SonOfEl:


spiritual illiterate.... you don't even understand scriptures about God's image relating to us. can you just humble yourself and learn...see...good riddance...suit yourself, may God help you.

Abeg keep quiet, u have nothing to teach. Spiritual literate ... Lol.

frank317:

Abeg keep quiet, u have nothing to teach. Spiritual literate ... Lol.

**ignores your hypocrisy and stupidity**

An2elect2:


Luke 10:21
In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I
thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and
earth, that thou hast hid these things from the
wise and prudent, and hast revealed them
unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed
good in thy sight.[/i]

Is it safe to infer from this passage that God never intended for man to be wise and prudent?

Is it not ironic that "If you need wisdom, ask our generous God, and he will give it to you. He will not rebuke you for asking."? [NLT] James 1:5.

.

zyzxx:
if you have a son and the son is a thief does that means u also you are a thief or the blood is flowing in y

---

ffou also?

First, the bible said God created us in his own image. There is no mixure of father and mother. He created us in his image. Not only that, the earth was without form and void and God made everything in it. Both good and bad came from him. Hr created us and programmed us to be the way we are. So how is it my fault I am lost and deluded without us tracing it back to him.

Second... Most time parents are to blam when their son becomes a thief. This personality could be inherited from the parents and as a result of bad training from the parents. Its just very very insignificant cases that you might excuse the parents. Now look at the world and its craziness... Does ur God look like a good parent?

SonOfEl:


**ignores your hypocrisy and stupidity**

My hypocrisy and stupidity like ur God who created me

In My Opinion:

I dont really know if there is a God or not, but there might be a single entity who is spiritual and holds knowledge

BUT I DONT SUBSCRIBE TO THE ABRAHAMIC VIEW OF CONSCIOUSNESS

I believe I am the commander of my own fate, and make my own decisions,

out of the night that covers me,
      Black as the pit from pole to pole,
I thank whatever gods may be
      For my unconquerable soul.
In the fell clutch of circumstance
      I have not winced nor cried aloud.
Under the bludgeonings of chance
      My head is bloody, but unbowed.
Beyond this place of wrath and tears
      Looms but the Horror of the shade,
And yet the menace of the years
      Finds and shall find me unafraid.
It matters not how strait the gate,
      How charged with punishments the scroll,
I am the master of my fate,
      I am the captain of my soul.

William Ernest Henley

frank317:


What truth have u presented? You just type and praise yourself and feel good about it, that means you have presented the truth? What do u call truth? So words written by ancient cattle rearers? If its the truth should u be the one saying it or should the creator be here clearing our doubts.
Don't hype urself... So many people see u as ignorant. Prove u are not ignorant rather than thinking u are not.

Lol...Are You Minding Him? Kingebukablog Is Far Smarter Than The Dude, And Am Very Sure Kingebukablog And Other Well Thinking Christians Would Be Very Dissapointed With Him.

SonOfEl:


ancient cattle rearers? hahaha....listen kid, wisdom is not intelligence. wisdom can never be obsolete. time even makes wisdom a lot more valuable and priceless.

many people see me as ignorant? I think I should be the one telling you that. you atheists and skeptics are the noisemaking few, while the religious and also the spiritual, are the many, so take a look at the mirror.

Wisdom Can Never Be Obsolete, And Time Makes It More Valuable And Priceless, Right? ...Good... Would You Call King Solomon In The Bible The Wisest Man That Ever Lived Just Because Of A Simple-Divide-The-Child-Judgement? Does It Rank Among The First 1000 Wisest Judgement Today? Is It Wise To Marry 700 Wives And Have 300 Concubines? Answer These Questions And Re-read Your Post I Quoted!!!

djdoxxx:
Wisdom Can Never Be Obsolete, And Time Makes It More Valuable And Priceless, Right? ...Good... Would You Call King Solomon In The Bible The Wisest Man That Ever Lived Just Because Of A Simple-Divide-The-Child-Judgement? Does It Rank Among The First 1000 Wisest Judgement Today? Is It Wise To Marry 700 Wives And Have 300 Concubines? Answer These Questions And Re-read Your Post I Quoted!!!

***shakes head pitifully at the wannabe pundit and ignores him***

SonOfEl:


***shakes head pitifully at the wannabe pundit and ignores him***

Take It Easy...Is Your Head Still Paining You?

SonOfEl:


***shakes head pitifully at the wannabe pundit and ignores him***

Take It Easy...Is Your Head Still Paining You?

