
You realise they have fire their weapons right?

They can fire their weapons properly.

Henry120:

They can fire their weapons properly.

How?

MikeCZAR:
How?

How is the gunner above in the M-ATV firing his weapon, how is the RWS also firing its weapon?

MikeCZAR:
It reduces situational awareness.

Hornet.

It does not reduce any situational awareness, as the crew can spot the enemy from kilometers away, day or night, in cloudy or clear conditions.

Henry120:


How is the gunner above in the M-ATV firing his weapon, how is the RWS also firing its weapon?

With other vehicles more than 4 men can fire their weapons while on the vehicle.

MikeCZAR:
With other vehicles more than 4 men can fire their weapons while on the vehicle.

Operatives are able to identify and eliminate their targets from kilometers away in any weather or climatic condition.

Henry120:


It does not reduce any situational awareness, as the crew can spot the enemy from kilometers away, day or night, in cloudy or clear conditions.

If they got into a fire fight they'd have less situational awareness compared to men sitting in sf vehicles.


Also remember sensors aren't magic things.

Henry120:


Operatives are able to identify and eliminate their targets from kilometers away in any weather or climatic condition.

Not really.

MikeCZAR:
Not really.

"What is not really?"!

MikeCZAR:
If they got into a fire fight they'd have less situational awareness compared to men sitting in sf vehicles.


Also remember sensors aren't magic things.

They are a recon or a kill/capture team, the chances of them entering into an un-predetermined fire fight are much much lower than regular infantry.

The systems on-board the vehicles provide the operatives un-matched situational awareness. This is a statistical fact!

Henry120:


They are a recon or a kill/capture team, the chances of them entering into an un-predetermined fire fight are much much lower than regular infantry.

The systems on-board the vehicles provide the operatives un-matched situational awareness. This is a statistical fact!

Henry

The "fact" is the complete opposite

Men sitting in an ENCLOSED space will have less situational awareness than men sitting in an OPEN space