@ Antiparticle. . .
A few words please.

Are you there?

I'm here What's up brother?

DeepSight:

@ Antiparticle. . .
A few words please.

Are you there?

Antiparticle:
I'm here What's up brother?

Very well. I read your first post on this thread and was intrigued at what you turned out. Aside from reading a few other posts on the first page though, I must confess I have not read much else on the thread which is well over ten pages now. Therefore pardon me if a lot has passed me by: I would like to snack on some of the thoughts that you laid on.

Let me first say that there are few posts I have seen on this board that are as balanced, measured and well delivered as that which I read in your first, and that is a pleasure indeed. All in all I cannot find anything to disagree with, and to a large extent (not to a full extent) what you have articulated embodies my worldview. That world view has generally been Deist - which you appear to be some variant of to some minor extent, however I for a long time preferred to refer to my thoughts as rational (or empirical) and intuitive deism. Rational, because the physical world and the laws of logic rationally suggest intelligent stimulation as well as intent or purpose - and intuitive because there rests within man the capacity to intuitively perceive that which the material intellect may not. There are many reasons to more than reasonably say this.

However here is the comment of yours I wanted to speak with you on. you said:

I love @menesheh's post that "[God] should know we are intellectually honest with our position as atheist. He should know that we are trying so hard to distinguish between facts and fantasy, and that the method and link he established for communicating with us is so vague and lack evidence and justifications."

I wholly disagree with this statement of yours for these reasons:

1. When you say that you like the post which says that [I paraphrase] "God should know that the atheist is being intellectually honest" - This infers that (a) God is to be sensed by the intellect only and (b) God is of the same dimension of the intellect so as to be sensed by it in the first place. I say to you that neither are true, and both - even from either side of the theistic or atheistic divide - are logical contradictions.

2. When it is said that the method or link established for communicating with God is vague - I disagree - as it is clear and rather abundantly obvious. It rests within every soul as clear as day light.

3. When it is said that it lacks evidence or justification I find this statement to be such as a man who breathes air and says that there is no evidence of air.

I say that the laws of physics as we know them, and the very existence of the universe, and most importantly the existence of living things, are manifest and incontrovertible evidence of the existence of GOD.

In saying these things, let me clarify that I am not religious so you do not need to revert in terms of rebutting any Abrahamic or other suppositions - although it must be said that all the old traditions contain many snippets of the eternal truth.

What are your thoughts?

Thanks for the commentary bros. I understand that the extent of my knowledge is limited and I thus try to be as intellectually honest as possible.

DeepSight:

However here is the comment of yours I wanted to speak with you on. you said:
I wholly disagree with this statement of yours for these reasons:

1. When you say that you like the post which says that [I paraphrase] "God should know that the atheist is being intellectually honest" - This infers that (a) God is to be sensed by the intellect only and (b) God is of the same dimension of the intellect so as to be sensed by it in the first place. I say to you that neither are true, and both - even from either side of the theistic or atheistic divide - are logical contradictions.

Bros, if god(s) exist, the burden of proof is on it/them to reveal itself/themselves to me. The burden of proof is not on me to assign "God" to things I can't accurately perceive. Intellect is a more organized and complex form of fundamental human rationality; humans are fundamentally rational beings therefore I don't know any other foolproof way to perceive god(s). By "fundamental human rationality", I am referring to the human ability to discern truth at the most basic level; the survival of the human species when we had newly become homo sapiens hinged on our ability to fundamentally discern between things that could kill us and things that couldn't... e.g. discerning between a rope and a snake, or between a pet cat and a tiger, etc... the ability to fundamentally discern rational truths at the most basic level is one of the traits that ensured our survival as a species. I don't know any other way to discern truth outside of using both my fundamental rationality and intellect.

Outside of the rational and empirical, I don't have any other foolproof (i.e. reproducible and repeatable) way to sense the existence of god(s). Maybe you do (if so please share), but I don't. Also, yes if god(s) exist, I agree that it/they could exist outside the intellectual realm... however it is incumbent on this/these god(s) to reveal itself/themselves to me through avenues that my fundamentally empirical & rational self can discern.

DeepSight:
2. When it is said that the method or link established for communicating with God is vague - I disagree - as it is clear and rather abundantly obvious. It rests within every soul as clear as day light.

Your claim that it rests within every soul is a large logical leap. How is it clear? Based on what is it clear?

DeepSight:
3. When it is said that it lacks evidence or justification I find this statement to be such as a man who breathes air and says that there is no evidence of air.

Another logical leap. A man breathing air is not a good analogy because there is a preponderance of consistent and reproducible and repeatable evidence that humans breathe air. What is the consistent and reproducible and repeatable evidence that god(s) exist? Note: this evidence must not be a god-in-the-gaps extrapolation.

DeepSight:
I say that the laws of physics as we know them, and the very existence of the universe, and most importantly the existence of living things, are manifest and incontrovertible evidence of the existence of GOD.

This is a god-in-the-gaps extrapolation.

DeepSight:
In saying these things, let me clarify that I am not religious so you do not need to revert in terms of rebutting any Abrahamic or other suppositions - although it must be said that all the old traditions contain many snippets of the eternal truth.

I understand. There are too many things I don't know as well. Yet, I am not willing to throw the baby away with the bath water and say that there's nothing good about religion... as I wrote in my one of my old posts, my issue with religion is when it stunts humanity. But regardless, I have zero evidence to suggest that any religion is a pointer to the existence of true god(s). Absolutely zero evidence whatsoever.

These are my thoughts.

Excellent brother ^^^ Will revert later in the day. Few thoughts on yours.
Many thanks for the time.

Antiparticle:
Thanks for the commentary bros. I understand that the extent of my knowledge is limited and I thus try to be as intellectually honest as possible.

While that is appreciated, this is not just a matter for intellectual honesty, it is also - and more cardinally - a matter for spiritual honesty.

Bros, if god(s) exist, the burden of proof is on it/them to reveal itself/themselves to me.

Have you really examined this statement carefully?

1. What exactly do you think you are?
2. Are you hidden from yourself?
3. Is there a burden of proof on yourself to reveal yourself to you?
4. If so why?

humans are fundamentally rational beings

No my friend, humans are fundamentally spiritual and intuitive beings.
Look around the world and tell me where in human society you see rationality as the be all and end all.

I test you yourself to claim that your deepest desires are rational.
Are they?

Your claim that it rests within every soul is a large logical leap. How is it clear? Based on what is it clear?

How is it a large logical leap? What are you? What causes your thoughts, your emotions, your ambitions, your ideas, your ideals, your ethics, your values, your sensitivities, your proclivities, your wonders, your dreams, your you. . . . . . .?

Another logical leap. A man breathing air is not a good analogy because there is a preponderance of consistent and reproducible and repeatable evidence that humans breathe air.

Excellent - now understand carefully - There is also a preponderance of consistent and reproducible and repeatable evidence that life only comes from pre-existing life. Louis Pasteur yet to be dis-proven. Care to take that up? Spontaneous generation? Primordial soup? Go on, let's go there. But think carefully first.

I have said a few things above and not responded to everything you have written.
Please let me know your thoughts and we can proceed thence.
In a hurry now.
Tata.

DeepSight:



However here is the comment of yours I wanted to speak with you on. you said:



I wholly disagree with this statement of yours for these reasons:

1. When you say that you like the post which says that [I paraphrase] "God should know that the atheist is being intellectually honest" - This infers that (a) God is to be sensed by the intellect only and (b) God is of the same dimension of the intellect so as to be sensed by it in the first place. I say to you that neither are true, and both - even from either side of the theistic or atheistic divide - are logical contradictions.

What's your beef there. We don't believe in so many other things not only god. The reasons applicable to the cause of my disbelief in those other things is same reasons i disbelief in such god. Lack of evidence.

2. When it is said that the method or link established for communicating with God is vague - I disagree - as it is clear and rather abundantly obvious. It rests within every soul as clear as day light.

I said vague. We don't see god, i can't communicate with him/she, he choose to pass such important information for the world to believe in him via text and the whole miracle, dreams, personal experience, communication claims are vague. You can't explain anything but just guessing. You actually know what am talking about when i said that the links for communication between us and him doesn't worth it against such mind boggling claims. Extraordinary claim require extraordinary evidence. All is vague vague vague.

3. When it is said that it lacks evidence or justification I find this statement to be such as a man who breathes air and says that there is no evidence of air.

That makes you naive to how evidence and proof works. The nature of evidence. Confirmation bias

I say that the laws of physics as we know them, and the very existence of the universe, and most importantly the existence of living things, are manifest and incontrovertible evidence of the existence of GOD.

It isn't. You must first of all, demonstrate that such authority exist before you can know whether or not to labour what it can or cannot do.

^^^ Someone like you would probably require God to physically appear as a human being and give you a handshake before you believe it exists.
Funny Guy.
Have a nice life.

DeepSight:
^^^ Someone like you would probably require God to physically appear as human being and give you a handshake before you believe it exists.
Funny Guy.
Have a nice life.

Would that be much to ask?

If jesus could appear to thomas, after witnessing -first hand the biblical narration of Jesus miracles and wonders could doubt his resurrection, I mean!!! How much more him, me, we, us.

keenn:



Would that be much to ask?

If jesus could appear to thomas, after witnessing -first hand the biblical narration of Jesus miracles and wonders could doubt his resurrection, I mean!!! How much more him, me, we, us.

Take responsibility.
What if Jesus Never existed?
What if its a tall tale?

What then would you make of your existence?

Do you believe that you are a random product of a random existence that comes from no where and leads no where - OR - Do you believe that there is purpose in your life?

DeepSight:
While that is appreciated, this is not just a matter for intellectual honesty, it is also - and more cardinally - a matter for spiritual honesty.

Spiritual honesty? I don't even know what you mean by the word "spiritual". You'll have to define such terms before using them.

DeepSight:

Have you really examined this statement carefully?
1. What exactly do you think you are?
2. Are you hidden from yourself?
3. Is there a burden of proof on yourself to reveal yourself to you?
4. If so why?

These sound like rhetorical questions. I'm not willing to engage in a public psychoanalysis of myself (maybe on a different thread, but not this one)... I however am down to have a circumscribed conversation about theism and religion.

DeepSight:
No my friend, humans are fundamentally spiritual and intuitive beings.
Look around the world and tell me where in human society you see rationality as the be all and end all.
I test you yourself to claim that your deepest desires are rational.
Are they?

I already defined what I meant by fundamentally rational. My statement is that humans are fundamentally rational & empirical at the most basic level... i.e. distinguishing between a rope and a snake, etc. I didn't say that all humans have complex levels of rationality or intellect. Please read my writings carefully before you respond.

DeepSight:
How is it a large logical leap? What are you? What causes your thoughts, your emotions, your ambitions, your ideas, your ideals, your ethics, your values, your sensitivities, your proclivities, your wonders, your dreams, your you. . . . . . .?

Ok, glad to hear that god(s) is/are the reason for your thoughts, emotions, etc. But that you guess it is so does not mean it is true. Also, you need to define this "God" that you keep referring to.

DeepSight:
Excellent - now understand carefully - There is also a preponderance of consistent and reproducible and repeatable evidence that life only comes from pre-existing life. Louis Pasteur yet to be dis-proven. Care to take that up? Spontaneous generation? Primordial soup? Go on, let's go there. But think carefully first.

I'm not interested in having an infinitely long debate. Even if life only comes from pre-existing life, I am not one to quickly invoke a god(s)-in-the-gaps argument as you are currently doing. I have never said on this thread that there is/are no god(s)/creator(s) yet I won't invoke god(s)-in-the-gaps arguments when I'm stumped about the philosophical meaning and origins of life. You are welcome to keep trying to convince me about this/these eternal god(s), but I'm sorry I won't be convinced based on arbitrary guesses.

Antiparticle:
@bstringz
I don't owe you an explanation about my search for God bro. But let me start here.

I can tell you that I was born into a Christian family... and for the past decade and half (up until sometime within the past year) I was a very strong and genuine Christian. I really tried hard to follow God. But certain things that happened in my life and in the life of people I loved caused me to start asking critical questions a few years ago about the role of God in the empirical world. I became deeply curious about if God was indeed interventionist, if he was an active observer, or if he was just a passive observer in the world. I was deeply and genuinely Christian during this time... I spoke to other solid believers and leaders of my fellowships/church (whom I mostly still respect) about it and we would think it through together. I also read lots of books by deep-thinking Christian theologians. Sometimes I would get satisfactory answers, sometimes I wouldn't. But I didn't make a big deal of the lack of answers. I also, as you would expect of any genuine Christian, prayed a lot for God to help me work through these things.

For at least seven of the last ten years that I was a passionate Christian, I had all these doubts. Yet, they didn't change the extent of my belief in God as I had strong "unshakeable" faith. The straw that gradually began to break the camel's back was when I started doing my own readings on world history and apologetic theology over the past three years. Through these past three years I prayed and prayed that God should reveal "Himself" to me. During these years, I also started to become sensitive to the contradictions and homicidal/genocidal/infanticidal acts by God in the Bible... yet I explained them away so I could preserve my faith. I still hadn't lost my faith.

(...)

Abriged Version

Did YOU write this beautiful piece?

Lol thanks for quoting the abridged version. That writeup was long! Don't know what I was thinking lol.
Yeah, na me write am o. Na my story. I have a strong aversion for plagiarism.

Mindfulness:
Did YOU write this beautiful piece?

Antiparticle:
Lol thanks for quoting the abridged version. That writeup was long! Don't know what I was thinking lol.
Yeah, na me write am o. Na my story. I have a strong aversion for plagiarism.

I really appreciate this piece of writing. Thanks for sharing. I enjoyed reading it a lot. It is an informative, interesting, well organized and developed piece of writing, which combines the results of a journey into the world of research with the results of a journey called human experience. Thank you!

There is one thing I do not get though. When you decided to give up Christianity, why did it automatically include the belief in God into this?

Mindfulness:
I really appreciate this piece of writing. Thanks for sharing. I enjoyed reading it a lot. It is an informative, interesting, well organized and developed piece of writing, which combines the results of a journey into the world of research with the results of a journey called human experience. Thank you!

You are welcome bro. Thank you as well.

Mindfulness:
There is one thing I do not get though. When you decided to give up Christianity, why did it automatically include the belief in God?

Well, I don't have any evidence that god(s) exist anymore so I can't believe in something whose existence I have no clue about. But if god(s) or creator(s) exist and want me to believe, then I'm all ears... it/they just need to show me evidence. It's that straightforward. What is your position? Pantheist?

Antiparticle:
You are welcome bro. Thank you as well.

You are welcome. I see talent here. Use it!

Well, I don't have any evidence that god(s) exist anymore so I can't believe in something whose existence I have no clue about. But if god(s) or creator(s) exist and want me to believe, then I'm all ears... it/they just need to show me evidence. It's that straightforward.

Well, have you EVER had any evidence that God exists?
And if you had evidence, would there be space for faith?

What is your position? Pantheist?

I do not belong to any school of thought. I try to be free of dogmas because I like to be and remain open-minded but my personal beliefs come pretty close to the ideas of Pantheism, I guess.

Mindfulness:
You are welcome. I see talent here. Use it!

Wow thanks o. I did consider writing non-fiction and I'd love to do so sometime in the future.

Mindfulness:
Well, have you EVER had any evidence that God exists? And if you had evidence, would there be space for faith?

I have never had any evidence that a just interventionist personal God exists. Perhaps god(s) exist, but my temporary conclusion is that if it/they exist, the god(s) don't care about its/their creation. Also, I don't see the point of faith... "faith" in my mind is now synonymous to "wish".

Mindfulness:
I do not belong to any school of thought. I try to be free of dogmas because I like to be and remain open-minded but my personal beliefs come pretty close to the ideas of Pantheism, I guess.

Nice one. Currently I'm not exactly sure how to categorize myself. I just know that I have no evidence of a just interventionist personal God.

Antiparticle:
Wow thanks o. I did consider writing non-fiction and I'd love to do so sometime in the future.

Why in future and not now?

I have never had any evidence that a just interventionist personal God exists. Perhaps god(s) exist, but my temporary conclusion is that if it/they exist, the god(s) don't care about its/their creation.

What makes you think he/she/they don't care?

Nice one. Currently I'm not exactly sure how to categorize myself. I just know that I have no evidence of a just interventionist personal God.

Nobody does.

What is a "personal God"? People are throwing around this term but I don't know what it means to them.

DeepSight:


Take responsibility.
What if Jesus Never existed?
What if its a tall tale?

What then would you make of your existence?

Do you believe that you are a random product of a random existence that comes from no where and leads no where - OR - Do you believe that there is purpose in your life?

There might have been a purpose/plan/intent about human existence from the onset.

Nevertheless, the purpose of man aint grater than the quest for daily bread, shelter, security and mate. Anything grater than this is just undue exaggeration/embellishment of inconsequential factors

Mindfulness:
Why in future and not now?

Thank you for saying this. Outside of work, I have a number of family projects I'm currently working on so I'm trying to take life one day at a time. Ideally, I first want to write a history book about my family (hopefully up to my great great grandparents) before embarking on other works.

Mindfulness:
What makes you think he/she/they don't care?

Maybe it/they care actually, but not enough to let me know that it/they care.

Mindfulness:
What is a "personal God"? People are throwing around this term but I don't know what it means to them.

I use that term loosely to refer to god(s) with whom a human can build a mutual relationship. Or god(s) that claim it/they want to have a relationship with individual humans.